Also see: Two-Way Dependency/Dependent Designation


The juice of all this, imo, is that, "when in/as seeming phenomena, the ultimate is always conceptual" and as the ultimate "all phenomena is empty".

Just a fleeting feeling I had...

Me to GG:

Thrangu Rinpoche:

"The emptiness of all things, however, is not nothingness; it is interdependence. It is the unity or sameness of the appearance of something and its emptiness, the unity or sameness of the lucidity or vividness of something and its emptiness. When you look at your mind, you do not find anything, and the reason you do not find anything is that the mind's nature is emptiness. But the mind is not just empty; while being empty, its characteristic, its defining characteristic, is awareness. Therefore, when the mind is described, terminology like the unity of cognitive lucidity and emptiness or the unity of awareness and emptiness is used. Unity here is meant very strongly. The nature of awareness is emptiness, and the nature of the mind's emptiness is awareness."

"Even though it is, in a sense, supplemental to look at the mind within stillness, looking at the mind within appearances is presented here somewhat elaborately, which means it is divided into four practices and four presentations: seeing appearances as mind; seeing mind as emptiness; seeing emptiness as spontaneous presence; and seeing spontaneous presence as self-liberation."

- The Ninth Karmapa's Ocean of Definitive Meaning by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

Therefore free from the extremes of eternalism and nihilism.


"If you regard things as existent by virtue of (a reified) intrinsic reality, you thereby regard them as bereft of causes and conditions. And thereby you are condemning effects, causes, agents, actions, activities, originations, cessations, and even fruitional goals. Whatever is relativity we proclaim that emptiness. Nothing whatsoever is found which is not relativistically originated. Therefore, nothing whatsoever is found which is not empty. So if all things were not empty, there would be no origination and no destruction."

H.H. The 8th Karmapa, Mikyo Dorje:
"From the perspective of both analysis and the seeing of noble ones, mere dependent origination and also the completely releasing liberation that is based on it are inexpressible as something other than perfect nirvana. Hence, neither something to be attained, nor the means to attain it, nor any attainment are established.
However, at this point, it is also not said that “these do not exist.” Nor are they expressed as being both existent and nonexistent or being neither.
Thus, without thinking or apprehending anything and without any effort, one evenly rests in just this uncontrived and relaxed great ease in which there is nothing to do. Then, no matter what inner and outer appearances of the six collections [of consciousness] and their objects (the bearers of the nature [of phenomena]) emerge, through discriminating supreme knowledge and mindfulness, all of them are realized as their true nature, the natural state of emptiness.
Just like snowflakes falling [and melting] on a hot stone, one looks straight at appearance-emptiness, sound-emptiness, and awareness-emptiness and is directly released."


"When one says mind or basis or clarity or presence, it is only conventional expression. If we mistaken there is anything to grasp or anything beyond or ineffable, it is immediately mistaken. However if we just stop there it becomes nihilistic. Because the purpose is to allow one to clearly and fully realize, feel and taste the moment to moment of manifestation. To clearly see and understand the nature of what is felt, seen, taste, heard and thought. It is not only no seer, but in the seen just the seen. However in the seen just the seen can be seen as a form of focus shamatha concentration. Therefore I always say it is the natural state."

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