• Yuan Yin Lao Ren left behind tens of thousands of sarira (colorful relics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aar%C4%ABra)
     
    Another Chinese teacher clearly expressing anatta.
    John Tan, “Yes very good. But difficult to translate 境”
    Excerpt:
    良由真心如鏡光,一切色、聲、香、味、觸、法,皆如鏡中所現之影。凡夫愚昧無知,背鏡光而取影,造業受報,生死不了;二乘聖人,雖不著塵境,但又背鏡影而住光,以有所住,又成法妄,只了分段生死,不了變易生死;一乘學者,悟透佛法、世法,不即鏡影,亦不離鏡影。以一切影像皆是鏡光所成,鏡即是影,影即是鏡;離鏡無影,離影無鏡,既不可背鏡住影,亦無須離影求鏡。既深知影鏡皆無所住,當能心無愛憎之情,境無取捨之住。
    故學者不必怕妄,但深契一乘玄旨,於境無取無捨,無喜無瞋,則妄自除矣。
    .....
    第七句:「問心何來?因境而起。」
    「心本無生因境有!」這是毘舍浮佛的名言?我人之心—即思想本來沒有因對境而生起影像,執著不捨,才生起妄想,這就是心。這個心是根—心、塵—境集合而生起的,所以叫作「集起為心」,它是六塵落謝的影子,純屬虛幻,無有實體。佛經中所說的「一切唯心造」和「三界唯心,萬法唯識」的「心」字就是指這個由客觀外境反映而生起的虛幻影像心,所以它也是外境,也是客體,而且也不離物質,不可把它看作主觀的心!當作主宰世界的真神而寶貝它。我們做功夫,既要不著森羅萬象的外境!更要把這幻影妄心銷盡。所謂內而身心,外而世界一起銷殞,妙明真心,方才現前。反是,把這虛幻心當作主觀實體!真性就被掩沒不見了。因之!我們所說「一切唯心造」的「心」字!是把它視作被消滅的客觀對象來處理的!並非說它是萬物的主宰者,這要請廣大學佛者搞清楚,不要誤會才好!
    第八句:「境亦不有!同屬幻影!」
    經云:「心不自心,因境故心;境不自境,因心故境。」這就把心與境,境與心的相因相成的關係說得一清二楚。心既因境而有,境亦不能離心獨立,因境係因緣生!無有自體。比如鏡影!雖有萬別千差之相,如無鏡光,影不能現;境亦如是,無心境無成,即或有美景佳境,無心領受鑒賞,有亦同無。以境不自境,不自謂為美妙勝境也。心與境既相對而生,離一即無,則境與心,皆非真實,同屬虛幻之影明矣。或許有人要說,娑婆世界所有景物,皆我人共業所招的業果,假而非真,謂為幻影,可以說得;至於西方極樂世界,乃阿彌陀佛多生歷劫精勤修行,為廣大眾生造福,積累功德,緣熟果滿所感之真境,似不可謂為幻影。
    關於這一點,確應好好討論一下。因為現在修淨土的人很多,如不把淨土真相搞清楚,不明白淨土究竟是怎麼一回事,修行起來不易得力,更談不到深證念佛三昧,上品往生了。
    首先就相來說,娑婆是業障眾生造業所招的五濁惡果,而極樂是彌陀願滿德圓所感的清淨世界,故一是穢濁醜惡,一是美妙莊嚴,大有區別。但土從心生,離心無土,離土無心;心即土,土即心。故經云:「欲淨其土,先淨其心!」「隨其心淨,即佛土淨!」是教我人識得淨土為何物,好下手用功證取,以免徒取外相,流入歧途。
    既然土外無心,心外無土,心土不相分離,而一真法界—真心—又在聖不增,在凡不減,則極樂淨土係從淨妙真心中流出,而娑婆穢土離清淨佛性亦何可得?以是,極樂雖淨,娑婆雖穢,同是真心中顯現之影像,猶如鏡光中顯現之影,雖有形式之殊,淨穢之別,但皆如水中之月,了不可得,絕不可因極樂為淨月影而妄謂可得也。
    次就真假來說,『金剛經』謂:「凡所有相,皆是虛妄!」以相如上文所說皆鏡中之影了不可得,故假而非真,絕不因淨、穢、美、醜而分真假,所以極樂國土,雖盡善盡美,亦是虛妄之相。進一步來說,說真道假,皆是我等凡夫執相立名,妄加分別之過。以所謂真假,乃相對而有,離一即不可得,故皆假名。真假既相對而有,則說真之時,假即在其中矣;說假之時,真亦在其中矣。諺云:「假作真時真亦假。」於無真假處妄作真假,寧非庸人自擾?
    復次,鏡必顯影故,有真心不無假相,無相無從顯示真心,故『彌陀經』宣示極樂莊嚴;影不離鏡故,有假相不無真心,無真心無從成其假相,故『金剛經』顯示妙體,一法不立。性相既不相離,密切有如水之與波,故見相即見性,無有一物可當情,故謂全假即真;見性不廢相,圓成差別妙用,故謂全真即假。真假假真,全是我人妄心作祟,實則靈妙真心,一物不立,有何真假之可言哉?
    故如說極樂世界是真,則娑婆世界亦真;如謂娑婆係假,則極樂亦假。故淨穢二土皆從一真法界中流出,絕不可因在纏凡夫,迷昧真心,造業受報,而否定其靈性,謂所現穢土業相,非從佛性真心中宣流也。
    再說極樂世界,有四土九品之別。最下層凡聖同居土,雖有種種莊嚴妙相,但方便有餘土與實報莊嚴土,則土愈高而相愈清淡妙微,至最高常寂光淨土,則更淨妙微明而一相不立。雖一相不立,亦不出上述三土之外。故執相修行者,只得下品往生,空相見性者,始能往生上品。以是真修淨土者,既不執相,亦不廢相,只一切放下,端身正坐,誠心敬意,執持名號,以呼吸為數珠,晝夜六時,綿綿密密念去,久久不懈,自得念佛三昧。到那時,不等命終生西,已早預上品蓮位矣。
    book853.com
    淺釋_『悟心銘』淺釋 元音老人著
    2 Comments

    Comments


    2008, John Tan:
    (12:34 AM) Thusness: 元音老人
    (12:38 AM) Thusness: Too bad. He is the level of practitioner I m looking for.
    (12:38 AM) Thusness: But dead liao.
     
    (12:48 AM) Thusness: One that broke the stage 5 and understand 6 but no philosophical concepts
    (12:48 AM) Thusness: Direct experience
     
    (12:50 AM) Thusness: he is the sort of practitioner I seek for.
    (12:50 AM) Thusness: Self liberation

    • Reply
    • 1h
    • Edited

 

34We are born anew only when we accept this actual world which is so miserable, imperfect, and rotten as the most perfect, irreplaceable, and infinite one.

...
It was onthe fifth night of the intensive training session in December, when I was 25 years old, that I sat in a graveyard behind the temple, uttering "Muh, Muh, Muh," in a very loud voice. As I was engaged in the whole-hearted utterance of "Muh", I discovered that heaven and earth became "Muh" altogether. When I uttered "Muh" I discovered that the whole universe became "Muh". When I uttered "Uhh", the whole universe became "Uhh". All things became settled in that experience. As you are, so is the universe. The whole universe responds to your act. When you go to the bathroom, you have the universe of the bathroom. You have no other universe than this. There is no origin and no occasion for the creation of a new universe other than this place and this occasion. Between heaven and earth there is only this event. We stand at the origin of the creation of the universe. There is nothing less and nothing more than this.
...
The realization of life is nothing more than the realization of death. Doing something with all your heart and forgetting yourself in it is the ultimate truth.
...
Zazen, running, conversation, reading, considering (and taking responsibility for) the problems of the world, having dinner or taking a bath... whatever you are doing now -that is the daily reality for you: do not try to escape it.Each thing we are doing or facing now is our true reality, our true encounter. This is exactly the point. Whatever you are doing now, do it. Just do it. Don't avoid it. If you escape from this, you are always escaping towards some future, from the cradle to the grave.
...
When you have lunch, you should just have lunch. Otherwise you are not living in this world.
...
The fixed state is one where there is no new death, no new birth, in other words, just "habit". As long as one is alive, one should be continually dying and being born in every encounter, so that the enlightened life flows forever. Every sitting is the realization of a new world which one is seeing for the very first time
...
We often say, "See you again soon", or, "I practise zazen twice a day". But is it the same zazen? Can we repeat anything a second time? Will you be the same "You" tomorrow or next year? Unconsciously we believe that our lives are full of repetitions, but in fact nothing is ever the same: it is impossible to repeat anything. Each time, out of necessity, our practice is utterly new and different.
...
63Whatever I may do -such as Zen, yoga, or living my daily life -I do whole-heartedly, by throwing myself away and letting life take its natural course completely. But if my manner becomes habitual or self-righteous, then anything I do will be wrong. It will be good for nothing.This advice is helpful to remind us always to make a fresh start, no matter how many years we have been practising. This is one of the fundamental admonitions we should keep in mind each day,whether we are at the top of the mountain or the bottom of the sea.
...
83I am always being supported by you, by air, by water, by the sunlight, by people who live all over the world, by clothes, by soil, by the earth, stars, time, and space. In the end, the whole cosmos is allowing me to exist. You are also being supported by everything else in the universe. Therefore, we cannot consider ourselves to be separate; we cannot exist independently of any other thing.
...
Zen is something to be practised in our daily life as air is breathed by anyone at any time. Zen is nothing but the total living of this encounter at each moment by throwing away our preconceived ideas and our plans. In other words, the ego disappears and one is enlivened here, doing totally only one thing at this very moment, with no relation to the self-consciousness of the mind. This can be done and is done by anyone who is willing to do it unconditionally. This is the deepest root and foundation of human life: it has nothing to do with following a religious sect.
...
The direct experience of THIS is exactly experienced in me (us) beyond both THIS IS IT and THIS IS NOT! Each Now, THIS should be experienced anew beyond both the habitual, fixed “THIS is IT” and the indispensable negating “THIS is NOT!”. THIS beyond THIS and NOT!
JUST THIS in our daily world is too boring, so nothing special. Everywhere we naturally have THIS, wherever we are, wherever we go . We are usually not even conscious of it at all. We are already in the ocean of THIS without fail, without paying attention. Therefore, everything is habitually going on, even THIS. Once we (cosmos) are ignited by the fire of THIS awareness by/with THIS experience, suddenly the whole Univerself (you, me, our families, all living beings) are
awakening/actualizing/embodying/opening/flowering/laughing as THIS active/mindful/awakening NOW.
As this experience, the new universe is born breath-by-breath in the midst of our muddy world reality. This is our One_Experience. Our daily chaotic busy way need not be boring (and blind) if we discover THIS New habit-less awakening of Now-universe even in the midst of our messy city lives. Depending on ourselves, our sensitivity, each of our daily encounters is ever-habitual, ever-boring, OR This encounter is awakening, wondrous, opening, unknown, New-Life-being-born, New–cosmos.
“All is one, one is all”, my master’s master replied to me once, and his words are only understood when we are JUST THIS.“ When we are JUST THIS” means we discover/experience THIS and also we are discovered/experienced by THIS inseparably at the same time (as one Univerself-function).
THIS is ever-deepening Life as each Now is being born so fresh at/by unknown concrete encounters, for example, This_One_breathing_awareness, being called by someone, meeting with a street cat, or.... We do not need anything else at all!
(Hōgen Yamahata)
- Zen Master Hogen (I sat at a Soto Zen center of his lineage regularly when I was studying in Brisbane)

 While trying to find the excerpt on John Tan's breakthrough this year on subtle cognitive obscurations, found some random quotes on what is crucial after anatta:
Tagging Anurag Jain
 due to his anatta breakthrough yesterday.

(John Tan commented on Anurag's messages to me: Quite good. However realization and experiences still need to refine with view.  First there must b thorough experience and realization that there is no need to sink back to any source at all, that unknowing falling back is a karmic tendency that will be clearly seen as a hindrance to full openness and total effortlessness.

Second, one must understand that the very idea of "essence" is learnt. The mind was led to a hypnotic belief that makes it see, understand and analyse in certain way -- the inherent and dualistic way.

Third, post cessation of conceptualities (the 3 points I told)?)

[15/3/20, 7:28:58 PM] John Tan: Yes seems so.  When u have that insight, it has to b an experiential insight...such insight cannot be theoretical as experiences turned foreground...in this breakthrough.  Awareness disappears as a mental constructs into the vividness of sounds, colors, smells, thoughts...etc.  still one needs to look deeply into mmk  [Mūlamadhyamakakārikā] to see how to deconstruct mental constructs and conventions of cause, effect, arising, existence, non-existence ...etc.  In order to understand these ongoing vivid appearances free from the conventional extremes...not just non-conceptuality.
....
[1/1/18, 1:53:12 AM] John Tan: Mr. J is exactly what I meant by not seeing dependent arising in anatta.
[1/1/18, 1:53:15 AM] John Tan: Lol
[1/1/18, 1:56:36 AM] Soh: Lol
[1/1/18, 1:56:41 AM] Soh: I don’t think he sees anatta at all
[1/1/18, 1:56:48 AM] Soh: He is trapped in a background mirror
[1/1/18, 1:56:55 AM] John Tan: Yes
[1/1/18, 1:57:30 AM] John Tan: like phase 4 insights unable to breakthrough at all.  Fully advaita.
[1/1/18, 1:57:32 AM] John Tan: Lol
[1/1/18, 1:58:05 AM] John Tan: Stian and Andre r very good.
[1/1/18, 2:01:29 AM] Soh: Lol
[1/1/18, 2:01:35 AM] Soh: Ic.. Stian and Andre just posted?
[1/1/18, 2:01:51 AM] John Tan: Actually what is the actual taste of their understanding is more crucial.
[1/1/18, 2:02:00 AM] John Tan: Yeah
[1/1/18, 2:27:44 AM] Soh: Oic.. did they talk about actual taste?
[1/1/18, 2:27:58 AM] Soh: I think Mr. J is hindered by the teachers of his tradition
[1/1/18, 2:28:00 AM] John Tan: No
[1/1/18, 2:28:01 AM] Soh: Lol
[1/1/18, 2:28:42 AM] John Tan: I seriously dunno how dzogchen interpreted this way can pass the gate ... Lol
[1/1/18, 2:29:42 AM] John Tan: Anyway that is imo not the essence of the teaching.  Not dzogchen or madyamaka.
[1/1/18, 2:32:34 AM] Soh: Yeah but the masters he quoted, all the authoritative figures seem to be stuck at stage 4 without exceptions
[Update by Soh: The Arcaya Malcolm Smith teachings on Dzogchen that John Tan and I attended this year are great and in line with anatta and emptiness and highly recommended, so if anyone is interested they should attend the next round of teachings - www.zangthal.com. He understands the I AM and substantialist phases, in fact I AM is taught as an initial rigpa [with a different terminology], but it is distinguished from no-self and emptiness insight.]
[1/1/18, 2:32:36 AM] Soh: Lol
[1/1/18, 2:33:05 AM] John Tan: Those he quoted.
[1/1/18, 2:33:09 AM] John Tan: Lol
[1/1/18, 2:33:22 AM] John Tan: I m sure there r others. [Soh: another two Dzogchen teachers clear about anatta and living in India is Yogi Prabodha Jnana and Abhaya Devi Yogini - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/12/a-mirroring-mirror-is-redundant.html ]
[1/1/18, 2:35:25 AM] John Tan: The background has not been full exhausted, there is no genuine experiential insight of anatta.  
[If] Dependent arising [is] not realized, [that is] also not genuine insight of anatta.
.....
[19/6/20, 2:17:18 PM] John Tan: Having insight of anatta is one thing, having insight of DO is another.
[19/6/20, 2:18:13 PM] John Tan: Having deconstruction doesn't mean DO.  Advaita practitioner deconstruct self, but y they did not c DO? That is the question.
[19/6/20, 2:19:25 PM] John Tan: Now, in Tibetan practice, conceptualization is as if the root of all evils but is it?  U have to have ur own insights and experiences to authenticate the truth of it.
[19/6/20, 2:21:46 PM] John Tan: Y is view important when u need deconstruction?  So understand the purpose of deconstruction and understand the view when u have direct insight of anatta to help u.
[19/6/20, 2:28:37 PM] Soh: Advaita subsume everything into one. So their deconstruction leads to collapsing into undifferentiated oneness which has the characteristics of permanence and Self
Whereas buddhism deconstructs Self and sees self and all phenomena like chariot.. so it collapses oneness into multiplicity and then the nature of multiplicity is revealed to be dependent origination and non arising, neither one or many, etc
[19/6/20, 2:29:56 PM] John Tan: Subsuming into one, y?
[19/6/20, 2:31:53 PM] John Tan: If deconstruction frees one from conceptualizing, how is it that there's subsuming?
[19/6/20, 2:39:59 PM] Soh: Because after I AM the I AM appears like ultimate reality. So it does not occur to them that the view of subjectivity can be seen through via insight
[19/6/20, 2:41:02 PM] Soh: They do not even see subjectivity as a view
[19/6/20, 2:41:06 PM] Soh: To then its the absolute
[19/6/20, 2:41:11 PM] Soh: Them*
[19/6/20, 2:43:19 PM] John Tan: Therefore this not seeing is the root of ignorance.  So don't see mind or not mind doesn't imply insight.
[19/6/20, 2:43:37 PM] Soh: Ic..
[19/6/20, 2:44:39 PM] Soh: But for me all observable phenomena are awareness and there is no awareness besides observable phenomena, this is from direct insight
[19/6/20, 2:48:00 PM] John Tan: When one over emphasizes non conceptualization as the ultimate goal, he is letting karmic blind spots sway his understanding.
[19/6/20, 2:48:23 PM] Soh: Oic..
[19/6/20, 2:52:24 PM] John Tan: So as I have said many times, despite having experiences turned effortlessly non-dual and non conceptual post anatta, I m not into no view.  Rather I m into direct authenication of right view.
[19/6/20, 2:54:48 PM] Soh: Ic..
[19/6/20, 2:58:40 PM] John Tan: This however is not promoting conceptualization  over non- conceptual experience.  They support each other.
[19/6/20, 3:00:11 PM] John Tan: Why do I ask u what is the purpose of deconstruction?  U need to know what exactly does deconstruction achieve.  U have deconstructed mind, body and divisions...so what is this decosntruction about and what is the purpose?
[19/6/20, 3:02:32 PM] Soh: Experience presence without boundary and artificial separation or fragmentation
[19/6/20, 3:08:22 PM] John Tan: Yes.  To access directly presence without intermediary.  Having direct access does not mean wisdom and insight will arise.  But when u r able to to access the state of non-dual presence, u r able to authenticate the view so that u insight may arise.
[19/6/20, 3:09:26 PM] Soh: Ic..
[19/6/20, 3:12:00 PM] John Tan: So the view, the experience and the realization.
.....
[16/12/16, 12:52:51 AM] John Tan: For Ren Cheng, u should tell them abt right view.
[16/12/16, 12:54:29 AM] John Tan: When u hit a bell, how did the sound arise? Where did it go?
[16/12/16, 12:54:58 AM] John Tan: Is there arising or can u say there is arising?
[16/12/16, 12:55:25 AM] John Tan: This is crucial and key to understanding of emptiness and releasing.
[16/12/16, 12:56:36 AM] John Tan: Why whatever arises in dependence due to conditions cannot b said to arise Nor cease? And that is the middle path.
[16/12/16, 12:57:43 AM] John Tan: Neither arises, Nor not arises.
Neither ceases, Nor not ceases.
Neither existence Nor non existence.
Neither affirmation Nor negation.
[16/12/16, 12:58:20 AM] John Tan: And these must b understood the right way with right view.
[16/12/16, 12:58:36 AM] John Tan: Not for beautiful language
[16/12/16, 12:59:24 AM] John Tan: If consciousness ceases this moment can u say it ceases?
[16/12/16, 12:59:57 AM] John Tan: If this thought ceases can u say it ceases?
[16/12/16, 1:00:05 AM] Soh: No, nothing arose or cease like a city mirage on horizon
[16/12/16, 1:00:32 AM] John Tan: But y it cannot b said to cease?
[16/12/16, 1:00:58 AM] John Tan: I have told u many times u must understand from DO and not just emptiness.
[16/12/16, 1:01:32 AM] John Tan: Because whatever arises do not arise by itself.
[16/12/16, 1:02:04 AM] Soh: Ic..
[16/12/16, 1:02:18 AM] John Tan: Now what did Buddha say?  If there is karma and conditions, can phenomena not manifest?
[16/12/16, 1:03:34 AM] John Tan: If this mind moment ceases, can next mind not arise if conditions r there?
[16/12/16, 1:04:08 AM] Soh: No, mind moment will arise on conditions
[16/12/16, 1:04:35 AM] John Tan: So there is no real cessation
[16/12/16, 1:04:57 AM] John Tan: Yet this mind moment is not the same as next mind moment
[16/12/16, 1:05:16 AM] John Tan: And they cannot b said to b different either
[16/12/16, 1:05:34 AM] John Tan: It cannot b said to have not ceased
[16/12/16, 1:05:48 AM] John Tan: And cannot b said to have ceased.
[16/12/16, 1:06:21 AM] John Tan: As such whatever arises in dependence is non-arisen.
[16/12/16, 1:06:57 AM] John Tan: Then u talk abt the direct experience of mind...
[16/12/16, 1:07:17 AM] John Tan: Of the six entries and exits
[16/12/16, 1:07:39 AM] John Tan: Experience and view
[16/12/16, 1:07:44 AM] John Tan: Get it?
[16/12/16, 1:08:03 AM] Soh: Oic..
[16/12/16, 1:08:46 AM] Soh: So if Nai min call I talk about non arising and d.o. Then about mind in six entries?
[16/12/16, 1:09:15 AM] John Tan: U must first separate direct experience from view
[16/12/16, 1:09:29 AM] John Tan: Talk abt non-dual experience
[16/12/16, 1:09:41 AM] John Tan: How it can b distorted with view
[16/12/16, 1:10:45 AM] John Tan: And from anatta u realise right explanation of the experience should b DO, emptiness and non-arisen.  Not from Essence view.
[16/12/16, 1:10:59 AM] John Tan: And middle path is understood that way.
[16/12/16, 1:11:47 AM] John Tan: There is not creation but not no creation. Middle path is dependent origination.
[16/12/16, 1:12:20 AM] Soh: Oic..
[16/12/16, 1:13:04 AM] John Tan: Because we r so accustomed to essence view, we cannot get use to dependent origination.  We want to use essence view to understand DO.
[16/12/16, 1:14:09 AM] Soh: Ic..
[17/12/16, 8:18:22 AM] John Tan: Have u heard of the forumer krodha in Reddit?
[17/12/16, 8:21:08 AM] Soh: Yes why
[17/12/16, 8:21:10 AM] Soh: He is Kyle
[17/12/16, 8:21:11 AM] Soh: Lol
[17/12/16, 8:21:20 AM] John Tan: Lol
[17/12/16, 8:21:24 AM] John Tan: No wonder
[17/12/16, 8:21:43 AM] John Tan: Seldom do I see such clear view
[17/12/16, 8:22:21 AM] Soh: I see..
[17/12/16, 8:25:11 AM] John Tan: But it is also important to note that arisen is often confused with appearance.  There is ongoing appearance, the nature of appearance is non-arisen.
[17/12/16, 8:32:51 AM] Soh: Ic..
[17/12/16, 9:30:30 AM] John Tan: Also emphasis must b on conditions, that is DO.
[17/12/16, 9:47:17 AM] Soh: Oic..
[17/12/16, 9:48:43 AM] John Tan: That is seldom do we see explanations y becoz of DO, the nature of mind/phenomena is empty and non-arisen.
[17/12/16, 9:50:56 AM] Soh: Ic..
[17/12/16, 9:51:14 AM] John Tan: Or r the articles abt it?
[17/12/16, 9:55:30 AM] Soh: I don't see much about it
[17/12/16, 9:55:41 AM] Soh: Maybe gelug talks about it
[17/12/16, 9:56:34 AM] John Tan: Mmk talks abt it and is everywhere but I can't understand y it is not emphasized that way.
[17/12/16, 9:57:29 AM] John Tan: Many r only interested in one truth, highest.  Emptiness and non-arisen of phenomena.  That is a pity.
[17/12/16, 9:59:21 AM] John Tan: If we do understand emptiness and non-arisen nature of mind and phenomena from the perspective of DO, it is not the right understanding imo.
[17/12/16, 10:02:50 AM] Soh: Oic..
[17/12/16, 11:19:59 PM] John Tan: https://youtu.be/4O2JK_94g3Y
[18/12/16, 8:43:36 AM] John Tan: I mean If we do not understand emptiness and non-arisen nature of mind and phenomena from the perspective of DO, it is not the right understanding imo.
.........
[11/6/20, 12:27:56 AM] John Tan: Without concepts, experience is naturally present and luminous is not exactly true imo.  
We can stop conceptualization or even have many episodes of substained non-conceptual  non-dual or no mind experiences, still intellectual obscurations of seeing entities, entity possessing characteristics, cause and effect, agent and movement...etc continue to haunt us.  Non-analytical cessation is temporary.
So the freedom from conceptualization cannot simply b a stopping of "conceptualization", a clear insight that sees through the emptiness of conventional constructs must arise.
Although the insight results in non-conceptuality, it also recognizes the cause of obstructedness is ignorance that obscures and blinds, not designations and constructs.
When contemplating DO (though conceptual), not only does the sense of self not arise, it replaces self view.  Non-conceptual resting is too a means to an end.  The end is not a non-conceptual luminous state but the complete uprooting of ignorance.
Therefore when dogen rolls the boat in total exertion, there r concepts, designations and conventions but there is no sense of self, no sense of boundaries, no sense of obstructedness between the sky, the boat, the oar and the sea...all inter-penetrate beyond their conventional boundaries into the act of rolling.
...
[24/5/20, 5:04:47 PM] John Tan: But I think need to be very careful not to assume that non-dual of subject/object naturally implies freedom from intellectual obscurations of internal/external, mind/matter.
[24/5/20, 5:07:17 PM] Soh: Oic..
[24/5/20, 5:07:56 PM] Soh: https://cdn.amaravati.org/.../The_Island_-_Ajahn_Amaro...
[24/5/20, 5:08:08 PM] Soh: I also got the hardcopy of this
[24/5/20, 5:08:12 PM] John Tan: Uploaded from scribd
[24/5/20, 5:27:33 PM] Soh: U know yesterday i was listening to ven hui lu
[24/5/20, 5:27:47 PM] Soh: He say early buddhism establish mind phenomena duality
[24/5/20, 5:28:07 PM] Soh: He say its an expedient or something Which is different from mind only level of mahayana realisation
[24/5/20, 5:28:18 PM] Soh: Yet some of these theravadin authors are quite clear
[24/5/20, 5:28:37 PM] Soh: But its true most theravadin teachers fall into establishing duality like dhiramano’s teachers
[24/5/20, 5:29:16 PM] Soh: Even padmasambhava though hinayana is dualistic lol
[24/5/20, 5:29:22 PM] Soh: Thought*
[24/5/20, 5:29:39 PM] John Tan: Yes no self and seeing through background, may not necessarily lead to dissolving of physicality obscuration, even then there r different level of clearing.
[24/5/20, 5:29:53 PM] Soh: Oic..
[24/5/20, 5:31:08 PM] John Tan: But no self will almost definitely result in pce. There is no duality between self and aggregates, but aggregates and external world may still remain...
[24/5/20, 5:32:06 PM] John Tan: The relationships between aggregates and external world r like another level of self.
[24/5/20, 5:33:00 PM] John Tan: The intellectual obscuration of duality of internal/external, mind/matter will not b resolved that easily.
...
[21/5/20, 11:29:06 PM] John Tan: I prefer u to spend time genuinely refining ur understanding...u must keep authenticating ur insight with ur actual experience
[21/5/20, 11:29:25 PM] John Tan: It is not so easy to clear one from intellectual obscuration
[21/5/20, 11:30:53 PM] John Tan: Got time spend on helping me search for chariot analogy that says relationship defined that way is arya's view...
>...
06       Nov `10, 9:30AM
Originally posted by simpo_:
Yah...
Non-duality is more obvious when it is experienced.
No-self is a more subtle insight. There is a subtle 'switch'. It is this subtle switch that allows for the arising and passing away as the 'self' is not blocking the arising from passing away.
I hope  i am getting it right... 🙂 Hope for Thusness' input and advise.
Yes Simpo,
That is what I understand too.  There are subtle differences between Advaita non-duality and buddhist's anatta both in terms of realization and experience.
When contemplating on the subject of 'no-self', the mind of the practitioner is directed towards the transient phenomena and upon the ripening of conditions, the mind suddenly sees the illusionary division of subject-object duality; with the maturing of this realization, experience becomes seamlessly whole. There is no hearer in hearing or perceiver in perceiving, just simply a sense of perception.   In terms of this experience, they are similar.
However although the blinding bond of 'duality' is dissolved, the tendency to see things 'inherently' isn't. The practitioners continue to resort back to a Self despite after the clear seeing of this truth and rest their understanding of 'no-self based on Self'.  This is substantialist non-duality.  There is an ultimate essence and abiding in Self is still the way towards liberation and there is also the temptation to treat this experience as a sort of pseudo finality.
Buddhism on the other hand sees this experience and realization as the first step in the 8 fold path -- right view.  It means right view of anatta is fully authenticated with this non-dual experience but Buddhist’s non-dual is non-abiding, groundless and essence-less.  There is no resorting back to an ultimate essence and the entire idea of liberation is based on seeing clearly the anatta, non-substantiality, essence-less empty nature of whatever arises, including Awareness or Self.  Experience is luminously non-dual yet empty.
Therefore in Buddhism, besides the experience, right view is very important.  Upon the clearing seeing of ‘no division’, it is advisable to penetrate further into the impermanent nature of phenomena both at the micro and macro level of experience.   In terms of practice, there is no letting go to an ultimate ground or great void  but the letting go is due to the thorough insight of the ‘empty nature’ of all arising -- Reality is perpetually ‘letting go’.
So in addition to the non-dual seamless experience, there must also be the clear experience of perpetual letting go of non-holding to whatever arises.  Therefore when AEN told me non-dual presence, the NDNCDIMOP or being lock up permanently in PCEs of the AF as the key solution to eliminate emotion, pride and anger…the 10 fetters, I told him not yet, not because I am stubbornly attached to Buddha's teaching but because that is my realization and experience. 🙂
The journey towards 'no-self' is analogous to peeling an onion.  Practitioner goes through the process of peeling from dissolving of personality and identity to non-conceptuality to non-duality to realization of the lack of ownership to clear seeing of 'no agent behind transient phenomena to the empty nature of whatever arises.  As we peel, the 'willingness' to let go certain aspects of 'self'/Self' grow and with more 'willingness' to let go, we come closer to seeing the true face of freedom.
Deeper clinging to a Self is not washed away with the non-dual insight.  There must be further integration of the ‘non-dual’ experience into this arising and passing away, this impermanent nature, to dissolve the illusionary sense of self, anger, emotion, pride even the non-dual presence that we treasure so much; let whatever arises goes, be it during the waking, dreaming or deep sleep state.  There will then come a time where a practitioner realizes the same ‘taste’ of the 3 states as there is no holding of the non-dual presence and all experiences turn natural, effortless and self-liberating.
Just my 2 cents. 🙂
Edited by Thusness 06 Nov `10, 3:09PM
12 Sep       `10, 12:44PM
Hi Simpo and AEN,
Yet we cannot get carried away by all these blissful experiences.  Blissfulness is the result of luminosity whereas liberation is due to prajna wisdom.   🙂
To AEN,
For intense luminosity in the foreground, you will not only have vivid experience of ‘brilliant aliveness’, ‘you’ must also completely disappear.  It is an experience of being totally ‘transparent’ and without boundaries.  These experiences are quite obvious, u will not miss it.  However the body-mind will not rest in great content due to an experience of intense luminosity.  Contrary it can make a practitioner more attach to a non-dual ultimate luminous state.
For the mind to rest, it must have an experience of ‘great dissolve’ that whatever arises perpetually self liberates.  It is not about phenomena dissolving into some great void but it is the empty nature of whatever arises that self-liberates.   It is the direct experience of groundlessness and non –abiding due to direct insight of the empty nature of phenomena and that includes the non-dual luminous essence.
Therefore In addition to bringing this ‘taste’ to the foreground, u must also ‘realize’ the difference between wrong and right view.  There is also a difference in saying “Different forms of Aliveness” and “There is just breath, sound, scenery...magical display that is utterly unfindable, ungraspable and without essence- empty.”
In the former case, realize how the mind is manifesting a subtle tendency of attempting to ‘pin’ and locate something that inherently exists. The mind feels uneasy and needs to seek for something due to its existing paradigm.   It is not simply a matter of expression for communication sake but a habit that runs deep because it lacks a ‘view’ that is able to cater for reality that is dynamic, ungraspable, non-local , center-less and interdependent.
After direct realization of the non-dual essence and empty nature, the mind can then have a direct glimpse of what is meant by being ‘natural’, otherwise there will always be a ‘sense of contrivance’.
My 2 cents and have fun with ur army life. 🙂
Edited by Thusness 12 Sep `10, 12:56PM
......
[30/11/17, 12:32:48 AM] John Tan: Joan [Tollifson] is sincere
[30/11/17, 12:33:13 AM] John Tan: U know what is her issue?
[30/11/17, 12:33:34 AM] John Tan: So is her master
[30/11/17, 12:33:43 AM] Soh: Toni [Packer]?
[30/11/17, 12:33:54 AM] Soh: I’m not sure
[30/11/17, 12:34:46 AM] John Tan: The problem is she can't breakthrough
[30/11/17, 12:35:38 AM] John Tan: Means awareness teaching and living in clear presence of here and now
[30/11/17, 12:35:53 AM] Soh: She is not clear of anatta yet?
[30/11/17, 12:35:55 AM] Soh: How about Toni
[30/11/17, 12:35:59 AM] John Tan: No
[30/11/17, 12:36:27 AM] John Tan: There is a limit to insights and vipassana
[30/11/17, 12:37:13 AM] John Tan: Unless u r able to do away with self thoroughly, it is difficult to breakthrough
[30/11/17, 12:37:23 AM] John Tan: U will need concentration
[30/11/17, 12:37:33 AM] John Tan: Or energy practices
[30/11/17, 12:38:07 AM] John Tan: Those experiences will complement what she needs
[30/11/17, 12:38:33 AM] John Tan: Otherwise she must forgo self in every aspect
[30/11/17, 12:38:48 AM] John Tan: Which is even harder...lol
[30/11/17, 12:41:48 AM] Soh: Oic..
[30/11/17, 12:41:56 AM] Soh: So joan and Toni unable to breakthrough self?
[30/11/17, 12:48:17 AM] Soh: U mean unable to breakthrough “awareness”
[30/11/17, 7:01:29 AM] John Tan: They hv insights into anatta.  But actualization of selflessness is a different matter.
[Soh: The first realization or insight of selflessness happens at stream entry or first bhumi, the full actualization of selflessness can be at arahant or eighth bhumi, or if you're talking about twofold obscurations that would be at Buddhahood. To be clear, neither John Tan nor I are claiming to be Buddhas, and we are certainly not saying Toni Packer etc is at some lower stage than us.]
......
“John Tan: Yes you should learn slowly and safely… no need to rush… half a year you will see the effect. My sensations are very powerful now… I want to focus on this technique of mine for a fewmonths... Anatta is very strong nowadays... Wonder why… lol
In addition to insights, the body has some serious obstruction that prevents full blown experience of no-self. When the intensity of sensation is strong, the transparency + insights of Anatta become very powerful and obvious… the natural intensity of sensations helps one to lose all sense of self too...
Soh: Intensity of sensations come from energy practice?
John Tan: Yes” - John Tan, 2013
“[3/12/15, 9:03:06 PM] John Tan: Actually when you practice yoga, if you got the 慧根 (faculty of wisdom)... you will realise the purpose of the asanas to prepare the body to fully open up itself. It is quite ironical because you practice to be natural, tender and flexible...but if you practice, you will realise. The body is tense, rigid and it can't relax and open up itself...it is similar to a mind full of proliferated views and dualistic tendencies going through the 7 phases of insights to open up.”
You can't truly open your mind without opening your body. When the insights open the eye that enable you to experience directly, you must be able to directly feel and experience the supporting conditions that help to lead one to openness. And the body also requires certain mind state to complement your body to open up... your breath and posture and mind... All contribute and play a role... Have you felt your body so clean, cleansed, unobstructed and pure before?
- John Tan, 2019
......
Arcaya Malcolm also pointed out that to attain Rainbow Body [Buddhahood] in Dzogchen in this lifetime, one should practice yantra yoga for controlling vayus.
I wrote, "Yantra  yoga is also integral to dzogchen practice. Malcolm taught that in  order to attain rainbow body in this life, one has to do yantra yoga and  control vayu (vayu is wind/energy/qi/prana).
Malcolm  recommends that people practice yantra yoga. He taught that people of  great capacity progress more quickly, people of lesser capacity more  slowly, but this is a function of vayu in the body, which is why most  people who achieve rainbow body in this lifetime, like Uncle Tokden,  Norbu Rinpoche’s uncle, they are also great yogis of yantra yoga.  Because they have control over their vayu. And we do need to have  control over our vayu. We practice yantra yoga as subsidiary practices  which help and assist our realization. But if we don’t practice yantra  yoga it’s also ok, as it states in the rigpa rangshar tantra, most yogis  of Dzogchen achieve liberation in the bardo of dharmata, not rainbow  body, but if you’re very diligent and you gain great control over the  vayu in your body, then you can have the possibility of rainbow body in  this lifetime."


Lastly, although this post talks about view, it is important to spend quality time to the non-conceptual taste of anatta. The meditative equipoise.
However, there should be a balance.
“When you are luminous and transparent, don't think of dependent origination or emptiness, that is [the contemplative practice for] post-equipoise. When hearing sound, like the sound of flowing water and chirping bird, it is as if you are there. It should be non-conceptual, no sense of body or me, transparent, as if the sensations stand out. You must always have some quality time into this state of anatta. Means you cannot keep losing yourself in verbal thoughts, you got to have quality hours dedicated to relaxation and experience fully without self, without reservation." - John Tan, 2018
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Soh
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I told a few people a few months ago that I expected Anurag Jain to make this breakthrough in a few months time.
Sometimes there is just an intuition.
Like... once there was this guy in Dharma Connection many years ago. He was at the I AM phase and spoke quite standard stuff expected at the I AM phase. But that night he joined the group, I had a dream of clarity, the moment I saw his face I knew his conditions for breaking through to non-dual and anatta is there and realization is imminent. Because of this dream, for the next three days I focused on pointing this out to him, fully expecting him to make that breakthrough any time. Third day he realised it. Fastest record so far... 😂
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 · 58m · Edited


Also Anurag Jain


Have to be careful of nihilism.


http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/07/difference-between-neo-advaita-nihilism.html - important points here


Also nagarjuna explains why emptiness does not mean “non existence” here: 


http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/06/how-experiential-realization-helps-in_22.html


Likewise: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/05/non-action_25.html


Merry Christmas. A conversation with a Christian + Zen (Sanbo Kyodan) practitioner.

Also see Eat God, Sleep God, Use God, Sit God


Mr. M
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Rising Star
  · tnnSp9onsorehtd  ·
With your realizations have you realized where fire comes from and where it goes when it goes off? Do you know where the color green of leaves  came from? I think even scientific minds has not notice it.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Realizing source is just Thusness Stage 1. One can get there by asking before birth, who am I? Keep inquiring into the source until one realizes source.
At later phases the paradigm is replaced by penetrating into anatta, emptiness and dependent origination.

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     · 9h

Mr. M
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Soh Wei Yu
the fire is observable.. can you observe anatta .. or can you observe the source?

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     · 9h

Mr. M
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So if you can observe the fire you can also observe its source.

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     · 9h

Soh Wei Yu
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Mr. M
The problem is understanding Source as background. After I AM the understanding of Source is like an infinite background or container or ground of being out of which all phenomena emerge from and subside to while the background remains intact and unchanged and unaffected.
Anatta sees through the illusion of a background so that one constantly tastes, sees, hears, smells, eats, touch Source as the full embodiment of manifestation alone. This is how one can “eat God, sleep God” etc
Then one sees why zen is become one with action is because of the realization that source is not necessary. Otherwise just abiding as Self or Source will do.
“(7:53 PM) Thusness: XX Rinpoche makes a good statement but that is before understanding stage 5 and 6. That is, without the source, nothing happens. However in Buddhism, insight is to see, penetrate and investigate and become thoroughly clear that the idea of a source, an essence is unnecessary. Once you experience and arise the insight of anatta, you begin open to happening without source, without the need of an essence. This is then the beginning of Buddhism.” - John Tan, 2009
Maybe this sounds scary to you due to Christian background, but nothing is lost. Luminosity is not denied. Its nature is just seen as it is.
Source/Consciousness does not exist in and of itself, it is empty of itself and thus found in all manifestation.

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     · 8h · Edited

Soh Wei Yu
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Mr. M
At stage 6, one realises that burning fire dependently originates based on conditions and does not originate or truly arise. No where can an origin, destination or place of abiding be found.

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     · 8h

Mr. M
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Soh Wei Yu
so you dont know your original face before your parent were born?

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     · 8h

Soh Wei Yu
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Mr. M
Those are stage 1 stuff. That koan “before birth, who am I” is the koan that led to my stage 1 realisation back in february 2010 after two years of self enquiry.
I am telling you how not to get stuck there and move forward. I realised anatta in october 2010.

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     · 8h

Soh Wei Yu
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If you want to progress to oxherding 9, you must realise anatta. Otherwise you just get stuck at the lower oxherding phases.

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     · 8h

Mr. M
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But you said you cannot see the source so how can you return to the source..

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     · 8h · Edited

Soh Wei Yu
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Mr. M
It is not you cannot see the source. It is that the source is empty of itself, and is just the mere phenomena rolling on.
John Tan, 2006:
Yes LongChen, very very well said. What you described is very true about the experience of non-duality and no-self is really referring to the illusionary view of a subject-object split. In actual case, there is no such split and like what you said, there are varying depths and degrees to this experience of non-duality. It will be good to find out more about the 7 factors of enlightenments and five wisdoms in Buddhism.
Sensation is just a word. However when we named it as ‘sensation’, there are whole lots of imprints and definitions that come along with it and that makes seeing it in ‘raw’ difficult. So what is ‘sensation’ in its raw state? It is what we called Presence, our Pristine Awareness. And yes they are all just THAT, that ‘sensation in raw’ and the purpose of why Buddha taught mindfulness will become clear; it is to experience “all is just that”, the One Reality. This has to be experienced intuitively and directly. There is no other way.
Next, we must experience more clearly about its emptiness nature. Awareness is a luminous presence with emptiness as its nature. Its nature is empty in the sense that there is no way you can point to a who, or a place or a moment in time and say “here it is”. It subsides as it arises and never remains. It is symbol-less and therefore we should not rest ourselves in either form or formless. It is neither this nor that and not even an ‘IT’. Simply empty of a ‘self’! A Source that cannot be pinned down is purely an ever manifestation of phenomena that rolls on. Its arising and ceasing is best described in the following:
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
(Dependent Origination – DO)
Do not even ask where it comes from and where it goes. To ask is to satisfy our cognitive thirst. In actual case it is no where to be found, only mere arising and ceasing in raw. The profundity of DO has no depth, zoom deeply into it. Sense the entirety of the moment, the manifolds of Presence, the vividness, texture and fabric of the raw, experience earnestly the luminous and emptiness truth of our nature.
The experience of this is the awakening of the mirror-like wisdom. This is important because it is the base that prevents us from falling into lower realm. But contrary to what that is being commonly explained as a clear mirror reflecting the phenomenon which is again dualistic (by now u will not be able to accept such view ), it is a wisdom that transformed totally the wrong view of phenomena as “out there or in here” to all as the manifestation of our pristine awareness due its emptiness nature. It is the experience of Dharmakaya.
(Source: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2013/12/part-2-of-early-forum-posts-by-thusness_3.html)

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     · 7h

Soh Wei Yu
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You see even though the ninth oxherding picture is titled “returning to the source” it is nothing about a background or formless invisible atman.
Here is the description of 9th oxherding picture again:
Ten Ox-herding Pictures
Stage 9
RETURNING
TO THE SOURCE
Introduction
It is originally pure and clean without a speck of dust clinging.
He observes the flourishing and dying of form while remaining in the silence of no-action.
This is not the same as illusion; what need is there for striving or planning?
The water is blue and the mountains green; he sits and watches phenomena take form and decay.
Verse
Having come back to the origin and returned to the source, you see that you have expended efforts in vain.
What could be superior to becoming blind and deaf in this very moment?
Inside the hermitage, you do not see what is in front of the hermitage.
The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.
How much time and pain it took to come to the eighth stage of "Person and Ox Both Forgotten"! Now you have reached at last the stage where you realize the fact of "Person is empty, so is the dharma," that is, the subject (person) and the object (dharma) are both totally empty. Since this is the fruit of extremely long and hard labor, you tend to stick to this stage and to cherish it endlessly - the last residue of enlightenment. If you succeed in washing it away by constant and persistent sitting, you come to a state of realization that the fact of "Person is empty, so is the dharma" is the essential state of human beings, signifying nothing special at all. Through this realization you return to your original starting point. This is the stage of "Returning to the source," where not a trace of such things as "Buddhism" or "Tathagata" is found anywhere. It is true that "the state after enlightenment is exactly the same as that of before enlightenment." It is the state of mind of "a leisurely person of the Way, who, having finished learning, has nothing more to do."
At this stage you can observe that all the highs and lows and vacillations of this world are, as they are, void of substance and are manifestations of the world of perfect stillness and non-being. Expressed in these terms it sounds as if there were two things - being and non-being. But in fact, being is non-being; the aspect of being is, as it is, non-being itself. There is no distinction between the two at all.
This proposition "Being is non-being" is a crude fact, not a temporary illusion or a dream. At this point you can realize and affirm that it has been entirely unnecessary to be consciously engaged in practicing the way or trying to attain enlightenment. This is a very important point: you start with the first stage of "Searching the Ox," and, spending many years in practice, you come at last to the ninth level of "Returning to the Source," and as a result of this entire process you can say that practice and enlightenment were unnecessary. It is totally wrong to maintain from the very beginning that practice and enlightenment are of no use. Such an attitude is called "inactive zen" [buji-zen] . Today, almost all Zen schools in Japan have degenerated to this "inactive zen." They maintain that just sitting is enough, not appreciating the experience of enlightenment or even ignoring it. On the other hand, you must bear in mind: No matter how strongly you argue that enlightenment is important, if it's nothing more than just propagating a conceptional zen or if you take pride in your experience (if it was an authentic experience), you are only mid-way. There is no other way than to sit and sit and sit, until you can very clearly say that practice and enlightenment were intrinsically unnecessary.
Let's now appreciate the verse by Master Kakuan:
Having come back to the origin and returned to the source,
you see that you have expended efforts in vain.
You are now back to your starting point. How much effort you needed for that! Occasionally you encouraged yourself washing your face with the ice-chilly basin water, or you sank into desperation listening to frogs croaking in the dusk outside, or you kept sitting in defiance of the pains in the legs or of unbearable fatigue. Many times you have felt, "Now, this time I've come to a true experience!" but soon that experience is covered with anxiety and discontent. How many times you have determined to stop doing zazen altogether!.
What could be superior to becoming blind and deaf
in this very moment?
Come to think of it now, why didn't I become like a blind and deaf person right away? "Blind and deaf" here means a state of mind where there is nothing to see and nothing to hear. When you see, there's only the seeing, and the subject that sees doesn't exist. When you hear, there's only the hearing, and the subject that hears doesn't exist. The objects which are seen or heard are, just as they are, without substance. But understanding the logic of this will not do. When this is realized as a fact, you become like a "blind and deaf" person.
Inside the hermitage,
you do not see what is in front of the hermitage.
The late YAMADA Kôun Roshi comments that this line comes from a dialogue between Unmon [864-949] and Master Kempô [dates unknown]: Unmon visited Master Kempô and asked, "Why doesn't a person inside the hermitage know anything outside the hermitage?" To this, Kempô burst out into laughter. The point is why the person inside the hermitage (subject) cannot see the things "in front of the hermitage" (object). That's because there isn't anything in front of the hermitage. You may say that there is only the subject, there being no object at all. Yet, in actual truth, that "subject" doesn't exist either.
The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.
The water runs smoothly, the flowers are colored scarlet. This line seems to imply that there are only the objects and there's no subject at all. However, as a matter of fact, those objects do not exist at all. It's simply that the water is running smoothly, and flowers are scarlet. Everything is just as it is [tada korekore], and everything is void as it is now [arugamama no aritsubure]. The fact that there is no distinction between self and others simply continues without end - "The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.".
- https://terebess.hu/english/oxherding.html
The Ten Ox-Herding Pictures, painted by Tatsuhiko YOKOO, Teisho by KUBOTA Ji'un, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)
TEREBESS.HU
The Ten Ox-Herding Pictures, painted by Tatsuhiko YOKOO, Teisho by KUBOTA Ji'un, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)
The Ten Ox-Herding Pictures, painted by Tatsuhiko YOKOO, Teisho by KUBOTA Ji'un, Terebess Asia Online (TAO)

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Mr. M
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Then you return to the marketplace where everything is doable..
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    Hi Nick. Glad you’re reading this book, I found it very helpful.
    I Am as described here is equivalent to kensho.
    As far as the question about hearing the bell, the question that immediately arose for me was, “Did you have an awakening?” This is what matters. Was there an undeniable shift in the way that you experience moment to moment reality? This is absolutely self-validating. For instance Buddha himself could appear and tell you it wasn’t real and it wouldn’t shake your certainty one bit. It won’t be surrounding a singular event like hearing one thing, but will be pervasive in all of your experience. There is usually an accompanying emotional release and a feeling of vaporizing a heaviness wed been carrying as long as we can remember. It usually comes with a honeymoon period that can last weeks to months, somethings longer. Even when that wears off it’s clear that something has shifted and never shifted back. This is in contrast to tastes of awake nature which can last minutes to hours, sometimes a couple days, but there is no shift in ones identity and you still feel like the same person seeking that relief.
    If that hasn’t then I’d keep working at it and not analyze about specific details. It often occurs that we analyze specific details trying to “solve” something and use that activity as a life line to avoid going into the abyss that no concept can touch.
    Very specifically, there are definitely degrees to which hearing/sensing occurs. Before awakening it can appear as if we can sense directly but the subject / object construct is completely intact. There is no way we can imagine how that sense experience would be without it, literally. To sense without separation operating is quite a different thing, it usually comes with awakening to various degrees, and it’s not subtle.
    I told this story somewhere recently maybe in this group so sorry if you’ve read it, but it’s illustrative here. A friend of mine years ago was in a particularly difficult phase of her life and practice. She was sitting one day and said to herself, “I just can’t get back to myself!” Then she laughed at what a strange thought that was. She asked herself, “Where the fuck did I go then?” And laughed some more. She continued to sit and everything was quiet. It was so quiet and there were no thoughts, that she didn’t notice anything was different bc there was no noticer, but that wasn’t noticed 😂. Then she got up to take a shower. As she ran her hand through her hair under the shower she said she realized that in 37 years of being alive she’d never ACTUALLY felt that before! She couldn’t believe it. Everything was pure flow, clarity, infinite. All objects were pristine, alive and radiant. She spent weeks examining random objects in tears at their beauty and depth. She told me, “You know I always thought enlightenment was something mystical or sone other worldly experience, I was so surprised it was the sensation of water running through my hand in my hair.”
    If you experience the bell, other sounds and visual field this way then you have your answer. If not I’d keep chipping away at it.
    Even if you are experiencing things in a non dual way, that can still be clarified as well as dissolving the tendency to form reference frames, hold position, etc.
    Good luck !
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    Angelo Gerangelo
    great post and your friend’s breakthrough was wonderful

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    Soh Wei Yu
    yeah afterward she referred to it as “The day the world dropped away.” ☺️
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  • Angelo Gerangelo
    Great post. I wonder how this realization you describe fits into the many maps/levels that are mentioned in this thread, ie Buddhist, Wilber or otherwise.

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    Angelo
    That's a fantastic story and immediately relatable to anyone who has had that shift. I remember reading in a Jed Mckenna book where he's awed by the beauty of the rust and grime on some old buildings while he's waiting on a friend. I never got that until after my shift. For me, it was sound. The symphony of construction noise, melody of the dogs snoring, "terrible" pop music suddenly sounding beautiful for what it was, etc.
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    Hi Charlie. In my experience the initial shift (I usually just call awakening or first awakening) but is referred to as I AM or kensho is consistent among those going through this process in earnest. There are differences in initial depths of awakening etc but those are subtleties that would not be easy to sort out until far down the road so trying to sort them out or map them before even going through the process will probably not be very fruitful. Also based on experience, personality, etc people will describe this shift in quite different ways. Many won’t feel inclined to talk about it at all bc it’s clear it’s not something you can put into words/maps and to do so without really knowing the subtleties of how this all moves, can mislead people. As an illustrative example, I was at an adyashanti retreat one and a woman got up and described what sounded like an awakening in her recent past. Then in a round about way she suggested she feels she now wants to help other people go through it. She was clearly looking for an endorsement to teach but didn’t say it out right. He just smiled and sat back looking at her for an uncomfortably long time. Then he finally said in a pretty stern tone, “I can’t tell you what to do... but if you’re going to go out and teach this you’d better know it all the way down to the bottom.” Without saying it literally he was effectively telling her “Go sit for another 20 years, and come back and talk to me.” 😂
    Anyways what I find with people I’m working with who go through this initial gate-less barrier is that this initial shift is consistent and has certain aspects that are undeniable. Few people clarify ongoing non-dual realization right after initial awakening but it can happen as well. More likely it will take several months to several years. That period is one of clarifying practice, dissolving fixations, integrating/dissolving afflicting repressed emotions, investigating how the most fundamental beliefs tied to self operate which leads naturally to clarification etc.
    Also I find that right after awakening the person usually seems quite enlightened for a period. They often touch into non-dual and even no-self for a time but those are usually experiential/unstable and followed by that not-so fun period of feeling quite un-enlightened. Then with good guidance and willingness to let this process dissolve the fixations more and more there can be those further refinements as described in stage 4/5 here. No-self you is sort of a whole different ballgame but it is where this leads if you’re crazy enough to keep going after awakening :0
    I’ll post a link of a friend I interviewed about a week after initial awakening. It took her five months of hard core practice/ Inquiry.
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  • Nothing Changed
    YOUTUBE.COM
    Nothing Changed
    Nothing Changed
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    TD Unmanifest
    yeah when you can be enraptured staring at a wall not trying to meditate , you know something has changed 😂
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    Charlie Birns
    here something else someone sent me right after awakening. You can see that the ways of describing vary yet the shift is undeniable.
    ____
    The body is tired but it doesn’t sleep much. It shakes. I wake up in the middle of the night to cry. The tears keep coming. It actually isn’t me crying, it’s the universe crying. It’s shedding all the tears that my family had to hold back, all the tears that my friends innocently swallowed.
    What grace to be broken open like this.
    Nobody is doing anything. This has nothing to do with me. What is me? Is it still here? Was it ever here? I don’t know. I can’t tell. ‘Me’ sounds like a pet dog.
    Something is dying. But I am here. Alive. There is nothing more obvious. At times thought is quiet. At times thought is loud. Thoughts come. The mind is active. The mind is adorable. All I see are dreams. Mere whispers on the stage. Desire and aversion come and go, but they belong to no one.
    There are hopes and wishes, fears and concerns. And here they all converge, they meet and kiss and dissolve into each other. ____ is changing and not changing. It’s a beautiful show. She’s still here, apparently. She still loves to work her ass off and eat chocolate and exercise and laugh and fall apart. She loves to fall apart. So what?
    There is nothing to overcome. Suffering is perfection.
    The most mundane is the most sacred. Imagination is sacred. Delusion is sacred. Pretense is sacred. In this play I meet myself again and again and again. Hi there you.
    I’m on my death bed and outside the sun is rising. This is where the end meets the beginning. I’ve never heard the birds sing so clearly. So effortlessly.
    I’m exhausted and heavy and I’m vital and light. How can this be? There’s a coexistence. Sameness. I’m moving so rapidly and yet unwaveringly still.
    I’m naked and absolutely held. Held by the unknown. Kidnapped. Conquered by the unknown. Home.
    Thank YOU for lighting the way. Thank you for your willingness to take everything away so gently and so radically. Thank you for feeling when I couldn’t feel. Thank you for getting out of the way, for showing up relentlessly, for the lack of filters, for everything you didn’t do. I don’t know what the fuck you did, but I suspect you didn’t do anything. Thank you for a selfless, agenda-less offering from no one to no one.
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  • Angelo Gerangelo
    Thanks so much for your replies. I really like how you write about this. I find it difficult to locate my perceptual shifts in terms of maps and stages, though it is compelling and in some ways productive to do so. It seems like you are locating that initial, seismic nondual realization as stages 4 and 5 on the AtR Seven stages of enlightenment map. I found Adyashansti's book "The End of Your World" a helpful guide navigating life after that initial breakthrough/breakdown. What have you found to be the most helpful approaches or supports for continuing the insane journey to no-self-land?

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    Charlie Birns
    I think that’s a good book, he has one called emptiness dancing that is good as well. As far as resources, it’s hard for me to say honestly. I have only read a handful of books about realization. They seem to appear when needed. A few things I think are important for life after that initial awakening and up until no-self are these.
    1. Important to find where intention (for awakening , living truth etc), meets surrender to flow of life/non-dual nature of immediate experience. Continue to find this sweet spot revealed in various activities, not just on the mat. Continue to investigate the pristine and dimensionless nature of sense phenomena / presence. If done correctly the sense of a world will dissolve. This is not describable but it’s true experience, nothing special and transient (just this). Like entering a non-world of as this is-Maha-radiance . From here it’s exquisitely clear there is nothing to do, yet alertness and willingness to see any and all fixation tendencies, beliefs and avoidance patterns is key. From here there is nowhere to go and spontaneity IS practice IS radiant empty nature IS everything-not-in space-and-here IS nothing at all. Endless flux so primary it can’t even know it self, just pure display . It’s radically intimate but impossibly varied. It’s no where and never not here. This carries itself forward naturally,
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    Angelo Gerangelo
    that's awesome. thank you! I definitely still have subject/object despite no-thought when experiencing sensations. If I enquire "who am I" attention centres on the energy channel running up the centre of the body, then I enquire "who am I" (meaning I see that I am aware of what initially seems like me then enquire of that). Is that how you would practice?

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    Nick Wilson
    for initial breakthrough it doesn’t involve the senses so much as it does the relationship between thought and consciousness. I write something recently may be helpful

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    Self-Inquiry
    We’ve already touched on the question “Who am I?” a couple times. Now we’re going to take that point of inquiry and supercharge it. We’ll use this self-inquiry vehicle as a sort of depth charge. Its purpose is to plunge you down through all those layers of belief and personal narrative, right to the core of identity. If we do this the right way, it will detonate when it reaches that core. This detonation will blow a hole right through the bottom. “The bottom of what?” You might ask. The bottom of everything. We are going to blow a hole right through the bottom of reality. You didn’t come all this way for nothing right?
    “Blowing a hole through the bottom” is obviously a metaphor. The transformation that we’re referring to is so radical that even dimension (bottom, top, near, far) will be seen to be an illusion. Still, it’s a reasonably apt description. After my own awakening, these were the exact words that occurred to me. A couple of days into reality as I knew it dismantling itself, I was talking to a friend about what had happened. I knew I couldn’t adequately put into words what had taken place. I also knew it was impossible to describe what had replaced the struggle and isolation I had previously considered “normal life.” Yet my friend could sense that something had dramatically changed in me, and asked what had happened. The words came, “I was meditating and the bottom fell out.” It was exactly like this. Oddly enough, when the bottom fell out, there was nothing for everything to fall into. The framework of reality as I had known it had completely deconstructed itself. What was left was something like a deep and pervasive peace, and that’s how it remains. It’s obvious that whatever I thought was real before was only a very small “model” of reality, something like a shadow on a wall. I had stumbled upon a possibility, a way of investigating perception, that completely altered the way I experience reality.
    Self inquiry has the power to bring this about for anyone who is willing to take the plunge. By imbibing it with the will to awaken to our true nature, we give the self-inquiry vehicle power beyond the limits of what we are capable of on our own. In this way, the inquiry becomes something of a portal or a conduit through which we can come into contact with forces altogether beyond the limits of the human dimension. Once this happens, you can no longer know yourself in the limited and definite way you had previously learned to perceive yourself. Your identity will find a new equilibrium with unbound consciousness, which is essentially limitless. The limitless experience of consciousness-Being, while astounding, is but the staging area for the more radical unfolding ahead. Yet it is a very important milestone in the process of realization.
    Like any catalyst, this method of self inquiry functions best when the environmental conditions are favorable. Let’s spend some time discussing the optimal conditions to support this process before we will delve into the mechanics of the inquiry itself. Here are the conditions:
    Alert: This inquiry works best if we are alert, without straining. You don’t want to be slack with your attention, daydreaming, or mind-wandering. On the other hand, it’s unnecessary to be hyper-vigilant or to strain your attention into a hyper-focused state. You want to be alert enough to assure that nothing escapes your attention, including any thought. A relaxed and dilated (open) attention, engaged in the process of inquiry is ideal. It is something like driving an automobile in a city you are unfamiliar with. Unlike taking a long drive down the highway where you might zone out or daydream a bit, driving in an unfamiliar city requires you to keep your attention on the immediate environment. You won’t be daydreaming or imagining events and places that aren’t in your current experience. It can take a bit of practice to strike the right balance of alertness and relaxation. Keep practicing and you will find that sweet spot where you are neither daydreaming nor straining.
    Curious: Genuine curiosity is necessary for this approach to work. It’s my responsibility to relate the mechanics of this inquiry in a way that compels genuine curiosity. It’s up to you to be willing to acknowledge that innocent curiosity and proceed from it. We often circumvent natural curiosity by moving our attention to a familiar but artificial mental construct when we find ourselves in the unknown. We do this to feel some sense of certainty. This means that when faced with the unknown we often cling to old habituated patterns of thinking to help us avoid admitting to ourselves that we really don’t know. When this technique is applied correctly you will find yourself in the unknown rather quickly. The paradox here is that using thought to “cure” that sense of unknowing will undermine the inquiry. A willingness to remain in unguarded curiosity is the lamp that lights the way forward.
    Empirical: One definition of empirical is, “Verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or logic.” When conducting self-inquiry, it’s best to forego comparing your experience to any idealized experience or expectation. We’re here to discover. So any description we’ve read or heard about what is supposed to happen when we self-inquire is useless. We’re only interested in what we directly discover. If you’re willing to take a strictly empirical approach, then only immediate, obvious, and self-explanatory experience matters. When you really get the spirit of this, it is quite a relief. How nice it is to not to have to stress over whether your experience is the “right” one. In a sense you’re putting realization in the hot seat. You’re saying, “OK, I trust that you really can show me something that is beyond my own capacity to construct as a mental image. I will keep my slate clean and not compare my experience to any ideal, regardless of where I acquired that ideal.”
    Fresh: - When you begin this inquiry just let go of everything you know. Let go of past inquiries and results. Let go of any insights you might have had, even the last time you meditated or engaged in inquiry. In fact, let go of what happened five minutes ago. Just this one question. Just this one experiential observation. Do this every time you return to inquiry. Better yet, do this as you go about inquiry. It’s like writing on a chalkboard and there is an eraser immediately following the chalk. In this way every moment is fresh. Every time a question is asked, it’s asked from complete innocence and unknowing. We carry no baggage in this way. When we free ourselves up from the bondage of the past, we are free to synchronize with the moment to moment flow of reality.
    Consistent: Initially, you might approach this inquiry during seated meditation, or when you feel inclined to introspect. Over time, as the curiosity and desire to wake up build, you will find that you can carry this inquiry with you for longer periods of time. You might be surprised as it becomes quite enjoyable to carry this throughout daily activities such as cooking, working, exercising, and even talking with others. With consistency a certain momentum builds. When I was close to awakening (though I didn’t know it at the time), I would even carry inquiry off into sleep. I would try to stay with the query even as my consciousness seemed to disappear into nothingness. I would then pick it up just as soon as I remembered upon waking. There’s no need to judge yourself if you can’t stay with it constantly, but as your passion to penetrate the barrier of illusion grows, you will find that it can be carried with you a lot of the time. After all, if you’ve come this far you’ve realized there is nothing more important than this right?
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    Posting in pieces bc FB doesn’t like long comments 😂

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    Basic Process
    1. Become receptive to thought: It’s so common for us to attempt suppress or avoid thoughts when we want to relax and rest. We often conclude that if all those thoughts weren’t there we’d be at peace. Well when it comes to self-Inquiry we actually want the thoughts to come. We orient toward thoughts, as if we can’t wait for the next thought to arrive. This might sound counterintuitive but when you truly embrace the arrival of thoughts (regardless of their content), it can relax you in a different way than you might be used to. It’s not a checked-out sort of relaxation, it’s a checked-in relaxation. To put it simply, a lot of strain is involved in resisting thoughts, and we resist thoughts to various degrees all day long. So the first step is to simply become thought-receptive. Turn your attention to that inner movie screen. You can even affirm inwardly, “I choose to be completely receptive to thoughts, they have all of my attention right now. I welcome them.” Another way of saying it is to make the awareness of thoughts as thoughts, the most interesting thing to you in this moment. For instance, the goal is not to daydream endlessly about a beach trip to the Bahamas. Rather we become fascinated as the thought of the Bahamas forms on that inner screen. “Oh, so this is a thought! It’s showing a sort of inner movie of the Bahamas, and yet I can see it’s made out of some sort of nebulous thought-stuff.” That’s what it means to become fascinated with thought as thought.
    2. Take a neutral stance: As a thought arrives, don’t evaluate its content. There’s no need to assign a value to it such as, “this is a good thought or a bad thought.” For instance if a thought arrives that says, “I’m confused,” we needn’t assign a negative connotation to it. Just take it as a neutral experience. For example, consider the thought to be like a pad of paper with the message “I’m confused” written on it. We could say that the pad of paper is primary to the message, meaning the pad of paper could be there with any message on it or no message at all. In that sense it’s neutral. When we see a thought as a thought, we have this opportunity to perceive its neutrality. It’s when we believe a thought points to some reality “out there” that we begin to struggle with polarity. As you practice with one thought at a time, you will get better at perceiving this neutrality.
    3. Clarify the thought. This step can take a bit of practice because we usually have a dynamic relationship with thought inside consciousness. We tend to move past certain thoughts that are uncomfortable or partially unconscious. This is even more marked when we are feeling restless and our monkey-mind is swinging from branch to branch so quickly that we’re not fully aware of what thought branches it’s swinging from. So slow down. Take one thought at a time as it arrives. Once you recognize a thought (whether conceptual, auditory, or visual image), try to clarify it a bit. If it’s conceptual you can speak it in your mind. If you think of this like watching a slide show of thoughts on a movie screen, you want to slow down the slides. Then you want to move closer to the screen and clarify exactly what that thought/image/slide is. As you get better at holding a single thought in your mind you might be surprised how simple and even relaxing it becomes. You might also be surprised that the closer you look at a thought the less substance it seems to have. This is analogous to walking so close to the screen that all you see are soft forms, shapes, and light.
    4. Notice how the thought feels like it’s about “Me.” The previous steps can become somewhat passive once you get the hang of them. This step requires active engagement with each thought, if only for a moment. This is because this step addresses the precise moment when we become unconscious, meaning the moment we become identified with thought. It’s a subtle transition, so we must train ourselves to recognize it if we ever want to finally be free of it. Here you may feel like you are doing a bit of detective work, but it’s essential to do it every time. Initially it can feel somewhat awkward, like you’re going against the habit force of the thought stream. What you’re really doing here is undermining a false perspective. The key is to observe the thought and identify the sense that this thought is about “me.” Let’s look at an example. Let’s say we become receptive to thought(step one). We turn our attention inward, and within a short time we are starting to form a visual memory of eating a sandwich 10 minutes ago. We remember thinking about what a good sandwich it was at the time we were eating it. As we become aware of this thought, we recognize, “Ok in this thought/memory there is a visual replaying of eating a sandwich. There is also self-dialogue saying it is a good sandwich eating experience. It is clear that this self talk occurred ten minutes ago. At this moment it is simply one thought in my mind, neither good nor bad.” This is step two. Now we clarify the visual experience of that thought, somewhat like we are squaring ourselves up to the internal movie screen and stepping closer (step 3). We notice the colors and textures of the room, the sandwich, and our hand holding it. We see the movement and recall the chewing as well as the internal dialogue, “What a delicious sandwich this is.” We see how peculiar it is that this is all made out of thought-stuff and yet it is quite vivid. Now for step four. In this step we recognize that this thought, this internal movie appears to be about me. It seems that I was the one eating the sandwich doesn’t it? Of course in the past I did eat a sandwich, but in this thought, it seems that it is referring to “me.” It’s not Joe or Jessica eating that sandwich. I understand this may seem so obvious as to be absurd, but it’s key to recognize that this thought clearly appears to refer to someone called “me.” In addition it seems and feels like this thought is occurring to “me.” This means that the sense of me is not only implied in the thought (the one eating the sandwich), but also it is implied by there being a thought at all. Let me explain. Not only does the thought appear to suggest it is about “me” as the star of the internal movie eating a sandwich, but it also suggests that there is a “me” that is interested in the thought at all. Can you see that distinction? More importantly can you find that sense with your own thought, whatever that is? It appears as if the thought is happening to a “me,” the thinker. It suggests a “me” right here and now that is aware of and viewing the thought. You could say it suggests a “me” in two different respects. One is a remembered me (as a thought subject). The other is an immediate me that is aware of that thought right in this moment. Can you feel into both of those? Is your internal experience starting to feel a bit different? Do you feel the edges of identity starting to soften or distort? If you do, that’s totally normal. If you don’t yet, it’s ok. Give this some practice and sooner or later those perceptual frameworks will start to loosen and fragment. If you’ve gone through this step along with me (using your own immediate thought experience) and you understand and can experience directly that a thought implies both a subject “me” which is the main character in the thought, as well as the immediate “me” which is the viewer/thinker of the thought, then you’ve completed step four. I know this can be confusing or disorienting at first, but it’s imperative to go through this process for this type of self-inquiry to really do its magic. It will get much simpler with a bit of practice.

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    5. Now, look for the “me.” All of the steps up until this one were preparatory steps. They are all necessary and you shouldn’t skip over them using this approach. However, they are merely a means to orient you properly for this final step. This step is very simple. Now that you have a sense that the thought you have become aware of is about “me,” look for that me. That’s it. The thought says there’s a me there that it’s about, right? Now look for it in your immediate experience. By that I mean don’t think about who/where/what that sense of me is. You have to look for evidence of it right in your experience. It helps to start by looking in the place where it feels like you are right now. Look right in the center of the one that feels like the “me” that thought was about. Do you find something there? Is there something definite you can identify and say, “There’s the ‘me,’ there’s exactly what I am?” If you can then what is it you found there? If you don’t find anything specific then just keep looking. Here are some common immediate results and how to navigate them:
    * You immediately start thinking again, “Well I know who I am, this practice is silly it doesn’t work for me...” When this happens, great! That is your next thought, start from step 2 with that thought and proceed through the inquiry. It doesn’t matter what the next thought is. If it is a thought it is obviously not you right? It can’t be you because you were there before that thought and you will be there after that thought, right? Also that thought says it’s about you so clearly it isn’t actually you. Lastly you are aware of the thought so it can’t be equivalent to what you are right? So just keep looking, and if a thought sucks you in then just start at step 2 with the new thought.
    * You totally forget what you’re doing. This is fine, it can be confusing to put the mind on the rack in this way. It’s not used to it. If at any point you’ve totally lost track of what you’re doing, find yourself daydreaming, etc, just start again at number one.
    * You go to look for the “me” that the thought says it’s about and can’t find it. It’s important to make a distinction here between the thought, “I can’t find it/I can’t find myself,” and a looking that just keeps on going with no landing on anything solid or specific. In the first case just start with that thought at step two again. If it’s the second case, the looking goes on and there is genuine curiosity even though nothing is found, then great! Just keeping doing that. You’ve figured out the point of self inquiry. If you find yourself in that pure looking but landing nowhere specific and there are no thoughts, you are doing pure self-inquiry. Just keep at it. Stay in the gap. It might happen for a few seconds at first. Then a thought will come. At that point, start at step two again. Over time you might go from several seconds to a few minutes or longer. The key is thoughtless looking. Neither rejecting thoughts nor getting entangled in their content. A pure movement of innocent curiosity. It might feel dynamic or it might feel quite still. Either is fine, just keep that looking going.

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    Fine tuning
    Once you get the hang of these steps and can move through them in a short time you will notice it’s not hard to get that thoughtless gap, even if it is for a short time. The following suggestions can help fine tune to that frequency of pure self-inquiry. It’s something like tuning a radio between stations. You neither land at this thought nor at that thought, yet you aren’t rejecting any thought. Perhaps it could be said that attention moves toward a thought so quickly that it has no time to fully form. Attention becomes the thought. Over time it will become far more spontaneous and relaxing to remain in this thoughtless gap of pure looking, pure knowing without thought, and pure being.
    - Recognize when another thought has emerged and has bound your attention. Often the thought will be about the immediate inquiry practice. This is often the moment we become re-identified with thought and don’t realize it, simply because the content of the thought is about the practice itself.
    - Reviewing the thought chapter may be helpful. Recognize that anything you can put into words is a thought. Also any image, even vaguely defined images, are thoughts.
    - You may have to reinvigorate your curiosity periodically, you don’t want to practice this mechanically.
    - You can use the body as a gauge to assure you are doing this in a non-straining (relaxed) manner. You can periodically put attention into various parts of the body just to see if you’re holding tension anywhere or straining. This is especially useful if the inquiry feels strained, frustrating, or tense. Once you get the hang of doing self-inquiry without straining it may not be necessary to check in with the body in this way.
    - Keep in mind that the pure looking in thoughtless gap doesn’t mean that you are out of contact with the stuff thoughts are made of (consciousness). It’s quite the opposite. It’s more like all of experience gets replaced by thought-stuff, which is also you-stuff. It’s all one endless continuum of pure conscious experience. The looking/questioning, the sense of you, the gap, and the thought stuff, are all the same substance.
    - Even though we’re using a question as a launch vehicle, we’re not looking for a specific arrival place, a conceptual understanding, or a certain pre-defined experience. We’re more interested in “settling in” to pure experience itself which is not apart from the experiencer. The pure experience is infused with curiosity and fascination. However it’s a satisfied curiosity, so it doesn’t require resolution like a typical question would.

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    Potential Pitfalls:
    - Asking “Who Am I?” or “Where am I?” and then looking around for a conceptual answer. This simply leads to more inner dialogue, thinking, and frustration.
    - Concluding “Oh there is no I/me/self.” This will lead to a dull inquiry with little interest in actually looking for the sense of “me.” The reason this happens is because we’ve become identified with the thought “There is no I/me/self.” When we are identified with that thought we don’t recognize it as just another thought. Another way of saying this is that when we adopt the belief, “There is no me/self,” the view from which that belief is held remains completely intact. The unseen (and assumed) sense of subjective self holds the view that there is no self. The self we are investigating is not a mere thought or belief. It’s a sense, frame of reference, or a feeling-assumption. So if you find yourself concluding this, you can recognize that conclusion as a mere thought. Then you can start at step two again using that thought.
    - We get frustrated. It doesn’t feel like anything is happening so we feel frustration, impatience, or even anger. If this occurs it doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong. In fact when we start digging into our identity, it’s common for emotions to come to the surface. If this occurs. Just take a breath and relax for a minute. Then acknowledge the emotion. Feel it in your body. See if you can relax any tension in the body associated with the emotion. Then look for the thought or belief associated with the experience. It might be something like, “I’m feeling frustration.” Then proceed with the inquiry starting with step two.
    - Staring at the thought/question “who am I?” endlessly without realizing that the one who feels like you doing this practice, and having a history, and a spiritual path etc, is what you are supposed to try to investigate. Whenever that dawns on you, look there!
    - Concluding that because you haven’t found an I or a self, there is no value in continuing to look. The non-conceptual looking is the point.
    - Being uncomfortable with the thoughtless state, then reengaging thoughts. This happens very frequently. When it occurs, we rarely realize that the mind re-engaged thought to avoid the fear response that can arise with thoughtless gaps. If we keep at self-inquiry, returning to the thoughtless gap again and again, we will often realize there is a certain fear associated with letting go of the addiction to thoughts. We are so used to clinging to the next thought, and then the next, that we often don’t recognize an underlying uneasiness that we are habitually using thoughts to avoid. If we persist in spite of any uneasiness or fear, then these emotions will settle with time and experience. If we just keep returning to this gap and remain there beyond the fear and physical responses, then things will start to change experientially. This is where magic can happen, but you have to stay in that gap.

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    Examples
    1. Above I used the example of a thought about eating a sandwich. I started with a visual thought because they are the simple to describe. Let’s look at another example with a thought that is a bit more obscure. Let’s assume we start the self-inquiry process. We begin by becoming receptive to thought. We become aware of our inner thought-space and wait. After a short time we think, “Inquiry never works for me.” This is where the rubber meets the road. Many people will get exactly this far and give up. They give up by not recognizing that the thought “Inquiry never works for me” was their entry point. If you don’t catch it, and you believe that you were the thinker of that thought, you will give in to the stream of thoughts that follow. How do I know this happens so frequently? Well because people tell me. It’s common for someone to attempt self-inquiry and then report, “Every time I do inquiry it starts out well, but then I can’t get past...” Then they proceed to tell me the rest of the thought that bound them. I don’t blame them, the hypnotic pull of thought is far more powerful than most of us realize. When this happens I try as nicely as possible to point out that the thought that came up during self-inquiry saying “Every time I do inquiry it starts out well, but then I can’t get past...” was just a thought like any other. However at the moment they failed to recognize it as a thought, they hypnotized themself back into the thought stream and abandoned the inquiry process. So now that you have that background information let’s look at the thought, “Inquiry never works for me.” Step two is to take a neutral stance. If we believe this thought is a statement of truth, we might feel frustrated and might judge it as undesirable. However now that we’re out of the business of judging thoughts, we can regard it as neutral, because it is. It’s a thought like any other, in that it’s made of the same thought-stuff that every thought is made of. That thought-stuff is neutral in quality. The next step is to clarify it. Just repeat it once in your mind and annunciate the inner dialogue. “Self inquiry never works for me.” Can you see how it’s just like some mysterious substance of mind that can seemingly form internal sounds (dialogue) where there are none? That internal dialogue is clear somehow, but also not there at all. It’s also the same stuff that made up the sandwich thought isn’t it? Step four, notice this thought appears to be about “me.” In this case I think it’s more clear why this is important. It has to do with the story I told about how people commonly get this far and then end up getting dragged down the thought stream. If you don’t slow down enough and go through these steps then when a thought like this comes, it can really hooks you and take you for a ride. There is a certain momentum to our relationship with thoughts. The stepwise approach slows this momentum down enough to truly disentangle ourselves from thoughts. So when a thought like this catches us and drags us into the thought stream, such that we abandon the entire process of self-Inquiry, it is because that momentum has caused us to take that thought as a statement of fact. We experience that thought as if it’s defining reality. Moreover, we take it as if it’s defining reality for “me.” The “me” becomes assumed and solidified when this momentum is ongoing. This is the step where we have an opportunity to truth-test the “me” that this thought claims to be about. So now let’s perform step 4. The thought was, “Self-Inquiry never works for me.” Now we recognize that the thought seems to be referring to “me.” In fact it states it directly doesn’t it? That’s the assumed me that is the subject of the thought. More importantly there is an assumed, felt “me,” that seems to be aware of that thought. This is the sense of the one that feels disappointed or frustrated if that thought is believed. Now we proceed to step five. Look for that “me.”You’ll notice that it isn’t in the thought. Why? Because clearly you don’t disappear when that thought subsides. Furthermore you were clearly here before that thought arose. So where else can you look? You can look where it feels like you are. What’s there? Well you might notice a sensation, such as a pressure in the head or a subtle feeling in some other part of the body. Is that you? Well the sense of you can be there when you aren’t noticing that specific sensation right? So just keep looking. Stay in that curiosity. Stay in the feeling of that place that seems to be aware of thoughts, seems to form thoughts, and yet is still there even when there are no thoughts for a moment. Stay here and you’ll be physically experiencing where the sense of you the thinker, the sense of the thoughts on the inner movie screen, and the gap between thoughts are all seamlessly one. Just stay there. It might feel dynamic and it might feel very still. It might feel both simultaneously. Once you “get” the feel of this you need do nothing more than stay right there. Stay there during meditation. Stay there as you get up from meditation. Stay with it through activities to the degree possible. Stay there any time you remember to return to that gap. See if you can carry it off into sleep and pick it up right as you awaken.

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    That’s about as detailed as I can muster for how that initial shift into unbound consciousness occurs. Just don’t share it outside of this group, it’s going into a book that hopefully will be published soon.

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    Angelo Gerangelo
    that is bloody awesome. thank you. from what book is that taken?

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    Angelo Gerangelo
    Ah, got it. Forget my other comment I saw this after 🙂 So what if you have no thoughts? I get almost no thought in meditation and with a small effort not much in the waking day

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