badge icon
2009:
(7:37 PM) AEN: namdrol says there cant be original enlightenment as that wld be the hindu teaching
or atman (Namdrol = acarya malcolm smith)
(7:38 PM) Thusness: yes because they see non-dual as enlightenment
(7:38 PM) AEN: oic
(7:39 PM) Thusness: u mean e-sangha ban them?
lol
(7:40 PM) AEN: yeah... alot of zen teachers and even moderators were banned during a period of time and e-sangha even received lawsuits thread etc
(7:40 PM) Thusness: by the way, that is also not hindu teachings
(7:40 PM) AEN: and members
oic
there were also other issues i think... some dun believe in rebirth etc... and some other things
(7:40 PM) AEN: im not exactly sure what happened
(7:40 PM) Thusness: that is neo-advaita teaching
(7:40 PM) AEN: oic
(7:41 PM) Thusness: because we are already enlightened so why practice?
(7:41 PM) Thusness: yet this will arise another insight
so this is also necessary
(7:42 PM) Thusness: first of all if this is not true, how is it that so many practitioners are claiming that?
(7:42 PM) AEN: they have the view of an inherent consciousness?
(7:43 PM) Thusness: there must b certain experience or incomplete realization that led practitioners to such a conclusion
(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness: it too is a koan.
(7:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:45 PM) Thusness: if one stops at One Mind, it will most likely end up concluding that way
(7:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness: yet it is also important that u come to the same conclusion. 🙂
just like I AMness
(7:49 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:49 PM) AEN: the original enlightenment is realised at non dual ?
(7:49 PM) Thusness: yes
(7:50 PM) AEN: icic
(7:50 PM) Thusness: i think i told u we do not have a perfect nature right?
(7:50 PM) Thusness: we have a dependent originated nature
(7:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:51 PM) AEN: but at the same time its spontaneously perfected?
(7:51 PM) Thusness: however it is also important that u arrive at the same conclusion as those zen practitioners
(7:51 PM) AEN: oic
(7:52 PM) Thusness: that is different
(7:52 PM) Thusness: i have already told u many times not to talk about spontaneous arising, liberation or perfection
(7:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:53 PM) Thusness: only after the direct insight of anatta and DO can u talk about that
(7:53 PM) Thusness: this I have emphasized many times to u
and written many times
(7:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:55 PM) Thusness: this is because after the insight of anatta and DO, u r already purified and clear of the wrong understanding
(7:56 PM) Thusness: ignorance is the cause of suffering, when it dissolves, u r naturally and spontaneously perfected
(7:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:58 PM) AEN: but even when there is ignorance, our nature is spontaneously perfected right, just not realised?
(7:59 PM) Thusness: nope..
(7:59 PM) AEN: oic what u mean
(7:59 PM) Thusness: to me yes, to u no
for i know what it meant
(8:01 PM) AEN: oic 
 
...
 
badge icon
Likewise that view is rejected in the text malcolm is explaining:
The Basis as Naturally Perfect 2.1.1.1.1 Nevertheless, first, the assertion of the basis as naturally perfect is confirmed by understanding the four wheels: [Thesis] Naturally perfect reality is unfragmented and whole. [Refutation] The refutation states that this assertion that the basis is naturally perfect is defective. If it is claimed that at the time of the cause [the basis] is naturally perfect, the result also will be naturally perfect, [15b] like the example of butter already being naturally perfect in milk. In the same way, is the cause established
or not established in the result? If it is established, the result becomes a cause. Since a result is then pointless, the cause (deluded sentient beings) would then turn into the result (buddhas). In that case, there would be no need for anyone to make effort. If the cause is not established in the result, the assertion of the natural perfection [of the basis] is defective. Further, if it is said, “[The basis] is established at the time of the cause, but it is not established at the time of the result,” then natural perfection would alternate and become a view that falls into the extremes of existence and nonexistence. If it is said, “Because [the basis] is naturally perfect, it isn’t anything at all,” then this is no different than the Cittamātra assertion that the dependent nature is ultimate. The Six Dimensions Tantra states: Since the cause and result are different, [the basis] too is not naturally
perfect. Likewise, if the cause and result were the same, effort would be meaningless. The two replies to the objection can be inferred. Here they will not be mentioned. Since the essence is pure from the beginning, saṃsāra is not established. [16a] Since the nature arises as a diversity, nirvāṇa is not established. Since the essence and nature are nondual, they are present as an intrinsic nature 64 that has never experienced delusion.
- buddhahood in this life, dzogchen book/text by vimalamitra translated by acarya malcolm smith
 
 
 
badge icon
Ignorance is the default state. Ignorance and all the 12 links of dependent origination arises from without beginning. From the perspective of Buddhadharma, ignorance does not start from this life, it is a chain of conditioning that is perpetuated without beginning. Otherwise we would not be reborn here in samsara, we would not be here in the first place. The suffering we have undergone in the cycle of rebirth is countless and beginningless https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN15_13.html
Through practice we start to discover this truth of dependent origination and no self. Later it is seen that what dependently originates do not originate, is empty.
 
 
....
 
 
badge icon
No Buddha is Conscious of its Existence [of having a Perfect-nature]
"By his fifteenth year one burning question became the core around which his spiritual strivings revolved: "If, as the sutras say, our Essential-nature is Bodhi (perfection), why did all Buddhas have to strive for enlightenment and perfection?" His dissatisfaction with the answers he received at Mount Hiei led him eventually to Eisai-zenji, who had brought the teachings of the Rinzai sect of Zen Buddhism from China to Japan. Eisai's reply to Dogen's question was: "No Buddha is conscious of its existence [that is, of this Essential-nature], while cats and oxen [that is the grossly deluded] are aware of it." In other words, Buddhas, precisely because they are Buddhas, no longer think of having or not having a Perfect-nature; only the deluded think in such terms. At these words Dogen had an inner realization which dissolved his deep-seated doubt."
-- recommended reading, Yasutani-roshi's Introductory Lectures on Zen Training (it's a practical text on Zazen and Koan training)
This reminded me of what Thusness wrote to me in 2007:
(10:10 PM) Thusness: before experiencing non-dual, one cannot fully understand spontaneous arising.
(10:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:11 PM) Thusness: non-dual first then spontaneous arising and emptiness is deeper than that.
(10:11 PM) Thusness: it is not to say it is complete and perfect
(10:12 PM) Thusness: this is fall back to the background.
(10:12 PM) Thusness: now if u think carefully, isn't it the cognitive thought in action?
(10:13 PM) Thusness: it is the cognitive mind extrapolating it.
(10:13 PM) Thusness: one should not react to the teachings
(10:14 PM) Thusness: know emptiness without image, without concepts
(10:15 PM) Thusness: don't think of existence or non-existence
(10:15 PM) Thusness: don't think that it is perfect
(10:15 PM) Thusness: don't assume that it is imperfect
(10:15 PM) Thusness: nothing of this sort.
(10:15 PM) Thusness: just arising and ceasing when condition is.
(10:16 PM) Thusness: then true naturalness will be experienced.
(10:16 PM) Thusness: there is nothing perfect about our nature, it is just so. Just our nature.
(10:16 PM) Thusness: luminosity and empty
(10:16 PM) Thusness: 🙂
(10:17 PM) Thusness: when condition is not there, nothing is there.
(10:17 PM) Thusness: there is no manifestation.
(10:17 PM) Thusness: neither existence nor non existence
(10:18 PM) Thusness: however X has already entered the path of prajna, ur center called it wu-wei fa.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: that is spontaneously arises, naturalness according to yuan.
(10:18 PM) Thusness: but why can't sleep?
(10:18 PM) Thusness: 😛
(10:18 PM) AEN: background?
(10:19 PM) Thusness: no what i meant why can't she sleep if naturalness is already there?
(10:19 PM) AEN: sinking to the source?
(10:19 PM) Thusness: if condition arises, why there is no sleep?
(10:19 PM) Thusness: just sleep
(10:19 PM) Thusness: coz all the conditions for sleep already manifest but she still can't sleep.
(10:20 PM) AEN: brb
(10:20 PM) Thusness: becoz there is another cause preventing her from entering sleep working at the pre-conscious level.
(10:20 PM) AEN: back
(10:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:20 PM) AEN: what kind of other cause
(10:21 PM) Thusness: the experience of "AMness"
(10:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:21 PM) Thusness: sinking back to the source.
(10:21 PM) AEN: oic
(10:22 PM) Thusness: din u see she said about the xu kong (empty space)?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: as an illustration.
(10:22 PM) AEN: ya
(10:22 PM) Thusness: anyway just sui yuan. 🙂
(10:22 PM) Thusness: she is already 50+?
(10:22 PM) AEN: yup
(10:24 PM) Thusness: just sui yuan. But remember for ur practice, the practice of wu wei fa is like the xin jing. But understanding of emptiness must be like what i tell u.
(10:25 PM) Thusness: not because it is perfect or whatsoever, it is because the nature is so.
(10:25 PM) AEN: oic
(10:25 PM) Thusness: this must be the understanding.
(10:25 PM) Thusness: then c whether got yuan to experience non-dual...eheeh
(10:26 PM) Thusness: then fuse the 2 understandings.
(10:26 PM) Thusness: and experience intuitively..🙂
(10:28 PM) Thusness: now what is the most unique understanding u have all these years?
(10:30 PM) AEN: erm i dunno leh lol
(10:30 PM) AEN: i guess after i experience then it will become 'unique' 😛
(10:30 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:30 PM) Thusness: then what sort of knowledge u gathered so far?
(10:31 PM) AEN: non duality, impermanence, things like tat? naturalness?
(10:31 PM) Thusness: what is non-duality?
(10:31 PM) AEN: no self, no subject object division? no background?
(10:31 PM) Thusness: yes. 🙂
(10:32 PM) Thusness: non-duality is buddhism no-self
(10:32 PM) Thusness: no-self is a better word to me...ehehehe
(10:32 PM) AEN: oic haha
(10:32 PM) Thusness: there is really no-self
(10:33 PM) Thusness: and mindfulness purpose is to allow us to experience that
(10:33 PM) Thusness: why so?
(10:33 PM) Thusness: because there is no symbols
(10:33 PM) Thusness: because there is no content
(10:33 PM) Thusness: it is raw and bare attention.
(10:33 PM) Thusness: and 'self' is an image
(10:33 PM) Thusness: it is about content
(10:34 PM) Thusness: therefore when one is raw and imageless, yet there is knowing
(10:34 PM) Thusness: when this experience is sustained, there is absolutely no sense of self at all.
(10:34 PM) Thusness: this is the first level
(10:35 PM) Thusness: but there is still no experience of non-duality level of no-self
(10:35 PM) Thusness: until the manifestation alone is understood as really the source itself.
(10:35 PM) Thusness: 🙂
(10:36 PM) Thusness: then not only is mirror bright is fully understood, the breaking of the mirror is also understood.
(10:36 PM) Thusness: so this is only part of what i have always said.
(10:36 PM) Thusness: i always say there are 3 stages
(10:37 PM) Thusness: no-self, emptiness, spontaneous arising
(10:37 PM) Thusness: no-self is non-duality
(10:37 PM) Thusness: then emptiness
(10:37 PM) Thusness: u notice from beginning till now, i have always said that our nature is no where to be found.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: no who
(10:38 PM) Thusness: and no when.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: nothing like that
(10:38 PM) Thusness: when i said emptiness, it is always so and when condition arise, manifestation is.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: this is the emptiness i am toking about.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: nothing about complete perfect...
(10:39 PM) Thusness: i don't like to use these terms.
(10:39 PM) Thusness: have u seen me using such terms?
(10:40 PM) Thusness: instead i always say it is not that great
(10:40 PM) Thusness: 🙂
(10:40 PM) AEN: but complete perfect is just used to explained there is no need to attain anything right
(10:40 PM) Thusness: precisely
(10:40 PM) Thusness: there is no attainment. 🙂
(10:41 PM) Thusness: because we are free from beginning and there is no origination and there is no-self
(10:41 PM) Thusness: it is more of suffering when we 'seek'
(10:41 PM) Thusness: there is nothing inside nor outside
(10:41 PM) Thusness: nothing about complete or incomplete
(10:42 PM) Thusness: can we say the fire is in the matchstick?
(10:42 PM) Thusness: or the 'tree' is in a seed?
(10:42 PM) Thusness: this is viewing 'entity'
(10:42 PM) Thusness: and not understanding the importance of conditions
(10:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: emptiness is supposed to break this view.
... 
 
 
    badge icon
    In hearing always only sound, no hearer. Sound is also empty of inherent existence.
    Sentient beings do not recognise the nature of appearance, misapprehends sound as object or “other”, misapprehends knowingness or awareness into self or a knower.
    Sounds and all other appearances are therefore are not perceived in its suchness. So samsara rolls on. Under ignorance one never has direct intimate luminous taste of a sound or a sight, nor its true nature as empty clarity.
    So in a sense yes we can say, it is just all these appearances we perceive that exhibits the truth of empty clarity, but their nature is not recognised and thus are misapprehended in terms of knower and knowable objects.
    2

    • Reply
    • 23h
    • Edited

    Author
    Back to my question... If sound is only hearing and if it just so simple, why do everyone think that there is a hearer?

    • Reply
    • 6h

  • Author
    Here's a koan : If there is no duality, where do the subject comes from?

    • Reply
    • 6h

  • badge icon
    Ignorance. Beginningless process of ignorance

    • Reply
    • 6h

  • Author
    Where do Ignorance comes from?

    • Reply
    • 6h
    • Edited

  • badge icon
    santa100
    Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?
    Quote
    Post Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:53 am
    They condition each other. From the same sutta:
    MN 9 wrote:
    And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering—this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance. With the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view…right concentration.
    And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are these three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being, and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
    And Ven. Bodhi's note:
    It should be noted that while ignorance is a condition for the taints, the taints—which include the taint of ignorance—are in turn a condition for ignorance. MA says that this conditioning of ignorance by ignorance should be understood to mean that the ignorance in any one existence is conditioned by the ignorance in the preceding existence. Since this is so, the conclusion follows that no first point can be discovered for ignorance, and thus that saṁsāra is without discernible beginning.

    • Reply
    • 6h

  • badge icon
    aṅguttara nikāya
    the book of the tens
    61. Ignorance
    “Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.
    “I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
    “Thus not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up lack of faith. Lack of faith, becoming full, fills up careless attention. Careless attention, becoming full, fills up lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fills up non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, becoming full, fill up the five hindrances. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
    “Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma…. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
    “I say, bhikkhus, that (1) true knowledge and liberation have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for true knowledge and liberation? It should be said: (2) the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the seven factors of enlightenment? It should be said: (3) the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the four establishments of mindfulness? It should be said: (4) the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of good conduct? It should be said: (5) restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: (6) mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: (7) careful attention. Careful attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careful attention? It should be said: (8) faith. Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: (9) hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: (10) associating with good persons.
    “Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.
    “Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma…. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.”

    • Reply
    • 6h

  • badge icon
    Thirty
    Tiṁsa Sutta (SN 15:13)
    NAVIGATIONSuttas/SN/15:13
    Now on that occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Forest, the Squirrels’ Sanctuary. Then thirty monks from Pāva—all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all cast-off rag wearers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.
    Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, “These thirty monks from Pāva… are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from effluents?”
    So he addressed the monks: “Monks.”
    “Yes, lord,” the monks responded.
    The Blessed One said, “From an inconceivable beginning comes the wandering-on. A beginning point is not discernible, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?”
    “As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.”
    “Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.
    “This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.
    “The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
    “The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off… when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off… when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off… when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off… when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off… when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
    “The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off… when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
    “Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes the wandering-on. A beginning point is not discernible, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries—enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”
    That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One’s words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pāva—through lack of clinging—were released from effluents.

    • Reply
    • 6h

  • Author
    Something must come from something mah... isn't that D.O.? How can be beginningless? What caused the primordial ignorance - one that has perpetuated to what is now global and widespread ignorance of 7 billion beings on this planet. Did Eve ate an apple from the Tree of Knowledge and caused this downfall?

    • Reply
    • 6h
    • Edited

  • badge icon
    If there were a beginning, that would completely contradict dependent origination. Precisely because everything depends on causes and conditions, there can be no beginning. This is why cosmologically speaking, Buddhism cannot accept big bang as the ultimate beginning, and many scientists now accept the model of cyclical universes.
    1

  • Reply
  • 6h
 
 
 
0 Responses