Comments by Soh: Provisionally tracing back all thoughts and perceptions to the Source via Self-Enquiry is important as the first step in one's practice to realise the I AM. This is taught in many direct path teachings, not only in AtR, not only in Advaita but also in various forms in Zen, Dzogchen, and other traditions of Buddhism, etc. But at a later phase, one moves on from self enquiry (see Flawed Mode of Enquiry) and realises the emptiness of source/awareness/mind/etc, empties and exhausts even source/awareness/mind/rigpa/etc (related: Exhaustion of All Phenomena, Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta, The Degrees of Rigpa etc)

Session Start: Friday, 2 October, 2009

(Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, Rainbow Painting: "All our thoughts come out of the buddha nature as its expression, like rays of sunlight emanate from the sun. It is not that the sun comes out of the rays.")

(7:53 PM) Thusness:    Tulku Urgyen makes a good statement but that is before understanding stage 5 and 6.
(7:53 PM) Thusness:    that is without the source, nothing happens
(7:55 PM) Thusness:    However in Buddhism, insight is to see, penetrate and investigate and become thoroughly clear that the idea of a source, an essence is unnecessary.  Once you experience and arise the insight of anatta, u begin open to happening without source, without the need of an essence.
(7:56 PM) Thusness:    This is then the beginning of Buddhism.

(11:51 PM) AEN:
still there
(11:52 PM) AEN:    i go update the link

(12:01 AM) AEN:
(12:04 AM) AEN:    oh ya btw vajrahridaya and some others think tulku urgyen writings is prone to advaita
u read the 'as it is' right? what u tink
(12:04 AM) Thusness:    yeah
i commented
(12:04 AM) AEN:    oic where
(12:05 AM) Thusness:    to u...i said that is only true when one after non-dual experience still rest in a subject-object view.
(12:07 AM) AEN:    oic...
(12:08 AM) Thusness:    however if one thoroughly eliminates the agent through the insight of anatta, then the practitioner will not make such a remark.  He will gradually move into the dependent origination and no-self.  To know the breadth and depth of no-self, be willing to drop also the view and replace it with DO.  Rest on a view that requires no source and essence.
(12:09 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:03 AM) AEN:    i read that tulku urgyen rinpoche has a literal take of the shentong view.. his view is inclined to shentong
(1:03 AM) AEN:    btw it's fine to talk about source right? i mean The Supreme Source talks about it.... but i think its different from other non-buddhist views?
(1:04 AM) Thusness:    talking about the source is okie but ur understanding of how things are interdependent without a source.
(1:04 AM) Thusness:    when u hear sound
do u say awareness is the source?
(1:05 AM) Thusness:    or when u hit a bell, the bell is the source of the sound?
or the stick?
(1:05 AM) AEN:    the supreme source seems to state that consciousness is the source of everything but at the same time it says all manifestations are the display of me (consciousness)... so it doesnt dualify source/manifestation i think
(1:06 AM) Thusness:    there is no duality and there is no effort in the supreme source
(1:06 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:06 AM) Thusness:    what i want u to know is to eliminate the entire idea of a source
(1:07 AM) Thusness:    but that comes after non-dual and u really feel like awareness is the source of everything even after non-dual realization, u felt that awareness is the source
(1:07 AM) Thusness:    experience is non-dual, even after realization, there is still an idea of a source
why is this so?
(1:08 AM) Thusness:    why can't we eliminate the idea of a source even after the experience of anatta?
(1:08 AM) Thusness:    clearly there is no agent
thought after thought without an agent
a thinker
(1:09 AM) Thusness:    in complete clarity we see this
yet the idea of a source still persist
(1:09 AM) Thusness:    this is why i meant desync of view and experience
therefore replace the view
(1:10 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:12 AM) Thusness:    kok ur head...since when did i say dharma dan is an arhant
(1:12 AM) Thusness:    i said his insight is deep and profound
(1:13 AM) AEN:    icic..
(1:13 AM) Thusness:    and many practitioners are not his level
(1:13 AM) AEN:    oic..
(1:13 AM) Thusness:    i believe I nv said he is an arahat
(1:14 AM) Thusness:    even ajahn chah, i never said i think he is an arahat
(1:14 AM) Thusness:    i nv said anyone is an arhat. 😛
(1:14 AM) AEN:    lol
(1:16 AM) Thusness:    i am never interested in others attainment
i merely tell u, the depth of his insight
(1:16 AM) Thusness:    how will that help u in a practical sense
(1:17 AM) AEN:    oic..
(3:36 AM) AEN:    Come to think of it now, why didn't I become like a blind and deaf person right away? "Blind and deaf" here means a state of mind where there is nothing to see and nothing to hear. When you see, there's only the seeing, and the subject
that sees doesn't exist. When you hear, there's only the hearing, and the subject that hears doesn't exist. The objects which are seen or heard are, just as they are, without substance. But understanding the logic of this will not do. When this is realized as a fact, you become like a "blind and deaf" person.
...The point is why the person inside the hermitage (subject) cannot see the things "in front of the hermitage" (object). That's because there isn't anything in front of the hermitage. You may say that there is only the subject, there being no object at all. Yet, in actual truth, that "subject" doesn't exist either.
(3:36 AM) AEN:    
    The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.

The water runs smoothly, the flowers are colored scarlet. This line seems to imply that there are only the objects and there's no subject at all. However, as a matter of fact, those objects do not exist at all.
It's simply that the water is running smoothly, and flowers are scarlet. Everything is just as it is [tada korekore], and everything is void as it is
now [arugamama no aritsubure]. The fact that there is no distinction between self and others simply continues without end - "The water flows of itself and the flowers are naturally red.".
(3:47 AM) AEN:

Session Start: Saturday, 3 October, 2009

(3:03 PM) AEN:    i asked namdrol "Just to clarify: in your understanding, all Mahayana and Vajrayana sutras/tantras come from realized masters other than Buddha?" he replied "Yup."
(10:32 PM) Thusness:    That is zen enlightenment. 🙂
stage 5.
(10:34 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:38 PM) AEN:    my mom said lzls hopes i can discontinue posting in forum cos she scared my guan nian (concept) not v clear yet 😛 and she wants to know who is john (you) lol... cos that guy i brought to ren cheng last time told her about it
i mean lzls wants to know who r u
(10:38 PM) AEN:    now i dun feel like meeting her 😛 dunnu what to say haha
(10:39 PM) Thusness:    lol
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    she wants to meet u then u don't want to meet her?
(10:41 PM) AEN:    no la
but i mean i dunnu how to explain
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    ahahah
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    go get a phd.
(10:44 PM) Thusness:    u can start pursuing a diploma first then step by step so that u know what is true and right understanding.
(10:44 PM) Thusness:    her understanding is advaita sort of understanding
(10:44 PM) AEN:    yeah
(10:47 PM) Thusness:    at present, her knowledge is not there to guide u into correct understanding
(10:47 PM) Thusness:    and u already have some experiences of non-dual and right views, it is better u pursue ur own in the right direction.
(10:48 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:48 PM) AEN:    anyway i dun feel like going hahaha... some more she is asking that my mom and dad come along also
(10:50 PM) Thusness:    u told ur parents?
(10:50 PM) AEN:    i told my mom i dont feel like going 😛 but i din say i wont go la
(10:50 PM) Thusness:    i mean is ur parent worried?
(10:51 PM) AEN:    my mom told me she's not worried about u haha... she more worried about my link with truth 😛 lzls dunnu say something like truth caused some trouble at the vihara side
and i tink not v into ren cheng or something... din get what she said
(10:52 PM) AEN:    weird lor i dun even know anything about it
(10:52 PM) Thusness:    meaning about the teaching?
(10:53 PM) AEN:    i also dunnu what happen. i dunnu what 'trouble' he caused la
he's still quite into ren cheng but now he is v into vipassana also
(10:53 PM) Thusness:    yes i told him to practice vipassana
(10:53 PM) AEN:    icic
he went to goenka vipassana retreats many times
and said he is v impressed
(10:53 PM) Thusness:    yeah
that is good
it is important to have the right understanding
(10:54 PM) Thusness:    with the right practice
(10:54 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:55 PM) Thusness:    u must have clear understanding and confidence first
(10:56 PM) Thusness:    in ur view, r u confident with ur understanding?
(10:56 PM) AEN:    yea
(10:57 PM) Thusness:    can u see clearly the various phases of experiences and insights?
(10:57 PM) AEN:    yah guess so
(10:58 PM) Thusness:    do u see how buddha is not talking about Eternal Witness?
(10:59 PM) AEN:    yea
(10:59 PM) Thusness:    even non-dual
(10:59 PM) AEN:    ya
(11:00 PM) Thusness:    what buddha is talking is have direct experience of non-dual and with the right view, so that insight can arise
(11:01 PM) Thusness:    anatta and DO is most important
(11:02 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    understand the 3 characteristics, understand dispassion, arise insight of anatta and DO and go on with ur life. 🙂
(11:03 PM) Thusness:    many teachers do not have clear understanding
(11:03 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:04 PM) Thusness:    same goes for ur lzls, she worries too much
but is not exactly wrong
(11:04 PM) Thusness:    however it is difficult for her to guide u now
(11:04 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:06 PM) Thusness:    but good and bad
(11:06 PM) AEN:    the reason why lzls worries is also bcos i v seldom talk with her
(11:07 PM) Thusness:    i do not know whether u can find one person that satisfy ur understanding of insight now
(11:07 PM) AEN:    u lor 😛 hahahaha
(11:07 PM) Thusness:    so u must experience urself directly
(11:07 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness:    i am not an authoritative teacher, so at best as a friend that share with u my experiences
(11:09 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:09 PM) Thusness:    so u have to have ur own experience and find a good teacher that has gone through the various phases of insights
(11:09 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness:    at least until phase 5 of insight
(11:10 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness:    however one might still miss certain point
why do i stressed ignorance
(11:11 PM) Thusness:    normally those Advaita or Zen practitioners disregard DO.
(11:11 PM) Thusness:    disregard ignorance
but ignorance is DO
(11:11 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:12 PM) Thusness:    wisdom is DO
(11:12 PM) Thusness:    if u do not understand, then u r thinking of an essence
(11:12 PM) Thusness:    u will not know how manifestation dependently originates
(11:13 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:15 PM) Thusness:    there will be many that reads my phases of insights but will not understand
(11:15 PM) Thusness:    they will not be able to correctly discern non-dual from anatta
just like u 2 yrs back
(11:15 PM) Thusness:    u r not clear about phase 4 and 5
(11:16 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    mike is not clear too
(11:16 PM) AEN:    yea he tot its same haha
(11:17 PM) Thusness:    but the past few posts u wrote, i can see that u r understanding with clarity the difference now
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    then u must be able to rest ur view entirely on DO so they u r able to see the 'logic' of DO, without a source, an essence together with ur experience from the arising insight of anatta, u will be able to appreciate the teaching of Buddha better.
(11:20 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:21 PM) AEN:    btw do u think D.O. without source is contradictory with the stuff written in The Supreme Source? as long as the source is understood as individual and not a universal essence that's fine right?

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