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    William Kong
    Author
    Tyler Jones Soh Wei Yu
    > Aditya in terms of benefit on the path, what jhanas do is purify your system of imprints. Even with insight, you still need to clear the system of all residual imprints for total enlightenment. In Dzogchen, this is done with generation stage, completion state, and thogal practices. In sutra, it is done with jhana in addition to insight.
    This part of the convo piqued my interest ... I have not seen anything in AtR regarding purifying residual imprints (which is essentially identical to questions re handling emotional issues) - it seems the main key is to get the view down, and the purification happens on its own by resting in anatta and DO.
    Thoughts?
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    Tyler Jones
    From what I've seen, JT has some characteristically detailed instructions on what to do post anatta/emptiness realization that would count as purifying residual imprints, details about how exactly to direct the attention beyond "rest in anatta", details about fearlessness, luminosity, spontaneity, plus how to refine the view further using MMK reasoning and looking into how the sense of self arises, and also recommends energy practice. But Soh def can speak to that far better than I.
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Tyler Jones
    John Tan's ten points to William Kong which triggered his anatta realization also contains a lot of wisdom about post-anatta:
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-post...
    [7:54 AM, 6/3/2021] John Tan: Not bad. He should relook these insights and experiences and ask the following:
    1. If everything is me, then the sense of "me" must also disappear at that moment of experience. Otherwise one must mature the experience into no-mind and then anatta as an insight.
    2. If later it is realized that there is no me/self/Self as an insight and experience (anatta), then one must refine the view and question how does the sense of me/self/Self arise in the first place?
    3. Then bring this insight from the refinement of view into all phenomena and all actions.
    4. Therefore not only there is no seer in the seen just the seen, there is no seeing and nothing seen. No self, no others and no aggregates.
    5. If this is understood only as negations, then one is not free from extremes and all elaborations.
    6. Therefore conventionally, there is self, others, seer, seeing and seen. There are causes and effects. There is arising, abiding and ceasing and the only valid mode of arising is dependent arising.
    7. Point 1, 2, 3 praxis is on samatha and vipassana. Direct experience and insights. To mature this insight of anatta, the path of analysis is needed.
    8. Point 4-6 thorough reasoning and analysis is added to relinquish cognitive obscuration.
    9. If he is interested, he should look into mmk (Nagarjuna's text Mūlamadhyamakakārikā), it will expose the many hidden nuances and subtleties of our cognitive obscurations. Patience is needed to get used to the line of reasoning of Nagarjuna. But no need to get involved in those polemics of the Tibetan schools.
    [8:08 AM, 6/3/2021] John Tan: 10. Lastly one should understand the praxis of the 2 stanzas and mmk are different. The 2 stanzas are using samatha and vipassana to directly see through mental constructs to realize one's nature (direct path) whereas mmk is via path of analysis and reasoning. So when reading mmk, one must adhere strictly to the conventional 3 fold structure of seer-seeing-seen. See through the structures and deconstruct step by step. The ultimate purpose and result are the same except mmk exposes all the very subtle and hidden cognitives obscurations that we are unable even post anatta insight. So if one is interested in bringing anatta insight to maturity and perfection, mmk is needed.
    Anatta and Post-Anatta, MMK, etc
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Anatta and Post-Anatta, MMK, etc
    Anatta and Post-Anatta, MMK, etc
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    Tyler Jones
    Soh, wow! Great to have all that in one place. But since it was William himself asking about residual imprints, is there anything else that strikes you to share that JT has said about post-anatta, about luminosity, spontaneity, total exertion, or energy practice, that would be relevant to the question of residual imprints?

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    William Kong defines residual imprints in terms of emotional issues. Actually as you know, there are not just one but two residual imprints: the afflictive obscuration and the knowledge obscurations. The prior is related of clinging to 'self' while the latter is clinging to 'phenomena'. The antidote is the full realization and actualization of anatman of self [person] and shunyata of phenomena for the two obscurations respectively.
    Without thorough twofold emptying, even after anatta, phenomena appears vividly real, arising and ceasing, having substantially existent cause and effect relationship, mind and matter, subtle subject-action-object structures etc.. rather than empty and illusory and free from extremes. When you have known the dharmata or nature of all phenomena and exhausted all phenomena thoroughly, that is omniscience/Buddhahood, as you have known the nature of all knowables and exhausted them [which does not mean a nihilistic state without appearances - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../exhaustion-of... ]. So going into MMK is important post-anatta to liberate the subtle cognitive obscurations.
    As for liberating the afflictions, traditionally for all traditions even right from Theravada it is the three trainings, samatha and vipasyana together that liberates afflictions. If you lack insight into anatman you cannot liberate afflictions. If you lack training in meditative equipoise or samadhi that is also insufficient.
    “The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
    Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.
    The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019
    “Only Buddhas rest in prajñā at all times, because they rest in “samati” which is an unfragmented samādhi which directly cognizes the nature of phenomena at all times.
    The rest of us do our best to cultivate concentration, dhyāna, which then will lead to samādhi, and after time we will awaken to have the awakened equipoise which comes about due to our samādhi being infused with prajñā. However due to latent obscurations that awakened equipoise will be unstable and our prajñā will be fragmented. The more we access awakened equipoise however, the more karma in the form of kleśa and vāsanā will be burned away, and as a result, the more obscurations will be removed and diminished. The path is precisely eliminating those obscurations, the afflictive obscuration that conceives of a self and the cognitive obscuration that conceives of external objects. Buddhas have completely eliminated these two obscurations and as a result their samādhi is samati, a transcendent state of awakened equipoise beyond the three times.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
    "If you practice effectively and begin to have instances of awakened, nonconceptual equipoise of a yogic direct perception of emptiness, then you will encounter what is called prajñā, which is the transcendent and ecstatic knowledge of emptiness that occurs while in awakened equipoise. Prajñā is forceful and bright and actually involuntarily “burns” away kelśas just by virtue of its nature. As such, if you cultivate awakened equipoise, then each time you establish a samādhi infused with prajñā, more and more kleśas will be exhausted, and with them, the seeds for afflictive states of mind and negative emotions.
    You will still be able to have positive emotions, but overall you will actually end up establishing a state of equanimity where you will be pretty even all the time, content and undisturbed.
    With that your compassion will naturally increase, because compassion is actually an innate property of the nature of mind.
    The prajñā or “wisdom” of suchness/emptiness that knows the actual nature of phenomena, manifests once the knowledge obscuration that misconceives of an inherent identity or "self" in phenomena is exhausted as a result of authentic awakening. The direct realization of an absence of self in persons and phenomena is then the basis of compassion, as noted in the Sangs rgyas gsang ba'i lam rim:
    Being empty, it is always devoid of attributes, and free from the clinging to the notion of self. Therefore, the suchness upon seeing this forms the basis for the arising of compassion.
    Padampa Sangye concurs:
    When you realize emptiness, it would be absurd to do anything negative. When you realize emptiness, compassion arises with it simultaneously." - Kyle Dixon, 2021
    "Nice explanation. Meido Moore, who is a Rinzai Zen master says the same, he writes:
    'From a practice standpoint, the crucial point is contained in the words, "one should just constantly activate correct views in one’s own mind." This has nothing to do with theoretical certainty that defilements are empty and do not bind; it refers to the seamless, sustained upwelling of the unity of samadhi/prajna. Departing from but then returning to this, again and again, describes the post-awakening practice to dissolve jikke.
    If one experiences departure from this samadhi, even for a moment, the path is not completed at all. If one does not know what is actually meant by that samadhi, then even with kensho the path is still barely begun in terms of actualization.'
    This process, dovetailing the “sudden” and “gradual” is identical for Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā as well." - Kyle Dixon, 2021
    Exhaustion of All Phenomena
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Exhaustion of All Phenomena
    Exhaustion of All Phenomena

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         · 44m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Session Start: Sunday, 3 April, 2011
    ⁠
    (8:04 PM) AEN: hi
    sent u the draft
    idea of AF - sorry i mean 'ideal of AF"
    (8:13 PM) Thusness: will tell u a few points to make
    anyway what do u mean by ideal of AF?
    (8:14 PM) AEN: as in freedom from those emotions
    (8:16 PM) Thusness: hmm... u mean ur mail is about in freedom from those emotions?
    (8:17 PM) AEN: huh
    no i mean the AF ideal of gaining freedom from those emotions is actually nothing special to AF
    cos he said its special to AF
    ⁠
    (8:27 PM) Thusness: just finished eating durian...
    coz i am already going to get sick...lol
    ur understanding is incorrect
    (8:28 PM) AEN: lol
    oic..
    take care
    (8:29 PM) Thusness: removing the fetters is not to say no-emotion and be like a machine...
    Through compassion u can also remove fetters
    in the Theravada model, how are u to remove the 3 poisons?
    ????
    (8:32 PM) AEN: through insight, tranquillity, dispassion
    (8:33 PM) Thusness: so what is lacking in the 7 phases of insight?
    (8:35 PM) AEN: the 7 phases of insight are focused on the insight portion
    but i guess dispassion should arise after emptiness?
    (8:36 PM) Thusness: it helps
    so in addition to that, u must also practice samadhi
    for tranquility and calm
    (8:36 PM) AEN: i see
    richard no longer practices meditation
    but apparently he has very stable samadhi
    (8:37 PM) Thusness: yeah
    no
    (8:37 PM) AEN: cos he report utter stillness as his usual experience
    and having no imagination, daydream, or even dream at night, etc
    (8:37 PM) Thusness: that is incorrect
    (8:37 PM) AEN: oic
    (8:37 PM) Thusness: do not think this way
    and apply wrong medicine for different purposes
    (8:38 PM) AEN: ic..
    can u give example of what u mean by wrong medicine for different purpose
    (8:40 PM) Thusness: now first how do u understand "feelings"?
    (8:45 PM) AEN: in buddhist definition or af definition
    (8:45 PM) Thusness: both
    (8:53 PM) AEN: in buddhism, feeling is a sensate perception of unpleasantness, pleasantness, or neutrality... arising dependent on the contact of sense organ, sense object, and sense consciousness
    as such it is not an affective, afflictive mental state on its own
    in actualism, feeling is defined as an imaginary, affective feeling inseparably linked with the sense of self, which is the cause of all the malice, war, hatred, etc in the world and must be eradicated for true freedom
    (8:54 PM) Thusness: not bad. 🙂⁠
    what is ur own?
    (8:57 PM) AEN: i use the terms differently depending on who i am speaking to 😛 i just follow their lingo
    but i dun really see that for example... a feeling is non-existent and the actual world is existent
    (8:57 PM) AEN: i see feeling, sensations, emotions, etc as all manifestations... not substantial but undeniably arising
    emotions have a lot to do with our false constructs of self, others, etc... so in that sense those afflictive emotions are indeed 'imagined' and when we practice vipassana we strip ourselves of those constructs
    (9:02 PM) Thusness: if u have 'contact', u have feelings
    (9:02 PM) Thusness: so u must understand the sensations that arise with these contacts
    if u mixed the 2, then u cannot clearly see what u r going to resolve.
    now if u do not have senses and body, what is 'feelings'?
    (9:04 PM) AEN: there cannot be feelings without sense and body
    (9:05 PM) Thusness: then what are u stripping?
    (9:06 PM) AEN: the thought constructed self and world
    via insight
    (9:06 PM) Thusness: so have i answered ur question?
    (9:11 PM) AEN: dont really get what u trying to say..
    (9:12 PM) Thusness: u said u cannot not not have feelings if there is contact and body
    and it is stripping the thought constructed self and world via insight
    (9:13 PM) AEN: but the feeling in buddhist sense and af sense is different
    (9:13 PM) Thusness: doesn't matter
    it is what it is
    (9:14 PM) AEN: feeling in buddhist sense is not emotions
    (9:14 PM) Thusness: it is not what is it being defined
    (9:14 PM) AEN: af sense is like aversion, desire, fear, etc
    Regarding the relationship between vedana and "emotions," American-born Theravada teacher Bhikkhu Bodhi has written:
    ⁠
    "The Pali word vedana does not signify emotion (which appears to be a complex phenomenon involving a variety of concomitant mental factors), but the bare affective quality of an experience, which may be either pleasant, painful or neutral."[12]
    ⁠
    Similarly, Oxford-trained Vajrayana teacher Trungpa Rinpoche has written:
    ⁠
    "In this case 'feeling' is not quite our ordinary notion of feeling. It is not the feeling we take so seriously as, for instance, when we say, 'He hurt my feelings.' This kind of feeling that we take so seriously belongs to the fourth and fifth skandhas of concept and consciousness."[13]

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (9:14 PM) Thusness: no i am refering to u
    that if u want to be free, what must u c
    ur duty is not to to argue but truly see and liberates
    (9:15 PM) AEN: ic..
    (9:16 PM) Thusness: if u argue with af and in wrongly identify the wrong cause, then what are u solving?
    that is applying wrong medicine
    (9:16 PM) AEN: oic..
    (9:17 PM) Thusness: if AF is not seeing feeling as feeling and ignorance as ignorance, then what is being solved?
    (9:17 PM) Thusness: what is important is the clarity, not who define what
    if i tell u that a background truly exist and tell u to get rid of it, r u able to do it?
    or are u fighting against illusion?
    (9:18 PM) AEN: ic..
    (9:19 PM) Thusness: if i define a truly existing background as such and such and tell u to get rid of such and such, do u think because i define in such a way, therefore i have to get rid in such a way?
    and it will work?
    (9:20 PM) AEN: it wont work
    (9:20 PM) Thusness: i am not saying anything against the practice of AF, i am saying can u see what is it first.
    do u get what i mean?
    r u currently mistaking certain sensation of fear as 'fear'?
    (9:22 PM) AEN: hmm u mean af is trying to posit a self to be removed? but in af view, being and feelings are imaginary, illusory and non-existent, only the actual world is existing
    (9:22 PM) Thusness: are u trying to get rid of certain unpleasant sensations?
    (9:24 PM) AEN: ic.. yeah when i ground all feelings to its sensate level there is only sensations and not emotions. there is bodily sensations, maybe tense, maybe adrenaline, but no emotions at all. only when we buy imagine that our emotions are real that we try to get rid of it
    (9:28 PM) Thusness: when there is Self/self'is there fear?
    (9:29 PM) AEN: yes
    without Self/self, there is no fear, only in seeing just the seen
    (9:30 PM) Thusness: therefore u r applying wrong medicine again
    that is what i say not understanding clearly
    what is the wrong understanding about?
    (9:31 PM) AEN: i have noticed that even horror movies can become not scary if one only sees shapes and images and not cling to a sense of self
    wrong understanding is seeing a Self/self as real
    ?
    dun get whatu mean
    (9:32 PM) Thusness: even if u see Self as real, does fear arise?
    (9:32 PM) AEN: not all the time
    (9:33 PM) Thusness: so what has that got to do with Self?
    or self?
    (10:01 PM) Thusness: what is fear associated with?
    (10:03 PM) AEN: insecurity
    (10:03 PM) Thusness: ahhahaha
    horrible
    (10:03 PM) AEN: 😛⁠
    (10:03 PM) Thusness: now then u see
    (10:04 PM) AEN: what i meant though is that without the sense of self there cannot be insecurity cos insecurity is inseparably linked with a sense of self
    (10:05 PM) Thusness: no
    u still din get it
    i have already told if Self is infinite and independent and unchanging, there is no fear
    that is what Advaita Vedanta about
    that is what all substantial non-dual is about
    (10:07 PM) AEN: if there is sense of self, there might not be fear
    but where there is fear, there must be sense of self
    (10:08 PM) Thusness: no
    (10:08 PM) AEN: there can be a sense of self there and he feels very 'secure'
    so the sense of security and insecurity are both affective feelings related to sense of self
    (10:09 PM) Thusness: that is incorrect
    it is link to attachment of what that is impermanent
    that is fear is associated with 'loss' of what u treasured
    (10:10 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:10 PM) Thusness: the stronger the attachment, the stronger the fear
    (10:11 PM) AEN: ic..

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (10:13 PM) Thusness: so what have u understood?
    (10:15 PM) AEN: fear has to do with attachment and loss.. has to do with sense of ownership
    (10:17 PM) Thusness: why then by clearing seeing the dharma, fear is being relinquished?
    (10:18 PM) Thusness: what is the other way of realizing besides seeing the truth that Self is ultimate?
    (10:20 PM) AEN: what is the other way of of realizing besides seeing the truth that Self is ultimate? --> the realization of anatta?
    (10:20 PM) Thusness: the full embracement of anatta and DO
    (10:23 PM) AEN: why then by clearing seeing the dharma, fear is being relinguished? --> by seeing the nature of dharma as insubstantial and self-liberating... every fear and sense of self and sense of ownership self releases without trace, the future is unarisen and unconditioned by anything, the present is fresh, natural, unconstructed... fear, insecurity, and so on is self-liberated
    (10:25 PM) Thusness: u may be see it so but what u have to do is to directly experience so that ur insight is refined. That by being fully non-dual (anatta), even there is continuous passing away, it is experienced as self-releasing
    that is even if there is continuity, there is fear due to impermanent.
    it has nothing to do with Self/self, but the nature of experiential reality.
    (10:27 PM) AEN: that is even if there is continuity, there is fear due to impermanent. --> what u mean?
    (10:29 PM) Thusness: means even when one realizes that things continue, one will still fear due to impermanence because there is inherent sensation
    (10:33 PM) AEN: u mean 'continuously passing away', there is still fear
    *when one realizes that things continuously pass away, one still fears
    (10:34 PM) Thusness: when things continuously passes away, how can there not be fear?
    (10:40 PM) AEN: the self releasing aspect must be experienced. u mean
    for there to be fearlessness
    ⁠
    (10:43 PM) Thusness: when there is no 'you', just impermanence.
    that is, if u want to understand 'fear', must understand it with right understanding
    That is if there is true permanent and there is impermanence
    get it?
    if u have no understanding and clarity, then whatever practices will be fruitless.
    (10:49 PM) AEN: u mean one must understand how fear arises when one thinks there is something permanent and when one sees impermanence?
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: now talk about anger
    if there is no ego, will there be anger?
    (10:59 PM) AEN: hmm
    i dont think so
    (11:06 PM) AEN: what u think
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: if u hold on too tightly, do u not face anger?
    if AF actualist hold on to richard's teaching too tightly, anger too will arise.
    if u hold on to Buddha's teaching too tightly, u too will get angry when buddhism is being challenged
    if ur mum disturb ur schedule, ur flow of thoughts, ur plans, u will get angry
    anything held tightly and inherently
    (11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:14 PM) Thusness: ahah...lastime felt insulted. 😛⁠
    (11:21 PM) AEN: lol
    (11:22 PM) Thusness: so have u understood why the right understanding is important
    u must clearly see impermanence
    then no-self and DO make sense
    (11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:25 PM) Thusness: if Self is permanent and does not dependently originate, u should teach abiding in Self.
    (11:30 PM) AEN: ic..
    (11:34 PM) AEN: lol
    lastime wants to meet me
    (11:35 PM) Thusness: eh? he is a singaporean?
    (11:35 PM) AEN: yea
    (11:35 PM) Thusness: ic
    ⁠
    (11:51 PM) Thusness: anyway don't tell anyone about ur family background...that is life wisdom
    (11:51 PM) AEN: ic..
    (11:53 PM) Thusness: as for u, do some meditation to improve ur samadhi.
    (11:53 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:53 PM) Thusness: anyway we are going to be neighbour next year lol.
    (11:54 PM) AEN: haha yeah..
    (11:59 PM) AEN: so
    anger is conditioned by clinging... fear is conditioned by insecurity, attachment to things, possession, and thus fearing their loss. and the remedy is to see clearly the impermanent and self releasing nature of reality?
    (12:02 AM) Thusness: one is about what we treasured is put in jeopardy and the other is what we treasured is put in challenged.
    what i want u to see is the experience and realization is because whatever arises is due to impermanence
    otherwise what taught will be simply clinging to permanent Self.
    if we din see that, then we are not correctly understanding the teaching
    u do not teach no-self when there is a permanent Self.
    in the Buddhist sense
    Buddha will be teaching non-dual, not anatta and DO.
    (12:07 AM) AEN: ic..
    i realised padmasambhava's 'the three consideration' in self-liberation through seeing with naked awareness is v impt... the introduction to awareness is actually an introduction to the experience of self liberation. he said:
    The Three Considerations
    ⁠
    The following is the introduction [to the means of experiencing] this [single] nature [of mind]
    through the application of three considerations.
    [First, recognize that] past thoughts are traceless, clear, and empty.
    [Second, recognize that] future thoughts are unproduced and fresh,
    And [third, recognize that] the present moment abides naturally and unconstructed.
    When this ordinary, momentary consciousness is examined nakedly [and directly] by oneself,
    upon examination, it is a radiant awareness,
    which is free from the presence of an observer,
    manifestly stark and clear,
    completely empty and uncreated in all respects,
    lucid without duality of radiance and emptiness,
    not permanent, for it is lacking inherent existence in all respects,
    not a mere nothingness, for it is radiant and clear,
    not a single entity, for it is clearly perceptible as a multiplicity,
    yet not existing inherently as a multiplicity, for it is indivisible and of a single savour.
    This intrinsic awareness, which is not extraneously derived,
    is itself the genuine introduction to the abiding
    nature of [all] things.
    For in this intrinsic awareness the three Buddha bodies are inseparable and fully present as one.
    ⁠
    ⁠

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         · 39m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Session Start: Saturday, 26 March, 2011
    (10:47 AM) Soh Wei Yu: hi
    (10:53 AM) Soh Wei Yu: just now walking home
    i suddenly remembered when i was much younger i used to take a stroll walk along my neighbourhood
    and for that whole hour i was like walking in paradise
    i didnt know what to make of it then
    but now i realized it was a pce
    (10:59 AM) Soh Wei Yu: i was reading an article yesterday and richard says everyone had a pce in their life
    especially in childhood yet not everyone remembers it
    and i was doubting it
    but today i realized it must have been true
    (11:01 AM) Soh Wei Yu: u there?
    http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425816...
    i think weychin described the witness experience and also something like pce
    i think he experienced pce
    what u think
    (11:10 AM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Idle
    (11:14 AM) Thusness: Outside now
    (11:15 AM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Online
    (11:15 AM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    (11:33 AM) Thusness: No. There is no clarity in experience
    (11:39 AM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    The expansiveness and brilliancy of the collective perception
    makes normal sensation seem dull and heavy.
    sounds like intensity of luminosity?
    but there is no clear indication of it being a pce
    cos he didnt describe the abeyance of self
    (12:49 PM) Thusness: Yes
    (12:55 PM) Thusness: Anatta is the experience of in the seen, just the seen.
    Disjoint and supported is a further deconstruction of any inherent center.
    It is direct experience without any trace of a background free from reification
    Palm
    (12:58 PM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Online
    (1:03 PM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Idle
    (1:44 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (2:36 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hi
    (2:38 PM) Thusness: U din sleep?
    (2:38 PM) Soh Wei Yu: check ur mail
    oh i slept and woke up haha
    (2:42 PM) Thusness: Not very good. Reached hm then discuss with u
    (2:45 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ok
    (2:47 PM) Thusness is now Offline
    (2:47 PM) Thusness is now Online
    (3:15 PM) Thusness: now talk about insight and realization.
    looking back at ur practice...is insight important?
    (3:17 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    (3:18 PM) Thusness: in fact it is not ur practice of vipassana of observing sensations that lead u to the realization...
    ur experience is naturally vapassanic now
    (3:19 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yea
    (3:19 PM) Thusness: or ur experience is naturally pce
    it is just same experience but different terms
    richard and actualise call it pce... and what dharmaoverground call as vipassanic isn't 'bare' at all.
    (3:20 PM) Thusness: so let's come back to being naturally pce
    how is this so?
    do u practice?
    (3:21 PM) Soh Wei Yu: cant say i dont practice but pce isnt a state that is achieved by effort... its natural like u said
    (3:22 PM) Thusness: the primary cause comes from the arising insight of anatta
    not so much of practicing bare attention
    (3:23 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yea
    (3:23 PM) Thusness: it becomes seamlessly effortless due to the arising insight
    in ur moment to moment of experience, suddenly u do not experience so call 'feeling or passion' (in contrast to being like a 'rock' no feelings...😛) in actualism terms but simply pure experience
    (3:25 PM) Thusness: have u ever thought of 'feelings' or anything that is related to feelings to bring u into this experience?
    (3:27 PM) Soh Wei Yu: what do u mean
    no
    no feelings are present in pces...
    (3:28 PM) Thusness: so it is simply the 'insight' of anatta
    nothing to do with 'feelings'
    get it?
    (3:29 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    (3:31 PM) Thusness: for till now u have not practiced anything relating to inquring about 'feelings', yet under normal conditions, there is effortless pce that is free from 'passion and feelings'
    has is this so?
    also, u experience lessening thoughts or no thoughts
    just luminous manifestation
    or non-conceptual thought
    does that mean u have to practice no-thought?
    or having no-thought is 'key'
    so the primary cause is due to the arising insight
    u can have other supporting conditions
    like practicing bare attention
    (3:35 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    insight of anatta is key
    btw richard also says his practice isnt about suppressing feeling
    but eradicating the identity
    (3:36 PM) Thusness: that comes to the next question
    what is feeling without the feeler?
    there is always only feelings, no feeler
    then how does 'feelings' arise?
    (3:37 PM) Soh Wei Yu: via habitual tendencies
    (3:37 PM) Thusness: not only habitual tendencies
    but latent tendencies
    (3:37 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (3:38 PM) Thusness: i do not want u to talk about latent tendencies because actualism might not accept latent tendencies
    (3:38 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    BUDDHISM.SGFORUMS.COM
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         · 31m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Session Start: Saturday, 26 March, 2011
    (10:47 AM) Soh Wei Yu: hi
    (10:53 AM) Soh Wei Yu: just now walking home
    i suddenly remembered when i was much younger i used to take a stroll walk along my neighbourhood
    and for that whole hour i was like walking in paradise
    i didnt know what to make of it then
    but now i realized it was a pce
    (10:59 AM) Soh Wei Yu: i was reading an article yesterday and richard says everyone had a pce in their life
    especially in childhood yet not everyone remembers it
    and i was doubting it
    but today i realized it must have been true
    (11:01 AM) Soh Wei Yu: u there?
    http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/425816...
    i think weychin described the witness experience and also something like pce
    i think he experienced pce
    what u think
    (11:10 AM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Idle
    (11:14 AM) Thusness: Outside now
    (11:15 AM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Online
    (11:15 AM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    (11:33 AM) Thusness: No. There is no clarity in experience
    (11:39 AM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    The expansiveness and brilliancy of the collective perception
    makes normal sensation seem dull and heavy.
    sounds like intensity of luminosity?
    but there is no clear indication of it being a pce
    cos he didnt describe the abeyance of self
    (12:49 PM) Thusness: Yes
    (12:55 PM) Thusness: Anatta is the experience of in the seen, just the seen.
    Disjoint and supported is a further deconstruction of any inherent center.
    It is direct experience without any trace of a background free from reification
    Palm
    (12:58 PM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Online
    (1:03 PM) Soh Wei Yu has changed his/her status to Idle
    (1:44 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (2:36 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hi
    (2:38 PM) Thusness: U din sleep?
    (2:38 PM) Soh Wei Yu: check ur mail
    oh i slept and woke up haha
    (2:42 PM) Thusness: Not very good. Reached hm then discuss with u
    (2:45 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ok
    (2:47 PM) Thusness is now Offline
    (2:47 PM) Thusness is now Online
    (3:15 PM) Thusness: now talk about insight and realization.
    looking back at ur practice...is insight important?
    (3:17 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    (3:18 PM) Thusness: in fact it is not ur practice of vipassana of observing sensations that lead u to the realization...
    ur experience is naturally vapassanic now
    (3:19 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yea
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (3:19 PM) Thusness: or ur experience is naturally pce
    it is just same experience but different terms
    richard and actualise call it pce... and what dharmaoverground call as vipassanic isn't 'bare' at all.
    (3:20 PM) Thusness: so let's come back to being naturally pce
    how is this so?
    do u practice?
    (3:21 PM) Soh Wei Yu: cant say i dont practice but pce isnt a state that is achieved by effort... its natural like u said
    (3:22 PM) Thusness: the primary cause comes from the arising insight of anatta
    not so much of practicing bare attention
    (3:23 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yea
    (3:23 PM) Thusness: it becomes seamlessly effortless due to the arising insight
    in ur moment to moment of experience, suddenly u do not experience so call 'feeling or passion' (in contrast to being like a 'rock' no feelings...😛) in actualism terms but simply pure experience
    (3:25 PM) Thusness: have u ever thought of 'feelings' or anything that is related to feelings to bring u into this experience?
    (3:27 PM) Soh Wei Yu: what do u mean
    no
    no feelings are present in pces...
    (3:28 PM) Thusness: so it is simply the 'insight' of anatta
    nothing to do with 'feelings'
    get it?
    (3:29 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    (3:31 PM) Thusness: for till now u have not practiced anything relating to inquring about 'feelings', yet under normal conditions, there is effortless pce that is free from 'passion and feelings'
    has is this so?
    also, u experience lessening thoughts or no thoughts
    just luminous manifestation
    or non-conceptual thought
    does that mean u have to practice no-thought?
    or having no-thought is 'key'
    so the primary cause is due to the arising insight
    u can have other supporting conditions
    like practicing bare attention
    (3:35 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    insight of anatta is key
    btw richard also says his practice isnt about suppressing feeling
    but eradicating the identity
    (3:36 PM) Thusness: that comes to the next question
    what is feeling without the feeler?
    there is always only feelings, no feeler
    then how does 'feelings' arise?
    (3:37 PM) Soh Wei Yu: via habitual tendencies
    (3:37 PM) Thusness: not only habitual tendencies
    but latent tendencies
    (3:37 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (3:38 PM) Thusness: i do not want u to talk about latent tendencies because actualism might not accept latent tendencies
    (3:38 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (3:49 PM) Soh Wei Yu:
    //"Often people who do not read what I have to say with both eyes gain the impression that I am suggesting that people are to stop feeling ... which I am not. My whole point is to cease ‘being’ – psychologically and psychically self-immolate – which means that the entire psyche itself is extirpated. That is, the biological instinctual package handed out by blind nature is deleted like a computer software programme (but with no ‘Recycle Bin’ to retrieve it from) so that the affective faculty is no more. Then – and only then – are there no feelings ... as in a pure consciousness experience (PCE) where, with the self in abeyance, the feelings play no part at all. However, in a PCE the feelings – passion and calenture – can come rushing in, if one is not alert, resulting in the PCE devolving into an altered state of consciousness (ASC) ... complete with a super-self. Indeed, this demonstrates that it is impossible for there to be no feelings whilst there is a self – in this case a Self – thus it is the ‘being’ that has to go first ... not the feelings."//
    (3:52 PM) Thusness: i thought tarin said this is not from Richard?
    (3:54 PM) Soh Wei Yu: no
    that part is from richard
    this one is from 37: So, you see that ‘time without duration’ just as ‘space without measure’ can be made sense of. Time is a sequence of events, time itself does not ‘move’ – so there can only be NOW. Objects that move in space can move relative to other objects, but they are always in the very same place – HERE, ‘anywhere,’ and ‘nowhere in particular.’ No 37 to No 60
    the quote about feelings and identity is from http://actualfreedom.com.au/.../aprecisofactualfreedom.htm
    written by richard
    (3:55 PM) Thusness: ic
    (3:55 PM) Soh Wei Yu: tarin is online
    he's going to write a post soon i think 😛
    btw what u think about my draft
    (3:56 PM) Thusness: going to post lah
    no good
    (3:56 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    how i shld change
    (3:56 PM) Thusness: how do u do a conclusion?
    then compare point to point with sub-heading
    what i tell u is let u understand better ur experience
    coz though u have the experience, u r not seeing it from all round perspective...
    like when u have some experience and realization, u hurp on that experience and realization
    (4:00 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    hurp?
    (4:03 PM) Thusness: like uncontrollable hiccup 😛
    (4:03 PM) Soh Wei Yu: lol
    (4:04 PM) Thusness: now kept talking about unsupported
    that is not anatta leh
    (4:04 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oh ya
    wanted to edit it
    confusing
    (4:04 PM) Thusness: yeah
    u just couch out without the ability to control 😛
    (4:06 PM) Thusness: it is to let u further realized ur attachment of a center
    no inner core ....like things are something co-ordinated but there is no string linking them
    the core/essence is gone
    (4:07 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    edited
    A Précis Of Actual Freedom
    ACTUALFREEDOM.COM.AU
    A Précis Of Actual Freedom
    A Précis Of Actual Freedom

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         · 28m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (4:30 PM) Thusness: when u quote u must quote "I am my feelings, my feelings are me" and "When feelings arise, so do 'i'"
    so what is 'I'
    it is a sense of 'Self/self'
    (4:31 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    u mean i shld say that?
    (4:32 PM) Thusness: no no...i am saying do u understand
    (4:32 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yea
    (4:32 PM) Thusness: why write something u have not thoroughly understood
    so first understand
    "I am my feelings, my feelings are me" and "When feelings arise, so do "I"
    this should be the sub-point heading
    u must know what r the points u want to make
    (4:35 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (4:35 PM) Thusness: what are the points u want to bring across
    come out the points first
    (4:35 PM) Soh Wei Yu: i am my feelings, my feelings are me
    reality
    (4:36 PM) Thusness: This is one point
    (4:36 PM) Soh Wei Yu: pce
    (4:36 PM) Thusness: when feelings arise, so do 'I'
    the is second point
    means what Richard said is very clear
    it is anatta
    but he sees it from the feeling angle and realized anatta
    and he further elaborates it
    because he said about dis-association
    but when he says "When feelings arise, so do I"
    what is this 'I"?
    (4:39 PM) Soh Wei Yu: just a feeling of a self/Self
    (4:39 PM) Thusness: is this "I' the same as what richard explain in the "I am my feelings, my feelings are 'me'??
    (4:39 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah
    (4:39 PM) Thusness: no
    but mistaken as the same
    (4:39 PM) Soh Wei Yu: what do u mean
    (4:39 PM) Thusness: one is talking about agent does not exist
    one is talking about the sense of self
    (4:41 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (4:41 PM) Thusness: but do not talk about this
    because i want u to slowly bring it across not now
    it is like "I AM" and then there is the further de-construction of 'personality' in the impersonality phase
    they are not the same

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         · 27m
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (4:43 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    its like what u said five skandhas then eighteen dhatus?
    (4:44 PM) Thusness: yes
    (4:44 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic
    (4:44 PM) Thusness: but don't talk about that
    in the five skandhas, there is already the enlightened view
    means it is only an enlightened person can see the 5 skandas
    there is already the arising insight of anatta
    get it?
    (4:45 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yea
    (4:45 PM) Thusness: complete 18 dhatus is arahat
    but u r practicing mahayana
    so i brought out compassion
    (4:45 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (4:46 PM) Thusness: so a practitioner will not be able to accept it for now because it appears to be final
    don't talk about that first
    coz ur agrument will be incogruent
    (4:46 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (4:47 PM) Thusness: means has one seen the difference between the 5 skandas and pure 18 dhatus?
    is there clarity of insight in this phase?
    and after that what is it?
    don't just pour out without knowing why
    u r talking to a very advance practitioner with depth in insight of his practice
    (4:49 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (4:49 PM) Thusness: i m not interested is who has higher attainment and who has deeper insight
    don't behave this way
    (4:50 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (4:50 PM) Thusness: i am more interested in what u r going to bring across help
    (4:50 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (4:51 PM) Thusness: it is not just parroting it out the points
    this is like when tarin brought out those points, u r unable to c the importance of "when feeling arises, so do I"
    then u thought u have understood
    and missed it entirely

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         · 25m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (4:52 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (4:52 PM) Thusness: i do not want this to happen
    even the actually free person do not acknowledge, it is okie
    but there must be clarity
    get it?
    (4:53 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (4:54 PM) Thusness: so is there clarity first
    the 5 skandas
    and the 18 dhatus
    (4:54 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (4:54 PM) Thusness: what is latent
    what is hindering
    (4:55 PM) Thusness: what is are the supporting conditions that re-enforced
    what is the correct way of practicing...if u practice wrongly, u re-enforce the conditions
    so now...what has helped u progressed so far?
    (4:57 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    the right view?
    the right practice
    (4:59 PM) Thusness: u must realize and have arising insight of the view
    then suddenly u progressed and all experiences become seamless
    so what is important?
    (5:01 PM) Soh Wei Yu: insight
    (5:01 PM) Thusness: yes
    it is like Buddha say u must arise prajna wisdom to liberate
    u must see and experience urself
    is this true
    (5:04 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (5:04 PM) Thusness: replace ur that post with pce=no dog?
    say u will do a summary later and would like to look into this pce=no dog
    and explain what is no-dog in relation to pce
    (5:07 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ok updated

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         · 24m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (5:08 PM) Thusness: what is "I AM"
    is it a pce?
    is there emotion
    is there feeling
    is there thought
    is there division or complete stillness?
    in hearing there is just sound, just this complete, direct clarity of sound!
    so what is "I AM"?
    (5:10 PM) Soh Wei Yu: it is the same
    just that pure non conceptual thought
    (5:10 PM) Thusness: is there 'being'?
    (5:11 PM) Soh Wei Yu: no, an ultimate identity is created as an after thought
    (5:11 PM) Thusness: indeed
    it is the mis-interpretation after that experience that is causing the confusion
    that experience itself is pure conscious experience
    there is nothing that is impure
    that is why it is a sense of pure existence
    it is only mistaken due to the 'wrong view'
    so it is a pure conscious experience in thought.
    (5:13 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (5:13 PM) Thusness: not sound, taste, touch...etc
    (5:14 PM) Soh Wei Yu: tarin replied
    oic..
    (5:18 PM) Thusness: as i suspected. 🙂
    okie
    do a concluding summary like what i told u in points then elaborate
    and after that...do not reply further
    (5:22 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    as u suspected what 😛
    (5:23 PM) Thusness: all
    including bring in dharma dan
    as a matter of fact, dan would like to participate haahha...
    anyway...just one last post and there is no need to talk any further
    (5:25 PM) Soh Wei Yu: lol u mean dharma dan will be posting?
    oic

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         · 24m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (5:25 PM) Thusness: the feeling creates the need for the feeler...
    so there is no agent always
    there is only a sense of 'self' in feelings, but there is no feeler
    the agent
    that is different.
    (5:27 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    u mean different from feeling arises I?
    (5:28 PM) Thusness: that is why i said the clarity is not there yet
    from skandas to 18 dhatus
    not bad...this is the first time tarin say 'limited' experience 😛
    (5:30 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hahaha
    oic..
    but
    i shldnt talk about the skandhas to 18 dhatus yet right
    or shld i also mention
    (5:31 PM) Thusness: later...not now...just come out ur points first
    talk about no-dog and pce... in actually it is one aggregate claim that it is most special
    (5:38 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (5:45 PM) Thusness: or one set of dhatus (formation of mind-consciousness claiming to be more special
    (5:45 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (9:21 PM) Thusness: Therefore in Buddhism the emphasis is on realizing anatta and developing the view and experience of dependent origination.
    (9:21 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    ok
    (9:22 PM) Thusness: That is, things exist (is defined) not by their essence but by their "interconnectedness"
    are defined
    (9:24 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic.. updated
    a pure conscious experience of thought
    like a pure conscious experience of sound
    - where i put this
    u mean replace From feelings to sound etc,
    ?
    (9:25 PM) Thusness: u said pce of non-conceptual thought
    (9:26 PM) Soh Wei Yu: orh
    icic
    ok
    (9:28 PM) Thusness: sometimes i don't understand tarin's language
    distinct from the gradual emotional transformation that, by many accounts (including mine), succeeds 4th path is an actual freedom in which affect has vanished entirely.
    (9:30 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hahaha
    i also wanted to ask u this question 😛
    oh i understand him lah
    what he means is af isnt about transforming emotions
    it is about emotions vanishing entirely
    not emotions transform to good, etc
    i think
    richard defines spiritualism as the diminishing of bad emotions and cultivation of good emotions
    while actualism is the absence of all emotions
    something like that
    (9:32 PM) Thusness: yeah
    (9:32 PM) Soh Wei Yu: i wonder if he sits roller coaster will he experience adrenaline
    lol
    maybe i shld ask him 😛
    (9:33 PM) Thusness: the set of dhatu that relates to mind-consciousness
    (9:33 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ok updated
    (9:37 PM) Thusness: When feelings arise, so do 'I'
    Even though Richard clearly sees anatta, there are subtle differences. While actualism (if what Tarin says here reflects Richard's view as well) teaches that the 'I' inevitably arises with feelings, in Buddhism we stress on the insight and realization of anatta. Which is that there never was an 'I' to begin with. Be it scenery, thoughts or feelings - whatever arise
    agent (thinker, hearer, feeler..etc)
    . Though it should be noted that an initial insight of anatta does not mean end of afflictions and emotions (initial insight = Buddha's Sotapanna, though commonly equated to be MTCB's fourth-path). That is a 'further step' from the initial realization.
    as indicated in ur document
    (9:41 PM) Soh Wei Yu: u mean i add the line after the last sentence
    'as indicated in my document'?
    (9:47 PM) Thusness: yeah
    There is no need to make the set of dhatu that relates to mind-consciousness more special or ultimate than any other, and just as we do not make sound any more ultimate than taste, we also do not need to make non-conceptual thought more ultimate than a sight or indeed even a conceptual thought itself....
    a person at "I AM" or having wrong view cannot see this
    (9:49 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yeah..

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (9:54 PM) Thusness: actually the points i have given u are important points
    u should have thought through it thoroughly
    otherwise it will be misunderstood
    (9:56 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    when feeling arise, so do 'i' the 'i' here is the sense of self
    yet this doesnt indicate the insight of anatta, which is no agent to begin with even in the midst of feeling or even sense of self
    so even though anatta is realized, sense of self still can arise until it doesnt (along with the cessation of affective feelings). am i right
    (9:58 PM) Thusness: no...
    (9:59 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hmm... hows it wrong
    (10:00 PM) Thusness: magical fairy-tale like wonderland
    (10:00 PM) Thusness: yet ordinary
    most ordinary
    there is feeling, no feeler
    what is feeling without the feeler
    (10:02 PM) Soh Wei Yu: just a thought and the accompanying sensations
    (10:03 PM) Thusness: and what else?
    (10:04 PM) Soh Wei Yu: attachment, contraction
    sense of me
    (10:04 PM) Thusness: attachment
    (10:06 PM) Soh Wei Yu: i think my experience is more like kenneth's than tarin. i still feel some bodily sensations in place of attachment and emotions
    though tarin apparently reports that he doesnt
    experience those sensations i mean
    (10:07 PM) Thusness: don't compare first
    (10:07 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ok
    (10:07 PM) Thusness: have the right insight
    if u can't even have clarity of insight of what is the cause
    and having mixed up view
    how refine can ur experience be?
    (10:09 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (10:09 PM) Thusness: kok ur head
    of course u got attachment
    (10:09 PM) Soh Wei Yu: lol
    (10:09 PM) Thusness: u can't even contain ur excitement of posting the points
    lol
    (10:09 PM) Soh Wei Yu: 😛

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         · 20m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (10:10 PM) Thusness: there is the agent
    u r clear about the agent
    (10:10 PM) Thusness: so that is already the enlightened view
    and the 5 aggregates is taught from an enligthened view
    why is seeing what is feeling without feeler important?
    there is clarity that there is no feeler, there is no 'I'
    how is it that there is still attachment?
    (10:15 PM) Soh Wei Yu: by latent tendencies
    (10:15 PM) Thusness: no good
    (10:16 PM) Thusness: attachment to a piece of memory
    to body
    to identity
    to relationships
    all these causes feelings to arise
    there is clarity that there is no agent, but how is it that these still arise?
    or should all these attachment not arise?
    (10:22 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    bcos there is identification
    it is treated as mine
    (10:24 PM) Thusness: identify with is not the same as identity
    (10:26 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    yeah
    (10:27 PM) Thusness: and aren't u having pce effortlessly?
    (10:27 PM) Soh Wei Yu: theres this sutta
    where an anagami said something like with regards to the five skandhas, there is a sense of a self... but there is no self that can be located. so i think its like with regards to five skandhas, there is still 'identification with', yet there is no identity
    after this he became an arhant
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../sn22/sn22.089x.wlsh.html
    yeah
    (10:30 PM) Soh Wei Yu: what do u think about that sutta
    (10:31 PM) Thusness: good
    but u do not understand yet
    and that is what i training u
    (10:31 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic
    btw what i said about the sutta isit right?
    (10:32 PM) Thusness: i have to read through more thoroughly first
    (10:32 PM) Soh Wei Yu: ic..
    (10:32 PM) Thusness: r u have pce effortlessly now?
    (10:32 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yea
    (10:32 PM) Thusness: do u clearly see that body is a construct?
    (10:33 PM) Soh Wei Yu: yea
    (10:33 PM) Thusness: now if i am going to do some great harm to ur body, how will u react?
    (10:34 PM) Soh Wei Yu: i dunnu... will do anything to protect myself
    (10:35 PM) Thusness: does that mean that u see that there is an agent?
    (10:35 PM) Soh Wei Yu: no
    (10:35 PM) Thusness: so what cause that protection?
    (10:35 PM) Soh Wei Yu: 'identification with'?
    (10:36 PM) Thusness: is that bad?
    (10:41 PM) Soh Wei Yu: bad in what sense
    from the buddhist perspective all identification are not good 😛
    (10:41 PM) Thusness: causing feelings
    (10:41 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hmm
    if it causes fear etc then i think its bad
    (10:44 PM) Thusness: if now u go attack what richard said is completely rubbish u c tarin will jump or not
    😛
    (10:46 PM) Soh Wei Yu: hahaha
    (10:50 PM) Thusness: 'This is the body, this is its arising, this is its passing away. These are feelings,... perceptions,... mental formations,... this is consciousness, this is its arising, this is its passing away
    why does this lead to releasing?
    (10:52 PM) Soh Wei Yu: it's like self-liberation.. there is no holding, just constant releasing, just disjoint unsupported bubble-like phenomena
    (10:52 PM) Thusness: no no yet...though this is what i said but u have not realized yet
    when there is no agent, no background how is it that there is holding, attachment?
    so what is the no agent telling u?
    (10:54 PM) Soh Wei Yu: there is still the sense of solidity to experience though without an agent
    no agent is no background perceiver, thinker, controller etc
    just perception
    (10:55 PM) Thusness: kok ur head
    it is telling u that with the right view, u must understand right practice
    (10:55 PM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: means with no agent, u realize that u cannot practice by way of dis-association
    there is no u to disassociate
    there is no to hold...
    what does that mean?
    there is no u, but there is attachment
    what is this telling u?
    (11:04 PM) Soh Wei Yu: back
    that means no 'me' doesnt mean no 'mine' (identification with) and so one must practice to get rid of 'mine'?
    Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
    ACCESSTOINSIGHT.ORG
    Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
    Khemo Sutta: Khemaka

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         · 19m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (11:59 PM) Thusness: this is the second part
    (11:59 PM) Soh Wei Yu: so what is the right practice in this case
    (11:59 PM) Thusness: the first part is gone
    lol
    the 'I' and 'mine' is to tell the lay practitioners that has not arisen the insight of anatta
    as many think that if there is no 'I' (the agent), the 'mine' should also be eliminated
    but for one that has arisen the insight of anatta, there is no 'I'.
    (12:01 AM) Thusness: so there is no disassociation
    means practice is not by way of dis-association which i show it is taught in most of the practice
    (12:02 AM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (12:04 AM) Thusness: so when u see the practice, u know what they are describing
    whether it is teaching dis-association or non-dual
    if the view is wrong, u must change the view
    u entire mind must see releasing
    there is only the arising and passing
    (12:06 AM) Soh Wei Yu: oic..
    (12:07 AM) Thusness: i go sleep liao\
    (12:09 AM) Soh Wei Yu: btw
    shld i add my conclusion to the af document too
    Session Start: Friday, 26 March, 2011
    Thusness: They overlapped in terms of pces due to the realization that there is no "I".
    Soh: Ic
    Soh: What about the real
    Thusness: In Buddhism "real" has a very specific meaning, what is real is "permanent, independent and unchanging"
    Soh: I see
    Soh: Now booking out liao later I go post
    Thusness: Based on these few points, write a proper summary. It is important for ur conclusion in ur AF document too.
    Soh: This sunday I no more cos
    Soh: Oic...
    Thusness: Huh? U can book out?
    Soh: Yea done for the day
    Thusness: Lol
    Soh: Btw
    Soh: Dharma dan said the opening of wisdom eye
    Soh: In his attainment of arhatship
    Soh: Was actually pce
    Soh: But apparently for him it was not permanent
    Soh: What do u think
    Thusness: There r certain things that said requires deep insight and experience but the insight may not be mature and stable.
    Soh: Oic..
    Thusness: Like the first and second stanza.
    Soh: So u think dharma dan had the insight but stable and mature yet
    Thusness: But why do u want to talk abt dharma Dan now?
    Soh: Just wondering only cos read his past posts while surfing dho
    Thusness: I do not want u to make comment abt dan. Coz very often u r not skillful in ur presentation
    Thusness: It is not easy to stabilize ones insight and experience
    Thusness: Even for me
    Soh: Oic..
    Thusness: Therefore each insight is accompanied with certain experiences and followed by further refinement of our insights
    Soh: Ic..

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         · 18m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Session Start: 29 March 2011
    Thusness: yeah of course
    Soh: Ic
    Thusness: if u do not feel the 'body construct' and 'mind construct', just the play of dharma, how does the sense of self arise?
    Soh: It doesnt
    Thusness: yeah...
    Thusness: for me, it is just this dependent originated activity...
    Thusness: primordially pure and luminous
    Thusness: sense of self does not arise
    Thusness: i do not see 'body' or 'mind'
    Thusness: for there is no agent
    Thusness: for u by now u should be clear on this
    Thusness: experientially
    Thusness: otherwise, u will not feel the 'process'
    Soh: Ic..
    Thusness: u told me about the mini maha experience
    Thusness: so u should not feel the sense of self
    Soh: Yea
    Thusness: logically when the agent is gone, the primary cause for these sense of self should also be gone
    Thusness: however due to the deeper dispositions, it continues to linger
    Thusness: when u engage in this modern world, it re-enforce the identity
    Soh: Oic
    Thusness: so by seeing there is no-self in anatta, the sense of self should also dwindle
    Soh: Ic
    Thusness: when u practice and there is mind body drop
    Thusness: due to de-construction of body and mind
    Thusness: there is only purity of sensations
    Thusness: it is just a lingering trace
    Thusness: how does the sense of self arise?
    Thusness: and that means it is simply a dispositions
    Thusness: and during daily activity, there is re-enforcing of this trace
    Thusness: when there is no agent, this trace will be seen as it is
    Thusness: in non-dual and one mind, this is not just a trace
    Thusness: u may have trace of identity
    Thusness: but 'Self' is not a trace
    Thusness: it is as if it is truly 'there' and all there is
    Thusness: but anatta is different
    Thusness: for everything is like a trace
    Thusness: and self is not any more special that an arising sound
    Thusness: no diff
    Thusness: can u understand the difference?

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         · 16m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Thusness: When we young, we r often overwhelmed by our insights and experiences. This happens to u too. Very often, u simply convey b4 u sufficiently grasp the essence of something. This can lead to unnecessary misunderstanding.
    Thusness: While I want u to know the diff, sometimes I refrain from commenting due to ur unskillful presentation
    Thusness: So i would Ask and slowly direct u to c
    Thusness: Like in this case of AF and ur insight of anatta
    Thusness: In this case u r able to "see" and "realize"
    Thusness: If I merely tell and u simply parrot, u realize nothing
    Thusness: What am I telling u abt AF this time?
    Thusness: I mean discussing with something abt AF this time?
    Soh: The difference between anatta and feeling arise I
    Thusness: Why am I telling u these?
    Soh: So I may be able to discern the differences?
    Thusness: Because u r slowly being drawn to AF and not having clear understanding
    Thusness: If AF is teaching u something that can complement ur insight, it is ok
    Thusness: In this case becoz tarin insight and experience is not lower than u, u r not able to discern correctly
    Thusness: That is why u hv to mature ur insight and stabilize ur experience of anatta first
    Thusness: It is also a good opportunity for u to hv a deeper understanding of anatta
    Soh: Oic..
    Thusness: Now that u hv a better understanding, u also hv a clearer picture of the cause and the importance of right view.
    Thusness: Hv u shifted?
    Thusness: who is mike?
    Thusness: why not...
    Thusness: and i told u so many times there is no hierarchy
    Thusness: and u mean nobody can have deeper insight? how is that possible
    Thusness: u also need to indicate that "I AM" realization is not simply a 'Watcher'

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         · 16m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Soh: Think so
    Thusness: now what pegembara said is more like sunyata
    Thusness: and emptiness
    Thusness: but that is understand
    Soh: Ic..
    Thusness: understanding
    Thusness: it is like dharma dan
    Thusness: the intensity of luminosity is not fully appreciated
    Soh: Oic but dharma dan does have realization right
    Thusness: u don't get what i mean
    Soh: Ic
    Soh: U mean like the insight is there but not the depth of experience
    Thusness: no
    Thusness: i mean luminosity
    Soh: Oic
    Thusness: u r too worried about who is realized and who is not
    Thusness: and completely missing the essence of what that is being conveyed
    Soh: Ic
    Thusness: if no one is there to point out to u, then u can get stuck for a very long period
    Thusness: so u must be pay more attention to this
    Soh: Stuck in what
    Thusness: pegembara lacks the luminosity
    Thusness: get stuck in 'not seeing'
    Soh: Ic
    Thusness: means no penetration in insight
    Thusness: pegembara is like having phase 6 understanding
    Thusness: but lack the intensity of luminosity
    Thusness: and phase 6 direct insight
    Thusness: yet u r talking about dharma dan
    Thusness: r u going to help dharma dan now?
    Soh: Oic..
    Thusness: is he writing the blog?
    Thusness: u r not attending
    Thusness: coz u r so caught up on who has realized what even it is not here
    Soh: Ic..
    Thusness: so if there is no one to point out to u, how are u to progress with this sort of mindset
    Soh: Oic..

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         · 15m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Thusness: what must be ur advice to pegembara?
    Soh: To look into the intensity of luminosity?
    Thusness: in this case, he must have direct pce
    Thusness: coz he lacks this
    Thusness: for the pces, u must point out what pegembara said
    Thusness: but in a skillful way
    Thusness: for tarin case, u must penetrate the difference between the agent and the sense of self
    Soh: What u mean by point out what pegembara said
    Soh: Oic
    Thusness: then there is depth of insight of the immediate moment
    Thusness: otherwise u r always just pouring out from memory
    Soh: Oic
    Thusness: means u r not practicing in daily activity
    Thusness: u r staying at the conceptual level
    Thusness: this is the actual situation and conditions
    Thusness: and u apply skillful means accordingly
    Soh: Ic
    Thusness: also from what pegembara said, u must also realized that from what he said, he has great potential
    Thusness: for he brought out several important points
    Thusness: i am very busy these few days
    Thusness: but think will answer him
    Soh: Oic..
    Thusness signed out.
    Session Start: Friday, 1 April, 2011
    (8:26 PM) Thusness: i am telling the first and second stanza must go hand in hand to have real insight of anatta even for a start
    u must have these 2 aspects of insight
    in anatta
    so what is anatta?
    means when u penetrate no-agent, u r effectively developing ur direct insight
    (8:29 PM) Thusness: that is not reifying anothing extra. That is direct insight into suchness
    so that when u see 'Self', there is nothing but aggregates
    when u see 'weather', there is nothing but the changing clouds, rain...
    when u see 'body', u see changing sensations
    when u hear sound, u see the DO
    then u see how the 2 fold emptiness are simply one insight and why that leads to ??? (yi4 he2 xiang4; one aggregated form)
    if there is no insight but cling to words then u missed the essence
    that is the gaining of insight on the 2 stanzas is not to think only of 'Self'

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         · 15m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Session Start: Saturday, 2 April, 2011
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: haha...finished updating and done.
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: I think so far over the period u know me, i have not said this person is sotapanna or arahat...or whatever stage.
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: even for the phases of insights i wrote, i have u told umteen times that it is about insights....not about stages... the appearance of the progression of insights from "I AM" to "Self-liberation" is merely due to my conditions.
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: an example would be pegembara article relates more to phase 6 insight and that is how it unfold for him. He may have other realizations in the 7-phases of insights later in his journey.
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: But I truly have no idea how it became a model to validate other's phases of enlightenment in such a short span of time...lol
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: frankly i am really not interested what stage I am in now.... however i am fully indebted to Buddha's teaching of anatta and dependent origination and what is important now is to fully embrace this view into my moment to moment of experience and sink these realizations of anatta and emptiness into the deepest depth of my consciousness.
    (9:52 AM) Thusness: You have tasted the benefits at such a young age, do not waste your valuable 'conditions'. Treasure it. 🙂
    (9:52 AM) AEN is now Online
    (9:53 AM) Thusness: i do not think practitioners at stream entry can realize the breadth and depth of DO.
    (9:53 AM) AEN: received
    i see..
    (9:55 AM) Thusness: i think ananda is already above stream entry right but to Buddha, he has not understood DO correctly.
    think there is a conversation something like that
    that he thinks DO is easy to understand
    haah...think beoman think that u over claimed in dho. 😛
    (9:58 AM) Thusness: u better not create havoc there as tarin and trent have a status higher than buddha over there. 😛
    just simply conclude and end ur conversation in the thread since ur input are not appreciated.
    (10:44 AM) AEN: back
    ananda was stream entry all the way until buddha's passing
    a few weeks later he became arahant
    haha
    i replied them
    (10:45 AM) Thusness: don't make a big huha..😛
    if the conditions are there, it is pointless
    (10:45 AM) AEN: ic..
    (10:46 AM) Thusness: the comments in the blog is quite suitable for u
    (10:51 AM) AEN: oic.. i go read
    (10:52 AM) Thusness: sometimes attachments make a person so blind that they simply missed what that is obvious.
    if insights isn't important, why af stresses seeing clearly "I am my feelings and my feelings are me"
    (10:53 AM) Thusness: and all af practitioners are contemplating about that, in addition, why ask haetmoba
    any go read. I got to go. 🙂

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         · 12m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (10:56 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:16 PM) AEN: lol how shld i reply him
    http://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../messa.../message/1631786
    (12:17 PM) AEN: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../messa.../message/1698792
    (11:20 PM) AEN: just now
    i was watching the vcd talk of teacher chen
    2006 talk given at jiang tang
    which is the one u attended
    (11:20 PM) Thusness: explaining emptiness
    (11:21 PM) AEN: the topic is learning the practice method of mahayana and hinayana
    yeah
    he say
    hinayana contemplate the three dharma seals
    and ultimately realises no self
    but there is still establishing dharma and trying to get rid of dharma
    in mahayana its different
    we dont establish dharma, we dont try to get rid of suffering, just the five skandhas turn into five wisdoms, the wisdom that sees dependent origination and emptiness
    then he explains the 'jian she ming xin, wen shen wu dao' as everything seen, experienced as empty and dependent originated
    sorry
    (11:22 PM) Thusness: yeah...the explanation is quite good
    (11:22 PM) AEN: establishing dharma and trying to get rid of suffering
    (11:23 PM) Thusness: but what said is not exactly true
    this is like belittling theravada
    it is rather the insight
    if a theravada practitioner arise the insight of anatta, there is nothing to get rid
    how is that possible, there is only clarity in the six entry and exit
    (11:24 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:25 PM) Thusness: as for DO arising due to yuan...nothing is established, there is nothing to be gained or lost
    (11:25 PM) Thusness: this will come if we truly understand what anatta is all about
    if we attached to anatta just as the abeyance of the 'self', then that is theravada
    but if we see it as an end to reification, then we do not see it as just the abeyance of self/Self
    practitioners see body, mind, self, now, here, weather, sound, taste, scenery....bringing the insight of anatta to whatever mind objects that arise, then whatever arises turns into wisdom
    (11:30 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:30 PM) Thusness: the practitioner will eventually and naturally see ??? (yi4 he2 xiang4; one aggregated form)
    (11:31 PM) AEN: ic..
    (11:36 PM) Thusness: therefore from initial insight, practitioners penetrate further to realize what exactly happen in anatta
    and extend it to all mind-objects and whatever arises
    using the same insight...
    i was thinking u can realize this urself
    so that u understand how does it lead to 2 fold emptiness
    (11:46 PM) AEN: oic..
    the twofold emptiness is described in glossary as 'emptiness of self in atman' and 'emptiness of selves in dharmas'... so both are emptiness of self but applied in different things
    (11:51 PM) Thusness: yeah...
    so it is same insight applied to whatever arises
    (11:51 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:52 PM) Thusness: but it requires one to understand the same insight
    further
    sometimes i look at the advice of af, how they lead one to effortlessness this way
    focusing so much about experience
    knowing nothing of the causes and conditions
    in anatta, everything is so clear...there is simply nothing obscuring and therefore has to be in the most direct mode of apprehension
    (11:55 PM) Thusness: anyway focus on refining ur insight and experience and do not waste too much time
    is No Dog = PCE? - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
    DHARMAOVERGROUND.ORG
    is No Dog = PCE? - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org
    is No Dog = PCE? - Discussion - www.dharmaoverground.org

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         · 12m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    (12:48 AM) Thusness: lasttime comment is quite good but used in wrong situation
    many wants to come into buddhism and talk about simplicity and try to advice ppl not to over complicate matter
    (12:50 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:50 AM) Thusness: this is a wrong approach
    simplicity is only realized after true certain realization
    (12:51 AM) AEN: ic..
    (12:51 AM) Thusness: do not come into Buddhism with this sort of mindset
    when our we see things with dualistic and inherent mind, there is no simplicity
    Have u seen and sutra that can be easily understood?
    🙂
    (12:53 AM) AEN: generally sutta that expounds prajna and insight cannot be understood easily.... thats why buddha said the dharma is only understood by the wise
    (12:57 AM) Thusness: from Avatamsaka sutra, heart sutra, lankavatara sutra, lotus sutra, Vimalakirti sutra, diamond sutra, perfect enlightenment sutra...
    i never come across any that is easy to understand
    so i just focus on one...lol
    heart sutra
    and it is already a big headache
    a sincere and serious practitioner should not come with a wrong mindset
    there is no easy way to overcome the inherent and dualistic view
    as much as we would like to...
    as for beacom, advice him not to see it that way
    (1:01 AM) AEN: ic..
    (1:01 AM) Thusness: pce is about direct and pure experience of whatever we encounter in sight, sound, taste...
    the quality and depth of experience in sound
    in contacts
    in taste
    in scenery
    has he truly experience the immense luminous clarity in the senses?
    if so, what about 'thought'?
    when all senses are shut
    the pure sense of existence as it is when the senses are shut.
    then with senses open
    have a clear understanding
    do not compare irrationally without clear understanding
    (1:06 AM) Thusness: lol...but do not put it across to him so bluntly
    (1:10 AM) AEN: oic..

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     · 10m

    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    As for yoga and energy practices, these are important but you'll have to find a teacher.
    "Be compassionate and free, awareness be clear like sky and boundless like space. Move in and out stainlessly without trace and nothing will be able to affect a liberated man. Do energy practice to strengthen your vital energy and aliveness.” – John Tan, 2015
    [8:24 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Nothing wrong with awareness practice, just practitioners will skew towards non conceptual clarity. However total opening requires one to see through conventionality understanding the DO and how it binds and bond the mind in a powerful and hypnotic way.
    [8:25 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Also awareness without breath and energy practice cannot effectively open up and release oneself.
    [8:35 AM, 3/3/2017] John Tan: Pristine clarity and aliveness go hand in hand. When one is totally and non-dually aware, he is also fully alive and open. Experiencing one without the other isn't complete. Although many experience energy release and aliveness in non-dual awareness, they still skew towards clarity and do not know how to open up the energy, the "aliveness" aspect."
    “John Tan: Yes you should learn slowly and safely… no need to rush… half a year you will see the effect. My sensations are very powerful now… I want to focus on this technique of mine for a few months... Anatta is very strong nowadays... Wonder why… lol
    In addition to insights, the body has some serious obstruction that prevents full blown experience of no-self. When the intensity of sensation is strong, the transparency + insights of Anatta become very powerful and obvious… the natural intensity of sensations helps one to lose all sense of self too...
    Soh Wei Yu: Intensity of sensations come from energy practice?
    John Tan: Yes” - John Tan, 2013

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             · 4m

    ⁠
        Tyler Jones
        Soh, will take me a bit to read through those chat logs, but I completely agree with the posts from Kyle you shared. Only thing I would add to what he said is that it's my understanding the intensity of the "brightness" can be deliberately increased to speed up the process, that's what the special methods for energy and samadhi cultivation that are preserved in the various lineages are for, and I would expect is also what John is getting at when talking about focusing on the intensity of the luminosity.
        Would be curious what jumps out at you, William, as relevant to your question.
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             · 1h
        Soh Wei Yu
        Admin
        Another quote I intended to paste earlier but missed out:
        “Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
        …
        “On hand I have this:
        The Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra states:
        Affecting the mind, kleśa and vāsanā can be destroyed only by a wisdom [prajñā], a certain form of omniscience [sarvajñatā].
        There is a lesser form of prajñā that is able to eradicate the kleśas, and then a superior form of prajñā that destroys vāsanās. Only buddhas possess the superior form and have therefore dispelled both the kleśas and vāsanās.
        The Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra continues:
        There is no difference between the different destructions of the conflicting emotions [kleśaprahāna]. However, the Tathāgatas, arhats and samyaksaṃbuddhas have entirely and definitively cut all the conflicting emotions [kleśa] and the traces that result from them [vāsanānusaṃdhi]. The śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas themselves have not yet definitively cut vāsanānusaṃdhi... these vāsanās are not really kleśas. After having cut the kleśas, the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas still retain a small part of them: semblances of love (attachment) [rāga], hate (aversion) [dveṣa] and ignorance [moha] still function in their body [kāya], speech [vāc] and mind [manas]: this is what is called vāsanānusaṃdhi. In foolish worldly people [bālapṛthagjana], the vāsanās call forth disadvantages [anartha], whereas among the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas they do not. The Buddhas do not have these vāsanānusaṃdhi.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
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