"Form is empty" is conceptual understanding.
    "Form is emptiness" is experiential insight in profoundly deep actualization.

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    Anurag Jain
    Please explain the difference between empty and emptiness.

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    John Tan
    Anurag Jain I just capture what comes to my mind when I meditate. Don't have to take it seriously if it doesn't make sense to u.
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  • Anurag Jain
    🙂 Sure ! To me, empty and emptiness ring the same. Both indicate the inconceivable nature of forms..
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  • Anurag Jain
    Which of course is not just conceptually known but experientially felt. All forms are experienced as reflection of moon in water occupying no space and time and ungraspable.

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  • Michael Hernandez
    John Tan I get that. Oftentimes insight is so deep it's difficult to explain in our language of concepts.
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  • Anurag Jain
    Michael Hernandez what do you get in this case? 🙂
    Since you have understood what John Tan has written through language itself, you are contradicting yourself.

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  • Michael Hernandez
    Anurag Jain I get the experience of insight is supramundane. Insight is a by product of unbinding. It's how the we attempt to rationally categorize the experience. It's not wholly explainable because it lies beyond use of language. I get that we might attempt to convey the experience but it comes out conventional. I've also tried several times to convey insight only to perplex and confuse others.
    I get that
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  • Anurag Jain
    I did not ask about insight Michael Hernandez . I asked the difference between empty and emptiness.
    I also think all insights can be explained ..... otherwise there is no way to teach and to learn.

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  • Michael Hernandez
    Anurag Jain for example the explanation of the sound of one hand clapping is not the experience.
    In fact the drawn out explanation hinders others. In some traditions insight experiences are kept private for a couple of reasons.

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  • Aditya Prasad
    I am reminded of this quote from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:
    "All Buddhist systems of philosophy expound that things--phenomena and mind--are empty, as they have to. The intention of the Buddha when using the word 'emptiness' (Skt. sunyata) is that -ness (Skt. ta) is the cognizant quality, so emptiness here should be understood as 'empty cognizance'. Whenever the suffix -ness is included, we should understand this pure connotation. If we understand 'emptiness' as meaning just an empty voidness, rather than empty cognizance, we lean too much towards nihilism, the idea that everything is a big blank void. That would be a serious sidetrack."
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  • Christiane Michelberger
    I think we are leaving the space here that can still be expressed in words. In my experience, even emptiness and forms are concepts that don't match the experience.
    For example, there is no thing called "emptiness". Emptiness is even empty of itself. Or you could say, "Empty" means "empty". It is also empty of emptiness.
    The same is true for form.
    In this space, neither form nor emptiness exist.

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  • Albert Hong
    Emptiness is Tongpa in Tibetan. Tongpa means to empty out. It is a verb.
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  • Aditya Prasad
    Albert Hong I thought tongpa is empty and tongpanyi is emptiness?

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  • Albert Hong
    Aditya Prasad i’m not a tibetan expert. I just use whats useful for me for practice. Nyi means i think nature of. From where i learn dharma emphasis is placed on emptiness as a verb.
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  • Robert Dominik Tkanka
    Emptying as a verb is something I love using while guiding others with somatic techniques. Its useful in the context of letting go of tension (in my own language would be literally "emptying the body of the tension" or "voiding").

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  • Albert Hong
    Yes. Also a great way to actualize continuous fluxing or process of everything. Imperamence to also the death of the physical body to even self liberation.
    Maybe Rigtong. Or tongrig. Or

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  • Robert Dominik Tkanka
    Albert Hong letting go every moment or every moment actualised as letting go
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  • Albert Hong
    Robert Dominik Tkanka beautiful. Tongsal emptying radiance or saltong radiance emptying.
    Opening towards and towards opening.
    The factuality of openness is maybe ngobo or openness that allows.
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  • Piotr Ludwiński
    Albert Hong nope, tong is a verb while tongpa is a noun... whenever you add "pa" it makes verb a noun... its tibetan 101. depending how phrase is constructed tongpa will be either noun or adjective..
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  • Albert Hong
    Piotr Ludwiński is it used like a noun?

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  • Albert Hong
    I’ve always used it as an actional dynamic rather than a personplacething.

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  • Piotr Ludwiński
    since you can read tong pa as either noun or adjective you have those two conflicting translations of heart sutra "form is empty and emptiness is form" or "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". it is used like a noun. in conventional expression nouns and verbs are not blended into smoothie since there is nothing more ultimate about verbs or activity...

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  • Albert Hong
    But it could be a translation based on meaning rather than literal.

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  • Piotr Ludwiński
    if you want to re-write tibetan grammar and dharma according to your sentiments you are free to do so... lol

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  • Piotr Ludwiński
    its futile since activity as compassionate activity is anyway discussed in terms of three kayas or three aspects of natural state - each aspect is already discussed till exhaustion throughout vajrayana so its not necessary to make smoothie from verbs and nouns really... inclination to make language smoothie from dharma comes from sentiments conditioned by chinese language which itself is in no any way more ultimate than sanskrit or tibetan...
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  • Albert Hong
    It is when it comes to translation into english. Processes verses static symbols are much different in practice and view.

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  • Albert Hong
    But to each their own. For me the nuance of language is important. Ive read many translations of the same text and you can get wide ranges of meaning and views.

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  • Albert Hong
    Piotr Ludwiński haha i dare not. I don’t translate anything. But certainly my Lama does and what small tibetan i’ve understood is based on that small sample. I don’t actually know tibetan even though i read countless translated books.
    Tongpa as a verb has a much different meaning than as a noun. But as an adj is makes sense.
    Can we assume the the word rig-pa is a noun or adj?

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  • Albert Hong
    Piotr Ludwiński all kinds of translations are made. Some attempts at literal and some based on meaning or practice.
    All translations are based. From duff to guntheur to padma publications to dowman. They are so different it is shocking. …
    See more

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  • Albert Hong
    Sorry to take over the wall. One of my favorite word or saying is ma' gags pa. It is translated as Not Stopped. This is a verb if I am correct. Does the Pa indicate it as a masculine noun?

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  • Anurag Jain
    Albert Hong nothing needs to be emptied out as emptiness is already the reality of all forms.
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    Albert Hong
    Anurag Jain and yet there is continual arising and dissolving. You are compelled to write this and that is emergence. And as soon as it emerges it is emptying itself out.

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  • Anurag Jain
    Albert Hong there are no arisings except conventionally.

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  • Albert Hong
    Anurag Jain not even conventionally. Nonetheless there is continual arising.
    You cannot deny appearance. You are appearance.

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  • Anurag Jain
    There is arising only conventionally...... or as mere appearance

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  • Robert Dominik Tkanka
    Nothing needs to be emptied therefore everything is to be emptied

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  • André A. Pais
    I think some inverted comas would make it clearer. 😉
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  • Anurag Jain
    Everything is empty.

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  • Edmond Cigale
    Very well said, John.
    Sunyata and even anatta is ineffable, light years beyond conceptualizations outlined in the Heart sutra.
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    Robert Dominik Tkanka
    When the light goes to the farthest reaches of the outher space then it turns out everything was like a lightning flash in the sky 🌟❄
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  • John Tan
    Robert Dominik Tkanka That is very good.
    Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva when practicing deeply the Prajna Paramita said to Sariputra: "Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form" should be like that.
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  • Vajra Satya
    Robert yes, thats yet another way to put it.
    👍👍
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  • Vajra Satya
    John yep, evidently.
    🙂
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  • Michael Hernandez
    "Everything is empty" is by this recognition of "there being" i.e "is-ness".
    There is because this is. Without this cognition there can be no recognition of that being there.
    "There is no-self only by this recognition of there is.
    Just a point of cognition of perception.
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    John Tan
    Michael Hernandez like what André A. Pais said "I think some inverted comas would make it clearer."😆.
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  • Arthur Deller
    Clearer for form. No difference for emptiness. 😎
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