3 nights ago at the end of a week long period of silence I read your “Two Non-dual Contemplations Post I Am” you explained that moment with the gong sound. It reached me.
    The background fell away completely and all perceptions were perceived as presence. Presence and manifestation inseparable. The insight was so clear so I wanted to test it. Took a shower in full effortless natural continuous awareness. Couldn’t sleep laid there for 4 hours too much awareness and luminosity behind the eyes.
    Next day there was continuous presence for the first time in life. Have practiced meditation for 12 years. Never happened before. 90% of the moments of that day effortless continuity very little deviation. All thought all perceptions were presence. Couldn’t believe it. Still can’t. Seems I’m phasing between Stage 4 & 5 or I’m just completely delusional and experiencing mere clarity a silencing of the 6th consciousness.
    Formerly sensory objects were always cause for distraction. I couldn’t apply Longchenpa’s advice on Abiding in the immediacy of sensory appearances. Namkhai Norbu explains this as well but it wasn’t experiential with profound continuity until reading your explanation that unfolded into appearances as presence.
    It’s different than previous non-dual inseparability. Presence still felt like something definable yet empty. Now it seems just ineffable.
    I think you saved me a decade maybe a lifetime of meditation. Still a long way to go but wanted to say thank you and if you have any advice for me I’d be honored to hear it.
    Your stages especially how you described cycling through I Am where it would be prominent for some time then vanish for months is exactly what I went through.
    I have no idea what stage or phase I’m definitively at at all it seems to just happen. If recognition is present, everything is perceived as mind. The atman is just a thought. Ill be reading the rest of the ATR Guide but if there are any sections any of the admins think I should focus on specifically please let me know.

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  • On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
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    Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu Yes after reading Ramana Maharshi about 4 or 5 years ago from the words “Moksha is to know you were never born.” Immaculate Presence as I Am-ness emerged. Bliss and Presence no sense of ego for 10 days continuously. Strange things happened as well like out of body experiences into thangka paintings of deities during that time. On the night of 10th day I decided to jack off and there was the opposite of post-nut clarity. Perception of separate self re-emerged and spent the next 3 years chasing that immaculate I Am state. It came and went I think it was either you or Thusness said it came and went for some time.
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  • Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu yeah what happened after reading Ramana was “I Am” that blossomed into “I Am-Everything” over a period of 10 days.
    For 3 years I had these huge cosmic non-dual bout of mostly what you call “I Am Everything” that would arise. It was like a roller coaster after every high of I Am everything-ness there was this very deep abysmal state of mind and body that would follow. So by nature these oscillations were intense and the contraction phases of the cycle— re-emergence of the sense of self or separateness weren’t very enjoyable. Actually they were horrible at times.
    One day either through reading your blog or another dharma book awareness turned on itself and Presence as empty was realized. That insight ended the I Am cycling and these non-dual opening and contraction phases. Permanently.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Regarding the “cycling through I Am” which article are you referring to?

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    Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu Ok I think I conflated your statement here with the cycles I went through. Here you mentioning glimpses before actual realization. For me after I Am and I Am Everything I never saw myself as a person after the fact but as awareness until presence as empty later. It was the intensity of the openings, degree of clarity, presence and non-duality that came and went. I chased the grandeur of it all for a while until discovering UG Krishnamurti.
    “Do note that very often, one is having glimpses and experiences of I AM or vivid spaciousness or some recognition of being an observer, but all these are not the I AM Realization of Thusness Stage 1, nor is Stage 1 realization merely a state of clarity. Self-Inquiry will lead to doubtless realization. I had glimpses of I AM on and off for three years before my doubtless Self-Realization in February 2010”
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Ryan Burton i see. I understand what you mean
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    U g krishnamurti was not so much into I AM, more on anatta and dwell into spontaneous intelligence and skews towards nonconceptuality a bit too much. Also physicalist like AF
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  • Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu Yes it was his points on no-agent no-entity and giving up that transitioned emphasis on I Am-everything to Presence as empty.
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  • Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu what do you mean by physicalist like AF? Actual Freedom?

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    From AtR guide:
    “First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual… ...First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.” - John Tan, 2012, Advice for Taiyaki https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../advice-for...
    "AF is part of the deviation (Soh: of Phase 5) looking into purely physical flesh and blood of pure experience... Some went into details some does not" - John Tan, 2013
    John Tan has undergone a phase initially after his realization of anatta where he became very “physical”.
    “Also John Tan told me a few times many years ago when I met him privately that he has gone through the Actual Freedom phase by his own practice without having read about actual freedom. That is, during his earlier years in anatta, he has gone through a phase where everything is very physical, and there was a sense that he was no different from cats and dogs and trees, physically. It even led to a sense of despair or existential angst. Interestingly, I later found out that AF Richard has also went through a period of existential angst in his earlier years after attaining AF, but I am not sure if it is the same thing. However, Richard often talks about the cats, dogs, trees, carrots being of the same stuff as his [physical] existence as the body only (not exact words but something like that), which was similar to how John Tan described that period for him.
    Personally I don't recall having been stuck in that condition (extremely physical and existential angst), or even if I had it was not for long, perhaps due to the aid of right view (emptiness + dependent origination). My guess is that (and John Tan would agree) not everyone will go through sidetracks like AF Richard or U.G. Krishnamurti after anatta. E.g. Kyle's insight of anatta was followed shortly with realization of emptiness due to the help of right view.” - Soh, 2019
    “(Is your experience now) more physical or like awareness become like a gust of wind or reflection, or holographic?” - John Tan, 2013
    “Yes and very good. There is a very big difference between substantialist non-dual of One-Mind and what you said. In this experience, there is no background reality. It is not about the background Awareness but rather the foreground aggregates that you are talking about - A thought. There is just aggregates that are like foams, bubbles, ethereal having all the same taste without substantiality and implicitly non-dual. No sense of body, mind and the world, nothing actual or truly there.
    Before, when insight of anatta first arose, you still risk the danger of seeing the physical as inherent and truly existing. Therefore there is a period that you are lost, unsure and AF (Actual Freedom) seems appealing - a sign that you have not extended the insight of emptiness to phenomena though you kept saying twofold emptiness.
    At present you focus on the following:
    1. When there is no cold or heat (Soh: See glossary at the bottom of the article)
    2. Total exertion
    For 1, it is not difficult to understand now but for 2, you have not directly or adequately replace the 'Self/self' with the interdependence of whatever arises.” - John Tan, 06/12/2011 E-mail
    “André, to me anatta is a very specific and definite phase of seeing through the background self/Self quite thoroughly at least in the waking state but there is a tendency that experience can somehow turn very "physical, sense-based and causal" for me.
    Every experience is direct, gapless, non-dual, non-conceptual and radiance even total exertion is present, just not empty. Almost equivalent to Actual Freedom as narrated by Richard. In fact I find Richard's description very much my version of arahat 🤣.
    For Kyle, due to his view in emptiness, the experiential insight of anatta not only pierce through the self/Self but also triggered the arising insight of emptiness. However this may not be true (imo) in most cases if one's view isn't firmly established. For me when I first encountered the chariot analogy, there is an immediate and intuitive recognition that it is referring to anatta but I am unable to grasp the essence of the phrase "emptiness and non-arisen" there and then.
    In other words, in addition to self immolation, a specific insight must arise, it is the prajna that clearly sees through the referent is empty and non-arisen. So anatta I would say is about severing the self/Self whereas phase 6 is the blossoming of this specific insight. Extending this insight from self to phenomena, from conventions to magical appearances is then a natural progression.
    As for first bhumi (Soh: related: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism , Definition of First Bhumi) I am seriously not sure and never thought of it.
    I can only say if we practice long enough, there is a frequent occurrence of a clear, clean and pure spring of joy that emerges from nowhere, floating like cloud. A very helpful antidote for negative emotions.
    Even the experience of drinking water is like experiencing a clean and pure stream of luminous sensations in zero dimension similar to a mirage flowing spring water floating in the air.” - John Tan in the Awakening to Reality Discussion Group, 2019, John wrote this maybe a month or two before a breakthrough that Soh had which led to the writing “The Magical Fairytale-like Wonderland and Paradise of this Verdant Earth Free from Affective Emotions, Reactions and Sufferings”
    “Soh: as Richard said, the out of control experience can happen even before anatta (the complete dissolution of self/Self), that is why the "doer" dissolves but the "be-er" is still there, but in actual freedom both dissolves
    John Tan: Quite acute insight and thorough for the state no mind. Means "being" is also deconstructed.”
    Advice for Taiyaki
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Advice for Taiyaki
    Advice for Taiyaki
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    As for you Ryan Burton, in general, for those who break through to anatta, my advise is to stabilize their insights first and be very clear that the two stanzas are always already so - a dharma seal, both stanzas must be thoroughly clear and stable. And have quality time everyday in the state of no-mind, doing zazen, mindfulness of breathing then into total exertion. (http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../when-we-practice... and http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../contemplatingobserv... )
    When anatta is clear and stable, mature your insights into dependent origination and twofold emptiness, and integrate the taste of +A and -A. Also see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-post...
    “Now with your current insight and understanding, what should be the right approach to end this lingering sense of self? Your practice should be always realization, experience and views. Your experience must refine [to be] like the place where there is no heat or cold*. Your anatta view must be extended to whatever arises. Your realization must extend your anatta to dependent origination.” - John Tan, early 2011
    *The Place Where There is No Heat or Cold: A monk asked Tozan, “When cold and heat come, how can we avoid them?”
    Tozan said, “Why don’t you go to the place where there is no cold or heat?”
    The monk said, “What is the place where there is no cold or heat?”
    Tozan said, “When it’s cold, the cold kills you; when it’s hot, the heat kills you.”
    This is not advice to “accept” your situation, as some commentators have suggested, but a direct expression of authentic practice and enlightenment. Master Tozan is not saying, “When cold, shiver; when hot, sweat,” nor is he saying, “When cold, put on a sweater; when hot, use a fan.” In the state of authentic practice and enlightenment, the cold kills you, and there is only cold in the whole universe. The heat kills you, and there is only heat in the whole universe. The fragrance of incense kills you, and there is only the fragrance of incense in the whole universe. The sound of the bell kills you, and there is only “boooong” in the whole universe...
    ~The Flatbed Sutra of Louie Wing, Ted Biringer"
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  • Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu thank you 🙏 I’ll get to work on that first stanza and get back to all of you

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Updated post above
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Also try to meet up with Kyle Dixon if you're in California, he stays in San Francisco. And will be good to find a good teacher, best if you can join a practice community or sangha with a realised teacher. Told the same to the guy who recently broke through to anatta on reddit after conversing with me, he lives in Los Angeles.
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Can I share this thread on AtR blog, will remove your name if you prefer anonymity.

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  • Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu You can share it. Name or no name either are fine. Thank you Soh
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  • Ryan Burton
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu Yes I’ve been sensing finding a teacher as well. Will reach out to Kyle
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Also can you link me the Longchenpa text you mentioned too. Thanks
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  • Aaron Dorje
    Ryan and Soh I'd love to see an interview between you two...Im sure it would be well watched 🙂
    In such an interview it would be great to start with Soh describing in his own words the various stages, with you Ryan asking any relevant questions,
    THEN go on to describe this experience you've had,
    which will provide a nice real-world example.
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  • Aaron Dorje
    ...especially since the interpretability of text on page makes it alot harder to gain certainty one understands what people are talking about, compared to a proper chat
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  • Angelo Grr
    Admin
    Awesome, congrats man, I’m so happy to hear it ☺️
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    Ryan Burton
    Author
    Angelo Grr it’s crazy man. Still awake. Still non-dual. From hearing Frank Yang’s descriptions I would’ve thought this phase would only arise after a massive blast away of all perception of self. To me it was just like waking up. No different than opening your eyes in the morning. Presence as Empty is waking up from I Am Everything. No Mirror is waking up from Presence as empty with reified background. What a trip.
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    Angelo Grr
    Admin
    Ryan Burton yes there can still be a subtle self sense after clear nondual realization. It tends to fall away bc there’s nothing left it refers to 😂
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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Aaron Dorje haha was just telling someone I don't do zoom meetings
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    William Lim
    Soh Wei Yu, why not? Embrace the #newnormal 🙂

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  • Angelo Grr
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu I’m happy to interview you Ryan if you’re up for it 😉. No pressure of course it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but I find it tends to be helpful for others to get the feel of what it’s like to go through these shifts.
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    • Ryan Burton
      Author
      Angelo Grr Sure we can do an interview I'll dm you and we can figure out a time
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    • Angelo Grr
      Admin
      Ryan Burton sounds good
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    • Carlus Sego
      Soh Wei Yu in the world of interconnection and inter penetration you are being a boob of separation!
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    • Ryan Burton
      Author
      Soh Wei Yu do you have any advice for sleeping problems post Anatta? There’s been too much clarity and presence to sleep at reasonable hours

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      Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Read Tips on Energy Imbalances chapter in AtR guide, be somatic and dont strain or overfocus on the radiance
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    • May be an image of text that says '4:50 John Tan 4G 11h Reply Award Ryan Author Neryu have advice or problems Anatta? been much and presence sleep reasonable hours 2m Like Reply Award Write reply... 3:53 PM Ryan cant sleep 3:53PM/ Lol energy imbalance.. and come back later. don't think it :31PM So far most this problem maybe should write something about this to caution ppl. Lol see.. yeah just told him to read energy imbalance chapter Reply Hi R U S D F G Î J K z L c B N 123 M space'
      1[4:31 pm, 01/12/2021] John Tan: Lol energy imbalance...just don't think it and come back later.🤣
      [4:46 pm, 01/12/2021] John Tan: So far most have this problem maybe should write something about this to caution ppl.
      Soh: Lol i see.. yeah

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