This is something I've been wanting to write for some time but finally got around to it.

There is a reason why I do not release my list of people I wrote in a text document over the years on people I think has realised anatta in the AtR group. Because even if I was 80 to 90% correct, it can't be all correct. And it would be misleading to release these names. There has been a few cases in the past that there were people talked about realising no-self, but upon probing, later it was found that such a person is talking about impersonality, or an experience of nondual, or a state of no mind, or has not thoroughly overcome view of one mind, has not truly and deeply penetrated self/Self, and so on. Or possibly even fallen into a conceptual and intellectual understanding of no-self.

So please, let it be known that Soh and John Tan and AtR does not officially authenticate, authorize, confirm, or endorse anyone's realisations. Soh and John Tan are not spiritual teachers or gurus (we have made that abundantly clear many times), have no students, do not represent any lineage, and present information here just as-is for the benefit of readers that find benefit in them, and furthermore often recommend people to find greatly awakened teachers from a proper lineage (related: Special Post Listing Teachers That We Trust). Readers should do their own due diligence in finding out whether a teacher or person has truly realised a given realisation if they wish to work with the teacher/person.

Now, hypothetically, if I was a teacher representing a lineage (I'm not!), I would definitely have to converse and work with a certain student for many years, with back and forth conversations 1 on 1 so that I can have an intimate understanding on the student's progression, experience and insights and their effects on everyday experience. I wouldn't carelessly declare that such and such a person has realised X and Y only to later be mistaken about it, just because someone was able to write a very nice piece of writing or description about no-self based on a one off experience or insight.

 

Of relevance to this topic here, John Tan said to me two months ago:

 [31/1/22, 8:40:00 PM] John Tan: Person A must be guided properly
[31/1/22, 8:40:19 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. how should she be guided?
‎[31/1/22, 8:49:30 PM] John Tan: ‎image omitted
[31/1/22, 8:50:26 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Happy new year!
[1/2/22, 8:53:25 AM] John Tan: She is in anatta and overjoyed by her  insight.🤣
[1/2/22, 9:40:35 AM] John Tan: Person A Not bad however not exactly "natural state" yet but it is the beginning of the direct insight into "natural state".  To be fully "natural" and "spontnaeous", both self and phenomena, arising and ceasing must all be de-constructed thoroughly.

When sitting, there is no "body" and "no one" sitting.  Only the sensation dancing.  The "butt" that touches the "floor" forms the sensation of "hardness and firmness" -- the earth element.

Now, don't think but feel the sensation of "hardness and firmness", feel the earth element in anatta; so vividly and solidly present, now ask: where r all these sensations?  So solidly and undeniably "appears" but "where"?

Happy anatta during CNY!👍

also paste her the 2 fold emptiness when I talk to u about Daniel Ingram...I forgot where is the link...lol
[1/2/22, 9:48:52 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[1/2/22, 9:50:27 AM] Soh Wei Yu: You replied at where?
[1/2/22, 9:52:16 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oh ok sawit
[1/2/22, 9:52:18 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Saw it
[1/2/22, 9:53:36 AM] John Tan: Don't anyhow anyhow say ppl has reached anatta insight...🤦‍♂️
[1/2/22, 9:56:58 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. but she has realised right
[1/2/22, 10:03:26 AM] John Tan: Yes clearly there.
[1/2/22, 10:07:11 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. i think its not very difficult to tell if someone has realised anatta 🤣 but i used to think X realised anatta and turned out wrong
[1/2/22, 10:37:28 AM] John Tan: Turn out a few is wrong
[1/2/22, 10:37:30 AM] John Tan: Lol
[1/2/22, 10:40:05 AM] John Tan: U still can't differentiate clearly. Because u posted so much, u can't really see from expressions; it is easy to associate certain experiences to the description of anatta without penetrating deep into the release.
[1/2/22, 10:41:40 AM] John Tan: What is important is the releasing of the center self/Self via the insight in real-time.  For u, u r looking at how ppl write...

 
[1/2/22, 1:30:46 PM] John Tan: Don't go and post this again as if we r authenticating ppl realization.
[1/2/22, 1:31:38 PM] John Tan: I just don't want u to go ard authenticating ppl as like an anatta bot.

 [27/3/22, 7:42:17 PM] John Tan: Ic.  For u, everyone is anatta that expresses certain experiences is anatta. 🤣🤦‍♂️

Like u, not easy for Person A to find a teacher now. She would have to have teachers that have almost 3-4th vision in dzogchen or anatta and emptiness insights into 3 states.   Just associating with compassionate teachers and attend some talks is enough.

 ...........

 

Here is what the Buddha said on such matters: 


Ud 6.2 Jatila Sutta

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Jatila Sutta: Ascetics

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Now at that time the Blessed One, having emerged from his seclusion in the late afternoon, was sitting outside the doorway. Then King Pasenadi Kosala went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. Then seven coiled-hair ascetics, seven Jain ascetics, seven naked ascetics, seven one-cloth ascetics, and seven wanderers their nails grown long, their body-hair grown long walked past not far from the Blessed One. King Pasenadi Kosala saw the seven coiled-hair ascetics, seven Jain ascetics, seven naked ascetics, seven one-cloth ascetics, and seven wanderers their nails grown long, their body-hair grown long — walking past not far from the Blessed One. On seeing them, he arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, knelt down with his right knee on the ground, saluted the ascetics with his hands before his heart, and announced his name to them three times: "I am the king, venerable sirs, Pasenadi Kosala. I am the king, venerable sirs, Pasenadi Kosala. I am the king, venerable sirs, Pasenadi Kosala." Then not long after the ascetics had passed, he returned to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Of those in the world who are arahants or on the path to arahantship, are these among them?"

"Your majesty, as a layman enjoying sensuality; living crowded with wives and children; using Kasi fabrics and sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, and creams; handling gold and silver, it is hard for you to know whether these are arahants or on the path to arahantship.

"It is through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It is through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It is through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"It is through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning."

"How amazing, lord! How awesome! How well that was put by the Blessed One! 'Your majesty, as a layman enjoying sensuality; living crowded with wives and children; using Kasi fabrics and sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, and creams; handling gold and silver, it is hard for you to know whether these are arahants or on the path to arahantship.

"'It is through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"'It is through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"'It is through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

"'It is through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.'

"These men, lord, are my spies, my scouts, returning after going out through the countryside. They go out first, and then I go. Now, when they have scrubbed off the dirt and mud, are well-bathed and well-perfumed, have trimmed their hair and beards, and have put on white clothes, they will go about endowed and provided with the five strings of sensuality."

Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: One should not make an effort everywhere. One should not be another's hireling. One should not live dependent on another. One should not make the Dhamma a trade. 

 

 

 

...........................

 

 

    Tommy McNally
    I spoke to Daniel Ingram a while ago and we discussed something similar. He spent a lot of time on one-to-ones with people who'd claimed x, y or z attainments, and realised that almost all of them were wrong and probably hadn't even attained stream entry, even by MCTB standards. I may be misquoting the specific numbers, but I believe it was over 90%.
    Sometimes people know the 'right' words to use and can present a convincing narrative to support their claims, but ultimately they're just deceiving themselves. I say this as someone who did exactly the same thing, so it frustrates me to see others fall into that same trap.
    This is why I appreciate yours and John's refusal to engage in public "dharma diagnosis"; it's unfair to expect you to vouch for people you've never met, or engaged with for any length of time.

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