I, Kulla, went to a charnel ground
    and saw a woman’s body abandoned there,
    discarded in a cemetery,
    full of worms that devoured.
    “See this bag of bones, Kulla—
    diseased, filthy, rotten,
    oozing and trickling,
    a fool’s delight.”
    Taking the teaching as a mirror
    for realizing knowledge and vision,
    I examined this body,
    hollow, inside and out.
    As this is, so is that;
    as that is, so is this.
    As below, so above;
    as above, so below.
    As by day, so by night;
    as by night, so by day.
    As before, so after;
    as after, so before.
    Even the music of a five-piece band
    can never give such pleasure
    as when, with unified mind,
    you rightly discern the Dhamma.
    Yin Ling Is the above nondualism?
    suttacentral.net
    suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway

    15 Comments


    Ryan Burton
    Theravada is very much so dualistic. It’s a thing to consider as well that there’s contention on what Nibbana actually is within Theravada itself since it can mean a few different things.
    There are Suttas that define it as the end of the defilements here and now, as the cessation of perception and feeling, there are Suttas that call it an ayatana (sphere, base or dimension), even a particular Sutta that refers to nibbana as vijnanam-anidassanam (consciousness without surface) which some people take as a reference to luminous mind. Everyone has their position based on their understanding and experience of path and unfortunately all people can do is post Sutta quotes and defend their views.
    Mahayana differentiates itself from Theravada not only in terms of view but in terms of attainment. For example, In the Yogacarabhumi Shastra the cessation of perception and feeling is ranked as the 9th samadhi the pinnacle of Samatha— the arhats Nirvana, but they subordinate this attainment and consider it lower than the realization of Buddha-nature.
    I have no idea which definition of Nibbana or enlightenment is the actual Nibbana Buddha realized. We cannot even come to a consensus on what Jhana is these days lol.
    Mahayana and Vajrayana say Samsara is Nirvana. This is really not the Theravada view and probably considered wrong view from the perspective of early Buddhism.


    Yin Ling
    Ryan Burton thanks for the input!
    Yes truly so, theravada is still quite a provisional teaching mainly, though eventually end point is anatta, the Arahat realisation
    Which is non dual.
    Then again if one really understand what the Buddha’s intent is, which is to teach ppl based on where they are at, there’s really not much dissonance in between schools, from my little understanding.
    So the arguments happen mainly because ppl don’t see the big picture, the whole.


  • Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
    Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    On the limit of nirvana is the limit of samsara, sharing this clarification for readers:
    Kyle Dixon said recently:
    “That which is the limit of Nirvana is also the limit of Samsara, there is not the slightest difference between the two."
    This is because nirvana is the cessation of samsara.”
    “Nirvāna simply entails seeing samsāra correctly by means of experiential insight, and completely uprooting the conditioning that sustained samsāra. It is not some other place.”
    “Samsara and nirvana are inseparable so you are already free
    Freedom, or liberation, results from experiential knowledge of the nature of phenomena. Samsara and nirvana may be inseparable, but if you lack realization of the genuine meaning of this, then you dwell in ignorance and are not free.
    The parable often cited is that of a vagrant who sleeps on the street using a pillow with gold hidden inside it. The vagrant possesses the gold, and is therefore effectively wealthy, but lacking knowledge of the gold, he dwells in delusion and suffers.”
    “In Mahāyāna, the non-duality of samsāra and nirvāna is taught so that samsāra is not reified as something to be rejected in order to attain something else, separate from samsāra that we call nirvāna.
    Rather, a Mahāyāni understands that when we awaken to see the very nature of that which we call samsara, nirvāna occurs.”
    “Ultimately
    ...the operative term.
    One can indeed say that samsāra and nirvāna are not different from the standpoint of ultimate truth. However if we assert this from the standpoint of our relative condition then we run the risk of negating the path and erring into nihilism.”
    “The entire purpose of the buddhadharma is to effectively end the illness that is samsāra.”
    “Samsāra is endless in context. It is endless for those who fail to uproot it's cause. That is the point being made by samsāra being "endless." So long as the cause is present, the effect that is samsāra will unfold indefinitely.”


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Zen teacher David Loy:
    Nagarjuna never actually claims, as is sometimes thought, that “samsara is nirvana.” Instead, he says that no difference can be found between them. The koti (limit, boundary) of nirvana is the koti of samsara. They are two different ways of experiencing this world. Nirvana is not another realm or dimension but rather the clarity and peace that arise when our mental turmoil ends, because the objects with which we have been identifying are realized to be shunya. Things have no reality of their own that we can cling to, since they arise and pass away according to conditions. Nor can we cling to this truth. The most famous verse in the Karikas (25:24) sums this up magnificently: “Ultimate serenity is the coming-to-rest of all ways of ‘taking’ things, the repose of named things. No truth has been taught by a Buddha for anyone anywhere.””


  • Soh Wei Yu
    More from David Loy: ""That saṁsāra is nirvāṇa is a major tenet of Mahāyāna philosophy. "Nothing of saṁsāra is different from nirvāṇa, nothing of nirvāṇa is different from saṁsāra. That which is the limit of nirvāṇa is also the limit of saṁsāra; there is not the slightest difference between the two." [1] And yet there must be some difference between them, for otherwise no distinction would have been made and there would be no need for two words to describe the same state. So Nāgārjuna also distinguishes them: "That which, taken as causal or dependent, is the process of being born and passing on, is, taken noncausally and beyond all dependence, declared to be nirvāṇa." [2] There is only one reality -- this world, right here -- but this world may be experienced in two different ways. Saṁsāra is the "relative" world as usually experienced, in which "I" dualistically perceive "it" as a collection of objects which interact causally in space and time. Nirvāṇa is the world as it is in itself, nondualistic in that it incorporates both subject and object into a whole which, Mādhyamika insists, cannot be characterized (Chandrakīrti: "Nirvāṇa or Reality is that which is absolved of all thought-construction"), but which Yogācāra nevertheless sometimes calls "Mind" or "Buddhanature," and so forth." – Zen teacher David Loy, https://web.archive.org/.../FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david.htm "
    WEB.ARCHIVE.ORG
    The Difference Between Sa^msaara and Nirvaa.na
    The Difference Between Sa^msaara and Nirvaa.na

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    "Mahayana differentiates itself from Theravada not only in terms of view but in terms of attainment. "
    Yes, but for this reason:
    Lankavatara Sutra states, “...Therefore, Mahamati, the assurances given to shravakas and bodhisattvas do not differ. Mahamati, what doesn’t differ is the taste of liberation when shravakas and pratyeka-buddhas or buddhas and tathagatas get rid of the obstruction of passion, not when they get rid of the obstruction of knowledge. Mahamati, the obstruction of knowledge is purified when they see that dharmas have no self. The obstruction of passion is removed prior to this when they become accustomed to seeing that persons have no self. It is when the seventh consciousness ceases that they are liberated from the obstruction of dharmas. And it is when the habit-energy of the repository consciousness ceases that their purification is complete.”


  • Soh Wei Yu
    "For example, In the Yogacarabhumi Shastra the cessation of perception and feeling is ranked as the 9th samadhi the pinnacle of Samatha— the arhats Nirvana, but they subordinate this attainment and consider it lower than the realization of Buddha-nature. "
    Yes but even in Theravada, besides modern (mis)interpretation by some monks, 9th samadhi and other 'cessation fruition' type experiences are just considered mundane. They are not to be confused as true attainment of the paths like stream entry to arahantship, which requires insight, let alone the nirvana of an arahat. As explained in https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf%20 and http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-meaning-of...
    Although it is true that arahats' cessation is considered an extreme from Mahayana perspective which sees attainment of Buddhahood for all beings as ultimate goal.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    About ayatana: "Āyatana often does refer to a “realm, plane or sphere”, but not always. For example at AN9:46, saññāvedayitanirodha, “the cessation of perception and feeling” (which is the cessation of the mind), is called an āyatana. Here the word āyatana simply seems to point to the fact that such cessation is possible. In this context āyatana cannot refer to a “realm”; rather it refers to the ending of all realms. Again, when Nibbāna is called an āyatana (which actually is very rare; the most celebrated occurrence being Ud 8:1), it is probably used in the same way as nirodhāyatana, and it is perhaps best translated as “the principle of extinguishment“." - dhammawheel
    Whatever epithets the Buddha use for Nibbana it is just a reference to a cessation of the kleshas, hence not contradictory to Nagarjuna's statement about nirvana and samsara.
    The Sautrāntika offer the best and most accurate interpretation of pali canon's nibbana:
    "For Sautrāntika commentators nirvāṇa as an analytical cessation (pratisaṃkhyānirodha) is a merely a conceptual designation (prajñapti) and doesn't refer to an entity or state that is substantially existent (dravyasat). It is a non-implicative negation (prasajyapratiṣedha), that is, a negation that doesn't imply the presence of some other entity. Therefore nirvāṇa simply refers to a cessation that is the termination of defilements that are abandoned by the correct practice of the noble path."

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  • 6m


      Ryan Burton
      Soh Wei Yu mmm this is good


    • Ryan Burton
      Soh Wei Yu Yes but from the Theravada standpoint the question is— is this later teaching here actually true? I personally agree with it but many Theravadins wouldn’t be convinced with the Lankavatara’s passage here.


    • Ryan Burton
      Soh Wei Yu For rate use of the word ayatana has also been used for example used when referring to the formless attainments but is that only in the commentaries?
      Could be true that Nibbana is simply the end of the defilements. I don’t know that to be truth in the same way I could say I understand the experiential truth of non-duality or Anatta.
      The same way that God could exist but I don’t know it’s non-existence to be an absolute. Imo it’s one thing to be open to possibilities and another to be possessing of a view that Nibbana is this or that definitively.
      Brahm, Pa-Auk, and Buddhadasa I mean most of the Theravada world I could think of refer to Nibbana as cessation of perception and feeling and that by emerging from nirdoha the effluents are destroyed. That’s laid out in the Anupada Sutta I’m sure as you know.
      I’m curious as to how you define it as a mundane experience when the Suttas refer to defilements vanishing upon emerging from nirdoha Samapatti?


    • Ryan Burton
      Soh Wei Yu where is that Mahayana Sutta that says Arhats emerge from Nirvana and re-enter Samsara after some 80 kalpas? Do you know what I’m taking about? I think it was the Lanka but I just word searched for that passage and couldn’t find it.


    • Ryan Burton
      Soh Wei Yu you refer to Cessations as Phase 3 in ATR correct? I think this is good point to note because I’ve known people who’ve had cessation or many cessations and are very much still experiencing duality and a separate sense of self.


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Geoff:
      Hi Zom,
      Even in the Visuddhimagga the cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti), a.k.a. the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha), while nominally mentioned as similar to nibbāna in a couple of passages, nevertheless is not the same as nibbāna. Visuddhimagga 23.52:
      As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.
      It also can't be designated as the same as nibbāna because, as the Visuddhimagga points out, the cessation attainment requires mastery of the four formless attainments before it can be entered. Since there are arahants who haven't developed the formless attainments, they are incapable of attaining the cessation of apperception and feeling. Nevertheless, they are fully liberated through discernment.
      All the best,
      Geoff


    • Soh Wei Yu
      " No. The attainment of cessation of perception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodhasamāpatti) is only attainable by non-returners and arahants, who are definitely ariyas. The non-ariya version is called a non-percipient attainment (asaññasamāpatti)."


    • Soh Wei Yu
      - Geoff


    • Soh Wei Yu
      " Hi Zom & all,
      All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).
      Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).
      In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.
      All the best,
      Geoff"


    • Soh Wei Yu
      "God could exist "
      I have no doubts about dependent origination, anatta and emptiness. This goes beyond agnosticism about the existence and non-existence of various things, when such notions, including 'existence' and 'non-existence' are wiped out in the deep insight into the truth of anatta, D.O. and emptiness.


    • Soh Wei Yu
      All Geoff posts are recommended reading in Dhammawheel. https://www.dhammawheel.com/memberlist.php...
      Just as all Malcolm posts are recommended in Dharmawheel https://www.dharmawheel.net/memberlist.php...
      Also John Tan told me Astus is good but I haven't read many of them yet https://www.dharmawheel.net/memberlist.php...


    • Soh Wei Yu
      On being roused from cessation, that is from Lanka and other sutras:
      "Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:45 am
      Nirvana refers to the state of cessation. Cessation of what? one has to ask. Cessation of birth in samsara. By what is rebirth in samsara caused? It is caused by the afflictions that lead to karma, which in turn ripen as suffering.
      Arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas on the three pure stages, and buddhas are not subject to rebirth in samsara.Why? Because they have eliminated the afflictive obscuration.
      However, in order to attain full buddhahood, one must gather the two accumulations. Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not gather the full two accumulations, and therefore, have obscurations to omniscience, and also do not bear the major and minor marks (bodhisattvas on the three pure stages also have obscurations to omniscience). Thus, according to the Lanka and other sūtras, they are roused from their samadhis of cessation, encouraged to complete their two accumulations and eliminate their two obscurations, beginning with the Mahāyāna path of accumulation. Even Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not get a short cut to buddhahood. "


    • Soh Wei Yu
      " Nibbāna is the realization of the noble truth of the cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha ariyasacca), which is not synonymous with nirodhasamāpatti. DN 22:
      And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving [for sensual pleasure, craving existence, craving non-existence].
      Your interpretation of the supramundane paths and fruitions is not supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka. This has already been pointed out on this thread. Your interpretation of fruition attainment isn't supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka either.
      All the best,
      Geoff"


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Also another issue is that most vipassana teachers do not teach the anatta insight. Which is sad. https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../vipassana...
      Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
      Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        What is important is to realise this without doubt and also see that it applies to all phenomena. Proliferation will end.
        SN 5.10 PTS: S i 134
        CDB i 229
        Vajira Sutta: Vajira
        translated from the Pali by
        Bhikkhu Bodhi
        © 1997
        Alternate translation: Thanissaro
        Setting at Savatthi. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Vajira dressed and, taking bowl and robe, entered Savatthi for alms. When she had walked for alms in Savatthi [135] and had returned from her alms round, after her meal she went to the Blind Men's Grove for the day's abiding. Having plunged into the Blind Men's Grove, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding.
        Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Vajira, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:
        By whom has this being been created?
        Where is the maker of the being?
        Where has the being arisen?
        Where does the being cease?
        Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Vajira: "Now who is this that recited the verse — a human being or a non-human being?" Then it occurred to her: "This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited the verse desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in me, desiring to make me fall away from concentration."
        Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses:
        Why now do you assume 'a being'?
        Mara, have you grasped a view?
        This is a heap of sheer constructions:
        Here no being is found.
        Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
        The word 'chariot' is used,
        So, when the aggregates are present,
        There's the convention 'a being.'
        It's only suffering that comes to be,
        Suffering that stands and falls away.
        Nothing but suffering comes to be,
        Nothing but suffering ceases.
        Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhuni Vajira knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.

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      • 1m
       
        Ryan Burton
        Soh Wei Yu I don’t have doubt about DO, Anatta and emptiness either. I still don’t understand how you can know without a doubt with absolutely certainty that a thing doesn’t exist.


      • Ryan Burton
        Soh Wei Yu no single thing possesses substance, no single thing exists independently, existing or not existing are conceptual elaborations for empty phenomena— understood.
        Still don’t see how with absolutely certainty, without omniscience into the very fabric of existence, that you could say, for example, there is no beginning of existence or there is no end.
        To me it would be belief and extrapolation to have conviction in that. Even if you could logically deduce it unless I could somehow see that directly I wouldn’t be able to say “I know there is no beginning.”
        Again this is different than saying because there are no objects or beings then there’s no beginnings, endings or existence. Of course in that sense I could say there’s no beginning there’s nothing here.




      • Ryan Burton
        Soh Wei Yu what’s the rebuttal here for destruction of effluents upon exiting Nirodha in the Anupada Sutta?


      • Soh Wei Yu
        Ryan Burton Anupada Sutta is describing an "arahant liberated in both ways", it does not apply to the "arahants liberated by wisdom".


      • Ng Xin Zhao
        Soh Wei Yu What's your understanding of liberated both ways vs by wisdom?


      • Soh Wei Yu
        Ng Xin Zhao Like Geoff explained above:
        " Hi Zom & all,
        All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).
        Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).
        In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.
        All the best,
        Geoff"


      • Ng Xin Zhao
        Soh Wei Yu What I got from sutta is this, not sure if you can get more understanding out of it. It seems according to the sutta, that both arahants can have the formless attainments, just difference in perhaps spending more time in direct experiencing?
        And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. And they understand that with wisdom. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the one freed by wisdom in a definitive sense.”
        And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way. And they understand that with wisdom. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the one freed both ways in a definitive sense.”
        SUTTACENTRAL.NET
        suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
        suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway


      • Soh Wei Yu
        "know without a doubt with absolutely certainty that a thing doesn’t exist"
        Anatta, D.O. and emptiness, barring some form of omniscience, does not make you certain that a conventional thing like Mt Everest exist or not exist conventionally.
        It does however put an end to the delusion that there is something truly created, truly originated, abiding and ceasing in and of itself with its own intrinsic existence. Instead whatever is conventionally labelled like a 'chariot' is merely labelled on an aggregation, a dependent origination, and fundamentally is non-arisen and non-originated*. Any delusions of an internal agent or external creator is likewise put to an end, as there is clarity that whatever originates, dependently originates and does not arise from self, other, both or causelessly.
        "This humankind is attached to self-production
        Or holds to production by another.
        Those who have not understood this
        Have not seen it as a dart.
        But one who sees (this as it is),
        Having drawn out the dart,
        Does not think, 'I am the agent,'
        Nor does she think, 'Another is the agent.'
        This humankind is possessed by conceit,
        Fettered by conceit, bound by conceit.
        Speaking vindictively because of their views,
        They do not go beyond samsara."
        - Tatiyananatitthiya Sutta
        "On a mere conventional level, it is indeed true that an effect is produced from a cause, but, if investigated on the ultimate level, production cannot be observed. If production capable of withstanding logical analysis did exist, it must necessarily be a production by means of one of the following four extremes: self, other, both or neither (or causeless). But these are unreasonable.
        As the Root Verses of the Middle Way says:
        Not from self, not from other,
        Not from both and not from neither—
        Not for any entity at all anywhere,
        Is there ever any production."
        *“Pursuant to the middle view, Tson-kha-pa cites Nagarjuna's Yuk-tisastika and Candrakirti's Yuktisastika-vrtti.
        Nagarjuna:
        What arises in dependence is not born;
        That is proclaimed by the supreme knower of reality 😊 Buddha).
        Candrakirti:
        (The realist opponent says): If (as you say) whatever thing arises in dependence is not even born, then why does (the Madhyamika) say it is not born? But if you (Madhyamika) have a reason for saying (this thing) is not born, then you should not say it "arises in dependence." Therefore, because of mutual inconsistency, (what you have said) is not valid.)
        (The Madhyamika replies with compassionate interjection:)
        Alas! Because you are without ears or heart you have thrown a challenge that is severe on us! When we say that anything arising in dependence, in the manner of a reflected image, does not arise by reason of self-existence - at that time where is the possibility of disputing (us)!” - excerpt from Calming the Mind and Discerning the Real: Buddhist Meditation and the Middle View
        Four Great Logical Arguments of the Middle Way
        LOTSAWAHOUSE.ORG
        Four Great Logical Arguments of the Middle Way
        Four Great Logical Arguments of the Middle Way

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        • Edited

      • Soh Wei Yu
        Ng Xin Zhao Yes.. I'm not saying only one type of arahant can access formless jhanas.
        But also as it states above, " Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. "


      • Ryan Burton
        Soh Wei Yu “Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel.”
        AN 9.042
        On the quotes you shared by Geoff or those you've read yourself, the line that says "and having seen with mental discernment his mental fermentations are completely ended"
        Could you share some passages or commentary that explain further on the eradication of the defilements? Or if Geoff has an experiential account of it.


      • Soh Wei Yu
        Have you read this page by Geoff (also the whole Measureless Mind pdf is a great read):
        Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
        AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
        Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
        Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        Also, going through the jhanas and contemplating with insight wisdom can be helpful for overcoming the last or higher fetters an anagami still has, which includes craving for form and formless realms. But it is not the jhanas themselves or nirodha samapatti that is nirvana itself or liberating. It is the wisdom that penetrates these states that liberates.
        As Malcolm said,
        “The Dhyanas were not the vehicle of Buddha's awakening, rather he coursed through them in order to remove traces of rebirth associated with the form and formless realms associated with the dhyanas” - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../dzogchen-meditation...
        Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
        AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
        Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
        Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana

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        • 3h
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      • Yin Ling
        Soh Wei Yu don’t quite get what Malcolm is saying here, how does one remove “traces of rebirth associated with those realms associated with jhanas ?” Hmmmm


      • Soh Wei Yu
        Yin Ling an anagami still has lingering traces that can cause rebirth in jhana planes, these traces cause subtle seeking on subtle meditative phenomena like the bliss of jhanic states. When a learner or anagami experiences these states but contemplates the three characteristics it can cause certain bondage or fetters to be overcome.

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        The jhanas in themselves do not liberate without wisdom.
        For example mn1:
        ““He perceives the gods of Great Fruit as the gods of Great Fruit. Having perceived the gods of Great Fruit as the gods of Great Fruit, he conceives the gods of Great Fruit, he conceives himself in the gods of Great Fruit, he conceives himself apart from the gods of Great Fruit, he conceives the gods of Great Fruit to be ‘mine,’ he delights in the gods of Great Fruit. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.”
        (And the same for the four formless realms and even nibbana)
        SUTTACENTRAL.NET
        suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
        suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway

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        • 2h

      • Yin Ling
        Soh Wei Yu oic that’s what Malcolm wants to say thanks!

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