Any comments on this? I am still investigating if Non-duality can be used as a tool for Buddhist enlightenment.
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    Dhamma and Non-duality

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    I wrote a critique on this article.
    Critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Article "Dhamma and Non-duality"
    Critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Article "Dhamma and Non-duality"
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    Critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Article "Dhamma and Non-duality"
    Critique on Bhikkhu Bodhi's Article "Dhamma and Non-duality"

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    Myriad Objects
    Geoff discussed this exact paper here.
    He explains that Bhikkhu Bodhi is mischaracterizing and misunderstanding Mahayana views
    He ties it into Ven. Nyanananda as well, and shows connections to the suttas
    I recommend reading & sharing this
    Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Myriad Objects interesting, thanks!


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Myriad Objects geoff’s explanation is good and i will add it to the atr blog


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Soh Wei Yu Finally finish reading wow.
    Thanks! Very good article. I kinda get the 7 stage's usefulness now.
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    Dharma Connection: Nirvana In The Different Schools Of Buddhism
    Dharma Connection: Nirvana In The Different Schools Of Buddhism


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Also on a completely different topic.. i also wrote a critique on ven thanissaro’s explanation of anatta which is misleading:
    Kyle would know as he is always refuting people on reddit holding the confused views of ven thanissaro. I am glad that some other theravadin venerables refuted those views.

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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    I tried to read but very convoluted and too academic for me as practitioner , or maybe I’m not focusing.
    Non duality imo is a safe way to realize anatta. It will bring to a powerful and clear realization.
    And when anatta (buddhism non dual) is realized, non dual is undeniable. Like how the sun rise from the east , one can’t deny it, it’s super super clear.
    Anatta is implicitly non dual. There’s no duality in here as there’s no perceiver.
    Most ppl who want to jump right into anatta without understanding non dual end up not properly realize anatta but put up a front of “fake no self” , denying the core of self in this body, and become a very dissociated and nihilistic practitioner .
    They tend to talk abotj “no person doing anything, making judgments, no feelings, no personality etc” very nihilistic
    It is all over the web and Facebook.
    This is not realization. Only full of intellectualisation.
    The Bahiya sutta is non dual. That was how Bahiya was taught to practise.
    In the seen only the seen.
    In the heard only the heard.
    Ever always so, ever always non-dual.
    This kind of realisation is alive, vivid, beautiful, blissful, rich, and intimate.
    You melt into the universe, you become the universe.
    It’s your own true face.
    Zen satori is this.
    How to doubt?

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    Soh Wei Yu
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    Yin Ling also kalaka sutta etc


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  • Myriad Objects
    Soh Wei Yu This is from an old translator from Pali to english from the 1950s, Bhikkhu Ñānamoli
    Even he seems to have considered contact (phassa) to be connected to a subject-object split in experience resulting from ignorance
    (if I’m reading this right)
    May be an image of text that says '613. Sala yatana the organization of expe- (1) ajjhättikâyatand rience. (the internal sense-bases, i.e. sense organs.) (2) bahiddhayatana the experience as organized. (the external sense-bases, -bases the sense objects) Experience as cleavage between organization and the organized (which are inseparable but distinguishable). (1) is distinct from (2) in that (with ignorance) the organization appears "pointing" to "centre" which is the "I". while (2) has the character of the inert, the resistant, what hides or screens (and so suggests "substance" behind it). The cleavage is the necessary basis for Phassa'

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  • AN 4:24  Kāḷaka Sutta | At Kāḷaka’s Park
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    AN 4:24  Kāḷaka Sutta | At Kāḷaka’s Park
    AN 4:24  Kāḷaka Sutta | At Kāḷaka’s Park

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  • Myriad Objects
    Soh Wei Yu Here’s a note from Ven. Ñānavīra.
    He was controversial, but he too seems to relate the subject-object split to ignorance and contact (phassa)
    May be an image of text


  • Myriad Objects
    more from the same Bhikkhu
    May be an image of text


  • May be an image of text


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Reminds me steve hagen book buddhism plain and simple (a good and recommended book)
    No photo description available.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Yin Ling even satipatthana and countless other suttas


    Yin Ling
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu yes all major suttas are non dual
    Satipathanna especially.
    Experience the body in the body.
    Experience feeling in the feeling.
    I feel getting some insight is foremost. Even I Am. It creates confidence and faith
    Too much intellectualisation just waste so much time


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    At later stage it’s not even just the sensation being non dual( no perceiver)
    It’s the whole scenery with all the sensations arising in one flow. No duality no break no gap. No past or present. Just one whole flow. Can’t even say it’s one. Just this.
    So clear and powerful.
    No doubt.


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling "It’s your own true face.
    Zen satori is this.
    How to doubt?"
    This is exactly how doubt can arise. The usage of your true face can be read as imposing a true self which is clung to. I know you don't mean this, but from non-dual perspective, it's easy to misinterpret it like that.

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    Yin Ling
    Admin
    The doubt will be gone when one recognise that true face coz the self is gone. It is not intellectual but a deep realisation after lots of lots cycle of refinement and practise


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    I agree there can still be grasping as emptiness is a separate insight. But grasping to the personal self as identity is gone at satori


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling Sorry, I am still a bit sensitive to the terminology true face. If it's identical with suchness, emptiness, etc, I am more ok with those terminologies. Although likely I am still misconstruing those terms as well.


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling you were talking about awareness is not right some time ago. Is that awareness non-dual?
    Cause some of the non-dual books I am reading now sort of uses the notion of dissolving the self into the space of awareness which has no boundaries.
    Awareness they use here is consciousness I think.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Ng Xin Zhao it’s a terminology in zen.
    Every tradition have their own terminology and it gets quite confusing at one point. Eventually we ourselves willl have to decide how we want to use it coz certain termilogg create imprints in our mind. It is good if you feel that it doesn’t suit you, don’t use the word true face .


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Even
    mind, consciousness, true face
    Have similar effect
    Suchness is very hard to use when one haven’t seen “true face” because what is suchness to you?


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    I wrote about awareness and my opinion on awareness in the post I pinned on my page.
    It is not apart from phenomenas
    Phenomenas nature is self-aware and empty of essence
    You can even say there is no awareness
    No material
    No sensation
    Just suchness
    But this nature is not sthg we have ever come across in our usual experience
    So it’s hard to teach suchness straight away. It will even mislead and cause wrong understanding
    So need to step by step

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  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling I see suchness now as: Just like that lo.
    Experiences are just experiences. Anything we add onto it is delusional. Notions like beings, time, space. The thinking mind can still function on its own helping in the survival of this body and mind without such delusion.
    It's something to be experienced, not forced, something to be realized, not gamified by using ego. Not to think oneself towards it.
    I welcome corrections.

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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    This is not authoritative
    To me
    suchness is the nature of reality When anatta, dependent arising and emptiness is clearly understood and realized
    All appearances becomes one own empty clarity, and nothing apart.
    All appearances manifest yet not arising , not truly out there, they only come forth according to conditions. Yet conditions and manifestation are not cause and effect.. just dependent
    All is like that. There is no self playing any controller or doer role. There cannot be one, as self causes thing to not function.
    I am sure I have cognitive obscurations that I haven’t see through. But for now suchness to me is this.
    It’s a simple word which takes so much work to truly intuit and understand and I am still working hard at it












  • Nixon Na
    This article is old but gold. Bhikkhu Bodhi pointed out the absence of non-duality in the original teachings. In fact, this has already been established by scholars to be a concept of later development.
    For what it’s worth, if non-duality, anatta, or any other concepts lessen your tanha (craving), clinging, greed, hatred and delusion towards the 5 aggregates, then by Dhamma’s standards, it is a useful tool.
    If one becomes more conceited, delusionally proud or more attached to pleasant states or awakened statuses, then this ironically is fool’s gold.
    The true measure of this path, as Bhikkhu Bodhi said, is ultimately how much clinging and defilements we have rather than how much “no-self” or “no-one-there-anatta” one has perceived.

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    Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Geoff wrote a good critique on the misunderstanding of Bhikkhu Bodhi on Mahayana teachings. It is good to read thoroughly without a biased mind.
    Geoff discussed this exact paper here.
    He explains that Bhikkhu Bodhi is mischaracterizing and misunderstanding Mahayana views
    He ties it into Ven. Nyanananda as well, and shows connections to the suttas
    I recommend reading & sharing this”
    Also, Pali canon and Theravada does not have a monopoly on lessening and extinguishing clinging and defilements. That is taught in Mahayana and Vajrayana too.
    Lastly, in Pali canon, you cannot be liberated without realizing the emptiness of self. This is basic Buddhism.
    Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Look at the world and see its emptiness Mogharāja, always mindful, eliminating the view of self, one goes beyond death.
    One who views the world this way is not seen by the king of death.
    — Sutta Nipāta 5.15, Mogharājamāṇavapucchā


    Nixon Na
    Soh Wei Yu Don’t confuse “non-duality” with “emptiness” and “the view of self”.

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  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Nixon Na you should read the article he responded. It addressed the non-duality issue. Non-dual is not non-duality. Non dual is used by Buddhism. It's epistemic. Non duality as you used it above is ontological, that's not the Buddhist view.
    Still reading it, super duper long! And good, for the detailed clarifications.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Yes the ontic nondualism of vedanta (one without a second of atman-brahman) is rejected through Buddha’s epistemic non-duality which rejects the extremes of existence and non-existence, being and non-being


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    I have a different experience. Non-duality (as in no subject-object) is the 'base' experience that matured into no-self. The initial non-dual is rather 'solid'.. as it matures no-self is realised. To me, no-self is the matured experience/expression of proper non-duality.
    However, non-duality is also often misconstrued as no right or wrong..


    Yin Ling
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong it was similar for me.
    Emptiness was another separate insight after no-self. Completely different experience.


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Yin Ling Yup.. emptiness is also a distinctively different experience to me too. Hard to describe 😁


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong yea truly 言语道断


  • Nixon Na
    Sim Pern Chong Yin Ling That’s right, every step and every insight in the right direction of weakening clinging.
    The idea is that upon close investigation, there is nothing worth to be taken as a self and not worth clinging onto. Not even this pleasant peaceful mind. But that said, life is dukkha, we still need the support of blissful states until we have reached the final step.


  • William Lim
    So if i understand correctly, you can't have Anatta insight without non-dual experience, but you can have non-dual experience without realising Anatta yah?
    So, is non-dual realization a prerequisite to Anatta realization?


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Nixon Na 'i am' at this experience as if i have never ever existed (as a separate thing).. it is not as if there was a person that realised 'no self' and there is no self there after. It is as if 'nothing has ever existed as a fixed 'thing'. .. nothing ever existed in the way that they appears... not accurate.. but something like that.
    But, the processes still rolls on.

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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Actually I am not sure. For me i went through non dual then anatta. It is different for me because my senses didn’t all turn non dual at once. It was one by one.
    But with one non-dual sense as reference I know how another sense gate is still dual. I could understand the insight, I just haven’t have the realisation
    When all is non dual it still feels contrived until
    I relax and let all things be always so and stop merging awareness and phenomena
    Then I could understand nature of phenomena - empty and vivid.
    To me each step in ATR is important and I can’t imagine how to skip


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Yes. You can have nondual experience without the anatta insight. You can also fall into substantialist nondual phase where nondual is realised (not just an experience) but not yet overcome inherent view of self-nature. Whether you go through those phases before anatta is highly subjective and depends on the thoroughness of your insight. Some people like Bahiya just attained liberation all at once. Most people go through a process of deepening insight and practice.

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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Yeah agree with sim pern chong
    It becomes at one point “self” is not relevant anymore.
    It’s not like you can choose to cling or not cling to self. Or think whether it is worth it or not.
    It’s just is no self .
    It is a different space.
    You can’t even see self in others at one point.
    The projection gradually diminishes naturally
    Non dual is also very blissful 🙂


  • Nixon Na
    William Lim Anatta as in the original teachings of the Buddha, is a realisation after one has thoroughly investigated the 5 aggregates and finds them to be inconsistent and dissatisfactory. So even our own 5 aggregates are anicca and dukkha, these are truly not fit to be called our self/soul/essence and not worth to be clung onto. This is applicable to everything in life.
    There is no need to bring the concept of non-duality. What we need instead is morality (sila), so that we can have guilt-free deep stillness (samadhi). In there, the 5 hindrances are suppressed temporarily - this enables us to sharpen our lens and see things as they truly are. That is where you will properly see anatta.

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  • Nixon Na
    Yin Ling Very nice, though much work remains to be done.
    Throughout the course of the day, note how many times we have irritation, boredom, food cravings, no matter how mild. These are indicators of how much subtle clinging to sensual pleasures (kama-tanha) are still latent in us. How about feelings of our loved ones dying, or our own mortality? This is the craving to want to exist (bhava-tanha).
    To be truly awakened, these latent tendencies must cease.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Nixon Na I will look into that, thank you 🙂


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Nixon Na how do you weaken clinging by noting?


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Nixon Na I am also quite interested to know how your realisation helps resolve feelings of grief of our loved ones dying as I have just said my last goodbye to my grandma a few days ago. If you have anything to share?


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling I am not sure if my sharing would be helpful. Maybe I am too cold.
    My grandparents on father side died recently. I didn't felt much sadness if at all.
    1. They lived to be very old, 80+, so no sadness from cutting short of life.
    2. I stayed in Singapore for 8 years, so during the time I am away from friends, family etc, I sort of regard them as maybe I wouldn't see them again and functionally, since I am not being with them all the time, and not financially dependent on them, their death is like this current absence and not communicating. My early exposure to Buddhism too had made me be wary of forming attachments to anyone. Not that I cannot form close friends when the conditions arises, but I wouldn't allow attachments to form. Well, at least for friendship.
    3. What is the difference of friends/family being alive and dead? Alive means they can talk back to you. What's that in terms of experiences? Do they talk to us all the time? No most of the time, we are not in communication with anyone. (except for the inner dialogue). So what does death mean? No more ability for people to respond to me. Functionally, whenever people are not talking to me, not appearing in front of me, they are as if dead. Death is just that no more future possibility of that happening ever again and it happens to everyone. Even me. Well, except in dreams. Sometimes, I still forgot that my grandparents died in my dreams, so I didn't find it sad or strange to interact with them in dreams. Or did I felt sad upon waking up and remembering.
    Basically, with attachments comes sadness, without attachments comes no sadness.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Haha yeah my personality does not parallel w yours as I’m extremely empathetic and warm
    I feel everything fully Lol
    I feel into arts musics poetry nature etc etc and I love it lol
    So I don’t know. I thjnk emptiness insight need to arise more powerfully
    And thanks for your input! Appreciate!


  • Nixon Na
    Sim Pern Chong Noting is a form of Samma-sati (Right mindfulness). In short, Sati has 2 parts - (1) Being aware of the current state of mind; (2) Remembering the Buddha’s instructions on what to do next.
    We first need to sharpen the ability to note, to be aware. But merely noting is insufficient, sati has to be supported by Right Effort (Samma-vayama). This means the 4 right effort: (1) Remove unwholesomeness in the mind, (2) Bring up wholesomeness, (3) Prevent unwholesomeness from arising, (4) Multiply wholesomeness.
    When you consistently keep the mind in a good state, when meditation comes, the mind easily slips into samadhi. There is where the deep seeing happens.
    For our minds to truly switch, we need the complete 8 fold path supported at the foundation by Right View, then
    Right Aim/Intention
    Right Speech
    Right Action
    Right Livelihood
    Right Effort
    Right Mindfulness
    Right Stillness
    From Right Stillness you will get Right Knowledge and Right Liberation.
    My apologies for the long post. If you would like a more detailed explanation, I’ll have to refer you to Sylvia Bay’s Dhamma course at Buddhist Fellowship

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  • Nixon Na
    Yin Ling In times of grief and crisis, anything blissful is a blessing. I have the support of good teachers and wise kalyanamitta (good dhamma friends). Also, knowing that the deceased has had a good happy wholesome life made it easier.
    To surf the waves of dukkha, we need to equip ourselves with many tools - be it resting in “non-self”, metta, compassion, anapanasati (breath meditation), non-contact etc. Whatever is wholesome. But we need to be aware these are merely tools, a means to an end. We must be clear of the end goal - the remainderless cessation of this craving energy (tanha), so that there will not be a next becoming (rebirth). This is the goal of the arahant.


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Nixon Na Thanks for the reply.
    My experience differs... but none of us are claiming to be truly and fully awakened 😁
    For me, the noting cannot weaken clinging substantially. What weakens clinging is insight into the nature of reality and the recognition of suffering. In fact, the more suffering ones experiences after no-self insight, the deeper the dispassion.
    Noting or mindfulness was especially useful for allowing the glimpse into no-self.
    However, after the initial no-self insight and especially after sometimes, the noting change flavour. This is because the no-self insight is actually a recognition of a large chunk of clinging.. arising from wanting.. leading to the false impression of a subject-object split. This is why, to me, non-duality (aka no subject-object) is a maturation of no-self. because the dichotomy of a self and appearance outside it arises from the 'forward' clinging' into an outside 'environment'... where there is only 'processes'.
    After the no-self, there can also be an experience of auto-release from clinging. There is no self or noting required for the release of clinging. during those period.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Well said.
    Also noting as in labeling wasn’t taught by Buddha
    I would consider it a form of skillful means by contemporary masters. Same as counting breath.
    That is different from direct mode of satipatthana. So as many teachers of noting method say, at later stage you must drop noting


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu yeah I noted for 18 months for 5-6 hours a day 😂😂😂until my mind cannot stop noting until now still have that residual ability 😂😂😂
    My teacher asked me to stop doing it but the mind can’t stop. Only when it gradually slows that I can access direct mode


  • Nixon Na
    Yin Ling Were you noting thoughts or noting the state of mind? Noting thoughts is a dangerous game, as thoughts are too rapid. Drives one crazy.
    In Anapanasati sutta and Satipatthana sutta, the “noting” is clearly knowing the state of mind, not thoughts.


  • Nixon Na
    Sim Pern Chong Sounds good. Just don’t be blindsided by the deep hidden tendencies. These can only be uprooted by consistently guarding the senses and the mind, deep samadhi and by walking the complete 8-fold path.
    As for concepts like non-duality, or triple-duality or whatnot, use them as tools. Don’t be fooled into attainments of awakening. Keep grounded and humbly walk the path.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Nixon Na note every sensation that arise. Including thoughts including mind states or even anything I can’t say I just give it a random name
    At the very end I don’t even need to note. The universe note itself. It can sense 20-30 sensations at half a second or one mind moment and thoughts just melted whenever it’s known. So I have a period I don’t have much thoughts but it isn’t a problem anyway.
    In the end I need to stop noting, which brought me to ix awareness,
    Which gave me non dual realisation
    Subsequently anatta realization
    So I’m ok now, without disturbance from any thoughts. Any thoughts can arise and is known clearly without a self clinging
    The no self realisation chop off the root to cling


  • Nixon Na
    Yin Ling Small suggestion: add in the 4 right efforts. Not just watching and letting things arise and fall. Keep good states of mind and grow them. Remove bad states and prevent them from arising. Then sit and meditate and see the difference. Just my 2 cents.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong I love how you say the more suffering after no self the more dispassion.
    I find that after a period of “mind grasping” things always become so much clearer and equanimity so much more prominent. Like a purification.
    I don’t quite like to suffer but it’s kinda good for my mind 😂


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Nixon Na what is 4 right efforts? Thanks! Will do.


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Nixon Na From what I learned, the 4 right efforts are goal language, it's concerned with the results.
    How to attain to abandon bad, do good is by method language, which in terms of the vipassana noting method, can be seen as a combination of the method from MN20: https://suttacentral.net/mn20/en/sujato?layout=plain...
    Of the ignore, due to thoughts arising so fast, no time to ruminate on them. If there's samatha practice, then it's more of the 4th way, calming the thoughts down to zero.
    To try to do the goal language (confusing goal as method), one just uses ego, craving, makes things worse.
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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Ng Xin Zhao oh i see.
    I don’t use this method.
    I don’t manipulate anything when I meditate nowadays
    Coz I don’t experience a self I can’t do this. I need to re-exert a self to do the 4 efforts
    I just look at its true nature - non self and empty. Not I look, ir just happen naturally
    So the clinging is drop effortlessly, pretty cool.


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling exactly, you're using method language. It's feels like no effort (naturally). Basically being (knowing/looking), not doing.
    Result wise is described by goal language, which is confused by common beginners, especially ones with big ego to use strong effort.
    I am using goal language to write this (to describe method language), to use method language to describe method language, it's more like the way zen master talks. And like how you talk.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    yes it needs to be tailored to where a practitioner is imo.
    I was using effort at the start. Then I was told to drop noting when my mind is clear and not tied by thoughts . Effort is needed at the start. The seeker needs to be exhausted
    It was after almost 2000 hours of efforting . But that 2000 hours has given my mind a lot of clarity now that I didn’t have before. I wouldn’t have this mind now if I haven’t put in effort
    To ask me to put in effort after no self is a regression imo becusse inunderstood what is effort hence I could understand what is no effort.
    Without a no self realisation non-effort cannot be understood
    To do nothing when one hasn’t did anything is to do nothing in delusion. Dangerous advice


  • Nixon Na
    Ng Xin Zhao Good sutta, in there Buddha gave precise instructions to abandon unwholesomeness.
    When all else fails, he: “…with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him…and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated.”
    Sometimes, strong effort is needed. But if it can be done with no effort, even better.
    Like mentioned, equip oneself with tools and you’ll have many methods to work with.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    "As for concepts like non-duality, or triple-duality or whatnot, use them as tools. Don’t be fooled into attainments of awakening."
    We have to be clear what the non-duality here means.
    There are three main types listed by Acarya Malcolm but can be more than that, David Loy lists 5 or more for example.
    Malcolm's 3 in summary (my own words and paraphrase, not his):
    1) ontic non-duality -- the Vedantic 'one without a second' variety of non-duality. Everything is just one substance -- Atman-Brahman, you are that one, all phenomena are that one, just like a necklace may appear in various shapes but is just made of one 'thing' -- gold.
    2) absence or emptiness of subject-object (such as: perceiver-perceived, agent-action, doer-deed, etc)
    3) emptiness of the ontic pairs such as existence and non-existence through insight of emptiness
    It is obvious that when we realise the Buddhist insights, 1) becomes irrelevant or is seen through as flawed. It is no longer based on a view of essence, substance, or ontological substratum.
    The Buddha however did teach, even in Pali suttas, 2 and 3. When you have a Buddhist awakening, the so called 'non-duality' of 2 and 3 becomes implicit and natural even without needing to call it by that name or give special emphasis to them as a concept. It is just non-conceptually actualized. That is why you do not need to give special emphasis on these as concepts, for example you can teach four noble truths and anattalakkhana sutta and then automatically the first five students have attained arahantship even without hearing about non-duality. In other suttas, the Buddha however did explicitly describe the equipoise of an arya as the suchness of heard/sensed/cognized without a cognizer and something cognized (such as Kalaka Sutta) i.e. subject and object, and many other suttas also describe how the overcoming of self view in various forms includes overcoming the view and sense of being an experiencer, agent, and watcher (Sabbasava Sutta among others).
    Anyone who experiences a state, a peak experience, where the cognizer and cognised 'fuses into one' or a state of forgetting self is just describing a peak experience. That is not awakening. Even if there is some form of non-dual realization, it can end up being like Brahman. That is also not Buddhist awakening.
    But if you realise anatta, dependent origination, emptiness ala the Buddhist insights, and you enter the stream, whether it be called 'stream entry' or 'first bhumi' (which Malcolm calls 'Mahayana stream entry'), automatically no subject and object is a natural and effortless state. It is not a peak experience. All the time it will be experienced like that (without reified subject and object) even without the slightest effort. It is just that the insight allows the seeing through of reification and this allows all experience to be seen in its true face - without a self/agent/perceiver/doer-deed dichotomy, and operating via conditionality, without self-nature or essence. It is like seeing a picture puzzle until one day something clicks and the perspective shifts forever, never to be unseen again. All these are far from a kind of conceptual game, it requires a direct insight into the nature of dhamma/dharma. The nature of mind. Then the so called no subject-object is just implicitly so, you don't even need to emphasize it... the more important point in fact is the absence of self-nature and conditionality.
    However, if someone claims to have awakened in the Buddhist sense, but then they say their subject object sense is still strong or present, I would say this person hasn't really attained true Buddhist awakening. Even if they claim to realise no self, it is not the true Buddhist no self insight, but only halfway there.
    Like Ajahn Brahmavamso said those who practice meditation and jhanas can first overcome self by seeing through and dissolving the doer. Only later, at a more mature phase, the "last citadel of self" -- the knower -- is seen through. How can you say for example that the self is truly seen through but still hold oneself to be a knower behind the known (subject and object)? So that cannot be, obviously.
    The true Buddhist insight of anatta is not only seeing through doer, but also agent, knower, perceiver, seer, hearer, be-er, being, etc etc. Total deconstruction of all self/Self. Then that I consider true insight.. and Yin Ling and Sim Pern Chong fortunately has that deep penetrative insight.


  • William Lim
    Soh Wei Yu nice definition of terms 👍🏼


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu Yup.. nice . thx... Nixon Na non-duality is not a concept.. not an idea.. It is an insight.. at a certain stage.. then it gets further refined, etc.
    An idea is something that one conceptualises. An insight is a kind of direct knowledge.. once it is realised, it refutes the assumption before it.


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling Ah yes, it's the danger of mixing up goal vs method language.
    Whatever application is done, which doesn't lead to Nibbana, then one can know that there's a mix up.
    Initially, goal language, which is what the language of the Pali suttas is in mostly, (I think), is useful for beginners, for those pre-stream winning.
    Then after some time, the habit builds up, the method language is gradually realized to be more efficient. There might be some confusing the method as goal, leading to non-practise. But it's good to note then, and use method as method, not as goal. Goal is to have bad abandoned, the results. Method is letting be. Result is letting go.
    Like a lot of Ajahn Brahm's advice of do nothing in meditation, let Jhana happen. One cannot attain to Jhana (using the ego), Jhana happens when the self is dropped.
    So here goal language is to attain to Jhana, method language is letting be. To misuse method language of do nothing in meditation as goal, leads to not meditating. To misuse goal language of enter Jhana as method leads to using ego to enter into Jhana.
    "Without a no self realisation non-effort cannot be understood"
    It can, to a smaller extent. That's why I am developing this goal vs method language to make it clear where the pitfalls are, how to use each language correctly.
    "Effort is needed at the start. The seeker needs to be exhausted"
    Same as Ajahn Brahm said. Give up the hope that one can enter into Jhana, that's the way to enter into Jhana.


  • Soh Wei Yu
    Admin
    Once true insight into anatta, conditionality, absence of self-nature / emptiness arise... not only subject and object, but the 6 wrong views of self in Sabbasava Sutta, and the 62 kinds of wrong views in The Brahmajāla Sutta (DN 1), etc etc are automatically demolished in an instant of direct insight, never to arise again. Not one by one refute them... that is more like conceptual explanation as a skillful means of teaching.
    No more eternalism and nihilism, no subject and object, etc. As Malcolm puts it "The point is that there is no point to eternalism if there is no eternal agent or object."


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    I’m not really talking about jhana though jhana is still a fabrication not realisation. Not the goal. I understnd you want to say jhana is the goals but I’m afraid ppl think this is all jhana:
    There is effort to go into jhana. There are set ups and where to focus on and where to breath etc etc then one enter and then one exit
    The realisation of no self is literally a differnt space altogether
    You are living in it all moment you cannot get out it is a gateless gate
    One also don’t know how to get out. It is irreversible. It’s like you grow into sthg else and can never go back again being a person. Impossible.
    You will know when you are there. No doubt
    The doubter is gone lol
    That is the aim.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu yes it is literally chopping off the root to all clinging
    While what Nixon Na is talking about is chopping branches
    Chopping branches can regrow
    Root will not.
    That is no self realisation


  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Author
    Yin Ling Sorry, not to say that the goal only got one goal. It's just the name of the language system used.
    There are other names for goal vs method, the first one corresponds to goal, the second is to method. Horizontal vs vertical thinking, Doing vs being, conventional vs ultimate reality, etc.
    Yes, based on Soh Wei Yu's explaination, I think the method language is different for people at different stages, when their goal (next result) is different.
    After no self, it seems that method is not so much being anymore.


  • Nixon Na
    Yin Ling The 4 right efforts in the sutta are a prevention & maintenance strategy by the Buddha for keeping the mind clean. The sutta Ng Xin Zhao posted (MN 20) are actual techniques on how to perform the cleansing.
    One must not belittle these instructions, it is not just chopping branches, this is the method itself to ending negative states of mind. This is preparatory exercise before seated meditation.
    I’m positive your experience of “non-duality” resting in bliss works. In time to come, as you progress you may find certain negativities do not always respond to your method. Despite resting in awareness, disturbing thoughts still arise. Then, you may find the Buddha’s method useful as an alternative tool.
    For if one is truly awakened via the no self realisation, why is there still dukkha, doubts and clinging remaining?


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    No self realisation is stream entry.
    There is still 7 fetters left to slowly be eradicated, hence dukkha clinging still remain
    But doubt won’t. Doubt will be eradicated at stream .
    But no self realisation is a prerequisite to eradication of the other 7 fetters
    Without this realisation it is impossible to eradicate greed hatred and delusion thoroughly
    Karma still runs
    Hence it is call ENTERING THE STREAM
    One float slowly to the sea in maximum 7 lifetimes bec
    the realisation will carry that being towards full enlightenment bec their view is correct and the tendency to create more afficlfion is greatly subdued
    They view the world differently, coz they don’t have self other view, they won’t easily go against the precepts that easily , emotional afflictions drop. Karma is purified
    It is worthwhile to read myriad object post on stream entry in the above link soh posted
    The effort to reduce unwholesome thoughts are important too,
    However this is a provisional teaching for those who are not incline to realise stream entry. It is from a self view.
    The Buddha taught many ppl. So teachings are very personalised. It is not a one size fit all


  • William Lim
    "No self realization is a PREREQUISITE to the eradication of the other 7 fetters"
    👍🏼


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  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Nixon Na yup the sutra just talked about what I just said
    “Suppose there was a large tree standing with heartwood. It is possible to cut out the heartwood after having cut through the bark and the softwood. In the same way, there is a path and a practice for giving up the five lower fetters. It is possible to know and see and give up the five lower fetters by relying on that path and that practice. Suppose the river Ganges was full to the brim so a crow could drink from it. Then along comes a feeble person, who thinks: ‘By swimming with my arms I’ll safely cross over to the far shore of the Ganges.’ But they’re not able to do so. In the same way, when the Dhamma is being taught for the cessation of identity view, someone whose mind isn’t eager, confident, settled, and decided should be regarded as being like that feeble person. Suppose the river Ganges was full to the brim so a crow could drink from it. Then along comes a strong person, who thinks: ‘By swimming with my arms I’ll safely cross over to the far shore of the Ganges.’ And they are able to do so.”
    There is feeble person and strong person
    The feeble person Buddha will ask them cut branches
    The strong Buddha will ask them chop off identity view
    Hence we need to see who is feeble and who is strong before we dispense teaching 😂


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    “Sir, if this is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters, how come some mendicants here are released in heart while others are released by wisdom?”
    “In that case, I say it is the diversity of their faculties.”
    That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, Venerable Ānanda was happy with what the Buddha said
    Here Buddha explained
    Release in heart
    Released by wisdom
    First is branch
    Second is root
    Second is no self realisation 🙂
    Ok I have made myself clear, gonna get off this thread, nice chat! Practise well!


  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    Nixon Na The No-self realisation is Stream Entry. Before that, there is no guarantee of full enlightenment. In the Teaching, it is said that a Stream Enterer will have a maximum of 7 lives before full enlightenment. It is not some kind of thing that the 'self' is going to put self-ing effort in. It is irreversible 🤣
    There is radical change in perception and understanding after stream entry. From that point onwards, the person also intuitively knows how the fetters will be removed. It is not by using a 'self'.. it will seems as counter productive from that point onwards.
    I hope you can understand that perhaps there are insights that you are not aware of (yet). Not saying it out of pride or anything, pls do not mis-interpret. Just sharing for possibilities.
    Thanks.


  • William Lim
    Sim Pern Chong I'm glad you brought up the "radical change in perception".
    Not many people understand that realization is an experiential thing and that there is "radical change in perception".
    And it is this change in perception that brings about insights.
    I think more realized people should talk about what this change of perception is, and how realization "feels" from an experiential viewpoint.

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  • Sim Pern Chong
    Admin
    William Lim Personally, i am reluctant to talk about these stuffs partly becos it is serious matters and i don't want to be seen as knowing more that what i really know..😆. I can't keep up with an image 😆 . But, time is running short.. so i feel i should contribute abit.

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  • William Lim
    Sim Pern Chong that's the spirit dude! It's a serious matter indeed, and that's why it needs to be spoken about. I think speaking from what you know will already be very beneficial to many. Yogi power unite!


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong for what it is worth, your forum post with thusness many years back have been so helpful for maturing my own insight bec both of you are so sincere and serious about realisations and are so insightful.
    It’s been a decade plus, you will have so much to contribute from personal experience which is precious
    I really hope you come back and contribute 🙂 I’m sure Many will benefit.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong for what it is worth, your forum post with thusness many years back have been so helpful for maturing my own insight bec both of you are so sincere and serious about realisations and are so insightful.
    It’s been a decade plus, you will have so much to contribute from personal experience which is precious
    I really hope you come back and contribute 🙂 I’m sure Many will benefit.












  • Parami Xuan
    I think it is the subtle view one puts the mind to. Or the mind that believes or aspiring towards.
    If using non duality gets one to that state of deep peace and quiet mindful of see seeing with some form of samadhi to sustain, then this can be a technique to come to here.
    The view, knowledge that one inputs the mind or a belief that the mind holds or subscribes to is the one that either concludes this state or allows one to continue to navigate and investigate the mind intuitively.

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