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    Stream Entry
    Myriad Objects gonna put your well written article explaining stream entry ( https://www.reddit.com/.../insight_buddhism_a... ) to the top of AtR blog tonight
    [6:11 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: This article is written myriad object?
    [6:14 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Should put geoff and myriad objects article in main link, I think it clears a lot of misconceptions.
    Soh: Yeah.. ok
    Main link as in the stickied posts in atr blog?
    John Tan: Yes
    Soh: Ok
    [9:58 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Any links to insightful articles?
    [9:58 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: I think a section on that is good
    Soh: Ok.. later i think how to create
    John Tan: Otherwise many ppl might missed all these good articles
    [9:59 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Otherwise many ppl might missed all these good articles
    [9:59 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: And its really difficult to search through the whole blog other than u 😂😂😂
    [10:00 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Nafis is another one that probably went through the whole blog... Lol
    Soh: yeah im surprise he is becoming like me.. many of the posts he pasted was what i wanted to pasted but lazy
    lol
    awakeningtoreality.com
    [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    If anyone else has suggestions on what else to link under the new “insightful articles” section pls suggest here and i will consider


    Ng Xin Zhao
    Soh Wei Yu Maybe unrelated, you mentioned somewhere that John/ Thusness had the awakening experience in a previous life. Can one person attain to stream winning twice? Or had I misunderstood/ misremembered your statement?

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    Soh Wei Yu
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    Ng Xin Zhao his view as i understand it is yes
    Also the mahayana people understands that way
    But anything after death will be a controversial topic
    Like the topic of bardo and antarabhava
    Theravadins usually dont believe
    But some like ajahn brahmavamso seems to believe in antarabhava based on his experience
    Also in suttas there is the verse “when consciousness descends into the womb” which is a reference to it
    Likewise views of what happens after life would differ
    The mahayana teachings are more elaborate, saying that unless you are at 8th bhumi or above, at some point in the bardo or during birth and gestation you will forget your past life and will have to regain the realisation
    But one generally is still on an irreversible conveyer belt to total liberation and full awakening

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  • Ng Xin Zhao
    Soh Wei Yu Huh... if you're right, it means basically anyone could have been a stream winner....
    Well, there's at least a few things which should carry forward: https://suttacentral.net/an1.268-277/en/sujato...
    Some things becomes impossible to do.
    “It is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen for a person accomplished in view to acknowledge another teacher. But it is possible for an ordinary person to acknowledge another teacher.”
    Basically, will become Buddhist, not another religon.
    SUTTACENTRAL.NET
    suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
    suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Ng Xin Zhao i would say that applies after you regain the realisation
    It is impossible for me to believe in brahman or follow a teacher that teaches a substantialist atman brahman now
    Cos there is no doubt here, there is no essence view, no self/Self
    It is not by magical power that I avoid other teachers
    I can still learn yoga and asanas from non buddhist and learn whatever is helpful pragmatically
    But there is no way some other teachers can convince me at this point “no no, anatta and dependent origination is wrong. Brahman is the more ultimate view” i will just smile and think to myself “bro you are wasting your time”


  • Nafis Rahman
    These are a few articles that might be worth including:
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-not-self-or... (for refuting Thanissaro’s views on anatta)
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../substantial-and... (clear and comprehensive description on the difference between substantialist and non-substantialist non-duality)
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../suggestions-for... (different members who realized anatta)
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-post... (William Kong’s anatta realization + John Tan’s comments)
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-transient... (for understanding luminosity/presence, might be helpful for those who skipped I AM or followed MCTB)
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/2580991161942298/ (if you agree I think this post on presence by Hale along with the comments by John Tan should be made into a new blog post)
    http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-magical... (for motivating spiritual practitioners and to show what’s possible in terms of experiencing/actualizing post-anatta insights)
    For Stage 6:
    Total Exertion:
    Non-Arising:
    The latter I just copied from the sample atr practice guide.
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
    Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    wow.. that's a lot 😂


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Thanks







  • William Lim
    Would tagging the articles in the site based on the stages be useful?


    Soh Wei Yu
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    William Lim Already have tags like "I AMness", "Non Dual", "Anatta", "Emptiness" etc


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Usually that corresponds to Stages 1-2, 4, 5, 6 respectively. But sometimes an article talks about many aspects. Keep in mind also that these stages are not strictly linear - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../are-insight...
    Are the insight stages strictly linear?
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Are the insight stages strictly linear?
    Are the insight stages strictly linear?

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  • Yin Ling
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    This article is superb.
    I followed the mctb path but in all honesty I never think fruition did much for me. It doesn’t change my experience or perception. It was nice to have, and it occurs involuntarily for me, now and then.
    It wasn’t until anatta insight that I understand the fetter system is speaking about THIS- the stage 5 ATr is talking about, not the mctb first path.
    Bec only with this insight , the afflictions can drop. It is very logical. Lol.
    Stream entry in the canon is a very rare attainment
    Even First mctb path is very hard to achieve let alone steam entry.
    One need to work very very hard .


    William Lim
    Yin Ling & Soh Wei Yu, for clarity of path, and better understanding of insights... how does mctb maps map to atr maps? And to the aharant and bodhisattva paths? I'm sure someone must have written something about this.


    Yin Ling
    Admin
    William Lim mctb 4th path = atr stage 5
    No self realisation
    Aka
    Canon stream entry
    Before that it is a completely different path
    Mctb is a gradual vipassana path
    ATR aims to bring one to direct realisation like zen and Mahamudra.
    That’s my understanding lah.
    Arahant is beyond atr. Coz it’s completely eradication of afflictions but ATr insights are prerequisites to eradicate these afflictions. Boddhisatvas path I’m not familiar I won’t comment. 😬


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    8th bhumi is similar to arahant in terms of overcoming mental afflictions like the three poisons
    There are other fine differences but that is the area of overlap


  • Owen Richards
    Yin Ling why does one need to work very, very hard to get to reality? Isn't reality everpresent?


    Yin Ling
    Admin
    Because of delusion/ignorance
    It’s usually a lot of effort
    Search until you cannot search then only the mind will suddenly understand
    The mind is not a conscious thing like your rational thinking now
    When it understands the whole perception change suddenly
    The energy turn inside out , it’s palpable
    The core becomes empty
    The realisation causes a massive rewiring
    The whole body wakes up
    The whole nervous system gets rewired
    One can literally feel it.
    And then there’s huge energetic release
    It’s like you go to the gym for 5 years and then you look different.
    If one don’t do any work, all these doesn’t happen. I haven’t meet anyone who hasn’t practise sincerely and work quite hard before Anatta insight
    Maybe others have meet some
    It is why also why Dogen went to China. He has asked the same Q as you 🙂

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  • Owen Richards
    Yin Ling could you explain that last paragraph please?


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    From wiki
    4]
    Early training Edit
    At some later point, Dōgen became a low-ranking monk on Mount Hiei, the headquarters of the Tendai school of Buddhism. According to the Kenzeiki (建撕記), he became possessed by a single question with regard to the Tendai doctrine:
    As I study both the exoteric and the esoteric schools of Buddhism, they maintain that human beings are endowed with Dharma-nature by birth. If this is the case, why did the Buddhas of all ages — undoubtedly in possession of enlightenment — find it necessary to seek enlightenment and engage in spiritual practice?[5][6]
    This question was, in large part, prompted by the Tendai concept of original enlightenment (本覚 hongaku), which states that all human beings are enlightened by nature and that, consequently, any notion of achieving enlightenment through practice is fundamentally flawed.[7]
    The Kenzeiki further states that he found no answer to his question at Mount Hiei, and that he was disillusioned by the internal politics and need for social prominence for advancement.[3] Therefore, Dōgen left to seek an answer from other Buddhist masters. He went to visit Kōin, the Tendai abbot of Onjō-ji Temple (園城寺), asking him this same question. Kōin said that, in order to find an answer, he might want to consider studying Chán in China.[8] In 1217, two years after the death of contemporary Zen Buddhist Myōan Eisai, Dōgen went to study at Kennin-ji Temple (建仁寺), under Eisai's successor, Myōzen (明全).[3]
    Travel to China Edit
    In 1223, Dōgen and Myōzen undertook the dangerous passage across the East China Sea to China to study in Jing-de-si (Ching-te-ssu, 景德寺) monastery as Eisai had once done.[citation needed]
    In China, Dōgen first went to the leading Chan monasteries in Zhèjiāng province. At the time, most Chan teachers based their training around the use of gōng-àns (Japanese: kōan). Though Dōgen assiduously studied the kōans, he became disenchanted with the heavy emphasis laid upon them, and wondered why the sutras were not studied more. At one point, owing to this disenchantment, Dōgen even refused Dharma transmission from a teacher.[9] Then, in 1225, he decided to visit a master named Rújìng (如淨; J. Nyōjo), the thirteenth patriarch of the Cáodòng (J. Sōtō) lineage of Zen Buddhism, at Mount Tiāntóng (天童山 Tiāntóngshān; J. Tendōzan) in Níngbō. Rujing was reputed to have a style of Chan that was different from the other masters whom Dōgen had thus far encountered. In later writings, Dōgen referred to Rujing as "the Old Buddha". Additionally he affectionately described both Rujing and Myōzen as senshi (先師, "Ancient Teacher").[3]
    Under Rujing, Dōgen realized liberation of body and mind upon hearing the master say, "Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò).


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Owen Richards Original Enlightenment vs Practice-Enlightenment
    John Tan
    When Dogen was still a monk in Tendai School, he was puzzled and couldn't understand the teaching of "original enlightenment". If we were originally enlightened, how can we be lost? Unsatisfied he traveled to China in search for answers and when he returned back to Japan, he began promoting "practice-enlighthment". What did Dogen realize from this koan of "original enlightenment" into "practice-enlightenment"?
    Those that went for the ATR gathering don't answer ah🤣.
    2
    Original Enlightenment vs Practice-Enlightenment
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Original Enlightenment vs Practice-Enlightenment
    Original Enlightenment vs Practice-Enlightenment

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  • Cheng Chen
    Yin Ling similar thoughts here. As much as we might complain about MCTB & Co., it did and continues to inspire many folks to go forth earnestly, including myself.


    Yin Ling
    Admin
    Cheng Chen it did the same for me hence the respect for Ingram. I still respect him a lot no matter what he calls himself .. he is a good practitioner with strong knowledge , he has penetrative insight much more than what I have and a passion for helping ppl.
    I have alot to learn from him.
    It is only the system that can create confusion bec ppl who attain stream entry in his system will wonder - why do I still see from a self view but the sutta says when stream entry is realised self view is gone. What is this?
    That was what I went through. So confused
    It wasn’t until anatta insight I have the confidence that self view is gone and willl never come back
    Then I know the mctb system is faulty lol

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Cheng Chen I remember reading MCTB 1 back in 2006. Was very impressed and so was John Tan. Highly recommended and I'm sure MCTB 2 is even much better with added feedback and improvements over a decade.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Session Start: Sunday, December 03, 2006
    (9:39 PM) John: I have read more detail about Dharma Dan's PDF, he is truly enlightened. 🙂
    (9:39 PM) AEN: oic.. how come
    (9:39 PM) John: i know lor...u can take that pdf seriously.
    (9:40 PM) AEN: icic...
    (9:40 PM) AEN: ok
    (10:35 PM) John: hopefully he cleared his fetters..🙂
    (10:35 PM) John: his understanding is thorough. 🙂
    (10:35 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:39 PM) John: my transparency is his precision about noticing the vibration of sensation. This is a very important practice. 🙂
    (10:39 PM) John: But focus on the clarity i told u.
    (10:40 PM) John: reality that instant of luminosity and it is gone.
    (10:40 PM) John: if u thoroughly understand that, u understand ur nature.
    (10:40 PM) John: if u can understand what he said in terms of intuitive experience, the next steps is to stabilize it till the experience of total transparency.
    (10:41 PM) John: u should take this self-claimed arahat seriously.
    (10:41 PM) John: lol
    (10:41 PM) John: got 'liao4' (substance). 🙂


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    John Tan was so impressed he actually wanted to meet Daniel back then. 🤣
    Session Start: Friday, December 08, 2006
    (10:09 PM) John: going australia tmr...eheheh
    (10:09 PM) AEN: oo ok.. have a gd trip
    (10:09 PM) John: thought can relax...but my wife told me is with a tour group...gonna be another tiring week.
    (10:09 PM) John: lool
    (10:14 PM) John: where is dharma dan located?
    (10:14 PM) AEN: USA
    (10:14 PM) John: is he an australian?
    (10:14 PM) AEN: hahaha u wan to find him?
    (10:14 PM) AEN: LOL
    (10:15 PM) John: not autralia?
    (10:15 PM) John: hahaha yeah...thought of if i am there...
    (10:15 PM) AEN: oo cool
    (10:15 PM) AEN: he lives in alabama
    (10:15 PM) AEN: which is a state in USA
    (10:15 PM) John: but too bad...i thought it was australia. 🙂







  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Nicely said.
    I would add that though stream entry is a not common attainment in general, still, the suttas recorded thousands of attainers (in Buddha’s times) and in this group there are quite many 🙂 just so that people don’t think its an impossible feat
    Yesterday I was reading through mindfulness, bliss and beyond by ajahn brahm after writing about the last citadel of self which i remembered reading from years ago.
    Im convinced ajahn brahm has attained similar realisation of anatta (which unfortunately is not common at all even among well known theravadin teachers) and he too has a similar definition of stream entry. I would say, better definition than mctb whose 4th path is actually more like sutta stream entry


    William Lim
    Soh Wei Yu Yes, and it is this value that ATR provides. That attainment of varying degrees is possible in this lifetime. Which is why the closeted yogis need to step forward 🙂


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu yea this group is surprisingly many, probably birds of same feather
    Which tend to create a false impression like its too common and “let’s go for arahantship, stream entry is only entry level” lol
    It is achievable if one prioritise it in their life
    But without effort it is very hard to see.


  • Tan Jui Horng
    Admin
    Soh Wei Yu Actually it seems that we may actually have quite a number of sakadagamis, given that it's not just the first 3 fetters having fallen, but for some, sensual desire and ill-will have also been attenuated.


    Soh Wei Yu
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    Tan Jui Horng idk its very vague how much is considered attenuated so i generally don’t speculate
    Yesterday was reading ajahn brahm book, he also mentioned about this vagueness of sakadagami and concluded that only a buddha in his omniscience can determine whether someone is sakadagami


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Anagami and arahant on the other hand has more clear cut markers


  • Tan Jui Horng
    Admin
    True, I always felt the historical Buddha was really compassionate at categorizing attainments. Sotapanna level is just first 3 fetters and (at least officially) insight progressing into actual behaviour change at the reactionary level being the huge gulf between sotapanna and anagami, the latter which is indeed extremely rare to the point of people doubting the possibility.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Tan Jui Horng maybe they are around but we just don’t know. Maybe ajahn brahm is an arahant, who knows? But due to vinaya they cannot reveal.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Anagami is characterized by buddha in terms mastery of samadhi that is lacking in sotapanna and sakadagami.
    Theoretically speaking, it will not be difficult for ajahn brahm to reach anagami and arahant with his samadhi mastery combined with the correct insights.

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  • Yin Ling
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    Soh Wei Yu some ppl say only anagami can access nirodha samapati and ajahn brahm has describe it
    But of course I’m totally just speculating







  • Daniel Lester
    Soh Wei Yu yes i think there was a very informative ingram interview on guruviking back in 2019. He went through a very informative quickfire towards the end of the talk about all stages, its very fast and caffeinated but has value on this topic. He mentions that there are so many meditators who really believe they attained stream entry when upon further investigation it was simply just arising and passing stages which can be easy to confuse. He then goes on to explain the next 3 stages and how to attain them and how they can also be confused.

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    Soh Wei Yu
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    Daniel Lester Yes, but his MCTB 1 to 3 are not what we here considers sutta stream entry which is more akin to MCTB 4th path.


  • Cheng Chen
    In recent years, I’ve come to see MCTB 4th as the initial breakthrough for stream entry - the experiential setup. But there’s still a dawning of the realization itself, an integration if you will, that results in more of the Anatta discussed here.
    Breakthrough != realization and MCTB/pragmatic are hyper focused to breakthroughs with very little support for realization.







  • Soh Wei Yu
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    This is one of the articles i shared with you also


  • William Albert
    Going to go out on a limb and really disagree with Soh here. The fetters model is so dogmatic. This just feels so wrong to me. Who cares what the Buddha said? I mean this respectfully, but he was just a dude. This is about what is most deeply True, not about what some guy said thousands of years ago. It can be useful if it helps you get there yourself, but I think many of you that "grew up" inside of Buddhism don't realize how much it shapes your epistemology and framing. It is an ugly model at best when you view it from the outside. Sometimes it is helpful but other times a totally secular and heart/intuition-baser approach is wildly more freeing.


    Soh Wei Yu
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    I disagree. I believe most of us here with the experiential insights can see from experience how insights correlate to the release of afflictions and fetters. I have also written a chapter about it in the AtR guide


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    William Albert i also like how Kyle expressed:
    "...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
    “The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
    Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.
    The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019
    “Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021


    J.P. Hamilton
    Soh Wei Yu "The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions" - I AM does this too. Not sure if this is due to brief no-self that comes with it or not. But it is very noticable.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    Along the path the afflictions drops slowly. With practise it keeps dropping, hence practise is always beneficial


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    I also actually like what some of Actual Freedom teachings describe but I do not necessarily agree on all their points of view


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    I do agree with heart based approach though.
    And i have to stress that overcoming kleshas has nothing to do with suppressing them.
    That would be akin to trimming the branches but liberation requires uprooting the stems in the analogy Yin Ling provided yesterday


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    William Albert i didnt grow up with buddhism.
    I didn't understand the fetter system until i have some insight.
    MCTB stream entry did not resonate with me though my teacher tell me I attain it, I know something is not right so I didnt stop at first path. I don't go around telling ppl what I attain bec it doesnt feel authentic to me. In fact, I practise harder. Maybe something in my past lives etc inform this intuition, but I know this is not IT.
    When i saw what i saw, the Buddha's words sounds completely different from when I first read it. It was total clarity. It was OMG....geez. Suddenly the whole sutta felt like I could have written it, this is not a show-off, but i trust alot of ppl will feel the same way. they are just incredibly humble. I am saying this just to show what is possible.
    One then have complete and total reverence for Sakyamuni Buddha. not forced reverence. It's faith borne of knowlegde.
    Actually I sometimes feel tired talking about this, becuase i understand what the buddha is talking about, I understand the depth, I could see, and I could understand, in a deep deep way, in a way many ppl who pooh pooh the teaching don't understand, so it exhaust me. I try to send my message across when I have the energy to, coz I don't need validation or approval, it all is like the buddha called, wisdom eye. but it cannot be proven like science.
    Sometimes I am impressed with Soh's patience , ppl like Angelo, doing this for years and not get tired. I get tired easily lol i won't make a good teacher.
    Then again, I feel its a responsibility to correct wrong views if one is given the good fortune to have insight. So i try my best.
    Its also good to not pooh pooh the teachings if one cannot see yet. give it benefit of doubt, leave it and come back again. Dunning Kruger is like that. We don't see so we think it is wrong or dogmatic. and we create our own system and we disagree with something that has worked for 2600 years. our arrogance will be our biggest downfall.


    William Albert
    Yin Ling It's fine to find truth in the sutras, but I think the massive error is to judge attainments by fetters. This is correlation vs causation, IMO, and is extremely problematic given the complex nature of humans, mind-bodies, and our many situations. Ingram makes this argument very effectively, particularly from the perspective that judging attainments this way is far more likely to lead to suppression and totally warped people than to judge it by insight and experiential reality alone. Insight is insight, the body-mind results may or may not follow. The teachers I trust all confirm that true realization needs no verification, so when people get extremely wrapped up in "this is 4th path or that is 4th path", I find that pretty indicative that there's a lot of ego and conceptuality at play rather than realization. You'll never hear Adyashanti call himself an Arhat, yet he is deeply deeply realized.
    At the very least, it's not helpful for me and mostly discouraging. This is a journey within our truest nature, and I do not care where any of you think I am. The deepest realization will discard all states and stages anyway, and defy language completely.


  • Yin Ling
    Admin
    William Albert I agree with you on -
    There’s no point labelling ppl with attainments.
    But that doesn’t mean that the fetter system does not work or is wrong.
    If one attain no self realisation, one will understand why the 1st and 2nd fetters are also let go off, and how and why the 7 fetters are something that need to be gradually let go off after that.
    One has a framework of practise. The last bit of conceit is not let go until near arahantship.
    It is for us to guide practise, not for us to categorise ppl, you are right in this
    But to say that Buddha is just a dude and “who cares about what he says” is abit much and very arrogant. Saying “ugly model” when it is in the canon is not very respectful to those who practise sincerely and manage to escape from the fetters
    Daniel Ingram claim Arahant ship yet claim he still have lust, desire and emotional afflictions. I highly respect him but that is not something I aim to follow..
    The Buddha words has its truth and if we haven’t attain, at least give benefit of doubt and respect


  • Tommy McNally
    William Albert If you don't care what the Buddha said, why are your practicing Buddhadharma?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you're coming at this from MCTB and the pragmatic dharma community?
    I didn't "'grow up' inside of Buddhism"; I came to the Buddhadharma after 15+ years of study and practice within the Western Mystery Traditions. I actually disliked Buddhism for a long, long time until it became the only model that correlated with the insights and realisations I was experiencing. It's for this reason that I now have absolute faith (based on experience, rather than blind acceptance) in what the Buddha taught, but also why I understand where you're coming from. I also said very similar things to you in the past after reading MCTB and joining the Dharma Overground; you can verify this as my posts on the DhO go back over a decade.
    Don't get caught up in maps and models. Just because one model doesn't align with your current understanding, it doesn't mean it should be dismissed in toto. Furthermore, unless you've attained liberation from samsara, you're in no position to tell others how to practice or what works best.







  • Owen Richards
    "Consciousness/Awareness ceases to appear as a substantial and unchanging core of their direct experience, and it is now known to be always specific (eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness...etc"
    How could this be? To whom does it appear this way?
    Like Rupert says, reality would have to be fragmented and discontinuous if this was the case. But there is never in actual experience separate consciousnesses.
    It seems this article is keen to differentiate Buddhism as the One True Path TM, and as such attempts to set up this 'there is no awareness' as a definjng dogma. Pass.


    Soh Wei Yu
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    After experiential insight of anatta, it is clear without doubt that there is no unchanging consciousness. This is the defining difference between Thusness Stage 4 and Stage 5.
    Let's see how Greg Goode, which you can hardly take to be a 'dogmatic Buddhist', and U.G Krishnamurti describes the discontinuity of consciousness (the latter not even being 'Buddhist' at all):
    Greg Goode:
    Stian, cool, get into that strangeness! There is a certain innocent, not-knowing quality to strangeness that counteracts the rush to certainty, the need to arrive, to land.
    I still don't get your "no compromise" point. Can you rephrase it, but without the words "between" or "compromise"?
    Anything can be denied. And is. There is one prominent Advaita teacher that I like who likes to say "You can't deny that you are the awareness that is hearing these words right now."
    This kind of gapless continuity, so prized in Advaita, is readily denied in other approaches to experience:
    you. can't. deny. that. you. are. the. awareness. hearing. these. words. right. now.
    I remember feeling during one retreat, just how many ways that this could be denied. From a different model of time and experience, there are gaps and fissures all over the place, even in that sentence (hence. the. dots). Each moment is divided within itself, carrying traces of past and future (retention and protention). The first "you"-moment and the second "you"-moment are not necessarily experienced by the same entity. Each "I" is different. Entitification itself is felt as autoimmune, as divided within itself, and any "gaplessness" is nothing more than a paste-job.
    Not saying one of these is right and the other wrong. Just pointing out how something so undeniable can readily be denied!
    ......


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Greg Goode:
    Dr. Greg Goode wrote in Emptything:
    It looks your Bahiya Sutta experience helped you see awareness in a different way, more .... empty. You had a background in a view that saw awareness as more inherent or essential or substantive?
    I had an experience like this too. I was reading a sloka in Nagarjuna's treatise about the "prior entity," and I had been meditating on "emptiness is form" intensely for a year. These two threads came together in a big flash. In a flash, I grokked the emptiness of awareness as per Madhyamika. This realization is quite different from the Advaitic oneness-style realization. It carries one out to the "ten-thousand things" in a wonderful, light and free and kaleidoscopic, playful insubstantial clarity and immediacy. No veils, no holding back. No substance or essence anywhere, but love and directness and intimacy everywhere...
    Greg Goode on Advaita/Madhyamika
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Greg Goode on Advaita/Madhyamika
    Greg Goode on Advaita/Madhyamika

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    U.G Krishnamurti:
    Is there in you an entity which you call the 'I' or the 'mind' or the 'self'? Is there a co- ordinator who is co-ordinating what you are looking at with what you are listening to, what you are smelling with what you are tasting, and so on? Or is there anything which links together the various sensations originating from a single sense -- the flow of impulses from the eyes, for example? Actually, there is always a gap between any two sensations. The co-ordinator bridges that gap: he establishes himself as an illusion of continuity.
    In the natural state there is no entity who is co-ordinating the messages from the different senses. Each sense is functioning independently in its own way. When there is a demand from outside which makes it necessary to co-ordinate one or two or all of the senses and come up with a response, still there is no co-ordinator, but there is a temporary state of co- ordination. There is no continuity; when the demand has been met, again there is only the unco-ordinated, disconnected, disjointed functioning of the senses. This is always the case. Once the continuity is blown apart -- not that it was ever there; but the illusory continuity -- it's finished once and for all.
    Can this make any sense to you? It cannot. All that you know lies within the framework of your experience, which is of thought. This state is not an experience. I am only trying to give you a 'feel' of it, which is, unfortunately, misleading.
    When there is no co-ordinator, there is no linking of sensations, there is no translating of sensations; they stay pure and simple sensations. I do not even know that they are sensations. I may look at you as you are talking. The eyes will focus on your mouth because that is what is moving, and the ears will receive the sound vibrations. There is nothing inside which links up the two and says that it is you talking. I may be looking at a spring bubbling out of the earth and hear the water, but there is nothing to say that the noise being heard is the sound of water, or that that sound is in any way connected with what I am seeing. I may be looking at my foot, but nothing says that this is my foot. When I am walking, I see my feet moving -- it is such a funny thing: "What is that which is moving?"
    What functions is a primordial consciousness, untouched by thought.
    ...
    You must always recognize what you are looking at, otherwise you are not there. The moment you translate, the 'you' is there. You look at something and recognize that it is a bag, a red bag. Thought interferes with the sensation by translating. Why does thought interfere? And can you do anything about it? The moment you look at a thing, what comes inside of you is the word 'bag', if not bag', then 'bench' or 'bannister', 'step', "that man sitting there, he has white hair." It goes on and on -- you are repeating to yourself all the time. If you don't do that, you are preoccupied with something else: "I'm getting late for the office." You are either thinking about something which is totally unrelated to the way the senses are functioning at this moment, or else you are looking and saying to yourself "That's a bag, that's a red bag," and so on and so on -- that is all that is there. The word 'bag' separates you from what you are looking at, thereby creating the 'you'; otherwise there is no space between the two.
    Every time a thought is born, you are born. When the thought is gone, you are gone. But the 'you' does not let the thought go, and what gives continuity to this 'you' is the thinking. Actually there is no permanent entity in you, no totality of all your thoughts and experiences. You think that there is 'somebody' who is thinking your thoughts, 'somebody' who is feeling your feelings --- that's the illusion. I can say it is an illusion; but it is not an illusion to you.
    Your emotions are more complex, but it is the same process. Why do you have to tell yourself that you are angry, that you are envious of someone else, or that sex is bothering you? I am not saying anything about fulfilling or not fulfilling. There is a sensation in you, and you say that you are depressed or unhappy or blissful, jealous, greedy, envious. This labelling brings into existence the one who is translating this sensation. What you call "I" is nothing but this word 'red bag', 'bench', 'steps', 'banister', 'light bulb', 'angry', 'blissful', 'jealous', or whatever. You are putting your brain cells to unnecessary activity making the memory cells operate all the time, destroying the energy that is there. This is only wearing you out.
    This labelling is necessary when you must communicate with someone else or with yourself. But you communicate with yourself all the time. Why do you do this? The only difference between you and the person who talks aloud to himself is that you don't talk aloud. The moment you do begin to talk aloud, along comes the psychiatrist. That chap, of course, is doing the same thing that you are doing, communicating to himself all the time -- 'bag', 'red bag', 'obsessive', 'compulsive', 'Oedipus complex,' 'greedy', 'bench', 'banister', 'martini'. Then he says something is wrong with you and puts you on the couch and wants to change you, to help you.
    Why can't you leave the sensations alone? Why do you translate? You do this because if you do not communicate to yourself, you are not there. The prospect of that is frightening to the 'you'.
    ...
    The eyes are like a very sensitive camera. The physiologists say that light reflected off objects strikes the retina of the eye and the sensation goes through the optic nerve to the brain. The faculty of sight, of seeing, is simply a physical phenomenon. It makes no difference to the eyes whether they are focused on a snow-capped mountain or on a garbage can: they produce sensations in exactly the same way. the eyes look on everyone and everything without discrimination.
    You have a feeling that there is a 'cameraman' who is directing the eyes. But left to themselves -- when there is no 'cameraman' -- the eyes do not linger, but are moving all the time. They are drawn by the things outside. Movement attracts them, or brightness or a color which stands out from whatever is around it. There is no 'I' looking; mountains, flowers, trees, cows, all look at me. The consciousness is like a mirror, reflecting whatever is there outside. The depth, the distance, the color, everything is there, but there is nobody who is translating these things. Unless there is a demand for knowledge about what I am looking at, there is no separation, no distance from what is there. It may not actually be possible to count the hairs on the head of someone sitting across the room, but there is a kind of clarity which seems as if I could.
    The eyes do not blink, except when there is sudden danger -- this is something very natural because the things outside are demanding attention all the time. Then, when the eyes are tired, a built-in mechanism in the body cuts them out -- they may be open, but they are blurred. But if the eyes stay open all the time, if the reflex action of blinking is not operating, they become dry and you will go blind; so there are some glands beyond the outer corners of the eyes, which are not activated in your case, which act as a watering mechanism. Tears flow all the time from the outer corners. Ignorant people have described them as 'tears of joy' or 'tears of bliss'. There is nothing divine about them. By practicing not blinking, one will not arrive in this state; one will only strain the eyes. And there are neurotics in mental hospitals whose eyes do not blink for one reason or another -- for them it is a pathological condition. But once you are in your natural state, by some luck or some strange chance, all this happens in its own way.
    U.G. Krishnamurti: The Mystique of Enlightenment
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    U.G. Krishnamurti: The Mystique of Enlightenment
    U.G. Krishnamurti: The Mystique of Enlightenment

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Another description by U G Krishnamurti that I like:
    Your movement of thought interferes with the process of touch, just as it does with the other senses. Anything you touch is always translated as 'hard', 'soft', 'warm', 'cold', 'wet', 'dry', and so on.
    You do not realize it, but it is your thinking that creates your own body. Without this thought process there is no body consciousness -- which is to say there is no body at all. My body exists for other people; it does not exist for me; there are only isolated points of contact, impulses of touch which are not tied together by thought. So the body is not different from the objects around it; it is a set of sensations like any others. Your body does not belong to you.
    Perhaps I can give you the 'feel' of this. I sleep four hours at night, no matter what time I go to bed. Then I lie in bed until morning fully awake. I don't know what is lying there in the bed; I don't know whether I'm lying on my left side or my right side -- for hours and hours I lie like this. If there is any noise outside -- a bird or something -- it just echoes in me. I listen to the "flub-dub-flub-dub" of my heart and don't know what it is. There is no body between the two sheets -- the form of the body is not there. If the question is asked, "What is in there?" there is only an awareness of the points of contact, where the body is in contact with the bed and the sheets, and where it is in contact with itself, at the crossing of the legs, for example. There are only the sensations of touch from these points of contact, and the rest of the body is not there. There is some kind of heaviness, probably the gravitational pull, something very vague. There is nothing inside which links up these things. Even if the eyes are open and looking at the whole body, there are still only the points of contact, and they have no connection with what I am looking at. If I want to try to link up these points of contact into the shape of my own body, probably I will succeed, but by the time it is completed the body is back in the same situation of different points of contact. The linkage cannot stay. It is the same sort of thing when I'm sitting or standing. There is no body.
    Can you tell me how mango juice tastes? I can't. You also cannot; but you try to relive the memory of mango juice now -- you create for yourself some kind of an experience of how it tastes -- which I cannot do. I must have mango juice on my tongue -- seeing or smelling it is not enough -- in order to be able to bring that past knowledge into operation and to say "Yes, this is what mango juice tastes like." This does not mean that personal preferences and 'tastes' change. In a market my hand automatically reaches out for the same items that I have liked all my life. But because I cannot conjure up a mental experience, there can be no craving for foods which are not there.
    Smell plays a greater part in your daily life than does taste. The olfactory organs are constantly open to odors. But if you do not interfere with the sense of smell, what is there is only an irritation in the nose. It makes no difference whether you are smelling cow dung or an expensive French perfume -- you rub the nose and move on.

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    All these described above are also my day to day experience after experiential insight of anatta. But I wanted to quote some people who we can universally agree are far from being "dogmatic", even though I do not consider AtR people here dogmatic.


    Owen Richards
    Soh Wei Yu but even in the expression, " my day to day experience" those senses are united in a single experience. It couldn't be otherwise.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    There is nothing that unifies experience here. There are memories of a past experience, but each moment is unique and there is no referencepoint or centerpoint or a unifying ground to which the different moments refer back to. And yet in this unique instant you can feel the total exertion of all times and the entire universe in that moment of activity.
    Dogen puts it this way:
    "
    Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.
    This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.
    Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring."
    Also,
    [27/1/16, 12:47:33 AM] John Tan: Each form is time anew and each time is an anew form. Hearing sound, that is time. Seeing colors that is time. Actually awareness is altogether forgotten and not needed, so is duration. Only when u step out of "being-time", duration arises. That is what I think Dogen meant by being-time.
    [27/1/16, 1:01:09 AM] John Tan: Also when Dogen say being-time, time is also not just a brief instance, nor is it linear. Past is not before present and present is not before future. The whole of one's entire past and the whole of one's entire future is fully exerted in a single instant manifested as form.
    [27/1/16, 1:17:31 AM] John Tan: To hv a heart to heart communication with Dogen, u must read with the wisdom of total exertion. A brief instance of wisdom is at the same time the full exertion of an infinite lifetimes wisdom. This is not abt beautiful words, u must fully feel it.
    Genjo Koan: Actualizing the Fundamental Point
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Genjo Koan: Actualizing the Fundamental Point
    Genjo Koan: Actualizing the Fundamental Point

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    " my day to day experience"
    Could better be put this way: day1 experience, day2 experience.
    Both are unique. And there is no 'my' or 'me' behind these experiences.
    Anything that refers to "me" just conventional parlance as Buddha taught many times

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    If on the other hand you are practicing self-enquiry, then you just focus on Who am I that's it. But at later phases of insight you'll have to investigate the above.
    John Tan wrote in Dharma Overground back in 2009,
    “Hi Gary,
    It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.
    My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.
    On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.
    Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.
    Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'.”

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  • Owen Richards
    Soh Wei Yu I can only go by experience, and in experience there is the sound of rain, a tingling sensation, the sight of this screen, etc. There are no Chinese walls separating these phenomena. They happen in one awareness, not three separate awarenesses.
    If your experience is different, who am I to argue? But I cannot imagine such a fractured, schizophrenic existence.


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    Owen Richards In my I AM phase, everything happens within a single substratum of awareness/consciousness.
    That background is seen through in anatta. And indeed everything is disjointed and uncoordinated. All these are described in the 2nd 'must read' article by John Tan https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../on-anatta...
    It's important to keep an open and contemplative mind for progress. Otherwise you'll get stuck with some stages of realization.
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
    On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    And as Greg Goode wrote "It looks your Bahiya Sutta experience helped you see awareness in a different way, more .... empty. You had a background in a view that saw awareness as more inherent or essential or substantive?
    I had an experience like this too. I was reading a sloka in Nagarjuna's treatise about the "prior entity," and I had been meditating on "emptiness is form" intensely for a year. These two threads came together in a big flash. In a flash, I grokked the emptiness of awareness as per Madhyamika. This realization is quite different from the Advaitic oneness-style realization. It carries one out to the "ten-thousand things" in a wonderful, light and free and kaleidoscopic, playful insubstantial clarity and immediacy. No veils, no holding back. No substance or essence anywhere, but love and directness and intimacy everywhere..."


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    I have no idea what you mean by "schizophrenic" but here there is no imagination whatsoever, and also no question of identities. I don't know if you mean multiple personality disorders but in anatta there is no self nor Self, no identity whatsoever in any way, shape, and form.
    Only in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, so on and so forth.

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  • Owen Richards
    Soh Wei Yu if there is no self for you, how can you talk about your experience?


  • Soh Wei Yu
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    That question supposes that talking is initiated by an agent, a talker.
    The anatta insight is precisely the realisation that all actions does not need an agent much like "lightning" is simply "flash", it is simply an illusory construct that lightning is an agent which initiates flash, or wind is an agent that initiates blowing, or river is an agent that initiates flowing, etc. Both words are just that activity, that manifestation.
    Likewise awareness is not an agent behind experience but is simply the experience in all its vivid colors, sounds, sensations. There is no one singular awareness behind experience. That is anatta insight.
    The Buddha rejected the "who" question and asks, with what condition X arise? This leads to insight of conditionality.
    Short excerpt:
    "Who, O Lord, feels?"
    "The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he feels.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling; and feeling is the condition of craving.'"
    Flawed Mode of Enquiry
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Flawed Mode of Enquiry
    Flawed Mode of Enquiry

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  • Soh Wei Yu
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    And likewise there is simply experience, no experiencer.
    It is only a convenient convention to call it "my experience", when in truth there is no I, me, or mine whatsoever. Everything just rolls and knows without a knower.
    “Would an arahant say "I" or "mine"?
    Other devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:
    "Consummate with taints destroyed,
    One who bears his final body,
    Would he still say 'I speak'?
    And would he say 'They speak to me'?"
    This deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.
    The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:
    "Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
    He uses such terms as mere expressions."
    The deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of pride and conceit:
    "No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
    For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
    When the wise one has transcended the conceived
    He might still say 'I speak,'
    And he might say 'They speak to me.'
    Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
    He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)” - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../jootla/wheel414.html
    Teacher of the Devas
    ACCESSTOINSIGHT.ORG
    Teacher of the Devas
    Teacher of the Devas

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  • Cheng Chen
    I remember reading this awhile ago - agreed with nearly all points, and especially on Anatta being, more or less, sutta stream entry. I recall this was also one of the better mechanistic rebuttals against the over-hyped pragmatic dharma “cessation stream entry” MCTB inspired stuff…

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