• Book recc
    This is my number 1 favourite Dharma book now.
    Every sentence is gold.
    I will carry it in my bag and read it a few more times.
    This book contains teaching of the definitive view, Dzogchen the Great Perfection.
    It is the Highest teaching on the path, so not provisional teaching / sutrayana in case u r looking for that sort.


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    André A. Pais
    Sutrayana is not necessarily provisional in meaning, only slower methodologically (according to tantra).


  • Yin Ling
    André A. Pais u r right.
    I’m trying to say .. not the lower teachings but sounds very derogatory lol


  • André A. Pais
    And I actually realized that I might be misreading your comment. You may not be equating sutrayana with provisional, but merely saying that the book is neither on provisional teachings nor on sutrayana.


  • Robert Dominik Tkanka
    According to Longchenpa Prasangika Madhyamaka and Dzogchen have the same view but the method is different.


  • Yin Ling
    For me even sutra just complements the whole teaching. The functional side of the ultimate. It’s how one read it.
    But I feel if one person is at sutra level, needs the sutra teaching, reading such book is not skillful..
    Some even will criticise bec they can’t see yet which is not good.


  • André A. Pais
    And Mipham. And the 8th Karmapa (probably all Kagyü lineages). It's no wonder that Madhyamaka, Mahamudra and Dzogchen are often placed side by side and called the 3 greats (Mahamadhyamaka, Mahamudra and Mahasandi).

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  • Robert Dominik Tkanka
    Tulku Urgyen I think said that Madhyamaka is the basis, Mahamudra is the path and Dzogchen is the result. Not sure if he was the source of this teaching, probably its not his invention but a longer commentarial tradition.

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  • André A. Pais
    From the Longchen Nyingthig, revealed by Longchenpa to Jigme Lingpa (in a visionary encounter).
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  • André A. Pais
    And from the 3rd Karmapa, student and teacher of Longchenpa.
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  • John Tan
    As Mipham Rinpoche remarks,
    "A state of freedom from conceptual constructs…may indeed be induced in the mind by virtue of no more than the certainty arising from analytical investigation. This, however, is a very lengthy process and takes birth in connection with, and thanks to, an extraordinary accumulation (of wisdom and of merit).
    On the other hand, skillful methods exist whereby this same freedom from conceptual construction may be achieved more quickly and with comparative ease.
    It can be realized swiftly and without much difficulty in dependence on the profound methods of Mantra, and especially through the power of the pith instructions that introduce one directly to the nature of the mind. It is thus that the experience of the fundamental mode of being occurs."
    Finding Rest in Illusion (page xxxii - xxxiii)


    Yin Ling
    John Tan yes that is my experience. I always think it’s not too hard to point and see. It’s quite simple actually.. but then it turns out it can be very hard for some ppl to see.
    I cannot see the conditions.


  • André A. Pais
    I wonder what Zen folks think of their vehicle being considered very slow. Or is Zen a special (suddenist) type of sutrayana?


  • Robert Dominik Tkanka
    "So close you can’t see it.
    So deep you can’t fathom it.
    So simple you can’t believe it.
    So good you can’t accept it."
    – Kalu Rinpoche
    (The Four "Faults" of Natural Awareness)

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  • Yin Ling
    André A. Pais I feel zen is direct and super fast though.


  • Yin Ling
    André A. Pais MMK and theravada is gradual.


  • John Tan
    Yin Ling yes some have the conditions properly from previous lives. The more refined experiential insights if complemented by analytical approach can be very rewarding.


  • John Tan
    André A. Pais I don't think the zen practitioners consider their vehicle as slow and categorised as sutrayana as it is "outside scriptures, a direct pointing to one's mind".

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