A take on Bahiya Sutta by Ajahn Brahm. Apart from commenting on the instruction given to Bahiya AB provides more context to the story recounted in the sutta and talks about obstacles to realising its meaning (basically lack of sufficient samatha training). What do you guys think of it?

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      Yin Ling
      Admin
      Watched this before.
      Love the background story.
      But AB has always been a big jhana advocate bec of his own background 🙂 he has always been “no jhana no awakening” person.
      But a lot of ppl’s experience in this group shown that it is not really the case. We cannot ignore the evidence, that is my opinion 🙂

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      Kyoshu Okan Özaydin
      Yin Ling same in zen, no samadhi no awakening.


      Yin Ling
      Admin
      Kyoshu Okan Özaydin samadhi in zen is not exactly the jhana AB describe though


    • Agata Hae In
      Yin Ling The samadhis described by chan master Hsu Yun in his autobiography seem to fit the profile though.


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Agata Hae In I am not familiar with said master 🙂


    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Agata Hae In how so, I mean could you elaborate a little bit?

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    • Agata Hae In
      He was one of the last great masters of mainland China, tortured during war at the age over 100 and famous for 11 days long hard samadhi episodes. He was interrogated while being attacked, but sat in the
      meditation posture to enter the state of dhyana. As the blows
      rained down mercilessly, he closed his eyes and mouth and
      seemed to be in the state of samadhi. That day they beat him
      brutally four times and, finally, they threw him to the ground.
      Seeing that he was badly hurt, they thought he was dead and left
      the room. A little later the guards also left and the Master’s
      attendants carried him to a bed and helped him sit in the meditation. On the fifth day, when they heard that the Master was still alive,
      they came again; and seeing that he was sitting in the meditation
      posture as before, they were furiously angry and stuck him with
      wooden sticks. Dragging him to the ground, they kicked and
      trampled on him with their heavy leather boots. As he lay there
      with blood streaming from his head, they thought he was dead,
      laughed brutally, and left. At night, his attendants again carried
      him to the bed and helped him to sit in the meditation posture.
      On the tenth day, early in the morning, he slowly reclined on his
      right side (in a position similar to that of the Buddha at his
      Parinirvana). As he was motionless for a whole day and night, his
      attendant took a lamp-wick and held it close to his nostrils; he
      was found to be breathless and was thought to have died.
      However, the Master’s mien was fresh as usual and his body was
      still warm. His attendants, Fa-yun and Kuan-shan, kept watch by
      his bedside.
      Early in the morning of the eleventh, the Master was heard to
      groan feebly. His attendants helped him sit up and told him how
      long he had sat in dhyana and lain on the bed. Slowly, the Master
      said: ‘I thought it was just a few minutes.’ He then said to Fa-yun:
      ‘Take a pen and write down what I dictate, but don’t’ show the
      notes to outsiders lest they blaspheme."


    • Cheng Chen
      Yin Ling虚云 taught Xuan Hua, who went to the US and founded the ten thousand buddhas compound in California.
      Xuan Hua then donated a significant chunk of land to Ajahn Sumedho to found Abhayagiri monastery.
      Sumedho and Brahm were both students of Ajahn Chah. Though there was some recent schism involving ordaining women into the Thai Theravada tradition or something like that.


      Ng Xin Zhao
      Cheng Chen technically not a schism. To be a schism, there must be 3 other monks on ajahn brahm's side and the2 groups chant the patimokkha separately in the same sima boundaries at the same time.
      It is just that ajahn chah's lineage is from thailand, and the law of the land is no bhikkuni revival. Ajahn brahm did the revival in Australia, while being a branch temple of ajahn chah. So they just removed the branch temple thing to not conflict with the thai origins of the ajahn chah franchise. Ajahn brahm is his own franchise now.


    • Cheng Chen
      Ng Xin Zhao back in my day, we schism’d whenever we wanted to - no chanting needed, just some guns and supplies. Things are so complicated nowadays… Maybe better to just sit.







    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Ling Yin isn't first jhana (out of all 😎 not that big of a deal? It requires just basic meditative training.
      Also Acarya Malcolm Smith has explained at some point that attaining it in concordance with the 5 factors is a minimum of shine (samatha) that a practitioner of Dzogchen has to achieve as a prerequisite for effective Dzogchen Atiyoga practice. This seems to match nicely.


      Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Beyond that Malcolm said that one doesn't really need to work on higher jhanas beyond that and they will happen anyway as a by product of Dzogchen training.
      Now Id argue even the first arupajhana is actually quite common with Dzogchen practice as there are many exercises in Atiyoga that deal with resting in limitless space.


      Yin Ling
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka u familiar with AB definition of jhana?
      His is a super hard jhana.
      No vipassana activity starting 2nd jhana.
      It’s not our usual Mahayana style samadhi.


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka but I don’t want to discuss jhana. Headache.
      Let’s go back to Bahiya sutra hahahaa


    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Yin Ling good you bring this up, Im that familiar with AB's work but I had vague idea that it might be so. I think the proponents of the arahat path generally have a "hard approach" when it comes to censoring out the sense stimuli. I think this has precisely to do with the way they are so much into renouncing: eradicating klesas by stilling the mind (not exactly substituting them with positive states of mind like in the Mahayana approach), eliminating distractors by ideally leading life of ascetic monkhood (while Mahayana has the room for lay awakening like in the example of Vimalakirti).


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka it is more problematic that he openly says “no jhana no awakening”.
      That’s gonna kill a lot of ppls opportunity to get out of cyclic existence.
      Ok I’m gonna shut up lol before I create bad karma for myself 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️


    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Yin Ling haha we can make some other post about Bahiya Sutta in the next few days when this is over. For now it seems like the question of samadhi in relation to anatta has totally dominated the thread.


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka hahaha I really do not like it when crucial sutta like the Bahiya get drowned by things like jhana
      and ppl get distracted by jhana when the former is the potent medicine🫣😴😴😴


    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Yin Ling I think it is ok for him to say that in the context of his path. Basically he teaches a path to arhathood and not Mahayana style approach so at some point his teachings won't be suitable to people with Mahayana inclinations like us and generally to people wanting to achieve while leading householder's life.
      I mean among non-mahayanists the debate is whether you have to leave your home behind in order to become an arhat or you just automatically leave it behind upon reaching arhathood. This is telling IMO.
      So as a Theravadin his job is to be hardcore about the tenets of his system and ours is to provide alternatives I guess 😇😂


    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Yin Ling I hear ya. On the other hand we could turn this around and say that Bahiya Sutta is so central to the path of liberation that we can have many conversations about pretty much everything in relation to Bahiya Sutta. Including Jhana. So this could be changed grom the matter of being drowned it to be revolved around 😆


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      I am hugely influenced by AB when I was young and at one point Nearly gave up the path .. so I have my own opinions
      I’m thankful for whatever good karma in my past lives, I met a teacher who trained me differently and believe I have what it takes and it turn out I am very insight inclined. Insight happen to me rapidly. Not jhana. It is like the 4 persons in what soh posted.
      I was thinking what if another person does not have the opportunity to meet with a teacher who is as discerning as mine?
      Bec samsara is such a serious matter for me, I am honest when it comes to opinion about practise even though it might make me seem disrespectful and arrogant. If it helps someone, then maybe a person could get out of cyclic existence







    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Im of the opinion that if one realises the meaning of Bahiya Sutta then one also unlocks meditative experience of the first formless absorption (1st arupajhana) limitless space jhana. My reasoning:
      - according to Abhidharma in the basic vehicle one reaches stream entry by eradicating the false view of self (basically realising what youre pointing to Ling Yin) and then goes on to practising jhanas as an antidote to kleshas
      - Anatta leads to loosing the center, and characteristic peak experience associated with it includes no center and no boundaries (basically limitless space).
      Not only that but Id corellate progressive stages of meditating on emptiness set out by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche with consecutive levels of arupajhanas (with the crucial distinction that stages by KTGR are vipassana and arupajhanas are only samatha!).
      After the 1st stage of KTGR's model it would go like this (looking at the names it looks self-explanatory 😉 ):
      2nd stage of Cittamatra/Vijnanavada, consciousness only - 2nd arupajhana of limitless consciousness;
      3rd stage of Svatantrika of finding no thing in phenomena, lack of phenomena's intrinsic existence - 3rd jhana of nothingness/cessation of perception;
      4th stage of Prasangika of arriving at nonconceptuality beyond the extremes of existence and nonexistence - 4th arupajhana of neither existence nor nonexistence also called nonconceptual or neither perception nor nonperception
      Now it is a point of contention whether one accessing arupajhana receives any sensory input (originally debate revolved around the sense of hearing but arguably beacuse being still in meditation with eye-closed samatha limits the input from other senses in itself).
      Id take the stance that one can have the sensory input while in formless jhana. It has to do with my Dzogchen bias (in Dzogchen meditating with eyes open and integrating the senses is strongly encouraged).
      Now Im not a jhana expert so I wonder if Tommy McNally , who seems to be more familiar with jhana practice, could weight in on all of that.


      Tommy McNally
      Robert Dominik Tkanka I'm not sure if I can add anything useful to the conversation, to be honest. 😂
      I don't believe that so-called "hard jhana" is necessary, or even desirable. Temporary suppression of the hindrances is one thing, but unless we're hacking at their roots with the machete of vipassana then we're just playing with fabrications.
      Right Concentration seems to me to be the five jhanic factors and nothing more complicated than that. As Malcolm suggests, the other jhanas will happen anyway with strong practice, but the one-pointedness seems to be the biggest thing to master with samatha.


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka I don't think anatta realisation must necessarily unlock the jhanas as defined by Buddha.
      Even an arahant with ten fetters eliminated may not have access to formless jhanas, let alone a stream enterer who has just newly realised anatta and conditionality*.
      * " Hi Zom & all,
      All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).
      Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).
      In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.
      All the best,
      Geoff"


    • The Meaning of Nirvana
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      The Meaning of Nirvana
      The Meaning of Nirvana

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Also Geoff's PDF Measureless Mind is a must read, John Tan told me to put it to the top of the list which I agree - very well presented.
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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka At most we can say there are likeness to jhanas but it may not necessarily be the jhana state itself. The Buddha also said the jhanas has some likeness to nibbana (can't remember which sutta but I think he said this)

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Malcolm and general teaching disagrees with AB definition of jhana (aka hard jhana)
      “According to my sources in the Kenjur and Tenjur, the only senses that cease operation in the first dhyāna are smell and taste. Sight, hearing, and tactile sensation remain active.”

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      Yin Ling
      Admin
      Soh Wei Yu no doubt AB is a great practitioner and surely has deep jhana training in his past lives for him to enter jhanas easily hence he teach from his way..
      Not knowing a huge group of population does not have that skills. It can be demoralising. I was one of them hence I say this. Not to disrespect AB. He is a great practitioner monk. But for ppl to know that those hard jhanas definition is not general teaching
      Which I have read enough to know.

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      Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Yes
      Also
      He dunno how to discern different capacities and teach different ways:
      The Buddha teaches:
      These four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four?
      There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. There is... the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness. There is... the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And there is... the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
      The individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way... investigated in this way... seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
      As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquility of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquility of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way... made to settle down in this way... unified in this way... concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
      As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquility of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way... made to settle down in this way... unified in this way... concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way... investigated in this way... seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
      As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquility of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the effluents*.
      — AN 4.94


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Soh Wei Yu I have to agree w u though I know We will get bombed hard. 😅 he is a famous monk so his words influence millions of ppl.


    • Myriad Objects
      Soh Wei Yu the “hard jhana” sensory blackout standard is even debated and controversial between different Theravada traditions
      there are schools that insist the senses are operating normally, and that samadhi must be paired with mindfulness
      I think I recall even seeing some Theravada teachers say firmly established/unshakeable mindfulness = samadhi
      (mindfulness of experience as a whole)

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      I had jhana experiences before i had insights but many didnt and i was not in jhana when i realised anatta. I was marching while doing “boot camp” in military and contemplating bahiya sutta.
      “Re: Is first dhyāna necessary for the first bhūmi?
      Report Quote
      Post Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:37 am
      Caoimhghín wrote: ↑
      The title says it all. Related: Is first dhyāna necessary for any particular significant degree of Bodhi?
      Malcolm:
      Nope.”
      “Samadhi is a natural mental factor of one pointedness. People with no experience, who like to follow books like recipe guides, say such things as "first dhyāna is absolutely mandatory for the path of seeing." But then you have to ask them if they have discovered the path of seeing. If they say no, then obviously they are just going to the basis of what they have heard or read in a book. If they say yes, there are other tests you can apply.
      In Mahāyāna, the samadhi part is not perfected until the fifth bhumi. There is no requirement for the first dhyāna to realize the first bhumi. The first bhumi merely requires realization of śunyatā. That can come about as a result of the union of śamatha and vipaśyāna, or it can be arrived at merely through vipaśyāna. It depends on the person. All that is really necessary is that aspiring bodhisattva can focus on their analysis on the emptiness of objects without being distracted, but is certainly does not mean that they have to first perfect all four or five factors of the first dhyāna. It won't harm them if they do, but it is not required.
      You should examine Discerning the Middle from the Extremes, it presents a concise summary of the five paths and how they are realized in Mahāyāna. Madhyamaka texts do not discuss this so much, at least, not early ones.”
      “That's what I meant by people who just read books. The only concentration one needs is to be able to focus on one's analysis without being distracted. That's it.
      If one goes chasing after samadhi, one will waste a lot of time and never realize emptiness, and that is a fact.”
      “Below the path of seeing, the dhyānas are just causes for rebirth.”
      “Without vipaśyanā, samādhi is useless——this is why there are three prajñās, not only one. Meditation just isn't the main point of Buddhadharma. Prajñā is.”
      “Prajñā is not acquired through samādhi at all. However, śila provides a basis for a focused mind (samādhi), and a focused mind provides a basis for prajñā.
      Prajñā is acquired through hearing (śrutimayāprajñā), reflection (cintamayāprajñā), and cultivation (bhāvanamayīprajñā).
      The dhyānas are not required for this at all. Samādhi is just mental one-pointedness on a object. For most people, that would be TV, these days.”
      “The only difference between the samādhi of watching TV and the training of samādhi in the Dharma is that the former is contaminated, and the latter is not. But the samādhi, the mental factor, is identical in both cases, only the object is different. What makes the samādhi part hard is that it is difficult to shift one's focus from mundane contaminated objects to mundane uncontaminated objects, such as the path dharmas. Hence, the need for śila as a basis for samādhi. But this has nothing actually to do with samādhi itself. Samādhi can be focused wherever one likes. And in the case of a practitioners, that concentration is focused on Dharma. It also has nothing developing rarified samadhis, etc. Samādhi here just means being able to focus the mind at will. Thats it. People keep turning these things into strange beasts. We avoid things that disturb our minds (śila), so that we can focus (samādhi) on developing the three wisdoms. That's it. It's not complicated.
      Its better to understand the essence of a thing, rather than pile elaboration on top of elaboration.”
      Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
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      Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana

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      Yin Ling
      Admin
      Soh Wei Yu same. I too go through the vipassana jhanas as my mind even though doing vipassana practise leaned towards the jhanic side of the spectrum, hence not so “dry”. Vipassana ppl will understand. A lite form of jhana. Also played with deeper jhanas which took a lot of time and effort.
      But anatta insight which change the whole energy field is not really related to these in out altered consciousness practises.


      Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Also in fact i have never heard people realise anatta while in jhana but certainly it is possible (because anatta is really a dharma seal in all states and is the nature of mind and all dharmas)
      If ajahn brahm really realised anatta during jhana he will be the first one (in modern times) i have heard

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    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Soh Wei Yu he mentioned “u just collect data during jhana and analyse after”. Coz his jhana is like a stone state.
      I went into this stoned state once and seriously so stoned I don’t know how one could see clearly anything at all. Everything just frozen . So I’m not sure how he realise.
      I actually went to read 100 plus Theravada books to see what other theravada ppl say about AB jhana few years ago.
      Gave me so much headache coz everyone say differnt things .. even ajahn Chah his teacher doesn’t talk about jhana like AB.
      Anyway those are in the past lol. Hopefuly those who are not jhana incline don’t give up this path. Like I once wanted to


    • Daniel Lester
      it was said that buddha was meditating in jhana just before his final awakening. But of course this could just be heresay. From what i gather jhanas are useful for sharpening the sword thats cuts through kilesas. One cannot obtain enlightenment within them as they are still just phenomena, but after coming out of them insight & fruitions come easier.
      Not to mention the importance of developing the bramaviharas through the jhanas, sometimes overlooked with just self enquiry.


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      He definitely was.
      He was also recalling aeons of past lives etc.. these things generally happen due to jhana


    • Daniel Lester
      Yes im curious whats everyones stance here between soft Jhana & hard Jhana and the sutas versus the vissudimagga? Or pa auk style jhana practice?
      There is much dispute that during the buddha everyone was achieving jhanas and it was very easy (soft jhanas)? But then the vissudimagga has different opinion ie (hard jhana) very few can obtain the higher hard jhanas etc.


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      I consider what Malcolm and Geoff writes to be definitive.








    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Ive mentioned it in one of the subthreads but it seems worthwhile to reiterate that the matter of sensory perception while in jhanas is one of the so called points of contention among various early Buddhist schools.
      So this debate goes way, way back it seems lol 😅




    • Aditya Prasad
      To quote Malcolm:
      "A perfect śamatha is nothing more than the first dhyāna, attended by five mental factors: vitarka, vicara, prithi, sukha and ekagraha. This is a universal definition.
      The idea that it takes a year to develop this experience is ridiculous. If you understand what you are doing, you can develop this experience in as little as a single afternoon.
      Since the mental factors of vitarka and vicara drop off above the first dhyāna, when one's motivation is to engage in vipaśyāna, it is not appropriate to cultivate anything more than this."
      A single afternoon seems a little extreme, but there seems to be good evidence that with a few days of precise training, people can have sufficient shamatha to have a clear glimpse of I AM and even higher stages.
      How important is shamatha, and practices before shamatha - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
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      How important is shamatha, and practices before shamatha - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
      How important is shamatha, and practices before shamatha - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel


      Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      A single afternoon sounds about right.
      When I was 14 and practicing anapanasati for the first or second time, maybe the first time, I entered into a state where my body starts to feel “numb and stoned” and vanish, and yet simultaneously this very intense bliss waves pervade my whole body from top to bottom. My whole mind and body then was blissfully absorbed into an altered state. Was really sublime and intense and it is quite right when Ajahn Brahm said jhana is better than sex. Much more blissful and sublime than anything sensual.
      My dharma teacher (at the I AM) phase couldnt recognise what i said probably because she didnt practice any jhanas at all and purely focused on the I AM. But when i told john tan online, he told me immediately it is jhana

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      Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      I later learned the bliss part is Piti / Pithi


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Soh Wei Yu wow soh u enter jhana first time u sit. Damn impressive, must have practise intensively past lives!


    • Cheng Chen
      Soh Wei Yu very fortunate, you are, to have JT provide guidance at such a young age.


      Soh Wei Yu
      Admin
      Yes without him i would be lost and my progress will be I AM at most


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Soh Wei Yu JT is precious 🙂


    • Robert Dominik Tkanka
      Author
      Yin Ling he sure is. I also owe my own insight into Anatta largely to JT and Soh Wei Yu 🙂


    • Yin Ling
      Admin
      Robert Dominik Tkanka I am likewise 🙂 plus insight into emptiness 🙂

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