While sharing the seven stages with people with I AM realization in reddit, I find that the teachings of mystic Neville Lancelot Goddard is popular in reddit. Neville teaches people to realize the I AM and use the power of Source/Awareness/Consciousness to manifest one's desires through visualization. 

His teachings reminded me of a conversation with John Tan back in 2006.

"for buddhism, there is a way of seeing the 'actuality' from moment to moment.  It is the path towards enlightenment. :) for some ppl, they have a glimpse of the source but live in the symbolic layer." "bob has dwelled too deep into the symbolic layer and tasted the power of it in relationship to this conventional reality.  It is harder for him to understand the  second stage as stated in the tozan. :)" "Buddha taught the path of living in reality.  The reality is the ultimate reality.  Sentient being deluded with forms and names cannot understand the essence of the  teaching.  This is the only way towards ultimate liberation. It is not about manipulation of a conventional reality. the reality of what bob talk about is the conventional reality. Because they are unable to know the bliss of nirvana, they seek power to control and overcome the conventional reality. Being so, it is difficult for these people to truly understand the teachings. The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power over the conventional reality.  Not for the purpose of enlightenment. :)" - John Tan, 2006


Also see: Tozan Ryokai's Verses on the Five Ranks


Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

....


Session Start: Thursday, August 03, 2006



(11:35 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689

(11:35 PM) (E-mail Address Not Verified) has changed his/her status to Online

(11:36 PM) AEN: Dear Forum,


Xsurf posted: "See deep silence as flow,

See form as emptiness,

See actuality as tendencies,

See solidity as flux."


I like this, but I would say if I were writing this....


"See actuality as potential reality." It is the same, but is using modern terms, and little different twist of the concept involved.


There is a question in all of this that we must ask ourselves. And the question is: "What is more important to us; our reality or the actuality?"


bob

(11:36 PM) John: bob is from where?

(11:36 PM) AEN: simpo

(11:36 PM) AEN: forum

(11:36 PM) John: i mean...he is from which country?

(11:36 PM) John: US?

(11:39 PM) AEN: not sure but not singapore most likely

(11:42 PM) John: bob has dwelled too deep into the symbolic layer and tasted the power of it in relationship to this conventional reality.  It is harder for him to understand the  

second stage as stated in the tozan. :)

(11:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:44 PM) AEN: what u mean by dwelled too deeply into the symbolic layer

(11:45 PM) John: psychic deals with the symbolic layer is similar to the tantric practices.

(11:45 PM) AEN: erm can explain ? :P

(11:45 PM) John: why is jhanas not the same as insight meditation?

(11:46 PM) AEN: jhana is a form of absorption, insight meditation is seeing into reality

(11:46 PM) John: seeing reality is not what Buddha taught. :)

(11:47 PM) AEN: huh?

(11:47 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(11:48 PM) John: Buddha taught the path of living in reality.  The reality is the ultimate reality.  Sentient being deluded with forms and names cannot understand the essence of the  

teaching.  This is the only way towards ultimate liberation.

(11:49 PM) John: It is not about manipulation of a conventional reality.

(11:49 PM) John: the reality of what bob talk about is the conventional reality.

(11:50 PM) John: Because they are unable to know the bliss of nirvana, they seek power to control and overcome the conventional reality.

(11:51 PM) John: Being so, it is difficult for these people to truly understand the teachings.

(11:51 PM) AEN: icic

(11:51 PM) AEN: overcome conventional reality by psychic powers?

(11:52 PM) John: The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power over the conventional reality.  Not for the purpose of enlightenment. :)

(11:52 PM) AEN: oic isit

(11:52 PM) AEN: but hmm i tot bob is already to certain extent enlightened?

(11:53 PM) John: i have told u many times about the first stage and the different dimension of the first stage, he is not in the second stage yet.

(11:53 PM) AEN: icic

(11:54 PM) John: u know the different between tozan five degree of enlightenment and the general 3 stages i told u?

(11:54 PM) AEN: The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power --> oh so tats wat tao te ching is saying at the end of the 1st verse

(11:54 PM) AEN: as in, its possibility

(11:54 PM) AEN: hmm yea

(11:55 PM) John: yes. :)

(11:55 PM) John: what are the diff?

(11:55 PM) AEN: which one

(11:55 PM) John: what i told u about the 3 stages and tozan 5 stages?

(11:55 PM) AEN: oh sorry

(11:55 PM) AEN: u mean wat are the difference between the two 'sets' of stages

(11:55 PM) John: yeah

(11:56 PM) AEN: u said the 5 stages is more like.. in terms of engaging in activities?

(11:57 PM) John: can u map the 3 stages i told u and tell me the diff?

(11:58 PM) AEN: 1st stage is I AM, 2nd stage is all is emptiness, 3rd stage is abiding presence, self so

(11:59 PM) John: how does tozan 5 degree map to the 3 stages?

(12:02 AM) AEN: 2nd stage in tozan is the "1.5-2.0" in the 3 stages of presence?

(12:04 AM) AEN: u there?

(12:04 AM) AEN: ll

(12:04 AM) AEN: lol

(12:04 AM) John: no..

(12:04 AM) John: they are exactly the same. :)

(12:04 AM) AEN: huh??

(12:04 AM) AEN: what are exactly the same?

(12:04 AM) John: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3

(12:04 AM) AEN: then what about 4 and 5

(12:04 AM) AEN: lol

(12:05 AM) John: lol...u must understand the first 3 stages first. :)

(12:05 AM) AEN: oic

(12:06 AM) John: the first is the "I AM" and is what that most mystic undergo

(12:06 AM) John: it is always sinking back to the source.

(12:06 AM) John: their understanding is not complete

(12:06 AM) AEN: icic

(12:07 AM) John: even they have experience that the source is everything in a meditative stage, they are unable to live in and fully authenticate it moment by moment.

(12:07 AM) AEN: oic

(12:07 AM) John: only one that has thoroughly understand no-self and emptiness is able to do it.

(12:08 AM) John: they see the phenomenon world as source

(12:09 AM) John: the ultimate level of the first stage is the ground of being and seeing everything comes out from it

(12:09 AM) John: even life and death are from it

(12:09 AM) AEN: oic

(12:09 AM) John: these practitioner will also sink back to the source

(12:10 AM) John: because they are unable to see the source whenever and wherever they are.  Though they may say that the source is not lost and is ever present, the actual experience  

isn't there.

(12:11 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:11 AM) John: for one that enters the second stage, realness is at the arising and ceasing, nirvana is samsara.

(12:12 AM) John: the realness is at the phenomenal world.

(12:12 AM) AEN: oic

(12:12 AM) John: there is no need to sink back to the source.  No I is needed.

(12:12 AM) John: This is true enlightenment. :)

(12:12 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:13 AM) John: this is the stage where zen master always tok about just the manifestation.

(12:13 AM) John: and there is no ending to the experience.

(12:13 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:14 AM) John: the third is the self arising.  This is the true self arising as it already undergo the second stage.

(12:14 AM) John: what did the tozan say...

(12:14 AM) AEN: III. The Coming from within the Real:


The Relative within the Absolute [sho-chu-rai]


In this rank, the Mahayana bodhisattva does not remain in the state of attainment that he has realized, but from the midst of the sea of effortlessness he lets his great uncaused compassion  

shine forth. Standing upon the Four Bodhisattva Vows, he lashes forward the Dharma-wheel of " seeking Bodhi above and saving sentient beings below." This is the so-called "coming-from within  

the going-to, the going-to within the coming-from." Moreover, he must know the moment of [the meeting of] the paired opposites, brightness and darkness. Therefore the rank of " The Arrival  

at Mutual Integration " has been set up.



(12:15 AM) John: The Coming from within the Real

(12:15 AM) AEN: icic

(12:16 AM) AEN: which means self arising

(12:16 AM) John: yes...the 'coming' is the self-arising

(12:16 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:16 AM) John: no more 'seeing'

(12:16 AM) AEN: oic

(12:17 AM) John: no more apparent within real and real within apparent

(12:17 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:18 AM) John: apparent within real is the ground being that everything pops in and out that i said.  Many taught that this ultimate experience of the first stage is all.

(12:18 AM) John: real within apparent is what no-self and emptiness taught.

(12:18 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:18 AM) John: the 'coming' out of the real is the effortless self arising

(12:19 AM) AEN: icic

(12:19 AM) AEN: then wat about The Arrival at Mutual Integration? lol

(12:20 AM) John: this is the true understanding of the self-arising. :)

(12:20 AM) AEN: 3rd stage not yet true understanding?

(12:20 AM) AEN: or refined understanding?

(12:20 AM) AEN: as in in 4th stage

(12:20 AM) John: only in opposites u see self-arising.

(12:21 AM) John: din u see what i wrote about the un-manifested as the manifestation

(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:21 AM) John: the stillness as the flow

(12:21 AM) AEN: oh ya

(12:21 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:21 AM) AEN: oh i remember hui neng said something

(12:22 AM) AEN: like, always teach in the other opposite

(12:22 AM) AEN: like if someone say this, u reply with the opposite

(12:22 AM) AEN: something like that

(12:22 AM) John: that is to refine the knowledge...

(12:22 AM) AEN: icic

(12:22 AM) John: hui neng in the first and second stanza are all toking about the source.

(12:23 AM) AEN: which stanza?

(12:23 AM) John: first is the famous one, no dust alight one lah

(12:23 AM) AEN: oic

(12:23 AM) AEN: second?

(12:23 AM) John: the second one is when the 5th patriarch taught him then he said how wonderful.

(12:24 AM) AEN: huh which one :P

(12:24 AM) John: why seek when the source hasn't moved

(12:24 AM) John: why seek when the source is already complete

(12:24 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:24 AM) AEN: hmm cant remember where

(12:24 AM) AEN: second one is 5th patriarch say one?

(12:24 AM) John: i also can't remember

(12:24 AM) AEN: or hui neng say one

(12:24 AM) AEN: icic

(12:24 AM) John: hui neng...

(12:24 AM) AEN: oic

(12:24 AM) John: 5th patriach where got tok like that lah

(12:25 AM) AEN: hahahaah

(12:26 AM) John: the tozan 3 stage onwards is stabilizing only and the importance of vow...

(12:26 AM) AEN: oic

(12:26 AM) John: even when one reaches the 2 and 3 stages, the karmic propensities are still functioning

(12:27 AM) John: why are vows important, one must know the causal causes. :)

(12:27 AM) AEN: what causal causes

(12:27 AM) John: dunno...only buddha knows...lol

(12:27 AM) AEN: har

(12:27 AM) AEN: lol

(12:27 AM) AEN: icic

(12:27 AM) John: still remember i ask u the 4 imponderables

(12:27 AM) AEN: yea

(12:28 AM) John: when one reaches the 3 rd stage, he is only dealing with this pre-conscious karmic propensities

(12:29 AM) John: a normal practitioner will go by self effort.

(12:29 AM) John: not by vows. :)

(12:29 AM) AEN: oic

(12:29 AM) John: vows are not just about compassions

(12:29 AM) AEN: hmm i read ven sheng yen say, only a 8th bhumi bodhisattva no longer need to rely on vows

(12:29 AM) AEN: oic then

(12:29 AM) AEN: cos 8th bhumi immovable

(12:30 AM) John: :)  Not everyone can comment about the vows. :)

(12:30 AM) AEN: oic

(12:31 AM) John: making a vow that is indefinite

(12:31 AM) John: u know the consequences?

(12:31 AM) AEN: what consequence

(12:31 AM) John: who knows the consequences besides the Blessed One. :)

(12:32 AM) AEN: but it will lead one towards buddhahood isnt it

(12:32 AM) John: it is only through faith.

(12:32 AM) AEN: huh

(12:32 AM) AEN: oic

(12:32 AM) AEN: without vows, one may become arhant but not reach buddhahood

(12:32 AM) AEN: i tink

(12:32 AM) John: this is the main diff. :)

(12:33 AM) John: the power of vow is a form of faith for the sage level that

(12:34 AM) John: arahat and pratyeka buddha don't know.

(12:34 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:34 AM) John: so one relies on the faith of the buddha's words.

(12:34 AM) AEN: icic

(12:35 AM) AEN: have u taken any vows then? haha

(12:35 AM) John: hahhaaha have not. :P

(12:35 AM) AEN: icic

(12:36 AM) John: u know the different of a 'pratyeka and arahat' and sentient being making a vow?

(12:36 AM) AEN: what is it?

(12:37 AM) AEN: dunno leh

(12:37 AM) John: lol...cannot tell u. :P

(12:37 AM) AEN: actually i heard teacher chen is also asked by master to 'hui xiao xiang da'.. meaning walk mahayana path

(12:37 AM) AEN: oic why

(12:37 AM) AEN: lol

(12:38 AM) John: hui xiao xiang da?

(12:38 AM) AEN: hold on

(12:39 AM) AEN: ????

(12:39 AM) John: ic. :)

(12:43 AM) John: if one person hasn't attained true understanding and started telling ppl "I AM" is the ultimate way towards liberation, is that good?

(12:43 AM) AEN: nope

(12:43 AM) John: why?

(12:43 AM) AEN: mislead ppl?

(12:45 AM) John: until one truly understand why is non-doing and when pre-conscious karmic propensities is fully understood, i don't want to make comments about vows. :)

(12:46 AM) John: only if it comes from the inner selfless arising of that person and that person must make his/her own decision.

(12:46 AM) John: this is very important.

(12:46 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:47 AM) John: because it is an infinite vow.

(12:47 AM) John: it is a forever commitment. :)

(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:48 AM) John: it has to come from that person himself.  I normally do not give ppl any advises regarding this. :)

(12:48 AM) AEN: oic

(12:49 AM) AEN: but eventually everyone will reach buddhahood isnt it

(12:49 AM) AEN: even arhants and pratyekabuddhas will reach buddhahood

(12:50 AM) John: after the 3rd stage until all karmic propensities subsides, there is no diff.  When one reaches the 2nd stage, he/she already know what is it all about. :)

(12:50 AM) AEN: u mean vows?

(12:50 AM) John: not vows.

(12:51 AM) AEN: wat is all about

(12:51 AM) John: about the meaning of liberation

(12:51 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:51 AM) AEN: wat u mean by 'there is no diff'

(12:52 AM) John: there is no difference in terms of enlightenment regarding the source.

(12:52 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:52 AM) John: our Buddha's nature remains, nothing can be done at all.

(12:53 AM) John: it is on other matters....hehehe...

(12:53 AM) AEN: oh haha

(12:53 AM) AEN: eh brb

(12:54 AM) AEN: back

(12:54 AM) AEN: on other matters?

(12:56 AM) John: u better sleep...getting late. :)

(12:56 AM) AEN: haha ok

(12:56 AM) John: anyway bob question is quite important for simpo. :)

(12:56 AM) AEN: how come

(12:57 AM) John: it depends on which path he wants to walk. :)

(12:57 AM) AEN: why

(12:57 AM) AEN: wat path

(12:58 AM) John: some ppl doesn't want enlightenment and liberation leh

(12:58 AM) AEN: What is more important to us; our reality or the actuality?

(12:58 AM) AEN: so wat wld be ur ans

(12:58 AM) AEN: haha

(12:59 AM) John: for buddhism, there is a way of seeing the 'actuality' from moment to moment.  It is the path towards enlightenment. :)

(1:00 AM) John: for some ppl, they have a glimpse of the source but live in the symbolic layer.

(1:00 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:01 AM) John: sheng and xian, u know what is the diff or not?

(1:01 AM) AEN: wats the diff

(1:02 AM) John: how is xian written in chinese character?

(1:02 AM) AEN: ?

(1:02 AM) John: nope

(1:02 AM) AEN: huh

(1:02 AM) AEN: which one

(1:02 AM) John: xian1

(1:02 AM) AEN: shen xian?

(1:02 AM) John: yeah

(1:03 AM) AEN: ?

(1:03 AM) John: yeah....what does that mean?

(1:03 AM) AEN: xian is immortal?

(1:03 AM) John: human in the mountain. :P

(1:03 AM) John: u think doing what...

(1:03 AM) John: practicing

(1:04 AM) AEN: oic

(1:05 AM) John: as for u, u practice according to ur ren chen and don't get misled.

(1:05 AM) AEN: icic

(1:05 AM) AEN: ok

(1:05 AM) John: bob question let simpo answer. :)

(1:05 AM) John: lol

(1:05 AM) AEN: hahaha

(1:05 AM) AEN: icic

(1:06 AM) AEN: anyway wat different path. one never lead to enlightenment ?

(1:06 AM) John: will lah...just longer...lol

(1:06 AM) AEN: haha.. how come

(1:06 AM) AEN: wat do u mean

(1:06 AM) AEN: so which path is faster?

(1:06 AM) AEN: lol

(1:07 AM) AEN: but bob seems to imply 'actuality' is more important right

(1:07 AM) John: because one is unable to 'see', a lifetime gets wasted. :)

(1:07 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:08 AM) John: bob uses another way to approach the source lah

(1:09 AM) John: ultimately one must go beyond the symbolic layer to come face to face and get authenticated every moment.

(1:09 AM) John: however at the intermediate stage, one might resort to symbols to understand the deeper levels of our consciousness.

(1:09 AM) AEN: icic

(1:09 AM) AEN: by symbols wat exactly u mean

(1:10 AM) John: dreams, science, philosophies, math, religion, psychic....etc

(1:10 AM) John: all these belongs to the symbolic layer

(1:10 AM) John: shamanism

(1:10 AM) AEN: all these can approach source meh?

(1:11 AM) John: psychic goes deeper into the deeper layer

(1:11 AM) John: of course

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:11 AM) John: but they will not reach it. :P

(1:11 AM) AEN: reach the source?

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic

(1:11 AM) AEN: bob and simpo practises dream interpretation, and stuff like that

(1:11 AM) AEN: is tat wat u're saying?

(1:11 AM) John: they will come to a point like a raft

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic

(1:12 AM) John: not only that

(1:12 AM) John: reiki

(1:12 AM) AEN: reiki is just a healing practise rite

(1:12 AM) John: visualization...concentration...etc

(1:12 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:12 AM) John: all is to touch the source.

(1:12 AM) AEN: oic

(1:12 AM) John: u think reiki never understand anything about God can heal ah

(1:13 AM) AEN: haha dunnu leh

(1:13 AM) AEN: but seem like anyone can practise reiki?

(1:13 AM) AEN: maybe i wrong

(1:13 AM) John: yeah...it is the sensing of the energy...

(1:14 AM) John: when one understand the consciousness and just the level of no-self, he will know what is meant by qi and reiki

(1:14 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:14 AM) AEN: but i tot qi is accessible to non enlightened ppl? like by practising qigong and stuff like that

(1:15 AM) AEN: hmm even eckhart tolle talk about Qi and stuff

(1:15 AM) John: enlightenment is about understanding no-self and emptiness

(1:15 AM) AEN: he says it is something that connects the unmanifested and the manifested world

(1:15 AM) John: not about tapping energy from the source, told u liao.

(1:15 AM) AEN: oic

(1:17 AM) John: precisely...in no-self, there is just movement, that is the sensation of qi without awakening of prajna wisdom.

(1:17 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:18 AM) John: just like one suddenly enter into a thoughtless state, instead of coming to the awareness that it is the key towards understand our buddha's nature

(1:19 AM) John: one experience some other stuff in a thoughtless state and go the other way.

(1:19 AM) AEN: oic...

(1:19 AM) John: go sleep. :)

(1:19 AM) AEN: haha ok

(1:19 AM) AEN: gd nite

(1:19 AM) John: nite


Session Start: Sunday, August 06, 2006


(12:33 PM) John: anyway u know about the "AMness is God" that i write?

(12:33 PM) AEN: yea i saw

(12:33 PM) AEN: what about it

(12:33 PM) John: that is exactly the "apparent in the real"

(12:33 PM) AEN: icic

(12:33 PM) AEN: ya i remember

(12:33 PM) John: more elaborate description.  

(12:33 PM) AEN: oic

(12:34 PM) John: but casino say i missed something remember...i say unless he can tell me what is no-self and emptiness.  

(12:34 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:34 PM) AEN: yea

(12:34 PM) John: lol

(12:35 PM) John: but casino is still maybe 0.25...so don't know the profound teaching of no-self and emptiness...therefore talking about the one mind is dangerous.

(12:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:35 PM) AEN: why do u tink casino no longer post?

(12:35 PM) AEN: away or busy?

(12:35 PM) John: most ppl just see the mind as invisible agent.

(12:35 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:35 PM) John: lol...away so affect ur rating?

(12:35 PM) AEN: eh btw longchen today pm me, after i pm him some dzogchen links

(12:35 PM) John:  

(12:35 PM) AEN:


Thanks for the link.


For the time being, i think i will stay clear of esoteric practices. Stabilizing in presence is more important. Smile


Actually, realising that 'sense of self is not the doer' will lead one into a state of going with the flow. This going with the flow will lead one into the present moment. However, to be in it most of the time is not easy and takes much courage especially under stressful condition. Under stressful condition thinking mind takes over completely and see the matter at hand as being very important...grasping.


will have a long way to go before stabilizing in presence more fully. This itself is the Dzogchen practice of trekchod.


regards


simpo

(12:35 PM) AEN: no la just wondering

(12:35 PM) AEN: hehe

(12:36 PM) AEN: not too concerned about ratings la.. EH this month i tink will high rating but very troublesome, all the atheist attacking their forum

(12:36 PM) AEN: lol

(12:37 PM) John: lol

(12:37 PM) John: where did u get the simpo reply

(12:38 PM) AEN: by PM

(12:38 PM) John: ic...u wrote to him in pm?

(12:38 PM) John: regarding bob?

(12:38 PM) John: lol

(12:38 PM) AEN: no no

(12:38 PM) AEN: regarding namkhai norbu's internet transmission of dzogchen

(12:38 PM) AEN: i gave him some links

(12:39 PM) John: ic.  

(12:40 PM) John: why Dzogchen practice, what he experience is already Dzogchen.

(12:40 PM) John: There is nothing else.

(12:40 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:41 PM) John: yeah...but he knows

(12:41 PM) John: will have a long way to go before stabilizing in presence more fully. This itself is the Dzogchen practice of trekchod.

(12:41 PM) AEN: hehe

(12:41 PM) AEN: icic

(12:43 PM) John: the complete losing of the self is very important, the imageless when clear will lead to the next stage.  

(12:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:46 PM) AEN: actually they're wrong to say pratyekabuddha is only The Apparent within the Real rite?

(12:46 PM) AEN: lol

(12:46 PM) John: yes yes yes...very good.  

(12:46 PM) AEN: haha

(12:46 PM) John: this is what i want to say.  

(12:46 PM) John: under estimate the pratyeka buddha.  

(12:46 PM) John: lol

(12:46 PM) AEN: lol

(12:47 PM) AEN: so u going to comment in ur post?

(12:47 PM) John: nope...

(12:48 PM) John: if pratyeka buddha is at the first stage, they know not a single trace of nirvana.  

(12:49 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:49 PM) AEN: icic

(12:50 PM) AEN: i tink their definition of pratyekabuddha is probably 'mystics who never heard the buddha'

(12:50 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:51 PM) John: possible...but the term arhats and pratyekabuddha....i think the e-book, the forest monk that cry also know the importance of anatta (comments by Soh: more on One Mind and nondual, not yet anatta)

(12:51 PM) John: remember he has been pondering why his master said "apparent in the real" is a great danger?

(12:51 PM) AEN: hmm theravada the anatta is very important isnt it?

(12:51 PM) AEN: oic yea

(12:51 PM) AEN: i remember

(12:52 PM) John: all ppl that has true experience and undergone that stage knows its danger and therefore refuse to tok about 'self'

(12:52 PM) AEN: oic

(12:52 PM) John: so no-self and emptiness

(12:52 PM) AEN: icic

(12:52 PM) John: i do not want to tok about One Mind.

(12:52 PM) AEN: one mind = self?

(12:53 PM) John: no...but mistaken to be so.

(12:53 PM) AEN: icic

(12:53 PM) John: there is no attributes that is self like

(12:53 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:53 PM) John: why do we call it self?

(12:53 PM) John: because of its luminosity?

(12:53 PM) John: what about the emptiness nature?

(12:53 PM) John: blind to the emptiness nature, we grasped and hold on to views

(12:54 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:56 PM) John: got to go.  

(12:57 PM) AEN: ok cya



Session Start: Monday, August 07, 2006

(5:33 PM) John: There is a chapter in the "A New Earth" where Eckhart Tolle mentioned about, touching a cup or anything, be without thoughts and not naming anything, then senses it...did u  
read about that?

(5:37 PM) John: i read in borders the other day.
(5:37 PM) AEN: o icic
(5:37 PM) AEN: y wat about tat
(5:38 PM) John: That to me is a really important chapter. :)
(5:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:38 PM) John: the description is pretty good...
(5:38 PM) AEN: icic
(5:41 PM) John: http://www.plotinus.com/ego_subjectivity.htm
(5:41 PM) AEN: eh how u got that plotinus link??
(5:41 PM) John: bob and dianah i think participated in this forum.
(5:41 PM) AEN: oh yes
(5:41 PM) John: i think.
(5:41 PM) AEN: simpo sent u?
(5:41 PM) John: nope
(5:41 PM) AEN: yes its link to this website
(5:41 PM) AEN: but i wonder where the forum is
(5:41 PM) John: it is about pure subjectivity and no-self
(5:41 PM) AEN: oh then how u found that website
(5:42 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:42 PM) John: vedanta and pure subjectivity is pretty close to buddhism.
(5:42 PM) John: read about it...but hehhe...just keep to urself....it is very close to what i told longchen
(5:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:43 PM) John: however the explanation isn't clear due to the clarity of experience is still not thorough.
(5:43 PM) AEN: icic
(5:43 PM) AEN: who do u tink wrote this
(5:43 PM) John: a lady...like the mentor of dianah like that. :)
(5:43 PM) AEN: oic
(5:43 PM) AEN: dianah got mentor?
(5:44 PM) John: yeah....but this lady that is the owner of the website has a master that is a mystic and a philosopher...she intro about him.
(5:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:45 PM) John: read it, quite good. :)
(5:45 PM) AEN: ok
(5:45 PM) John: and tell me how to go deeper into explaining no-self.
(5:45 PM) John: anyway ur exams coming right?
(5:45 PM) AEN: in a month
(5:47 PM) John: it is quite good...but the key lies in the 'real within the apparent'.  Though the experience is there, still in hoover around the no-self and AMness.  Unable to break  
through.
(5:47 PM) John: it must be stabilize by touching the real within the apparent.
(5:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:48 PM) John: Consciousness must not be realised as a 'thought and mental' process
(5:48 PM) AEN: icic
(5:51 PM) John: It is as real as everything that is experienced.
(5:51 PM) John: nothing cannot be more real than it.
(5:51 PM) John: this realness must be experienced.
(5:52 PM) John: that is, must be in form and formless, visible and invisible aspects of everything.
(5:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:58 PM) John: when ppl tok about pure subjectivity, it is easy to assume that they are toking about the 'conceptual' layer.  This is the problem.
(5:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:59 PM) AEN: wat u mean talking about conceptual layer
(5:59 PM) John: means symbolic layer.
(5:59 PM) John: using thoughts and images
(6:00 PM) AEN: pure subjectivity as they describe is beyond conceptual/symbolic layer isnt it?
(6:01 PM) John: yes
(6:01 PM) John: Shen Hui a Zen Master says: “It is the absence of the absence of subject and object as phenomena that is the ultimate Truth that awakens.” And Ramesh Balsekar continues by 
adding: “there is only a subjective happening, never an action done by any entity.”
(6:01 PM) John: this is really good...
(6:01 PM) AEN: oic
(6:02 PM) John: longchen will now hoover at this level.  Hopefully he can pass this stage 3 yrs later.
(6:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:02 PM) AEN: next stage is wat
(6:03 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(6:03 PM) John: i wrote to him to focus on the realness of the phenomenal world
(6:03 PM) AEN: oic
(6:03 PM) John: emptiness is a raft...
(6:04 PM) John: it is to give and point us a direction to intuitively understand the most puzzling and ungraspable nature of consciousness
(6:05 PM) John: without going through this level of understanding, consciousness that is understood still remain in the form of "AMness".  A transcendental experience clouded with karmic  
'self' propensities.
(6:05 PM) John: there is no true understanding.
(6:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:05 PM) AEN: is longchen still at the 'amness' stage
(6:05 PM) John: actually there is nothing wrong with "AMness"
(6:06 PM) John: a mystic can treat what Buddha taught as the ultimate experience of "AMness"
(6:06 PM) John: it just transformed to Thusness.
(6:06 PM) John: hehehe
(6:06 PM) AEN: oic.. haha
(6:09 PM) John: if longchen can stabilize in 3 yrs time, he will be able to enter incredible bliss at will.
(6:09 PM) AEN: wat incredible bliss
(6:10 PM) John: beyond description
(6:10 PM) AEN: oic
(6:10 PM) John: not a form of mundane samadhi
(6:10 PM) AEN: icic
(6:10 PM) John: i have already wrote to him...told him not to be despaired. :)
(6:11 PM) AEN: despaired by what
(6:12 PM) John: because he will have to struggle with the conceptual layer for now and when he go deeper, he will not understand what is he going to experience
 (6:12 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
i feel sad again .
AEN says:
oic why
Leonard says:
because of life ...
AEN says:
what happen
Leonard says:
i wonder if it is my karma to be born so poor....and not rising .
AEN says:
it is by karma but nothing is fixed
Leonard says:
i tried to do more good deeds - but everything is still quite bad.
Leonard says:
i tried to take things easy but still am in a very sad state.
AEN says:
oic..
Leonard says:
how about u ?
AEN says:
but contentment is the greatest wealth.. u can learn from the monks..
Leonard says:
i feel i am in a non-compassion state ...
AEN says:
oic
Leonard says:
no compassion for me resides in this world...
(6:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:12 PM) AEN: actually wat u mean by struggle with conceptual layer
(6:13 PM) John: it is difficult to explain to u now...after ur exams.
(6:13 PM) AEN: haha ok
(6:14 PM) John: compassion is for the herds, understand u just simply exist.  That is enough for now.
(6:15 PM) AEN: icic
(6:15 PM) John: tell him that. :)
(6:15 PM) AEN: ok
(6:15 PM) John: rest his mind first....this is his current stage.
(6:15 PM) AEN: icic
(6:16 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
u know what ... i somehow think its all a lie ...isnt it ? Sleep is best isnt it ?
(6:16 PM) AEN: lol
(6:16 PM) John: lol...then sleep!
(6:16 PM) AEN: ok haha
(6:17 PM) John: don't laugh but know the danger of not having a qualified master, this can be the case.
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic.. as in become like him
(6:17 PM) AEN: ?
(6:17 PM) John: yeah
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic
(6:17 PM) AEN: then u leh? lol
(6:18 PM) AEN: as in got like that in the past?
(6:18 PM) John: lol...i have go beyond that. :)
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic
(6:18 PM) John: gone
(6:18 PM) John: last time not exactly....i have some guidance
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:19 PM) John: but as I progress, i know it is difficult. :)
(6:19 PM) John: initially it doesn't matter really, whether u r hinduism, buddhism or taoism.
(6:19 PM) John: but until a certain level, it is really important.
(6:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:19 PM) AEN: important to ?
(6:20 PM) John: to go into buddhism to understand its teaching
(6:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:26 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
life is terribly depressive when u are poor and weak .
(6:29 PM) John: socially conditioned....so we must be able enough to satisfy the physiological needs first.
(6:31 PM) AEN: ok
(6:37 PM) John: when is ur ambition?
(6:39 PM) AEN: u mean what
(6:40 PM) AEN: not exactly sure. probably IT line. hehe
(6:40 PM) John: hah?
(6:40 PM) John: lol
(6:40 PM) AEN: i mean
(6:40 PM) John: very tough...
(6:40 PM) AEN: u mean, what is ur ambition
(6:40 PM) John: yes
(6:40 PM) AEN: icic
(6:40 PM) AEN: how come v tough
(6:42 PM) John: by the time you come out, it will be tough. :)
(6:42 PM) John: for me it is ok..coz i am sort of quite ok now.
(6:42 PM) John: not so much into technology
(6:43 PM) John: does ur family know that u r so into buddhism?
(6:44 PM) AEN: dunno
(6:44 PM) AEN: lol
(6:44 PM) AEN: shld b
(6:44 PM) AEN: be
(6:44 PM) John: lol
(6:44 PM) John: how is ur result?
(6:44 PM) AEN: exams?
(6:45 PM) John: hmm....academic achievement
(6:45 PM) AEN: not so gd for mid year
(6:45 PM) John: lol...kok ur head....
(6:45 PM) AEN: lol
(6:46 PM) John: just go for the basic needs and do not deviate from dharma. :)
(6:46 PM) John: don't waste this life.
(6:46 PM) AEN: ok
(6:46 PM) AEN: basic needs?
(6:46 PM) AEN: as in?
(6:47 PM) John: means no need to go for multimillion dollars strife. :P
(6:47 PM) AEN: hahaha
(6:47 PM) AEN: ok
(6:47 PM) John: go for few thousands per month can liao.
(6:47 PM) AEN: icic
(6:49 PM) John: earthing82 is not a theravadin right?
(6:49 PM) John: earthing82 is now a theravadin right?
(6:49 PM) AEN: yea
(6:49 PM) AEN: u know he used to be from ren cheng?
(6:49 PM) AEN: brb
(6:54 PM) AEN: back
(6:55 PM) AEN: earthling82 is now more to theravadin but i tink open to all traditions
(6:55 PM) AEN: have u read the thread where he commented about ren cheng
(6:55 PM) John: nope
(6:55 PM) AEN: actually he left ren cheng bcos of certain misunderstandings with the guy who wrote the essay i sent u
(6:55 PM) AEN: icic
(6:55 PM) John: ic
(6:56 PM) John: misunderstanding then leave?
(6:56 PM) AEN: and maybe some other issues not too sure
(6:56 PM) John: ic
(6:56 PM) AEN: but theres alot of misunderstanding between them
(6:57 PM) John: ic
(6:57 PM) John: not to be too involved in such activities.
(6:57 PM) AEN: but he's not from my side.. so i also dunno much.
(6:57 PM) AEN: kk
(6:57 PM) John: how much sites are there in ren cheng?
(6:58 PM) AEN: mainly 3, but i tink 5 centers... one is the nuns side, the other is li zhu lao shi side (my teacher), and the other is another english dharma teacher's side
(6:58 PM) AEN: (the latter 2 are lay teacherS)
(6:58 PM) John: ic...appointed by ur shi fu?
(6:58 PM) AEN: ya
(6:59 PM) John: when ur shi fu passed away?
(6:59 PM) AEN: 1996
(6:59 PM) John: oh...
(6:59 PM) John: in samsara, everything is going through a process of disintegration.
(7:00 PM) AEN: i heard he intended to die at 92, but bcos of so much problems he had to 'take on' certain karma from his disciples.. he died at 78. anyway 10th anniversary taking place a month later but i tink i cant attend.. exams
(7:00 PM) John: ic.
(7:01 PM) John: how do u know whether dharma is the correct path or not?
(7:01 PM) AEN: wat do u mean
(7:01 PM) AEN: oh
(7:01 PM) AEN: hmm..
(7:01 PM) AEN: i tink the only sure way is through own experience
(7:01 PM) AEN: ?
(7:01 PM) John: :)
(7:01 PM) John: lol
(7:02 PM) John: first take faith...then practice with authentication.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic
(7:03 PM) John: actually it is important to experience the "I AMness"
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:04 PM) John: i find that people having such experiences have more profound understanding of the teaching of Buddha if they are able to humble themselves down.
(7:04 PM) AEN: oic
(7:04 PM) John: Because these are the people that are in the best position to tell if they go beyond that stage...
(7:04 PM) John: it is a natural progression.
(7:04 PM) John: and Buddha I would say knows this problem and is one that has gone through similar process.
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:10 PM) AEN: did u talk to truth?
(7:10 PM) John: nope...next month. :)
(7:10 PM) John: why?
(7:10 PM) AEN: orh just wondering.. u said u wld talk to him
(7:10 PM) John: after i settle some of my stuff.
(7:10 PM) John: :)
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic
(7:11 PM) John: just want him to get back to dharma. :)
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic.. u guess he not on path now? lol
(7:11 PM) John: he should be back now....but needs to be stronger. :)
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic
(7:12 PM) John: it would be a waste.
(7:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:23 PM) John: wah...eckhart now become like a world teacher.
(7:23 PM) AEN: haha y?
(7:23 PM) AEN: yea true
(7:24 PM) AEN: his books are v popular... wonder how come
(7:24 PM) AEN: but also nice to read la
(7:25 PM) John: writing from personal experience and very inspirational. :)
(7:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:27 PM) AEN: gtg.. cya
(7:27 PM) John: cya


before that:



Session Start: Wednesday, August 02, 2006

(6:44 PM) John: a sincere monk is mostly better than a lay....progress faster. :)
(6:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:46 PM) John: the site u send me through email is good.
(6:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:46 PM) AEN: wat exactly is good?
(6:46 PM) John: very clear about the stage.
(6:47 PM) John: to me...much better than ven sheng yen description of stages.
(6:47 PM) AEN: oic... how come
(6:47 PM) AEN: sheng yen's description not yet complete?
(6:48 PM) John: that is my opinion only lah...u will have to find it out urself. 
(6:48 PM) John: but the tong san one is very very clear.
(6:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:49 PM) AEN: but anyway wat do u tink of the author of the site? wanderling
(6:49 PM) AEN: u read tong san works b4?
(6:49 PM) John: nope...i mean the one u send me...
(6:49 PM) AEN: oic
(6:50 PM) John: sorry...heheeh....tung shan...
(6:50 PM) AEN: orh kk
(6:51 PM) John: actually 2-5 is a matter of engaging into activity...
(6:52 PM) AEN: oic as in
(6:52 PM) John: whether one engage into activities and take the vow, the enlightenment remains the same.
(6:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:53 PM) AEN: so 1 is already 3rd level presence?
(6:53 PM) AEN: and 2-5 is refining in terms of experience?
(6:53 PM) AEN: or as in engaging into activity
(6:53 PM) John: activity...path is diff
(6:53 PM) AEN: oic
(6:53 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(6:53 PM) AEN: path is diff
(6:54 PM) John: like theravada and mahayana
(6:55 PM) AEN: oh, so u mean the 5 stages is more along mahayana path?
(6:55 PM) AEN: hmm ya true i tink it mentions bodhisattva bhumis
(6:58 PM) John: no one remains the same even for a moment.  After the 2 stage, one will not just remain the same like that even without taking the vow.... still engagement in activities just 
that path is diff.
(6:59 PM) AEN: 2 stage as in tozan's one?
(6:59 PM) John: yeah...
(6:59 PM) AEN: oic
(7:01 PM) John: actually the first stage is like "I AMness"
(7:01 PM) John: until the deepest aspect
(7:01 PM) AEN: yup
(7:01 PM) John: read all my msgs to longchen
(7:02 PM) John: i kept emphasizing the manifestation not the source
(7:02 PM) John: the manifestation is the source, spend not even a moment of thought for the source.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) John: the stage is the real within the apparent
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:03 PM) AEN: eh
(7:04 PM) John: i think i wrote to u about telling longchen to dissolve the self in the incredible realness of the phenomenon world right?
(7:04 PM) AEN: they never write correctly i tink
(7:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: yea
(7:04 PM) AEN: by PM right?
(7:05 PM) John: hm...yeah....i wrote him another pm after he has a glimpse of it.  
(7:05 PM) AEN: oh not sure whether u sent me
(7:05 PM) John: What about the unmanifested is the manifest?
(7:05 PM) John: din send u. :P
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic
(7:05 PM) AEN: manifest is unborn?
(7:05 PM) AEN: all dharmas are unborn
(7:06 PM) John: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
(7:06 PM) John: the last sentence is very important.
(7:06 PM) AEN: o icic
(7:07 PM) John: when is the part i told him about just the happening and spend not even a thought moment for the source?
(7:08 PM) AEN: in the forum?
(7:08 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(7:08 PM) John: yeah
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic
(7:12 PM) John: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be  
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain.
(7:12 PM) John: actually after the 2nd stage...already like that...
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:13 PM) John: therefore i might be looking the hairs of a tortoise
(7:13 PM) John: :P
(7:13 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(7:13 PM) John: this is the 4th stage...ahahah
(7:13 PM) AEN: icic
(7:13 PM) John: i m looking for someone that can write about this. :P
(7:14 PM) AEN: about what
(7:14 PM) AEN: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be  
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain. ?
(7:14 PM) John: actually can't be written lah
(7:14 PM) John: got to meet up.
(7:14 PM) AEN: ?
(7:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:13 PM) AEN: there??
(10:13 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689
(10:13 PM) AEN: bob replied
(10:13 PM) AEN: lol
(10:14 PM) John: :)
(10:15 PM) John: If longchen hasn't gone beyond this stage, then he really has to work hard.  But out of respect...hehehe he might not say anything.
(10:16 PM) AEN: what stage?
(10:16 PM) AEN: might not say anything on what
(10:16 PM) John: what bob has said...
(10:16 PM) AEN: oic
(10:17 PM) John: if he still linger in the thought realm, then quite jaliat liao.
(10:17 PM) AEN: but he isnt rite
(10:17 PM) John: no lah
(10:17 PM) AEN: icic
(10:17 PM) John: but now he will still fall back...coz not stabilize yet
(10:17 PM) AEN: but bob is still in the thought realm
(10:17 PM) AEN: oic
(10:19 PM) John: the website like not that eventful. :P
(10:21 PM) AEN: haha yea
(10:21 PM) AEN: one year ago longchen told me
(10:21 PM) AEN: he and some others actually participate in a secret forum
(10:21 PM) AEN: of enlightened ppl
(10:21 PM) AEN: i tink bob, him, dianah, and others all in that forum
(10:21 PM) AEN: maybe that forum more lively but i dunnu where is it
(10:21 PM) AEN: ol
(10:21 PM) AEN: lol
(10:21 PM) John: :)
(10:22 PM) John: longchen knows what he experience is a lil beyond what bob can tell him now...
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:23 PM) John: anyway he has to stabilize a lil...
(10:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:24 PM) John: stabilization is dependent on one's effort
(10:24 PM) John: and his yuan...
(10:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:25 PM) John: whatever i wrote to him is real for i know the consequences of misleading him at this juncture. :)
(10:26 PM) John: i hope he can treasure it. :)
(10:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) John: by the way, where is the concept when a baby is first born?
(10:35 PM) AEN: concept of ?
(10:35 PM) John: of ur head...when a body is first born, what got concept...:P
(10:35 PM) AEN: a baby is much purer bcos v little concepts, but is still ignorant
(10:35 PM) AEN: haha ya
(11:04 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689
(11:07 PM) John: :)  hehehe....i think out of courtesy. :P
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic
(11:09 PM) John: but i hope he knows the distinction of emptiness before perception and manifestation as a concept. :)
(11:10 PM) John: manifestation is not a form of concept but is the nature of consciousness (that is emptiness) that requires a mind that is before symbols and labels.
(11:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) John: however he needs to stabilize it because he kept falling back to it even after the glimpse. :)
(11:10 PM) John: he will need 3-4 yrs. :)
(11:10 PM) John: 2-3 years
(11:11 PM) John: coz the seed is already inside. :)
(11:11 PM) John: that is why i din write to him. :P
(11:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) AEN: din write to him ?
(11:11 PM) AEN: about?
(11:11 PM) John: this period is important for him to go on his own.
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic
(11:12 PM) John: u notice that i always write to him whenever he has doubt and queries?
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:12 PM) John: in forum as long as he has relevant doubt, i always find time to answer him....
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:13 PM) John: but after the seed is planted....it will have to let it grow itself through his own effort because in such a juncture, it cannot be in the form of words anymore.
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:14 PM) John: when someone ask zen masters what is buddha's nature....its the tile, rocks...
(11:15 PM) AEN: yea
(11:15 PM) John: feel the hardness, jumps...
(11:15 PM) John: it is exactly that
(11:15 PM) John: experience anything...
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) John: everything...
(11:15 PM) AEN: oic

(11:16 PM) John: i reading thich nhat hanh no death, no fear. 
(11:16 PM) AEN: icic u bought the book ?
(11:16 PM) AEN: which books u bought
(11:16 PM) John: quite good...though the expression not that accurate
(11:16 PM) AEN: on what
(11:19 PM) John: on his understanding
(11:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:20 PM) John: but it is not easy for longchen to go beyond the thought level...
(11:20 PM) John: i kept emphasizing this to him...
(11:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:21 PM) John: when the 'self' is gone, there can be no thought.
(11:21 PM) John: in whatever tradition, we have to go beyond that.
(11:22 PM) AEN: oic
(11:23 PM) John: however i also know that bob will answer. :)
(11:23 PM) John: and his answer is so.
(11:23 PM) AEN: haha
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic
(11:23 PM) AEN: lol
(11:23 PM) John: :)
(11:37 PM) John: By the way, there are potentialities and tendencies and by taking thoughts, we actualized it.  Actuality is always known, the source is ever unknown.
(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:39 PM) AEN: wat kind of tendencies
(11:40 PM) John: karma are tendencies, becoming is a form of tendencies, impermanence, emptiness
(11:40 PM) John: if u tell longchen, he will have a glimpse of it. :)
(11:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:41 PM) John: but that will set him into thoughts again which is what i don't want.
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:41 PM) AEN: but he will eventually know la
(11:41 PM) John: yeah. :)
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic
(11:42 PM) John: the seeds should now be strong enough
(11:42 PM) John: he must touch it wherever he is.
(11:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:49 PM) John: See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux. :)
(11:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:50 PM) John: reply to bob. :P
(11:50 PM) John: eheheheh
(11:50 PM) AEN: i reply?
(11:50 PM) AEN: o ok
(11:50 PM) John: but tell him thanks. :)
(11:50 PM) AEN: ok
(11:51 PM) AEN:
Thanks for your reply...

See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux.
(11:52 PM) AEN: like tat
(11:52 PM) John: yes. :)
(11:52 PM) AEN: okie
(12:15 AM) AEN: gtg.. cya
(12:16 AM) John: cya
(12:16 AM) John: :)




Sim Pern ChongAdmin
Wah.. so long..haha. and quite long ago too 😁 The Plotinus website is by Alice, she is a mystic of the Rosicrucian Order. She is Egyptian, if i remembered correct.
I use to participate in their secure forum.. Dianah and Bob were in the forum as well. For a period of time, many years ago I practiced the method given by Dianah.. That was the 'most psychic oriented' period. Some of the experiences are actually very helpful, especially 'going straight' into the Pre-rebirth Realm.
Together, with the Buddhist Stages of Enlightenment, they provided a larger perspective of the workings.
    Soh Wei Yu
    Author
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong Can you elaborate on "Some of the experiences are actually very helpful, especially 'going straight' into the Pre-rebirth Realm"
    You mean remembering past lives?
    Sim Pern ChongAdmin
    Soh Wei Yu It is actually not remembering.. it is being in the dimension 'prior' to additional layers/processes are generated to create the in-between/astral and the physical experience.
    Just an analogy.. it is like, there are rooms within room. When the physical experience/sense room is deconstructed, there is a 'slightly bigger' in-between/astral room which is mainly the grosser mind and emotion. For the pre-rebirth experience, the physical senses are fully suspended, following by the mental/emotional 'in-between/astral'. and then with the '2 rooms' temporarily deconstructed/suspended.. the bigger Pre-rebirth realm is experienced. This realm is simply the result of all the experiences of this 'being'. It is not awakened at the time of the experience.. but it also not just a collection data center too.. it is a causal 'dimension'.
    My opinion is that whatever insight there are, got to actually 'penetrate' and turn the 'understanding' in that dimension.. otherwise the old ways of processing will continue... aka rebirth 😆
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  • Yin LingAdmin
    So Long until when I click “continue reading” it cannot load? Lol
    Soh Wei Yu
    Author
    Admin
    Yin Ling strange.. i can read
  • Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
    Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
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    Yin LingAdmin
    Soh Wei Yu ok thanks!
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