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Sarah Luna
I notice that people who seem to be very highly realised can also have very human perspectives. How does this work?
For example, I see posts that rant about politics on the social media pages of spiritual teachers and other people who describe profound insights into the nature of reality. I met someone recently who has had a number of insightful ‘spiritual experiences’ through self-inquiry and meditation and yet he is passionately anti-vax and talks at length about 5G.
If one can really see that everything is ultimately an illusion and that as individuals we are avatars in a dream; ultimately there is only one consciousness, why do we care about our children let alone politics or vaccines? Is the body-mind wired to think it and it’s environment is real?
Any thoughts would be appreciated, as I have no direct spiritual insights of my own to draw on. Thanks.
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Soh Wei Yu
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John Tan spoke about the dangers of climate change back in 2007.
Sim Pern Chong (first to realize anatta from I AM through conversation with John Tan/Thusness back in 2006/2007):
Reading the news nowadays about global warming and its effects, sets me pondering...
Global warming and Earth changes perhaps are our collective karmas.
I think we must seriously do our part in reducing the effects... like use less aircon, etc. All of us are guilty of it. Embarassed
I forsee a future that may not be as comfortable or luxurious as we wanted to be... as we live the collective karmic effect of humanity's action.
I alway believe that we humans are not that special and are not the centre attraction of this planet. If we don't wake up, nature will sobber us through its brute power. We always think that science and inventions are so all powerful... but we have greatly underestimated the complexity of co-habitating with the rest of the planet.
Sorry for the preaching...
John Tan/Thusness:
Hi Longchen,
I don’t think you are preaching; your message is timely; the weather is getting so erratic. It is quite alarming to realize that at the rate we are consuming the earth resources, it may only last for another few hundred years. It won’t take long for us to destroy our own habitats and that, is just few generation away; although we may not live to see the disastrous, we have to think a little for the future generations. We are abusing the natural systems.
I believe many are not aware of the harm and educations do play a role. Prior to taking environmental science decades back, I had absolutely no idea about the impact and consequences of pollutions. The idea that ‘resources will come to an end’ never existed.
Even with adequate education, developing nations are so helpless due to their poverty. Developed nations lure these nations into commitments. I shall not dwell deeper into it but the rapid disappearance of forests in many parts of the world is what caused the extra half carbon dioxide to be added to the atmosphere. Reducing the CO2 emissions is not just getting rid of CFCs, land use change is a major issue.
Locally, a taxation policy driven towards pro-green policies may help. At present the economic penalties are so small that it hardly drives people away from the demand of CFC sources. Internationally certain sorts of agreements are also necessary for nations to adhere to policies that will slow down greenhouse gases emission. Global warming is an international issue, If China, for example, continues to double their coal consumption every decade, it would do little help even all other countries put in effort.
Lastly we must be careful of futuristic renewable energy. I think very soon the world will turn to nuclear as an alternative source of energy. Is using nuclear is viable solution? I hope we are not replacing “flu with cancer”. I hope we do not replace ecological insecurity with nuclear threat. Neutral
JonLS:
Is global warming really a problem?
Or are we all under the hypnotic illusion of a collective thought called "global warming"?
John Tan/Thusness:
Even the enlightened respects all illusions.
Source: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/07/part-3-of-early-forum-posts-by-thusness_10.html
Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness
Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness
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Soh Wei Yu
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Buddhism does not lead to nihilism (Everything does not exists), emptiness should not be mistaken as that. In fact if you are into total exertion then you should become more aware of the interconnection and seamlessness with the entire environment, that should make you more environmentally aware instead of less.
And as for vaccine, I am pro vaccine for a very simple and pragmatic reason: the net benefits of vaccine in terms of saving and protecting life vastly outweighs its cons and the dangers from getting covid.
From a Buddhist perspective, human life is one of the most precious and rare things, and we should protect it, make our life as long and healthy as possible not because for personal enjoyment but because it is the vessel which we can use to practice the dharma and attain liberation, full awakening, and help others awaken. Our views on vaccines should not be political but based on science and facts.
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Soh Wei Yu
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"ultimately there is only one consciousness"
This is not the view post anatta realisation. More about it in http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/the-tendency-to-extrapolate-universal.html and the related posts
The Tendency to Extrapolate a Universal Consciousness
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Tendency to Extrapolate a Universal Consciousness
The Tendency to Extrapolate a Universal Consciousness
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Sarah Luna
Author
Soh, this post is brilliant. Thanks!
You wrote: “It is important to refine the understanding of Presence through the four aspects: impersonality, degree of luminosity, dissolving the need to re-confirm and understanding why it is unnecessary, and effortlessness.”
Is the luminosity the light that you mention is present in all religions in the piece of writing that Angelo posted?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna Yes, but in this particular context the degree of luminosity is related to the second factor of the four maturing aspects of I AM (or the aspects one should focus post the I AM realization): http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/four-aspects-of-i-am.html
Four Aspects of I AM
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Four Aspects of I AM
Four Aspects of I AM
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Soh Wei Yu
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Sarah Luna Also this article may interest you on the AtR term 'luminosity': http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/02/the-transient-universe-has-heart.html
The Transient Universe has a Heart
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Transient Universe has a Heart
The Transient Universe has a Heart
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Soh Wei Yu
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As a sidenote, once John Tan told me something like, “Take your medicines when you're sick. Don't become an idealist." I agree. I am not into the sort of subjective idealism that thinks you should just mentally will yourself to heal without any medicin… See more
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
This is a good description of total exertion from a nature and ecological standpoint: https://www.facebook.com/EmpathyMedia/videos/1508128232558588/?__cft__[0]=AZX1lRkMSf-bqeyinR4Uerd6H4-wTmT7VWKC-QbV7V_BzH8E1k2DQLHWXDVNBS0mchHW8us-Hxo015tT6jhhe-jPL4aIYOrWFUCdHo_Qd9XHhuSLyRb3AFbCKXN8aAjyMYUcf9WFNSlO4SFyEnXfaxcx3tiy753YmyWX8OF1A4RsGw&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-y-R
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Sarah Luna
Author
Soh, beautiful. I would like to experience the world in this way.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
“To study Buddhism, it is first necessary to clarify cause and effect. If one ignores cause and effect one will develop false views and sever the roots of goodness. The principle of cause and effect is very clear and there is no “I” in it: those who create evil will fall and those who practice good will rise, without a hairsbreadth of disparity between the two. If cause and effect had perished and ceased to be, then the buddhas would not have appeared in the world, the founding teacher would not have come from the West, and sentient beings would never have met the Buddha and heard the Dharma. People like Confucius or Lao-tse do not propound the principle of cause and effect. Only the buddhas and Zen ancestors have made this clear.” – A quote of Zen Master Dogen in Yamada, Kōun. Zen: The Authentic Gate (p. 149). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.”
“To summarize, the principle of cause and effect is quite clear, and it is totally impersonal: those who fabricate evil will fall into a lower state, whereas those who practice good will rise to a higher state, and without the slightest disparity. If cause and effect had become null and void, Buddhas would never have appeared in the world and our Ancestral Master would not have come from the West. In short, it would be impossible for human beings to encounter a Buddha and hear the Dharma. The fundamental principle of cause and effect was not clear to Confucius or Lao-tzu. It has only been clarified and Transmitted by Buddha after Buddha and by Ancestor after Ancestor. Because the good fortune of those who are seeking to learn in these degenerate days of the Dharma is scant, they do not encounter a genuine Master or hear the authentic Dharma, and so they are not clear about cause and effect. If you deny causality as a result of this error, you will experience excessive misfortune, since you would be as ignorant as an ox or a horse. Even if you have not committed any evil act other than denying cause and effect, the poison of this view will immediately be terrible. Therefore, if you who are exploring the Matter through your training with a Master have put your heart that seeks awakening as the first and foremost matter, and therefore wish to repay the vast benevolence of the Buddhas and the Ancestors, you should swiftly clarify what causality really is.” - Zen Master Dogen, https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Shobogenzo/088jinshiInga.pdf
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Sarah Luna
Author
Soh, what is ‘evil’ and what is ‘good’?
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna Strictly speaking in Buddhism we don't use the words evil and good, but rather wholesome (kusala) and unwholesome (akusala), or, virtuous and nonvirtuous.
“Buddhism accounts for ethics in the context of the ten natural nonvirtues, which it considers the core frame around which all secular and religious morals and ethics are constructed.
Most of these morals and ethics involve various interpretations of the constraints upon persons these ten natural nonvirtues impose upon our personal conduct.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2020
The Buddha taught:
“The Wholesome and the Unwholesome
3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.
4. "And what, friends, is the unwholesome, what is the root of the unwholesome, what is the wholesome, what is the root of the wholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.
5. "And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.
6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome.
7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.
8. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."” - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html
Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View
ACCESSTOINSIGHT.ORG
Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View
Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View
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Sarah Luna
Author
From my unenlightened perspective, cause and effect seem pretty obvious. I once heard it described as ‘contingency’, which I found useful, as cause and effect sound very linear in terms of language.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Sarah Luna
On a coarse level it seems obvious for most people.
But the subtlety and depths of dependent origination is very deep. It is a core insight of Buddha.
Partial excerpt from
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN15.html
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, the Kurus have a town named Kammāsadhamma. There Ven. Ānanda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: “It’s amazing, lord, it’s astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be.”
(The Buddha:) “Don’t say that, Ānanda. Don’t say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It’s because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations.
DN 15 Mahā Nidāna Sutta | The Great Causes Discourse
DHAMMATALKS.ORG
DN 15 Mahā Nidāna Sutta | The Great Causes Discourse
DN 15 Mahā Nidāna Sutta | The Great Causes Discourse
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Soh Wei Yu
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Sarah Luna John wrote in 2014, "Be it Buddha himself, Nagarjuna or Tsongkhapa, none [of them] never got overwhelmed and amazed with the profundity of dependent origination. It is just that we do not have the wisdom to penetrate enough depth of it." and "Actually if you do not see Dependent Origination, you do not see Buddhism [i.e. the essence of Buddhadharma]. Anatta is just the beginning."
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Sarah Luna
Author
I liked the story about the fox. So, was the problem that although the Abbot was highly realised, his ego got in the way? Or was he just a bit deluded?
I do notice an awful lot of ego in the awakening arena….primarily in men. But this could be just my perception.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna He is falling into nihilism despite a little bit of attainment or insight, basically negating or denying cause and effect.
Excerpt from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_fox_koan
The kōan
Main case
Tanahashi gives the following rendering of the koan:[1]
Every time Baizhang, Zen Master Dahui, gave a dharma talk, a certain old man would come to listen. He usually left after the talk, but one day he remained. Baizhang asked, "Who is there?"
The man said, "I am not actually a human being. I lived and taught on this mountain at the time of Kashyapa Buddha. One day a student asked me, 'Does a person who practices with great devotion still fall into cause and effect?' I said to him, 'No, such a person doesn't.' Because I said this I was reborn as a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes. Reverend master, please say a turning word for me and free me from this wild fox body." Then he asked Baizhang, "Does a person who practices with great devotion still fall into cause and effect?"
Baizhang said, "Don't ignore cause and effect."
Immediately the man had great realization. Bowing, he said, "I am now liberated from the body of a wild fox. I will stay in the mountain behind the monastery. Master, could you perform the usual services for a deceased monk for me?"
Baizhang asked the head of the monks' hall to inform the assembly that funeral services for a monk would be held after the midday meal. The monks asked one another, "What's going on? Everyone is well; there is no one sick in the Nirvana Hall." After their meal, Baizhang led the assembly to a large rock behind the monastery and showed them a dead fox at the rock's base. Following the customary procedure, they cremated the body.
That evening during his lecture in the dharma hall Baizhang talked about what had happened that day. Huangbo asked him, "A teacher of old gave a wrong answer and became a wild fox for five hundred lifetimes. What if he hadn't given a wrong answer?"
Baizhang said, "Come closer and I will tell you." Huangbo went closer and slapped Baizhang's face. Laughing, Baizhang clapped his hands and said, "I thought it was only barbarians who had unusual beards. But you too have an unusual beard!"[1][a]
Wumen's commentary and poem
Shibayama gives the following translation of Wumen's commentary and verse:
"Not falling into causation." Why was he turned into a fox? "Not ignoring causation." Why was he released from the fox body? If you have an eye to see through this, then you will know that the former head of the monastery did enjoy his five hundred happy blessed lives as a fox.[5]
Not falling, not ignoring:
Odd and even are on one die.
Not ignoring, not falling:
Hundreds and thousands of regrets![5]
Wild fox koan - Wikipedia
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
Wild fox koan - Wikipedia
Wild fox koan - Wikipedia
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Sarah Luna
Author
So someone can be very highly realised and still have some ideas and views that are odd or controversial? So I wouldn’t necessarily take an awakened person’s advice on my mortgage repayments, for example?
I had equated enlightenment with wisdom…
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna Unless you are an omniscient Buddha (and it is a point of contention whether the Buddha literally knows everything or not, such as how to build a rocket ship, or simply is omniscient as to the nature of all dharmas and the realms of existences and so on), you cannot possibly know everything in the world, such as how to build a rocket ship to reach planet Jupiter.
But a truly and deeply awakened person will be free of the causes (ignorance, craving, aggression/anger, delusion, egoity, and so on) that leads to unwholesome actions like lying. Even those awakened to the level of stream entry will have reduced those mental afflictions to a very large extent, let alone an arahant or an eighth bhumi bodhisattva who have completely eliminated all traces of mental afflictions.
I can tell you that I am awakened, but I know next to nothing about giving people advice for mortgage repayment. I will not lie to you that I am an expert on mortgage repayment.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna Whereas John Tan is a financial and business consultant with a very very large net worth which I shall not disclose, and is an expert on all matters related to finance and business, my knowledge in these areas are basically nothing. Of course this does not mean John Tan is an expert in all other fields, such as making fine art and paintings (he might be an expert in that too but I am not sure).
The only advise on finance I can give is what the Buddha taught: https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com/.../the-buddhas.../
"
The Buddha’s advice to lay people like us if we want to look after our families – is to accumulate wealth – then family and household life can follow:
The wise endowed with virtue Shine forth like a burning fire.
Gathering wealth as bees do honey and heaping it up like an ant hill. Once wealth is accumulated, family and household life may follow.
By dividing wealth into four parts, True friendships are bound;
One part should be enjoyed;
Two parts invested in business;
And the fourth set aside Against future misfortunes.
So, in the Sigalovada Sutta (which has lots of good advice for lay followers), the Buddha said – divide your pay (after tax) into 4 parts:
25% – 1 Part to be enjoyed and used however you want
50% – 2 Parts to be invested in business
25% – 1 Part to be saved for emergencies
Obviously you don’t have to have exactly these percentages – but it gives you a rough idea cos each part can be a smaller part of a bigger part according to your personal circumstances."
The Buddha’s guidelines on how to look after your money
ESSENCEOFBUDDHISM.WORDPRESS.COM
The Buddha’s guidelines on how to look after your money
The Buddha’s guidelines on how to look after your money
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Sarah Luna
Author
Soh, it’s great that John Tan wasn’t distracted by that huge fortune he has. He sounds like an interesting man. He is still alive?
So if someone who has had some realisations gives me advice that isn’t relevant to awakening I should just ignore it, unless they happen to be an expert in the field….
Can people’s ideas get in the way of further development in their awakening? I suppose if nothing else, being obsessed about politics or vaccines or whatever can be distracting…
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"Soh, it’s great that John Tan wasn’t distracted by that huge fortune he has. He sounds like an interesting man. He is still alive?"
He is alive but he is reclusive. He is not attached to worldly life even though he has a huge fortune and a family. He said he never saw conventional life as so important other than responsibilities, so he spends more hours on practice now. He meditates at least 2 hours a day in addition to regularly practicing yoga and so on. Sometimes he meditates much more than that when he does self retreats.
"So if someone who has had some realisations gives me advice that isn’t relevant to awakening I should just ignore it, unless they happen to be an expert in the field…."
That's fair to say. You do not need to ignore it, you can consider it, but you still need to exercise your own discernment and research.
"Can people’s ideas get in the way of further development in their awakening? I suppose if nothing else, being obsessed about politics or vaccines or whatever can be distracting…"
Only if there is grasping. There is nothing wrong with having opinions, especially when it is based on facts. For example, my pro vaccine stance is backed by scientific evidence on the relative safety and efficacy of vaccines, it is in my opinion in the best interest of everyone to get vaccinated. But grasping on an anti vaccine stance seems to imply some sort of ignorance or grasping by the person even when such stance goes against scientific consensus and would be harmful to the person and those that gets influenced by the person holding the view. It could also just be plain ignorance if the person is gullible enough to buy into fake news and just poor sources of (mis)information.
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Yin Ling
Admin
Just saw this post. Just wanted to second Soh’s opinion.
Awakening just means they have the knowledge of true nature.
Not the “knowledge” of the functionality of conventional human life. It’s very different.
Teacher that pretends to know what they don’t are dangerous.
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Sarah Luna
Author
Yin, thanks. Ah yes, it seems obvious!
And yet I’m listening to Rupert Spira on a live zoom call now, giving people advice on how to do their jobs and behave in their relationships. And this seems reasonable to me, given that these people are asking him about how to behave as if they are awakened.
But if they were to ask him which politician to vote for or if they should take a vaccine, and he were to give them a concrete answer, that wouldn’t feel right.
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Yin Ling
Admin
Sarah Luna yup. I used to think like that too, awakened ones know what best to do.
Actually imo I think they don’t really. They just can see things in a more “whole” or holistic way rather than self based and not allowed their defilements to step in, so there is less bias, so they sort of know what is “best” karmically.
Worldly situation is another ballgame lol.
I always feel damn awkward when someone ask a monastic .. how to bring up children? How to maintain a relationship? How to do a job well? How to not anger ur boss? 🤣
I mean.. what do they have reference on to guide u?!! 🤦🏻♀️
Especially on vaccines. There’s so many ppl who ask spiritual persons on vaccine when there are scientists around. And it’s even crazier when a person who clearly don’t understand anything about vaccine tells other ppl not to take because of xyz. They don’t even understand basic immunology and don’t have the humility to admit that they don’t know. That happened so much and is so so so so dangerous.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna I fully agree with Yin Ling. As for spiritual teachers giving advice on jobs and relationships, it is not to say they are not without their value. Sometimes they can offer good advise. Sometimes not. You still have to discern for yourself. A non-contracted way of functioning in daily life, jobs and relationships, that is to say, how you behave in an non-dually engaged intimacy with work, with your job, with your loved ones, and yet non-attached, that is what spiritual teachers should hopefully guide people into. Non-dual, fully engaged, yet liberated, without any sense of self/Self and without any grasping.
For example, just to pick one quote from Thich Nhat Hanh, "'You must love in such a way that the person you love feels free.'"
A lot of wisdom there. In many ways, a non-liberative way of functioning in relationships can spoil the relationship. Clinginess, controlling and demanding, etc, these are not attractive traits that keep your relationship stable. But there are so many other factors involved other than just these.
Therefore, if you need professional counseling for your marriage for example, you should still find a professional marriage counsellor rather than find Thich Nhat Hanh or Rupert Spira. Even if the wisdom of the latter can be of value in relationships, they are not the be all and end all experts on marriage and relationships. A counsellor with 10 or 20 years of experience saving marriages may be your best bet than the monk or nun at a monastery, because they truly have seen it all, they have all the experience helping people out with those specific set of issues.
Thich Nhat Hanh can teach you how to be liberated, how to be fully anatta and total exertion even when doing your job, and through that you may directly or indirectly become better at doing your job, but he may not be able to tell you the details of what it takes for you to be promoted in your career (except as general dharmic advise), or what is the career best suited for you, etc. You may need to find a job counsellor.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Destin Ntukogu Usually there is attachment, but it can also be out of compassion. Buddha was also politically active in a limited way by counseling kings, and so on. The second most famous Buddhist master in modern times (right after the Dalai Lama), Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh was well known for being politically active by advocating anti vietnam war, etc. He started a movement called Engaged Buddhism, which combined meditation and anti-war work. Both Buddha and Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh are truly awakened beings, there is no doubt in my mind that even when engaged in such activities they are totally liberated, totally anatta, totally no-mind.
Liberation is not about avoiding activities or the world. But in the midst of activities, there must be no grasping, and action arise spontaneously out of compassion rather than self grasping.
Acarya Malcolm Smith: "Well, in those past lives, the Buddha was not a bhikṣu, etc. When the Buddha counseled kings, it was usually to not invade someone else. 🙂"
Malcolm also said: "Buddhists have been engaged in politics since the time of the Buddha. The Buddha himself was consulted concerning politics and rulership. But spiritual bypassing is a trend..."
"One does not have a political position to be involved in politics. If one is giving advice to rulers, that is unavoidably political."
"No, "Spiritual bypassing", a term from psychology, refers very specifically using one's religious practice as an excuse not to deal with the world, warts and all. The term was coined in 1984 by a Buddhist practitioner, the late John Welwood, the director of the East/West Psychology program at the California Institute of Integral Studies.
Here is a good definition for you:
Spirituality is a fundamental dimension of wellness. However, scholars have noted that not all spiritual processes are healthy. One of those processes is spiritual bypass, defined as a defensive psychological posture cultivated by a tendency to privilege spiritual beliefs or experiences over and against psychological needs creating a means of avoiding or bypassing difficult emotions or experiences.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... plications
Politics is difficult. A lot of people use their spiritual beliefs as an excuse for not dealing that difficulty, fleeing the world, rather than dealing with it. For example, the way Buddha dealt the enslavement of the Śākyas. He watched. He did not flee. He observed."
RESEARCHGATE.NET
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404 Page not found
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Destin Ntukogu
Soh Wei Yu oh trust me, i have very strong political beliefs that are actually bolstered by my affinity for buddhism. like i said, i don’t think disinterest precludes action in the world, so i’m not surprised by buddhists like Thich Nhat Hanh’s activism. i also don’t think anyone who’s enlightened wouldn’t have thought about the world deeply. i only think that there comes a point where you realize there’s nothing to fix, nothing that can be fixed, and nothing that has ever been broken. so i don’t despair because of a new war, a new outrage, a new spectacle. my concerns are not directed at transforming social structures, building new economies, new legislation, it’s only individuals.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Destin Ntukogu
Yes. The Buddha has complete dispassion and compassion at the same time, and continue to teach sentient beings tirelessly for 49 years after awakening even if he realised none are truly existent.
Dispassion without compassion is nihilistic and without heart. Compassion without dispassion is just being caught up in samsara, no liberation.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Dispassion as in no clinging, no craving, not as in the opposite of compassion.
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Was reminded of these excerpts also
“When anatta matures, one is fully and completely integrated into whatever arises till there is no difference and no distinction.
When sound arises, fully and completely embraced with sound yet non-attached. Similarly, in life we must be fully engaged yet non-attached” - John Tan/Thusness
“Actually there is no forcing. All the 4 aspects in I AMness are fully expressed in anatta as I told you. If aliveness is everywhere, how is one not to engage… it is a natural [tendency] to explore in [various] arena[s] and enjoy in business, family, spiritual practices... I [am] involve[d] in Finance, business, society, nature, spirituality, yoga...🤣🤣🤣. I don't find it efforting… You just don't have to boast about this and that and be non-dual and open.” - John Tan, 2019
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Personally, I am not politically engaged or active because my own country is very stable, and neither am I interested in influencing the politics of other countries. It might not be so if I lived somewhere else.
Reply2mEdited
Roger Hiduk
This explains it. The difference between stages (growing up) and states ( waking up).
https://youtu.be/8zz95MHLjfo
The Leading Edge Of The Unknown In The Human Being: Ken Wilber
YOUTUBE.COM
The Leading Edge Of The Unknown In The Human Being: Ken Wilber
The Leading Edge Of The Unknown In The Human Being: Ken Wilber
Reply19h
Sarah Luna
Author
Thanks! Will listen.
Reply13h
Cuthbert Syabbalo
I was inquiring on this question and I got an insight saying "If your eye is one, your whole being is full of light, but if not, then darkness still dwells in you."
I would like to share the image of a mirror which is a great symbol in Buddhism. I daresay that the universe and all we are experiencing is a mirror unto ourselves, and when we see variances, then we know it is a signal & message to us that we have not achieved clarity. We should be as clear as possible, with literally no sediments in our water.
When I thought of some people with great insights still grasping onto things like politics, the economy & all that, I realised I was looking at an error in myself in that when I saw, I made judgement that this is good/bad. I harbored an opinion about how an insightful person should be, of which such variance arises from self which doesn't exit. An illusion that births illusions... Interesting!
Reply42m
Roger Hiduk
This explains it. The difference between stages (growing up) and states ( waking up).
https://youtu.be/8zz95MHLjfo
The Leading Edge Of The Unknown In The Human Being: Ken Wilber
YOUTUBE.COM
The Leading Edge Of The Unknown In The Human Being: Ken Wilber
The Leading Edge Of The Unknown In The Human Being: Ken Wilber
Reply1d
Sarah Luna
Author
Thanks! Will listen.
Reply18h
Sarah Luna
Author
Roger, this video is so interesting. Stage 2 is horrific! I’d rather meet someone in stage 1 any day…
Reply2h
Roger Hiduk
Sarah Luna integral theory is worth digging into imo. Interestingly we progress through the stages, so that stage is part of our development too.
Reply2h
Sarah Luna
Author
Roger, growing up with Tibetan Buddhist parents in a school that forced Christianity down my throat ensured that I missed stage 2. I probably spent many years in stage 1 without even having had any awakening experiences though!!
Reply1hEdited
Cuthbert Syabbalo
I was inquiring on this question and I got an insight saying "If your eye is one, your whole being is full of light, but if not, then darkness still dwells in you."
I would like to share the image of a mirror which is a great symbol in Buddhism. I daresay that the universe and all we are experiencing is a mirror unto ourselves, and when we see variances, then we know it is a signal & message to us that we have not achieved clarity. We should be as clear as possible, with literally no sediments in our water.
When I thought of some people with great insights still grasping onto things like politics, the economy & all that, I realised I was looking at an error in myself in that when I saw, I made judgement that this is good/bad. I harbored an opinion about how an insightful person should be, of which such variance arises from self which doesn't exit. An illusion that births illusions... Interesting!
Reply6h
Sarah Luna
Author
Thanks so much for all the responses. My thinking was a bit mixed up when I asked my question. My excuse is that I am probably the least awakened person in this group.
I realise now that my question was twofold:
a) Why do awakened people care about anything in their everyday lives, given that they have firsthand insight into illusory nature of it.
b) Why do some people who have had profound experiences of awakening rant online or face to face to people interested in their spiritual growth and attracted to them for spiritual purposes about their perspectives on topics such as vaccines, 5G, American politics and so on?
Soh helped me to understand that awakening can involve being clearly and maybe even experimentally aware of dependent origination. And so when an awakened person has a reasonable level of emotional maturity, the welfare of others, the suffering of others and so on really matters.
The other comments helped me to understand that awakening experiences in and of themselves don’t make people wise, knowledgeable, psychologically balanced and, most importantly, aware of the limitations of their beliefs and ideas.
Roger posted a really interesting video about the concept of ‘growing up’ and its influence on awakening. In the video, Ken Wilbur describes an interesting example of “…several zen masters, highly respected for the depth of their non-dual enlightenment or waking up…advocating many ideas that are obviously and embarrassingly ethnocentric, prejudiced, and bigoted.”
Reply1hEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna Post anatta (means Stage 5 and 6 of http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss-six... at least) one should be relatively psychologically balanced. It is not clear however if they will be very knowledgeable in non-spiritual subjects. They may have differing and unique opinions on matters, like any one of us. They may also harbor some inaccurate beliefs about mundane matters. However, I do not expect any deeply realised and actualized people to lie or pretend they are experts or knowledgeable about something they don't, however. Their actions will arise in alignment with truth, honesty, sincerity, rather than egotism and negative emotions.
Also as Kyle Dixon wrote about his experience post anatta:
"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.
The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019
“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
Reply14mEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Sarah Luna Awakened people can still be mistaken about relative things. But I believe they will be open to being corrected when presented with facts, will be careful to align themselves with truths rather than hold tightly to unfounded beliefs due to egotism.
I would question and doubt the depth of anyone's awakening if they do not at least have that 'standard' in their conduct. Conduct does reflect one's depth of awakening. I am not an advocate of a deep awakening being possibly divorced from conduct, and neither does John Tan. Conduct that arises due to craving, aggression, delusion and egotism is a sign that the person's awakening is not really that deep.
Reply11mEdited
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
"awakening experiences in and of themselves don’t make people... ...knowledgeable"
This part is correct.
A truly awakened person is spiritually wise, but may not be knowledgeable. They have the prajna wisdom that liberates all sufferings and delusions, which is different from worldly knowledge. They also may not have the sort of 'growing wisdom' that is the mundane life wisdom gained through unique life experiences. A monk for example may not understand what it is like to face a boss at work, or the problems encountered in relationships and so on, unless they used to live a lay person's life for some period of time.
Reply6mEdited
Yin Ling
Admin
Sarah Luna
1) illusoriness doesn’t take away karma, this ppl don’t understand properly.
Even if I see illusoriness, if my patient is having depression, and if I ignore it and not help her, i am just not being wise, I’m stupid. We don’t ignore causality, we see it more clearly actually, and usualy properly awakened ones, those who truly understand , they are more compassionate, respectful, their conduct is tight, and they doesn’t harm unnecessarily.
If u see those who claim awakening and go out of their way to criticise others, take everything personally, think they are so clever and try to teach everyone to follow them 😂 stay away 😂. They r not awakened however they want to talk philosophy.
2) perspectives are okay, one can do anything they like, but strong grasping of “I am right u r 100% wrong” that kind of ideology smells fishy to me.
I find awakening gives one a taste of a very very open, boundless, gentle, soft, malleable experiential feeling moment to moment, dream like, everything is okay, acceptable and very soft and compassionate. Everything tinge with beauty and bliss. One is happy. It calms the heart and make one wants to help, never to harm. Very natural.
So when I meet with someone who doesn’t have those qualities, or are hard, belligerent, provocative, rude, haughty… I am not sure, what r they actually experiencing when they say awakening?
That’s how I see it 🙂
Reply11m
