Also see:

Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
Four Foundations of Mindfulness: The Direct Path to Liberation
Vipassana
Mindfulness as Remembrance
Thusness's Vipassana


Session Start: Monday, August 18, 2008

(2:15 PM) AEN: yesterday i meditated very late at midnight... i was already v tired that time and eyes like closing and i tot when i meditate i wld just fall asleep, but strangely when i meditate my mind become like very bright and aware... become totally awake. then i dun feel tired anymore. and i also feel i could drop away everything at that moment
(3:34 PM) AEN: what do u tink of Element's explanation of mindfulness and awareness, http://www.buddhachat.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9891&page=6
(3:34 PM) AEN: Yesterday, 06:24 PM
(11:41 AM) Thusness: The experience is good but as a lay, it is not advisable to do that.  This is to prevent us from upsetting our biological clock.  I told you try not to practice awareness presence during sleeping hours, practice dropping instead (or dropping into total openness).
(11:41 AM) Thusness: Good exchange between element and you.  Will talk to u tonight as there are several key points u need to take note.
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:56 AM) AEN: btw i think i didnt try to be aware that time, i think it came quite naturally and by surprise
(11:57 AM) AEN: oh ya and when i practice dropping gradually theres this sensation of letting go into total openness, feels like i become disappearing
(7:19 PM) Thusness: 'I' disappearing as in what sense?
(7:22 PM) AEN: like into nothingness lor
(7:23 PM) Thusness: no....
(7:23 PM) Thusness: i go washroom first.
(7:23 PM) AEN: ok
(7:24 PM) AEN: a bit like fading into open space? no sense of me being there... until i notice it
(7:26 PM) AEN: its different from the initial experience of presence cos theres still a sense of center in it, no thought but feels centered. but later is more like no center
(7:28 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Idle
(7:28 PM) AEN: its like nothingness yet is different from sleep?
(7:31 PM) Thusness has changed his/her status to Online
(7:31 PM) Thusness: all the 6 stages are actually telling u what is the true nature of our pristine awareness.
(7:32 PM) Thusness: The mind initially will not be able to discern correctly what Pristine Awareness is.
(7:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:33 PM) Thusness: You must first understand, due to our views, the experiences are distorted.
(7:33 PM) Thusness: so it is as if all these experiences are purified in each stage.
(7:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:34 PM) Thusness: The purpose of buddhism is to jump directly to stage 5 and enter into 6.
(7:34 PM) Thusness: that is, if non-dual is experienced correctly, it is like 6.
(7:34 PM) Thusness: as described in DO.
(7:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:35 PM) Thusness: or if non-dual is peaked it is like that and the understanding is as described by Buddha exhibiting the 3 seals and emptiness characteristics.
(7:35 PM) Thusness: but if we are not clear, it appears to be as what element said 'Oneness'.
(7:36 PM) Thusness: For the lay, it is very difficult to see pristine awareness as empty luminosity, DO.
(7:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:37 PM) Thusness: What is spirituality about?
(7:37 PM) AEN: understanding our true nature?
(7:37 PM) Thusness: what is meant by 'our'?
(7:38 PM) AEN: means what we experience right now
(7:38 PM) AEN: for conventional purpose :P but theres no 'we'
(7:38 PM) AEN: lol
(7:38 PM) Thusness: It is no separate I from the transience
(7:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:39 PM) Thusness: it is to experience 'I'.
(7:39 PM) Thusness: the Eternal Witness, the source.
(7:39 PM) AEN: oic
(7:39 PM) AEN: but u said "It is no separate I from the transience"?
(7:39 PM) Thusness: But what is this 'I'?
(7:40 PM) Thusness: din I tell u that "I AM" is the Presence?
(7:40 PM) AEN: ya
(7:40 PM) Thusness: so when u say there is no 'I', you must know what it meant.
(7:40 PM) Thusness: it is rather the right experience of ur true nature.
(7:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:41 PM) Thusness: progressing from stage 1 to 6 to naturalness.
(7:42 PM) Thusness: However when someone speaks to u or u have some experiences of altered states of our consciousness, ur mind battled from its memory bank trying to categorize these experiences.
(7:42 PM) Thusness: it attempts to conceptualize.
(7:42 PM) Thusness: it is not allowing the experience to tell the whole stories.
(7:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:43 PM) Thusness: and it is very difficult to go beyond this.
(7:43 PM) Thusness: many only reached the level of understanding of non-dual like stage 5.
(7:43 PM) Thusness: And clearly there is this experience that is stage 5.
(7:44 PM) Thusness: But there is also stage 6.
(7:44 PM) Thusness: and one with correct 'understanding' is able to go to stage 6.
(7:44 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:45 PM) Thusness: When u talk about spirituality, u cannot talk about existence without Awareness.
(7:45 PM) Thusness: That is science attempts to do that.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: But in spirituality, this is not the case.
(7:46 PM) AEN: ic ya
(7:46 PM) Thusness: u cannot mixed the 2.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: don't get confused.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: u cannot deep in u want to understand as if Pristine Awareness doesn't exist in spirituality.
(7:47 PM) AEN: icic yea
(7:47 PM) Thusness: This also applies to Buddhism.
(7:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness: It is not a teaching about objective existence but phenomena.
(7:48 PM) Thusness: It is a teaching about our pristine awareness.
(7:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness: i go makan first.
(7:48 PM) AEN: ok

(8:00 PM) Thusness: So it is just my experience and opinion.
(8:01 PM) Thusness: Because science has such powerful impact on modern society, u will unknowingly be affected.
(8:01 PM) Thusness: and when understanding DO, u will be confused.
(8:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:02 PM) AEN: does that mean ppl in the past can understand DO more easily?
(8:02 PM) Thusness: possible. :P
(8:02 PM) Thusness: anyway focus more on ur experience.
(8:03 PM) Thusness: so when u see DO, try not to view it as independent of our pristine awareness as if it is talking about objective existence.
(8:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:03 PM) Thusness: This is just my opinion and experience. :)
(8:04 PM) Thusness: Next what is mindfulness?
(8:04 PM) AEN: means bare attention of experience?
(8:04 PM) Thusness: what did Element said about "Mindfulness"?
(8:04 PM) AEN: more like recollecting something
(8:05 PM) Thusness: So in your opinion, is this a correct description of mindfulness?
(8:05 PM) AEN: dun tink so
(8:06 PM) AEN: actually
(8:06 PM) AEN: mindfulness has a quality of 'remembering' but its not like memory
(8:06 PM) AEN: more like coming back to attention thats all
(8:06 PM) Thusness: not good enough
(8:06 PM) Thusness: what else?
(8:07 PM) AEN: mindfulness is actually our natural state.. like what ven gunaratana said,
(8:07 PM) AEN:

When you first become aware of something, there is a fleeting instant of pure awareness just before you conceptualize the thing, before you identify it. That is a stage of Mindfulness. Ordinarily, this stage is very short. It is that flashing split second just as you focus your eyes on the thing, just as you focus your mind on the thing, just before you objectify it, clamp down on it mentally and segregate it from the rest of existence. It takes place just before you start thinking about it--before your mind says, "Oh, it's a dog." That flowing, soft-focused moment of pure awareness is Mindfulness. In that brief flashing mind-moment you experience a thing as an un-thing. You experience a softly flowing moment of pure experience that is interlocked with the rest of reality, not separate from it. Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. Yet this moment of soft, unfocused, awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thin
(8:07 PM) AEN: . In the process of ordinary perception, the Mindfulness step is so fleeting as to be unobservable. We have developed the habit of squandering our attention on all the remaining steps, focusing on the perception, recognizing the perception, labeling it, and most of all, getting involved in a long string of symbolic thought about it. That original moment of Mindfulness is rapidly passed over. It is the purpose of the above mentioned Vipassana (or insight) meditation to train us to prolong that moment of awareness.
(8:09 PM) Thusness: What about the stuff Element said?
(8:10 PM) AEN: he speaks about mindfulness as if something we can direct according to our intentions
(8:10 PM) AEN: but i tink mindfulness is more like waking up from our conceptualization process to what is present
(8:11 PM) AEN: ya and he said mindfulness is like a supervisor
(8:11 PM) AEN: like watching the mind or something
(8:12 PM) Thusness: mindfulness as recollection
(8:12 PM) Thusness: but he further clarifies mindfulness as remembering to be in the present moment.
(8:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:13 PM) Thusness: so what has that got to do with the 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) AEN: the present moment exhibits 3 seals?
(8:14 PM) Thusness: and he brought up a very important topic, 'oneness vs dispassionate'
(8:15 PM) AEN: oic ya actually i think its the same
(8:15 PM) AEN: i wanted to reply yesterday but no time, but i saved some of the things i wrote... going to edit first
(8:15 PM) AEN: haven edited

(8:19 PM) Thusness: first tell me more about mindfulness
(8:20 PM) AEN: hmm wat about it
(8:20 PM) Thusness: what can u learn from Element and what you know
(8:21 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:21 PM) AEN: mindfulness is like recollecting what is present?
(8:22 PM) Thusness: how can u recollect what is present?
(8:23 PM) AEN: means not forgetting present moment and getting lost in thoughts?
(8:23 PM) Thusness: no
(8:24 PM) AEN: recollecting just means paying attention?
(8:24 PM) Thusness: no
(8:25 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:25 PM) AEN: means focusing on an object and keeping it in mind?
(8:25 PM) Thusness: no
(8:26 PM) AEN: dunnu leh
(8:26 PM) AEN: lol
(8:27 PM) Thusness: mindfulness is a form of practice
(8:27 PM) AEN: by noticing that you are not present?
(8:27 PM) Thusness: what is so great about being 'Now'?
(8:28 PM) AEN: because 'now' is the only reality?
(8:28 PM) Thusness: so what is so great about 'Reality'?
(8:29 PM) AEN: its clear and liberating?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: ???
(8:30 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha tell u that being in the 'Now' moment u will be liberated?
(8:30 PM) AEN: no
(8:30 PM) Thusness: then why u say that?
(8:31 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:31 PM) AEN: by clearly perceiving the true nature of the 'now' moment then there is liberation?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: who tell u that?
(8:31 PM) Thusness: no such thing.
(8:31 PM) AEN: icic
(8:31 PM) Thusness: It was derived.
(8:32 PM) Thusness: By some practitioners and masters.
(8:32 PM) AEN: being "now" means going pre symbolic?
(8:32 PM) AEN: oic
(8:33 PM) Thusness: first Element spoke about recollection.
(8:33 PM) Thusness: is mindfulness about recollection?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: or being pre-conceptual and bare.
(8:33 PM) AEN: i tink all?
(8:33 PM) Thusness: all as in?
(8:34 PM) AEN: its recollection, pre conceptual and bare
(8:34 PM) Thusness: meaning?
(8:34 PM) AEN: ven gunaratana said
(8:34 PM) AEN:

(A) Mindfulness reminds you of what you are supposed to be doing . In meditation, you put your attention on one item. When your mind wanders from this focus, it is Mindfulness that reminds you that your mind is wandering and what you are supposed to be doing. It is Mindfulness that brings your mind back to the object of meditation. All of this occurs instantaneously and without internal dialogue. Mindfulness is not thinking. Repeated practice in meditation establishes this function as a mental habit which then carries over into the rest of your life. A serious meditator pays bare attention to occurrences all the time, day in, day out, whether formally sitting in meditation or not. This is a very lofty ideal towards which those who meditate may be working for a period of years or even decades. Our habit of getting stuck in thought is years old, and that habit will hang on in the most tenacious manner. The only way out is to be equally persistent in the cultivation of constant Mindfulness. When Mindfulness is present, you will notice when you become stuck in your thought patterns. It
(8:34 PM) AEN: It is that very noticing which allows you to back out of the thought process and free yourself from it. Mindfulness then returns your attention to its proper focus. If you are meditating at that moment, then your focus will be the formal object of meditation. If your are not in formal meditation, it will be just a pure application of bare attention itself, just a pure noticing of whatever comes up without getting involved--"Ah, this comes up...and now this, and now this... and now this".

Mindfulness is at one and the same time both bare attention itself and the function of reminding us to pay bare attention if we have ceased to do so. Bare attention is noticing. It re- establishes itself simply by noticing that it has not been present. As soon as you are noticing that you have not been noticing, then by definition you are noticing and then you are back again to paying bare attention.

Mindfulness creates its own distinct feeling in consciousness. It has a flavor--a light, clear, energetic flavor. Conscious thought is heavy by comparison, ponderous and picky. But here again, these a
(8:35 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:35 PM) AEN: mindfulness becomes a mental habit?
(8:35 PM) Thusness: mindfulness leading to enlightenment?
(8:35 PM) AEN: huh
(8:36 PM) AEN: i mean mindfulness serves as recollection when it becomes a mental habit?
(8:36 PM) Thusness: What is the relationship between Mindfulness and Enlightenment?
(8:37 PM) AEN: u need mindfulness to see things as they are, like perceive the 3 characteristics
(8:38 PM) Thusness: closer...what is mindfulness?
(8:38 PM) AEN: means bare attention?
(8:38 PM) Thusness: bare is pre-symbolic like being naked in awareness.
(8:39 PM) AEN: icic ya
(8:40 PM) Thusness: now getting back to where u stop after ur mind wonders is not the purpose of mindfulness.
(8:40 PM) Thusness: every form of meditation requires us to do that.
(8:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:40 PM) AEN: so u mean
(8:40 PM) AEN: mindfulness is not recollection?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: u do not recollect present moment
(8:41 PM) AEN: icic
(8:41 PM) Thusness: what has it got to do with the 3 characteristics?
(8:41 PM) Thusness: the seals?
(8:42 PM) AEN: recollecting itself does not mean one perceives 3 characteristics
(8:42 PM) AEN: but only when one becomes observant
(8:42 PM) Thusness: ai yoo...
(8:42 PM) Thusness: Buddha spoke of the dharma seals.
(8:43 PM) Thusness: sounded simple but difficult to understand
(8:43 PM) Thusness: we cannot understand the wisdom behind it
(8:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:44 PM) Thusness: mindfulness has several characteristics
(8:44 PM) Thusness: in which bare attention or being naked and non-conceptual awareness is important
(8:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:45 PM) Thusness: 2nd is it must remind (not recollect)
(8:45 PM) Thusness: remind of what?
(8:45 PM) AEN: present moment? or what you are doing?
(8:46 PM) AEN: like breathing meditation then remind of that
(8:46 PM) Thusness: no
(8:46 PM) Thusness: what is there to remind
(8:46 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, u r in the present
(8:46 PM) AEN: ya the reminding serves its purpose only when one becomes lost in thoughts, i tink
(8:46 PM) AEN: hmm
(8:47 PM) AEN: so u're saying reminding = being bare in attention?
(8:47 PM) Thusness: told u that is in all practices
(8:47 PM) Thusness: nothing to talk about.
(8:47 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: remind u constantly of the dharma seals.
(8:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:47 PM) Thusness: when u r bare in attention, does it mean that u know the dharma seals?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: when u r in non-dual, does it mean that u know the 3 characteristics?
(8:48 PM) AEN: i thinks perceiving 3 characteristics is also a matter of clarity?
(8:48 PM) Thusness: all experiences are distorted due to ignorance and propensities.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: for u, u say u r Eternal Witness as if u r constant and everything flow even now.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: Even after reading so much and countless conversation with me.
(8:49 PM) Thusness: so isn't it not clear yet?
(8:49 PM) AEN: oic
(8:50 PM) AEN: so being bare in attention doesnt mean one perceives the 3 characteristics
(8:50 PM) AEN: bcos of propensities?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: even now...even after years of reading and summarizing and discussions?
(8:50 PM) Thusness: yes
(8:50 PM) Thusness: we do not know
(8:50 PM) Thusness: therefore we need to remind ourselves of the seals.
(8:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:50 PM) Thusness: why?
(8:51 PM) Thusness: because insight and wisdom have not arisen.
(8:51 PM) AEN: icic..
(8:51 PM) Thusness: therefore u practice mindfulness
(8:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(8:52 PM) Thusness: u attempt to become non-conceptual, bare but the experience will still be distorted.
(8:53 PM) Thusness: now observing phenomena, seeing them arise and pass away, 'dispassion' arise
(8:53 PM) Thusness: does that mean that u seek what that does not arise and pass away?
(8:54 PM) AEN: depends on whether propensities is reacting?
(8:54 PM) AEN: or whether theres right understanding
(8:54 PM) Thusness: right understanding means u seek or don't seek?
(8:54 PM) AEN: dont seek
(8:54 PM) Thusness: so what is important?
(8:55 PM) AEN: insight?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: insight into what?
(8:55 PM) AEN: the 3 seals?
(8:55 PM) Thusness: or our empty nature
(8:55 PM) Thusness: we come to that later
(8:55 PM) AEN: icic
(8:57 PM) Thusness: This is very important.
(8:58 PM) Thusness: emphasized the 3 characteristics in vipassana because their clear seeing causes something called dispassion and dispassion is the cause of Nibbana.
(8:59 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:00 PM) Thusness: Remember wat I told u and truth about becoming so sick that u gave up everything?
(9:00 PM) Thusness: suffering causes so much pain that u gave up?
(9:01 PM) AEN: not so sure :P
(9:03 PM) Thusness: go and read what i told Isis also.
(9:03 PM) Thusness: and all the discussions about mindfulness relates to what I told u about the 2 practices i told u to do.
(9:04 PM) AEN: dropping and self inquiry?
(9:05 PM) Thusness: if u can understand what i said and the purpose, u will know what i meant and what i am trying to teach u from beginning.
(9:05 PM) Thusness: that is continue to recall and summarize non-dual and emptiness
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have clarity in concepts and the meaning of it.
(9:06 PM) Thusness: to have the non-dual experience
(9:06 PM) Thusness: and lastly dropping
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:07 PM) AEN: by recall u mean mindfulness?
(9:07 PM) AEN: btw wat did u tell isis
(9:08 PM) Thusness: dropping is about dispassion but it is not about dispassion but to arise a total willingness to let go.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: because grasping is 'self' in disguise.
(9:08 PM) Thusness: but non-dual experience will not be understood in terms of the 3 characteristics
(9:08 PM) Thusness: in terms of its empty nature
(9:11 PM) AEN: means one can have the experience of dispassion through dropping but not comprehending the 3 seals or emptiness?
(9:11 PM) Thusness: so bare and being non-conceptual will not allow u to have the right experience of non duality
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) AEN: that is through recollecting or being mindful of the 3 seals right
(9:11 PM) AEN: or vipassana
(9:11 PM) AEN: *reminding
(9:12 PM) Thusness: vipassana must go with right view
(9:12 PM) AEN: icic
(9:17 PM) Thusness: So what are the purposes of the 3 practices?
(9:19 PM) AEN: dropping is to give rise to the total willingness to let go of the self, vipassana is to give rise to the insight of the 3 seals or emptiness, self inquiry is the experience the "I AM" and show how strong the propensity is?
(9:20 PM) Thusness: It is like the dispassion.  That is very important.
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Oneness is very important too.
(9:21 PM) Thusness: Or non-dual luminosity :)
(9:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:21 PM) AEN: thats experienced through vipassana rite?
(9:22 PM) Thusness: Understand oneness from DO perspective.
(9:23 PM) Thusness: And non-dual presence through right view and experience of presence.
(9:24 PM) AEN: oic
(9:25 PM) Thusness: These 3 aspects must go hand in hand
(9:25 PM) Thusness: There is no point arguing
(9:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:26 PM) Thusness: There can be no true understanding of Buddha's teachings without non-dual insight.
(9:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:28 PM) Thusness: To understand the 3 relationships, u need to practice hard
(9:29 PM) Thusness: Don't be afraid of right views.
(9:29 PM) AEN: wat u mean by afraid of right views
(9:29 PM) Thusness: It will help.
(9:29 PM) AEN: u mean dont be afraid of having (right) views?
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Don't be trapped by non-conceptuality
(9:30 PM) AEN: oic
(9:30 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:32 PM) Thusness: Having right views will sync non-dual luminosity with that 'dispassion' (total willingness to let go)
(9:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:33 PM) Thusness: The experience of Presence and non-dual experience can lead to very strong attachment of the Ultimate Reality
(9:34 PM) AEN: even after realising non duality?
(9:34 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:34 PM) Thusness: But not anatta
(9:34 PM) AEN: oic
(9:34 PM) AEN: y attachment
(9:35 PM) Thusness: because of ignorance
(9:35 PM) AEN: icic
(9:35 PM) Thusness: Of our empty nature
(9:36 PM) Thusness: Therefore advaita is not Buddhism
(9:36 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:36 PM) AEN: btw buddha say dispassion is linked to disenchantment is linked to insight
(9:36 PM) AEN: "Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.
(9:37 PM) Thusness: The arising of 'dispassion' is very important but must be correctly understood
(9:37 PM) AEN: icic
(9:38 PM) Thusness: U should take that para seriously
(9:39 PM) Thusness: But Oneness and non-dual should not be overlooked.
(9:39 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:40 PM) Thusness: Missing either one, missed the point.
(9:41 PM) Thusness: Therefore the 3 things I told u.
(9:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:42 PM) AEN: wat are the 3 things
(9:44 PM) Thusness: U tell me.
(9:45 PM) AEN: dispassion, oneness, DO?
(9:46 PM) Thusness: What I tell u to practice?
(9:50 PM) AEN: dropping, vipassana, self inquiry?
(9:51 PM) Thusness: Summary of non-duality and emptiness
(9:52 PM) Thusness: Having right view
(9:52 PM) Thusness: How many times must I tell U?
(9:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:54 PM) Thusness: Without the right view, even with non-dual experience, wisdom of nature will not arise.
(9:54 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:56 PM) AEN: so the 3 are dropping, non dual presence, and summarising?
(9:57 PM) Thusness: Yes
(9:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:15 PM) AEN: what is the difference between non dual and anatta
(10:19 PM) Thusness: It is the right understanding of non-dual experience free from the subject/Object and inherent views.
(10:20 PM) AEN: icic
(10:20 PM) AEN: that means one can realise pathless non dual but yet not be free from subject/object and inherent views?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: Huh?
(10:22 PM) Thusness: I hv written and told u so many times
(10:23 PM) Thusness: then what is emptiness for?
(10:26 PM) AEN: oic
(10:26 PM) AEN: but can u realise non dual and yet not be free from subject/object views?
(10:26 PM) AEN: or u mean inherency
(10:27 PM) Thusness: Yes
(10:27 PM) AEN: icic
(10:27 PM) Thusness: U can have non dual experience but not non-dual insight
(10:28 PM) AEN: so anatta actually includes understanding of DO and emptiness rite
(10:28 PM) AEN: non dual insight u mean insight into pathless nonduality or insight into anatta
(10:28 PM) Thusness: Which is clarity of what is the nature of our pristine awareness
(10:28 PM) Thusness: It is the same.
(10:28 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) Thusness: when one spoke of no-self, one says there is no subject/Object split
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One understands
(10:30 PM) Thusness: One realises that there isn't such a split.
(10:31 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:32 PM) Thusness: But doesn't mean there is clarity
(10:32 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:37 PM) Thusness: Advaita realises that there is no split.
(10:37 PM) Thusness: But the grasping of the source is still there.
(10:38 PM) Thusness: However in anatta there is no grasping of anything.
(10:38 PM) AEN: how to grasp source when its realised to be all manifestation
(10:42 PM) Thusness: as long as one is under the propensity of Self, there is grasping of permanence.
(10:43 PM) AEN: oic ya even sailor bob adamson talks about awareness as permanent/changeless
(10:44 PM) AEN: though he said "everything in essence is that changeless natural knowing--nothing else"
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Although the experience is there, one is unable to fully go beyond this dualistic bond.
(10:45 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:45 PM) Thusness: Thus it is subtle and deep.
(10:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:46 PM) Thusness: The real essence that is empty of inherent existence is the cause of non-dual insight
(10:48 PM) Thusness: the practitioner will not be able to overcome that bond
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after the non-dual experience
(10:49 PM) Thusness: Even after deep experience
(10:50 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:51 PM) Thusness: Unless that inherent/dualistic view Is completely replaced in its inmost level
(10:51 PM) AEN: through emptiness?
(10:52 PM) Thusness: Therefore I said there is a desync
(10:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:53 PM) Thusness: Unable to go beyond it, practitioner prefer to rest in naked awareness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: The grasping will still be there because the root cause is still there.
(10:54 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:54 PM) AEN: grasping on what
(10:54 PM) AEN: source?
(10:55 PM) Thusness: But one having non-dual and realises our emptiness nature is not afraid of having right view.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: Yes source.
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:56 PM) Thusness: But understand that it is a raft that serves as the antidote to dissolve inherent view.
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:58 PM) Thusness: From it one gradually replaces inherent view and experiences nonlocality
(10:59 PM) AEN: means no sense of 'being here'?
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Because there is no need to hold on to anything in the deepest level.
(10:59 PM) AEN: icic
(10:59 PM) Thusness: No this nor that
(10:59 PM) Thusness: Here nor there
(11:00 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:00 PM) Thusness: Dissolve any inherent view, there is no returning nor going
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The experience of non-dual is refined
(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) Thusness: The source is dropped
(11:01 PM) AEN: btw u realised DO/emptiness by contemplating on the buddha's verse 'this is, that is'?
(11:01 PM) AEN: oic
(11:02 PM) Thusness: No
(11:02 PM) AEN: oic then
(11:02 PM) Thusness: Because there is the truthfulness in me...Hehe
(11:03 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(11:03 PM) Thusness: My non-dual stage 5 does not sync in terms of view
(11:05 PM) Thusness: Therefore I continue to have further clarity in non-dual experience and compare with Buddha's teachings
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:06 PM) AEN: u read the sutras?
(11:06 PM) Thusness: When deep in my mind I require no more subject/Object framework, my luminosity becomes clear.
(11:07 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:08 PM) Thusness: I can see the teachings with deeper clarity.
(11:09 PM) Thusness: There is no holding of any views
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) Thusness: It is just intuiting it is so.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:09 AM) AEN: truthz sent me this link to a video explanation of heart sutra, what u tink: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479
(2:13 AM) AEN: thats still non duality as a stage right?
(2:30 AM) AEN: i think it describing stage 2 rite
(12:39 PM) Thusness: The understanding is stage 2 but the experience is stage 5.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: therefore it is advaita sort of understanding.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: http://www.tudou.com/playlist/playindex.do?lid=3173479
(12:39 PM) Thusness: non-dual insight.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: not to misunderstand that the master doesn't know what is non-dual or emptiness.
(12:39 PM) Thusness: there is deep clarity. :)

"Thusness wrote in 2006:

Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

...Practitioners should never mistake this as the true Buddha Mind! "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature. Nothing stays and nothing to hold on to. What is real, is pristine and flows, what stays is illusion. The sinking back to a background or Source is due to being blinded by strong karmic propensities of a 'Self'. It is a layer of ‘bond’ that prevents us from ‘seeing’ something…it is very subtle, very thin, very fine…it goes almost undetected. What this ‘bond’ does is it prevents us from ‘seeing’ what “WITNESS” really is and makes us constantly fall back to the Witness, to the Source, to the Center. Every moment we want to sink back to Witness, to the Center, to this Beingness, this is an illusion. It is habitual and almost hypnotic.
 

But what exactly is this “witness” we are talking about? It is the manifestation itself! It is the appearance itself! There is no Source to fall back, the Appearance is the Source! Including the moment to moment of thoughts. The problem is we choose, but all is really it. There is nothing to choose.

There is no mirror reflecting
All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!..."


"Many good points in that text...

"No need to seek the real;

Just extinguish your views."

This reminds me of John Tan commenting on a number of occasions 'not to chase after experiences, but sever the center'...

"Two comes from one,

Yet do not even keep the one.

When one mind does not arise,

Myriad dharmas are without defect.

Without defect, without dharmas,

No arising, no mind.

The subject is extinguished with the object."

This should be clear for you and actualizing it will stabilize your stage 5"




3rd Ch'an/Zen Patriarch Jianzhi Sengcan:
 

http://www.angelfire.com/nc/prannn/faithinmind.html

FAITH IN MIND

The Supreme Way is not difficult

If only you do not pick and choose.

Neither love nor hate,

And you will clearly understand.

Be off by a hair,

And you are as far apart as heaven from earth.

If you want it to appear,

Be neither for or against.

For and against opposing each other-

This is the mind's disease.

Without recognizing the mysterious principle

It is useless to practice quietude.

The Way is perfect like great space,

Without lack, without excess.

Because of grasping and rejecting,

You cannot attain it.

Do not pursue conditioned existence;

Do not abide in the acceptance of emptiness.

In oneness and equality,

Confusion vanishes of itself.

Stop activity and return to stillness,

And that stillness will be even more active.

Only stagnating in duality,

How can you recognize oneness?

If you fail to penetrate oneness,

Both places lose their function.

Banish existence and you fall into existence;

Follow emptiness and you turn your back on it.

Excessive talking and thinking

Turn you from harmony with the Way.

Cut off talking and thinking,

And there is nowhere you cannot penetrate.

Return to the root and attain the principle;

Pursue illumination and you lose it.

One moment of reversing the light

Is greater than the previous emptiness.

The previous emptiness is transformed;

It was all a product of deluded views.

No need to seek the real;

Just extinguish your views.

Do not abide in dualistic views;

take care not to seek after them.

As soon as there is right and wrong

The mind is scattered and lost.

Two comes from one,

Yet do not even keep the one.

When one mind does not arise,

Myriad dharmas are without defect.

Without defect, without dharmas,

No arising, no mind.

The subject is extinguished with the object.

The object sinks away with the subject.

Object is object because of the subject;

Subject is subject because of the object.

Know that the two

Are originally one emptiness.

In one emptiness the two are the same,

Containing all phenomena.

Not seeing fine or course,

How can there be any bais?

The Great Way is broad,

Neither easy nor difficult.

With narrow views and doubts,

Haste will slow you down.

Attach to it and you lose the measure;

The mind will enter a deviant path.

Let it go and be spontaneous,

Experience no going or staying.

Accord with your own nature, unite with the Way,

Wander at ease, without vexation.

Bound by thoughts, you depart from the real;

And sinking into a stupor is bad.

It is not good to weary the spirit.

Why alternate between aversion and affection?

If you wish to enter the one vehicle,

Do not be repelled by the sense realm.

With no aversion to the sense realm,

You become one with true enlightenment.

The wise have no motives;

Fools put themselves in bondage.

One dharma is not different from another.

The deluded mind clings to whatever it desires.

Using mind to cultivate mind-

Is this not a great mistake?

The erring mind begets tranquility and confusion;

In enlightenment there are no likes or dislikes.

The duality of all things

Issues from false discriminations.

A dream, an illusion, a flower in the sky-

How could they be worth grasping?

Gain and loss, right and wrong-

Discard them all at once.

If the eyes do not close in sleep,

All dreams will cease of themselves.

If the mind does not discriminate,

All dharmas are of one suchness.

The essence of one suchness is profound;

Unmoving, conditioned things are forgotten.

Contemplate all dharmas as equal,

And you return to things as they are.

When the subject disappears,

There can be no measuring or comparing.

Stop activity and there is no activity;

When activity stops, there is no rest.

Since two cannot be established,

How can there be one?

In the very ultimate,

Rules and standards do not exist.

Develop a mind of equanimity,

And all deeds are put to rest.

Anxious doubts are completely cleared.

Right faith is made upright.

Nothing lingers behind,

Nothing can be remembered.

Bright and empty, functioning naturally,

The mind does not exert itself.

It is not a place of thinking,

Difficult for reason and emotion to fathom.

In the Dharma Realm of true suchness,

There is no other, no self.

To accord with it is vitally important;

Only refer to "not-two."

In not-two all things are in unity;

Nothing is not included.

The wise throughout the ten directions

All enter this principle.

This principle is neither hurried nor slow-

One thought for ten thousand years.

Abiding nowhere yet everywhere,

The ten directions are right before you.

The smallest is the same as the largest

In the realm where delusion is cut off.

The largest is the same as the smallest;

No boundaries are visible.

Existence is precisely emptiness;

Emptiness is precisely existence.

If it is not like this,

Then you must not preserve it.

One is everything;

Everything is one.

If you can be like this,

Why worry about not finishing?

Faith and mind are not two;

Non-duality is faith in mind.

The path of words is cut off;

There is no past, no future, no present.

by Jianzhi Sengcan

Third Patriarch of Chan

b.?, d. 606 A.D.
Thusness Stage 3: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

Thusness (2008) on Stage 3: "Associating 'death of I' with vivid luminosity of your experience is far too early. This will lead you into erroneous views because there is also the experience of practitioners by way of complete surrendering or elimination (dropping) like Taoist practitioners. An experience of deep bliss that is beyond that of what you experienced can occur. But the focus is not on luminosity but effortlessness, naturalness and spontaneity. In complete giving up, there is no 'I' ; it is also needless to know anything; in fact 'knowledge' is considered a stumbling block. The practitioner drops away mind, body, knowledge...everything. There is no insight, there is no luminosity there is only total allowing of whatever that happens, happen in its own accord. All senses including consciousness are shut and fully absorbed. Awareness of 'anything' is only after emerging from that state.

One is the experience of vivid luminosity while the other is a state of oblivious. It is therefore not appropriate to relate the complete dissolving of 'I' with what u experienced alone."

Related article on going from I AM to Nothingness: http://www.prahlad.org/disciples/premananda/essays/NISARGADATTA%20CONSCIOUSNESS%20AND%20AWARENESS.htm


Thusness's comments on Stage 3:



Session Start: Saturday, October 04, 2008


(3:21 PM) AEN:    Q: Is the "I Am" there all the time, as long as my body is there?

M: The "I Am" is absent only in the state of samadhi, when the self merges into the Self.  Otherwise, it will be there. In the state of a realized person the "I Am" is there; he just  doesn't give much importance to it. A jnani is not guided by a concept.
(3:21 PM) AEN:    .... Feeling that I am present depends on having a body; I am neither the body nor the  conscious presence.

In this body is the subtle principle "I Am"; that principle witnesses all this. You are not  the words. Words are the expression of space, they are not yours. Still further, you are not  that "I Am"
(3:22 PM) AEN:    Q: As an individual can we go back to the source?

M: Not as an individual; the knowledge "I Am" must go back to its own source.

Now, consciousness has identified with a form. Later, it understands that it is not that form  and goes further. In a few cases it may reach the space, and very often, there it stops. In a  very few cases, it reaches its real source, beyond all conditioning.

It is difficult to give up that inclination of identifying the body as the self. I am not  talking to an individual, I am talking to the consciousness. It is consciousness which must  seek its source.
(3:22 PM) AEN:    Out of that no-being state comes the beingness. It comes as quietly as twilight, with just a  feel of "I Am" and then suddenly the space is there. In the space, movement starts with the  air, the fire, the water, and the earth. All these five elements are you only. Out of your  consciousness all this has happened. There is no individual. There is only you, the total  functioning is you, the consciousness is you.

You are the consciousness, all the titles of the Gods are you names, but by clinging to the  body you hand yourself over to time and death -- you are imposing it on yourself.
(3:22 PM) AEN:    I am the total universe. When I am the total universe I am in need of nothing because I am  everything. But I cramped myself into a small thing, a body; I made myself a fragment and  became needful. I need so many things as a body. In the absence of a body, do you, and did you, exist? Are you, and were you, there or not?  Attain that state which is and was prior to the body. Your true nature is open and free, but  you cover it up, you give it various designs.
(3:24 PM) AEN:    wat he means by in a few cases it may reach the space
(3:28 PM) Thusness:    not exactly good in my view.
(3:28 PM) AEN:    oic
(3:28 PM) AEN:    wat is he trying to say
(3:33 PM) Thusness:    trying to experience something like stage 3
(3:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:35 PM) AEN:    ya he said about going into oblivion
(3:35 PM) AEN:  

M: If you feel that sense of something, can it be the truth? When this consciousness goes into oblivion, who is to say what that state is?

Q: I don't know.

M: Because your "I Amness" is not there, you do not know yourself. When you began knowing that you are, you did a lot of mischief, but when the "I Am" is not there, there is no question of mischief.
(3:37 PM) Thusness:    'I Am' is not there when sense of self is not imputed on sensate reality.
(3:38 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:39 PM) Thusness:    when we truly know what awareness is, there is no 'I Am'.  That does not require being in a state of oblivion.
(3:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:41 PM) Thusness:    What is important is to experience the one taste of oblivion and presence.  Vividly present and gone thoroughly.
(3:41 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:43 PM) Thusness:    When we see that all forms are emptiness, we have the one taste of all manifested states and no state.
(3:44 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness:    When we see are all to see all insubstantiality and essencelessness of forms are vividly luminous, seeing the texture and fabric
(3:45 PM) AEN:    oh ya nisargadatta sems to see that dissolving of 'I AM' as a stage isnt it, he said it dissolves in samadhi otherwise it will be there
(3:45 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:45 PM) Thusness:    ,we see emptiness as form
(3:45 PM) AEN:    he said "I am the total universe. When I am the total universe I am in need of nothing because I am  everything." this is like nondual rite
(3:46 PM) Thusness:    yes but that is not necessary
(3:46 PM) AEN:    what is not necessary
(3:47 PM) Thusness:    Dissolve in samadhi
(3:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:50 PM) Thusness:    a practitioner that experience the 18 dhatus is buddha nature is in maha every moment.
(3:51 PM) Thusness:    there is no concentration nor attention.
(3:52 PM) Thusness:    Even swallowing saliva is maha.  Great and magnificent.
(3:52 PM) AEN:    oic..
(3:53 PM) Thusness:    No sense of self is imputed, no samadhi to enter.  Always Oneness, One Reality.  One action.
(3:53 PM) Thusness:    One sunya. :P
(3:54 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:57 PM) AEN:    "When you pursue the spiritual path, the path of self-knowing, all your desires, all your attachments, will just drop away, provided you investigate and hold on to that with which you are trying to understand the self. Then what happens? Your 'I-am-ness' is the state 'to be'. You are 'to be' and attached to that state. You love to be. Now, as I said, ... your desires drop off. And what is the primary desire? To be. When you stay put in that beingness for some time, that desire also will drop off. This is very important. When this is dropped off, you are in the Absolute -- a most essential state."
(3:57 PM) AEN:    he's saying must drop off conscious presence also?
(3:58 PM) Thusness:    Yes
(3:58 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:59 PM) Thusness:    But that is not the most essential state.
(3:59 PM) Thusness:    It is necessary.
(4:00 PM) AEN:    necessary or not necessary?
(4:00 PM) AEN:    oh u mean necessary but not the most essential state
(4:00 PM) Thusness:    Yes
(4:00 PM) AEN:    icic..
(4:00 PM) Thusness:    That is not the absolute state
(4:01 PM) AEN:    oic..
(4:01 PM) Thusness:    That is just another state That is equally empty
(4:01 PM) AEN:    icic..
(4:02 PM) Thusness:    That too will pass due to its emptiness nature and no purer than that 'I M' state.



Quote - 18 October 2008:


(12:29 AM) Thusness:    There r different phases.
(12:30 AM) Thusness:    Once the 'I' is gone, this quality of seeing as pure seeing without subject and object separation is non-dual experience.
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    But the holding on to the witness prevents the direct experience of the transience.
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    So rest in phenomena completely.  Be phenomena-ing.
(12:31 AM) Thusness:    Don't equate the 2.
(12:32 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:32 AM) Thusness:    See both as non-dual experiences, but resting completely in the transience, the phenomena-ing, is anatta and path u towards the insight of emptiness and DO later.
(12:32 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:33 AM) Thusness:    In later phase of ur experience, this phase is most difficult to break-through. :)
(12:34 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:34 AM) Thusness:    The former always become 'constant' while the later (anatta) is always essenceless, ever manifesting and changing.
(12:35 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:35 AM) Thusness:    although both has no sense of 'I', the former has not dissolved the tendency and the DO nature is not seen.
(12:36 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:37 AM) AEN:    is this the difference between the non-dual experience and non-dual insight u mentioned
(12:37 AM) AEN:    like ken wilber is still non-dual experience right?
(12:37 AM) Thusness:    yes
(12:37 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:37 AM) Thusness:    There can be no such thing as changeless consciousness.
Changelessness wipes out consciousness immediately. A man deprived of
outer and inner sensations blanks out, or goes beyond consciousness
and unconsciousness into the birthless and deathless state (Nisargadatta)
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    The former experience will attempt to seek the above state.
(12:38 AM) Thusness:    While Buddhism is not about that.
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    It is to see all states are empty and experience the nirvana of sound, taste, an arising thought and all transience.
(12:39 AM) AEN:    oic..
(12:39 AM) Thusness:    as well as dream and deep sleep...eheheh
(12:39 AM) AEN:    icic..
(12:40 AM) AEN:    that is stage 3 rite?
(12:40 AM) AEN:    i mean the go beyond conscious and unconscious
(12:40 AM) Thusness:    yes but it is really stage 5.
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    however due to the block of insight of DO, the mind can only rest on phase 3.
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    the experience is already stage 5.
(12:41 AM) Thusness:    But misunderstood stage 3 as ultimate.

...


(12:55 AM) Thusness:    It is without the experience of 'I' but still rest in the Subject.
(12:56 AM) Thusness:    U will see stage 4 onwards is all about resting in transience and nothing on Subject.
(12:57 AM) Thusness:    all those practitioners even after non-dual experience if insight of anatta has not arisen will have the tendency of towards the stage 3.
(12:58 AM) Thusness:    all those practitioners even after non-dual experience and still sink back to the Subject, will have the tendency of skewing towards the stage 3.


...

“[22/4/18, 8:40:51 PM] John Tan: Lately I kept seeing articles and conversations relating to "nothingness" wonder why. The mysterious gate of taoism.

[22/4/18, 8:42:31 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. maybe you should write something about it.. lol

[22/4/18, 8:44:36 PM] John Tan: Lol...Taoist valley spirit is the opposite of clarity...it attempts to express the depth "source" of life.

[22/4/18, 8:47:18 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. sounds like Christianity? Was reading some Christian mystic website I think based on Father Thomas keating. They are aware of I AM and witnessing but states that the goal of Christian contemplation is beyond that, is the source of that and will and doing

[22/4/18, 8:47:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Or something like that

[22/4/18, 8:47:45 PM] John Tan: Nothingness. Even nisargadatta

[22/4/18, 8:49:22 PM] John Tan: There is nothing to contemplate as it cannot be approached through a known mind. They call it contemplative prayer

[22/4/18, 8:49:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: More like prayer.. or meditation.. dunno what is it. Maybe surrendering

[22/4/18, 8:50:08 PM] John Tan: Yes. The tao is the way. The way of always in Union with the "source". Or even yoga. One has to be aware of this dimension but nothing to seek. It is rather only in daily encounter and manifestation

[22/4/18, 8:55:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Union with source is like divine happening? Not my will but the source

[22/4/18, 8:56:12 PM] John Tan: Yes but we cannot approach the  "unfathomable depth" through "knowing".  only moment to moment gnosis in seeing, feeling, thinking, tasting, hearing and smelling.

[22/4/18, 8:57:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Knowing as in intellect?

[22/4/18, 8:58:51 PM] John Tan: Yes intellect.  The way to understanding the nature of aliveness and clarity is to fully "live" and "express".

[22/4/18, 8:59:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..

[22/4/18, 9:00:01 PM] John Tan: Taoism is unique in this sense in expressing this dark illumination

[22/4/18, 9:03:33 PM] Soh Wei Yu: How is it unique?

[22/4/18, 9:09:19 PM] John Tan: it is not really interest in presence. But what is behind presence...when in deep sleep, where is awareness? So the valley spirit is often described as dark. How is this different from anatta?

[22/4/18, 9:24:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Anatta does not see something behind presence but source is none other than manifestation

[22/4/18, 9:25:10 PM] John Tan: What does source is none other manifestation mean to u?

[22/4/18, 9:26:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Means when hearing sound, I don’t see it arising out of a nothingness but sound springs from right where it is fully aliveness and full expression of life

[22/4/18, 9:27:59 PM] John Tan: First you must differentiate between experiential insight that there is nothing behind and directly experiencing presence as the 6 entries and exits. From seeing through conventions and how the mind mistaken. How the mind mistakes and reify conventions. How the mind attempt to fix and fit and explain in a "known" pattern according to its existing paradigm. What r the difference?  And only when these 2 insights arise, practitioner can clearly understand and experience.

[22/4/18, 9:34:30 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Insight that there is nothing behind is realising anatta, directly experience presence is all six senses is just PCE”
 
 
Good video by A H Almaas:
 

 
 
Just like a movie, appearances are dependently originating as formation like burning flames and bubbles without anything coming or going, completely essenceless. Appearances are completely empty and non arising by nature. Seeing this alone liberates. There is no persisting Essence or self/Self anywhere, only dependent formations. Nothing is there, void of substance yet appearing like flames and bubbles. As with a movie, any sense of something or someone coming from here or going there is wrong. It is because we fail to see the nature of dharma (phenomena) as dependent formation that we conceive of phenomena as having essences, as having a life of their own, that could come and go, arise, abide and cease on its own. Has the burning flame came from somewhere, arise, abide, and cease, or is merely an empty dependent formation? You may not attribute some essence to characters in the movie coming from somewhere and going somewhere, but you attribute this to things and persons in real life. Rather see that all phenomena are like burning flame or bubble that manifest on conditions and cease upon cessation or conditions but without anything coming or going, arising or ceasing. If you try to find where they abide, where they go and come from, nothing whatsoever can be found. Appearing but nothing “there”.
 
Do you say the flame has some Essence that has gone somewhere else when ceased? Do you say some Essence has arrived from somewhere when fire starts burning? No, just dependent formations. All afflictive and non afflictive phenomena roll on in dependence without a persisting Essence, agent, or medium. Yet based on yesterday’s events, certain thoughts or actions take place today, as the continuity of the chain of dependencies. Still it is dependent formation, no self/Self involved.

Clinging and afflictions subside in actualizing this as there cannot be any sort of grasping at what is completely without Essence or self-existence. But this liberation does not come from the illusion-like experience but from the complete release of any notion of Essence.. the taste is illusion like but it is the release of Essence that is liberating. Just like it is not the experience of PCE/pure consciousness experience or a state of no-mind (which can simply be peak experiences) that liberates but the release of self/Self from realization of anatta that is liberating.

Seeing this requires us to see the right relationship between experience, view and realization, and not skewing to one aspect.
Also see: What All Religions Have in Common: Light
Vipassana Must Go With Luminous Manifestation
The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Fully Experience All-Is-Mind by Realizing No-Mind and Conditionality
Exertion that is neither self-imposed nor imposed by others
Actual Freedom and the Immediate Radiance in the Transience

Dogen on the Heart of Tiles:

If we belittle tiles as being lumps of clay, we will also belittle people as being lumps of clay. If people have a Heart, then tiles too will have a Heart.
Shobogenzo, Kokyo, Hubert Nearman


I mentioned earlier that I will write something about dull nondual experience and realising the Presence or the Heart.

There is something tremendously alive, intelligent, a quality of pure Presence and that is nothing inert but intensely luminous (not in the sutric definition of purity and emptiness) but in the sense that the intensity of our cognizant mind evokes the sense of powerful radiance and illumination but without any separation between an illuminator and the illuminated, with absolutely no agent/perceiver/doer involved. It can evoke the sense of a radiance that is so intense that it completely outshines all visual darkness of night and brightness of the sun. This Presence is mystically alive, wondrous and magnificent, “more real than real”, and the complete opposite of an inert or merely some dull state of non conceptuality and absorption.

This outshining of Presence-Awareness is not about some hidden invisible background existing behind manifestation (which will be perceived this way at the I AM stage) but is vividly manifest or “Presencing” (Presencing is a better word than Presence as it is not a static background or entity and none other than the dynamic stuff of transience) as the very “realness” or “vividness” of any appearance/display, color, sound, scent, touch, taste, thought, as if everything comes alive and there is something very wonderful and beautiful about it. The brilliant light of Presence-Awareness is none other than the body-mind-universe which when deconstructed and freed from self/Self/physicality is experienced as spheres of vivid light, colors, sounds, and sensations.

This luminosity is also not merely a heightened state of clarity as I explained:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/…/luminosity-vs-clar…

“Someone asked me about luminosity. I said it is not simply a state of heightened clarity or mindfulness, but like touching the very heart of your being, your reality, your very essence without a shadow of doubt. It is a radiant, shining core of Presence-Awareness, or Existence itself. It is the More Real than Real. It can be from a question of "Who am I?" followed by a sudden realization. And then with further insights you touch the very life, the very heart, of everything. Everything comes alive. First as the innermost 'You', then later when the centerpoint is dropped (seen through -- there is no 'The Center') every 'point' is equally so, every point is A 'center', in every encounter, form, sound and activity.”

There is a wide variety of methods to bring oneself to an abrupt stoppage of concepts and a face to face encounter of Pure Presence. All sorts of ways actually, some are safer and some are a bit more risky. For example Thusness, I, Ramana Maharshi, Ch'an Master Hsu Yun and many others have awakened through self-enquiry and we are exponents of the method of self-enquiry. Sim Pern Chong awakened to the I AM through breath meditation. Some get awakened through a mere pointing out by a teacher. Some awakened through yogic, tantric, kundalini paths. Ram Dass, David Carse and others have had their initial realization of the Heart-essence through the use of psychedelic drugs like magic mushrooms, ayahuasca, 5-MEO-DMT, LSD, and so on. (I am not advocating the use of drugs here, just stating that some people have used them with such results) There are many other methods and koans I did not mention.

And yet, many have awakened through a simple shout by a Zen Master or a Dzogchen Master. A sudden unexpected KATZ! or a PHAT! of a Zen and Dzogchen master brings one into the immediate thoughtless face-to-face encounter of the luminous heart-essence. At that moment, you just shift out from all that nonsense and garbage in your head into just that instance of being blanked out into Presence. It is not an inert trance but an alert, alive and yet thoughtless state of Presence. Try it!
But whatever method one uses to introduce that initial glimpse and taste of Presence, it is always through the deepening of insight into non-dual anatta that brings that taste to effortless uncontrivance and full-blown maturity in all encounters and manifestations.

So when one has access to a state of nondual, one should ask whether it is dull and inert or suffused with a powerful sense of Presence. After anatta this Presence is no longer seen as a background but vividly shining forth as the manifold dynamic and seamlessly interconnected display, and the play of dharma and dependent origination is something which is alive, not just inert and mechanistic as someone wrote. All the qualities of I AM - infinite like space, powerful Presence, Luminosity, Clarity, Vitality and Intelligence are effortlessly experienced without contrivance, and furthermore no longer seen as something hidden behind but fully manifested from moment to moment activity and the sense of cosmic Impersonality which was once experienced as being lived through a reified cosmic intelligence is now experienced as the total exertion where a single activity is the exertion of the Whole - an activity that is seamlessly connected and coordinated with the entire Whole, a spontaneous exertion of the Whole of seamless dependencies. In other words all the taste of Presence similar to the I AM, including all the four aspects of I AM and the experience of anatta as requisites are fully present in the experience of Maha suchness, which is an experience of greatness beyond measure, where even a single breath feels cosmic and limitless.

"The purpose of anatta is to have full blown experience of the heart -- boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally. Re-read what I wrote to Jax.

In every situations, in all conditions, in all events. It is to eliminate unnecessary contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without obscuration.

Jax wants to point to the heart but is unable to express in a non-dual way... for in duality, the essence cannot be realized. All dualistic interpretation are mind made. You know the smile of Mahākāśyapa? Can you touch the heart of that smile even 2500 yrs later?

One must lose all mind and body by feeling with entire mind and body this essence which is 心 (Mind). Yet 心 (Mind) too is 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable).. The purpose is not to deny 心 (Mind) but rather not to place any limitations or duality so that 心 (Mind) can fully manifest.

Therefore without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to limit 心 (Mind). without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to place limitation in its manifestations. You must fully experience 心 (Mind) by realizing 无心 (No-Mind) and fully embrace the wisdom of 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable)." - John Tan/Thusness, 2014
Angelo Gerangelo just shared in the new group Awakening to Reality

    Angelo Gerangelo Hi 🙂 I wrote this a while back. May be helpful may not. I think it’s too long so I will post in two parts.

    —-
    I have no idea who might find this useful or want to read it at all. You could say that I actually can’t find “anyone”, anymore than I can find a “my self” apart from the flow of phenomenality.

    When self is out of the way then the field of phenomenal activity informs Itself. There is only luminous self-manifesting presence. This all-encompassing absorption which manifests as color, movement, sound, bodily sensation, texture, taste and smell has no “outside.” In and of itself it is complete, self evident, spontaneous, and undeniable. It is also void of substance, identity, solidity, continuity, purpose or meaning.

    This is what is meant by Dogen’s “when one side is illuminated the other side is dark.”

    To the content-addicted mind this may sound unappealing. However, in direct experience this is blissful, profoundly peaceful and “right” in a way that nothing in the concept-identified world of “me, my life, my problems, my past and my future” even comes close to.

    It is also stateless, natural, and not “of time,” meaning there is no appearance of it coming or going, arising or subsiding. There is a deep intuition that “this is it,” however there is no longer anyone to hold that intuition.

    For example the direct experience of a single color is the culmination of all that Is and it’s underlying unmanifest potentiality, coming forth in and as that color. In this, the intuitive knowing of interconnectedness arises as a gut level instinct. This color “event” is distinct, pristine and has no remainder. The seeing is intrinsic to the color itself and thus the color cannot be said to be an object of seeing.

    The above is true of all sense modalities (five gates).

    This vivid aliveness is experienced as the maximum exertion of the cosmos coming forth to bring about this exact quantum event. This is the ecstasy of coming into Being, not as a discrete entity experiencing a world of phenomena, but as the phenomenon itself.

    This is precisely what is meant in the ninth oxherding picture by “the river flows tranquilly on and the flowers are red,” as well as, “the water is emerald, the mountain is indigo...”

    Released of the burden of a subject, a watcher, or an experiencer, phenomena are seen to be absolutely free by nature.

    In this freedom the flow of phenomenality is infinite in degree, quality and potential.

    The mark of this freedom is transience. This is where description really falters. No conceptual paradigm of transience can communicate transience.

    Conception is largely about description, which is the referencing of something in one’s previous experience and saying “it’s like that,” or “it’s like that only with such and such difference.”

    Transient nature contradicts this conceptual tendency on a moment to moment basis. Not only is there no “before” to compare present experience to, there is no background against which experience can be compared.

    Indeed what is being discussed here is not in the realm of experience, but rather is experience-less. To put it simply, “this isn’t like anything, it is exactly as it is.” This is why terms such as “is-ness,” and “such-ness” are used.

    Even to point to constant flux, endless change is not quite right. To notice constant change there must be a background or a standpoint of comparison, which cannot be found.

    So the use of conception, pointing, description to “get at” transient nature is very slippery business. The following may or may not be helpful.
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  • Angelo Gerangelo The most basic movement of consciousness is simple reflection, as if taking a picture with a camera of what seems to be happening in the sensory world. This is pre-conceptual and operates at a very fundamental layer of processing but if it could be made into a statement, this snapshot would say something like “oh this is how it is, this is the nature of reality.” I would call this the fundamental unit of “frame” or “view.”

    Only after the collapse of frame is transient nature experienced as natural and is expressed as infinite-degree freedom.

    It is imperative here to clarify that what is meant by view or frame in this context is not referring to mere opinion or belief. An opinion or belief can be examined at the conceptual level. This can indeed be quite profitable at earlier stages of realization “Who am I?” However in deeper stage realization this fundamental tendency toward frame can and often does go completely unnoticed. It underlies our most basic tendencies, motivations, assumptions. It is the foundation upon which the entire identity construct is built. This includes personal identity (before kensho or what some call “I Am” awakening), as well as the much more subtle identification with consciousness, universality, pre-conceptual experience that almost always occurs after awakening.

    The challenge is that the contrast between concept identification (pre awakening) and subtle identification with unbound consciousness, universality, the absolute (post awakening), is often so dramatic that it can be mistaken for enlightenment (anatta), and the remaining identification can be completely overlooked. This manifests as the belief “all there is is awareness,” like a constant state of watching with no watcher. We can become convinced either overtly or unconsciously that we have arrived.

    To further complicate the issue, we may have further realization beyond initial awakening where the illusion of subject/object division collapses and yet frame remains very much intact. This can become a “pseudo-completion” and lead to all kinds of subtle but profound distortions.

    More commonly we subtly suspect that the process of realization has not completed itself, but have no clue how to proceed. We often find that many of the drives that motivated us to awaken initially have subsided. We also often find that the approaches to practice that worked previously do not seem to have the same effectiveness or suddenly don’t feel relevant in the ways that they used to.

    So what to do? Well because the sense of being a watcher, a doer, and a volitional agent are built on top of and are thus effects of frame, we must investigate in a specific way so as to avoid remaining in a subtle watcher/doer frame unknowingly.

    Firstly an investigation of the nature and function of frame can be helpful. This investigation should be conducted in as direct a way as possible. What I mean is that the functioning of frame will never cease by mere understanding, conceptualizing etc. Having a conceptual framework can be a good jumping off place but the inquiry must be non-conceptual, direct and with the innocent curiosity of a child. As Christ said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    Returning to the snapshot analogy, the reflective mind (consciousness) takes snapshots of sensory input on an ongoing basis and uses these snapshots to construct a frame which is used as the foundation for “how things are.” This tendency to construct and maintain an objective reality through frame has tremendous momentum. It begins as a small child as we become self aware in the most fundamental way somewhere between the first and second year of life. In early childhood this frame tendency is intermittent, but over time it starts to feel quite solid. This solidity is experienced as continuity (self and world in time). This continuity is fundamental to who we think we are and how we think the world is. By early adulthood it has typically become so solidified that most people would consider it absurd to even question. To question the assumption that I am a choice maker moving through a world called ‘my life,’ in which I solve problems and I have a distinct past and a future that I’m creating, would be akin to insanity in the context of what we consider normal human experience.

    Even with later stages of realization we don’t appreciate the breadth and magnitude of the binding nature of frame until it ceases (anatta).

    So to “get under” frame we must become very clear on the basic units of its construction. This must take place in direct experience only. A mere conceptual understanding will be useless at best and a distraction and hindrance at worst.

    So start to become familiar with these “snapshots.” To do this it is imperative that we spend time directly investigating the sensory phenomena. There are many ways to do this but the key is to look directly, closely, sincerely and repetitively.

    For example: As a color, shape or movement (visual phenomenon) is perceived we should directly investigate its nature without thought. When we do this earnestly we will begin to see the point at which the snapshot is taken. We will see where the direct experience of that color becomes “red” or “red shirt.” We will begin to see where that direct experience of red, when the eyes are closed becomes a mental image of what was previously viewed. These are two examples of thought-reflection (snapshot). One is conceptual (verbal/words/labels), the other is non-conceptual (visual/image).

    Begin to clearly perceive the difference between direct sensory experience and reflective consciousness in this way.

    Do not reject either experience just see them for what they are.

    Similarly when sound is heard, simply experience it directly. Notice the difference between direct experience and the thought that follows that labels that experience. Furthermore recognize that only a thought following direct experience of a sound can state or suggest the presence of someone who heard that sound.

    In this way we begin to perceive sound as it is. We start to experience the no-thingness of it (you can never actually find it in real time bc it’s gone as soon as it’s there). At the same time we start to experience the non-dual (no subject object) aspect of it. This is the direct, all encompassing, “just this” aspect.

    As you clarify both of these “sides” of the direct sensory phenomena there will be clearer and clearer direct knowing that there is no seer, no listener, no sensor, there is only hearing, seeing, sensing. In addition each sensory “event” will clearly be realized as interconnected, complete, vivid and “with maximum absorption.”

    As this is clarified over and over the sense of a doer, seer, hearer, perceiver will begin to fade as it is only found in a thought, never in the phenomena.

    As my zen teacher used to say years ago, “at some point, the mountains, rivers and flowers simply replace you.”
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  • Reply
  • 15h

  • John Tan Angelo, is this ur daily experience now?
  • Angelo Gerangelo John Tan it feels odd to call it an experience however I’d say yes. It’s more simply a way of pointing to the natural phenomenal world as experienced through/by/as the senses. There’s a completely indescribable sense to everything as well. The best way I can say is that there is no “way that things are.” Constant flux so the moment I describe anything it’s already gone. Even the sense of wanting to describe everything here is momentary and based on conditions (this conversation) and is dissolving as it is forming. There’s no sense of having arrived indeed the vessel through which one could say to have arrived or left is only a momentary appearance.

    The transient nature again just defies explanation but I could liken it to this. It’s as if one were walking down a lighted hallway and only the section of hallway that you are in is illuminated. As if the lights turn on and then off again as you walk past. Only there’s no you walking and no hallway only the lights creating appearances of movement and phenomena in that section. The lights in that analogy are the sensory phenomena. Just vivid direct experience self-experiencing.

    Further it seems to quite paradoxically become more and more solid/physical. The physicality of body/world is experienced as interpenetrated with the “realization.” Like a mountain of emptiness, universe walking, talking, sitting, working. The more I write the more I realize this defies description.

    There is value to the precision of description/language in describing stages of realization etc. personally I’m only interested in that insofar as it helps others who genuinely want to wake up to the deepest truths. With that said there can also be subtle fixations on precision of descriptions etc. There is of course a whole other side to realization that is totally instinctual, mysterious, unknowable. The innocence, vulnerability, wonder and awe cannot be overlooked, particularly if we are going to carry this into daily life as usual. I would never say anything is complete here, I am in awe moment to moment and learn from everyone and everything. It is literally impossible to have a sense that “I am liberated but others aren’t.” In a very real way all thatcis seen is Buddha nature. So if I speak to someone in process of awakening this is how I see them. They are both awakening process and Buddha nature. Those cannot be divided out. Not sure if that is helpful.

    Disclaimer- I don’t stand by anything I say, it’s gone as soon as it arrives 🤣
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  • John Tan Yes Angelo, total exertion!

    I like ur description of walking down a lighted hallway.

    Like while walking in a shopping mall, there is no self, just the full fluxing sensations forming the the appearance of the “shopping mall”. Then when entering the car park, the entire fluxing sensations turn into a “carpark”. The taste of this wondrous fluxing appearance is beyond description.

    As for physicality and senses, they are simply conventional designations. In total exertion, all designated boundaries dissolved and the six senses seamlessly inter-permeate each other into one miraculous functioning. In the exertion of seeing for example, it is not only the eyes see; the ears see; the nose sees, the colors see. The entire body-mind-universe marvelously arise as this moment of vivid scenery. In this moment, there is no seer and no seeing, just the beautiful scenery.

    Look, appreciate and dwell deeply into it in non-dual and ask,

    Where is this scenery?

    Unlike sound, taste, thoughts and smell that vanish like evanescent mist, the scenery is vividly and obviously there, but where is it?

    Powerfully present, yet empty like reflection.

    Integrate the two taste and happy journey!
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Jon Norris:


Moonbeams of Mahamudra


‘Moonbeams of Mahamudra’ by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (1511-1587) is one of the central texts of the Kagyu Lineage. When it comes to mahamudra manuals, it ranks in importance just behind the Ninth Karmapa’s ‘Ocean’ texts. For many years, the only English translation we had of this text was the one done by Lobsang Lhalungpa on Long Island back in the 70s under the sponsorship of Dr. Shen. From 1990 to 1995, Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche conducted a series of five annual retreats in Big Bear Lake in California during which he gave a page by page reading transmission for this text, and his brilliant lectures are now collected in another marvelous book, ‘Essentials of Mahamudra’.

https://www.amazon.com/Essent.../dp/0861713710/ref=sr_1_1...

Most Kagyupas practice mahamudra using the widely popular method known as ‘the five part mahamudra’ which depends heavily on deity yoga (the generation and completion stages of mahayoga and anuyoga). But the Ninth Karmapa’s and Tashi Namgyal’s mahamudra manuals embody the ‘essence’ tradition of mahamudra as found in Gampopa’s earliest presentation. This mahamudra can be practiced independently of deity visualization, and focuses directly on shamatha and vipashyana. The Sixteenth Karmapa (Rangjung Rigpe Dorje) felt that this direct system would be more suitable for the western mind, and I heartily agree.

All these years later, I have become an avid student of Dudjom Lingpa’s dzogchen system as taught by Alan Wallace, and I am quite amazed at the similarities between Gampopa’s essence mahamudra and Dudjom’s quintessential dzogchen. Both systems hinge on mastery of shamatha and vipashyana, moving from recognition of the nature of mind to rigpa and on to spontaneous presence. The only significant difference is that the mahamudra manuals conclude with ‘cutting through’ (khregs chod), while Dudjom’s dzogchen manuals add a subsequent step in ‘direct crossing over’ (thod gyal).

https://www.amazon.com/Dudjom.../dp/1614293147/ref=sr_1_1...

Alan Wallace published Dudjom’s five principle dzogchen texts in a trilogy called ‘Visions of the Great Perfection’, and now we have something new on the mahamudra front as well. Elizabeth Callahan has just finished new translations of both Tashi Namgyal’s ‘Moonbeams of Mahamudra’ and Wangchuk Dorje’s ‘Dispelling the Darkness of Ignorance’, and they are both included in the same volume. This book will be released on March 12th. It won’t be cheap as books go, but it will be the best bargain of your life as liberation goes! Elizabeth translated the original restricted version of Wangchuk Dorje’s ‘Ocean’ manual, and it is superb. She knows her stuff. If I were you, I would pre-order this book and set aside some time in March for the meditation cushion!

https://www.amazon.com/Moonbe.../dp/1559394803/ref=sr_1_1...

~ Ŧoƞpa Ɉoƞ