Also see:
1) The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论)

2) Also, explanation of Bodhidharma by Dzogchen dharma teacher Abhaya Devi Yogini in Way of Bodhi
3) Some translations and commentaries of Bodhidharma's texts by John Tan can be found at Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions


Bodhidharma is the first Ch'an/Zen Patriarch, the founder of Ch'an Buddhism in China (that later became Zen Buddhism in Japan).

A short biography:

Bodhidharma was a semi-legendary Buddhist monk who lived during the 5th or 6th century. He is traditionally credited as the transmitter of Chan Buddhism to China, and regarded as its first Chinese patriarch. Wikipedia



This is a very good text and highly recommended reading:

THE ZEN TEACHINGS OF BODHIDHARMA

Translated by Red Pine 1987

Available at: http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/C%20-%20Zen/Ancestors/The%20Zen%20Teachings%20of%20Bodhidharma/The%20Zen%20Teachings%20of%20Bodhidharma/THE%20ZEN%20TEACHINGS%20OF%20BODHIDHARMA.htm

Being a Chinese myself and a Chinese reader, having read the Chinese version, I am not very satisfied with this English translation (a lot of liberties are taken, see my comments below), but still it is a nice attempt and the best we have yet in English, probably.

[6:28 PM, 11/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I'm reading through and listening to master hui lu explanation of bodhidharma texts
[6:28 PM, 11/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/C%20-%20Zen/Ancestors/The%20Zen%20Teachings%20of%20Bodhidharma/The%20Zen%20Teachings%20of%20Bodhidharma/THE%20ZEN%20TEACHINGS%20OF%20BODHIDHARMA.htm
[6:28 PM, 11/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I think its very nice. Focus is on realizing mind, then all is mind and realise no mind [Soh: as in, anatta insight]
[8:31 PM, 11/28/2020] John Tan: Yes.  Good site.
[8:33 PM, 11/28/2020] Soh Wei Yu: U mean the whole website or the bodhidharma page?
[8:36 PM, 11/28/2020] John Tan: Bodhidharma


Zen Master Hui Lu's commentaries on Bodhidharma's teachings (in Chinese):

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EkJXQ6YFaA
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-jWjTpalCI

 

Zen Master Hong Wen Liang's commentaries on Bodhidharma's teachings (in Chinese): 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzHwyukP9oI&list=PLoaBO83c0CKIiffpte7aHvEgFD-izxqNi&index=7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni8de49k1HA&list=PLoaBO83c0CKIiffpte7aHvEgFD-izxqNi&index=8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O862VcRo_PU&list=PLoaBO83c0CKIiffpte7aHvEgFD-izxqNi&index=9


I just wrote to Mr. J today:

Right, they [consciousness and universe] are one and the same not because they both refer to some truly existing unchanging substance and substratum, but because no such 'unchanging substance and substratum' could be found other than a mere name designated upon presencing manifestation.

In the Bodhidharma text:

"At this, the disciple all at once greatly awakened and realized for the first time that there is no thing apart from mind, and no mind apart from things. All of his actions became utterly free. Having broken through the net of all doubt, he was freed of all obstruction."

--> reducing everything to mind is nondual, but anatta is also realising 'no mind apart from things'.

Bodhidharma said, "Whoever knows that the mind is a fiction and devoid of anything real knows that his own mind neither exists nor doesn’t exist. Mortals keep creating the mind, claiming it exists. And Arhats keep negating the mind, claiming it doesn’t exist. But bodhisattvas and Buddhas neither create nor negate the mind. This is what’s meant by the mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist. The mind that neither exists nor doesn’t exist is called the Middle Way.

If you use your mind to study reality, you won’t understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you’ll understand both. Those who don’t understand don’t understand understanding. And those who understand, understand not understanding. People capable of true vision know that the mind is empty. They transcend both understanding and not understanding. The absence of both understanding and not understanding is true understanding Seen with true vision, form isn’t simply form, because form depends on mind. And mind isn’t simply mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. That which exists exists in relation to that which doesn’t exist. And that which doesn’t exist doesn’t exist in relation to that which exists. This is true vision. By means of such vision nothing is seen and nothing is not seen. Such vision reaches throughout the ten directions without seeing: because nothing is seen; because not seeing is seen; because seeing isn’t seeing. What mortals see are delusions. True vision is detached from seeing. The mind and the world are opposites, and vision arises where they meet. When your mind doesn’t stir inside, the world doesn’t arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is true vision. And such understanding is true understanding."

Bodhidharma also said, "But this mind isn’t somewhere outside the material body of four elements.Without this mind we can’t move. The body has no awareness. Like a plant or stone, the body has no nature. So how does it move? It’s the mind that moves. Language and behavior, perception and conception are all functions of the moving mind. All motion is the mind’s motion. Motion is its function. Apart from motion there’s no mind, and apart from the mind there’s no motion. But motion isn’t the mind. And the mind isn’t motion. Motion is basically mindless. And the mind is basically motionless. But motion doesn’t exist without the mind. And the mind doesn’t exist without motion. Theres no mind for motion to exist apart from, and no motion for mind to exist apart from. Motion is the mind’s function, and its function is its motion. Even so, the mind neither moves nor functions, the essence of its functioning is emptiness and emptiness is essentially motionless. Motion is the same as the mind. And the mind is essentially motionless. Hence the Sutras tell us to move without moving, to travel without traveling, to see without seeing, to laugh without laughing, to hear without hearing, to know without knowing, to be happy, without being happy, to walk without walking, to stand without standing. And the sutras say, "Go beyond language. Go beyond thought." Basically, seeing, hearing, and knowing are completely empty. Your anger, Joy, or pain is like that of puppet. You search but you won’t find a thing."

"Once you know this, walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, everything you do is Zen. To know that the mind is empty is to see the Buddha. The Buddhas of the ten directions" have no mind. To see no mind is to see the Buddha."

John Tan wrote in 2011 to someone who just realised anatta, "Next step is not to stagnate in no-self and engage wholly and completely into actions and activities then "satori" has no entry or exit; when the thunder claps, the whole of "satori" is actualized!"

It is also the same realisation expressed here,

"At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the
observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and
movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness,
you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also
no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will
experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing
awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable
and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness
and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no
different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru,
properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at
the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization realization
of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called
“the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization,
or “the vajra mind view.”

"Fruition vipashyana is the correct realization of the final conviction of the nonduality of observer and observed."

Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A
Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 242). Shambhala.

..........

p.s. my own translation from 1 year ago:





  • badge icon
    Bodhidharma is very clear in the 达摩祖师悟性论 (Patriarch Bodhidharma's Treatise of Realizing Nature aka The Wakeup Sermon - http://www.fodian.net/world/dmnsl-e.html ) that 色不自色,由心故色;心不自心,由色故心 - form is not form in and of itself, form is due to mind; mind is not mind in and of itself, mind is due to form. This is the two-way dependency as discussed by Greg Goode - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../greg-goode-on...
    Other verses in the same treatise:
    若知心是假名,无有实体,即知自家之心亦是非有,亦是非无。
    If one knows that Mind is [merely] a false name [conventional designation], without a substantial existence, is to know that one's own mind is neither existent, nor [is it] non-existent.
    若内不起心,则外不生境,境心俱净,乃名为真见
    If within there does not arise Mind, then outside there will not arise environment, environment and mind both purified [emptied], this is called true seeing.
    知心是空,名为见佛。
    Knowing Mind is empty, this is called seeing Buddha.

    • Reply
    • 1y
    • Edited

  • badge icon
    Seeing Mind as mere name/designation is similar to what Nagarjuna has taught:
    Nāgārjuna's Bodhicittavivaraṇa
    39
    The cognizer perceives the cognizable;
    Without the cognizable there is no cognition;
    Therefore why do you not admit
    That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?
    40
    The mind is but a mere name;
    Apart from its name it exists as nothing;
    So view consciousness as a mere name;
    Name too has no intrinsic nature.
    41
    Either within or likewise without,
    Or somewhere in between the two,
    The conquerors have never found the mind;
    So the mind has the nature of an illusion.
    42
    The distinctions of colors and shapes,
    Or that of object and subject,
    Of male, female and the neuter –
    The mind has no such fixed forms.
    43
    In brief the Buddhas have never seen
    Nor will they ever see [such a mind];
    So how can they see it as intrinsic nature
    That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?
    44
    “Entity” is a conceptualization;
    Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;
    Where conceptualization occurs,
    How can there be emptiness?
    45
    The mind in terms of the perceived and perceiver,
    This the Tathagatas have never seen;
    Where there is the perceived and perceiver,
    There is no enlightenment.
    46
    Devoid of characteristics and origination,
    Devoid of substantive reality and transcending speech,
    Space, awakening mind and enlightenment
    Possess the characteristics of non-duality.
    47
    Those abiding in the heart of enlightenment,
    Such as the Buddhas, the great beings,
    And all the great compassionate ones
    Always understand emptiness to be like space.
    bodhicittavivarana_translation_by_thupten_jinpa [Ayurveda Healing Arts Institute - Ayurvedic Distance Learning of Medicine Buddha Healing Center]
    AYURVEDA-INSTITUTE.ORG
    bodhicittavivarana_translation_by_thupten_jinpa [Ayurveda Healing Arts Institute - Ayurvedic Distance Learning of Medicine Buddha Healing Center]
    bodhicittavivarana_translation_by_thupten_jinpa [Ayurveda Healing Arts Institute - Ayurvedic Distance Learning of Medicine Buddha Healing Center]

  • Reply
  • Remove Preview
  • 1y

      Soh
      , I also like Bodhidarma . Coincidentally I was reading him and I separated these two passages that somehow sounded strange to me. I am curious about how this is written in Chines. Both passages, indeed, reminds one of Advaita based ideas.
      From the Wake-Up Sermon:
      Here Bodhidarma is quoting (not criticizing): "And the Nirvana Sutra says, "All mortals have the buddha-nature. But it’s covered by darkness from which they can’t escape.Our buddha-nature is awareness: to be aware and to make others aware. To realize awareness is liberation," Everything good has awareness for its root. And from this root of awareness grow the tree of all virtues and the fruit of nirvana. Beholding the mind like this is understanding"
      and...
      "Worship means reverence and humility it means revering your real self and humbling delusions."
      6 Comments

      Comments


      badge icon
      又《涅槃经》云:“一切众生悉有佛性,无明覆故,不得解脱。”佛性者,即觉性也。但自觉觉他,觉知明了,则名解脱。故知一切诸善,以觉为根;因其觉根,遂能显现诸功德树。涅槃之果德,因此而成。如是观心,可名为了。
      And The Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra says: "All sentient beings have buddha-nature, but due to being obscured by ignorance, they are unable to be liberated." What is termed Buddha-nature is the nature of awakening/awareness. Simply to be self-awakened and awaken others, to clearly comprehend awake-knowing, is named liberation. One should know that all virtues have awareness/awakeness as its root; from this root of awakening/awareness, thereupon it is able to manifest various trees of merits. The merit of nirvana is thus accomplished. By contemplating mind as such is understanding/knowing
      (My comments: It should be noted that the 'awareness' here is actually more like the sanskrit term 'vidya' or the Tibetan term 'rigpa', which means more precisely - the knowledge of one's nature, although often incorrectly or inadequately translated as 'awareness'. Rather than simply the plain clarity aspect of our nature, the full understanding of our nature, the full maturation and ripening of vidya/awakening/rigpa includes the understanding of the *empty* and lucid nature of mind. Thus translating this as 'awareness' is a rather misleading way of translation that lends it towards Advaitic misinterpretations, and a better term would be 'knowledge' or 'awakeness' or something of that manner)
      夫礼者敬也,拜者伏也,所谓恭敬真性,屈伏无明,名为礼拜。
      礼 (courteous) is respect, 拜 is to submit/surrender (礼拜 is usually meant bow in veneration). What is known as respecting true nature, giving up/submitting/surrendering ignorance, is called "bowing in veneration".

      • Reply
      • 50w
      • Edited

    • badge icon
      The term real self (真我) does not occur in Bodhidharma's text

      (Update: in the instances where the term 'real self' appears in the English translation, they are actually to be accurately translated as 'true nature' or 'true suchness' instead. 由彼染心,障真如体故。is translated as "their impure mind obscures their real self" by Red Pine, but its actual meaning is "due to defiling mind, obscuring the body of true suchness".  Bodhidharma did not hold the view of a self or atman, nor did he use those terms throughout his teachings.)
      2

      • Reply
      • 50w

    • Yea,
      Soh
      , thanks for the hassle. I thought so. I imagined it should be a misinterpretation/mistranslation of ideograms. Its a matter of coherency with the rest of the text.
      1

      • Reply
      • 50w

      badge icon
      Buddhi (Sanskrit: बुद्धि) is derived from the Vedic Sanskrit root Budh (बुध् ), which literally means "to wake, be awake, observe, heed, attend, learn, become aware of, to know, be conscious again".)
      ...
      Buddhi is a feminine Sanskrit noun derived from *budh, to be awake, to understand, to know. The same root is the basis for the more familiar masculine form Buddha and the abstract noun bodhi.
      1

    • Reply
    • 50w

      Geovani Geo
      Soh, and/or other Chinese speaking dudes here. In the beginning of the Breakthrough Sermon, the first page ends as "(...)because their impure minds obscure their real self". I am interested in the expression "real self". Bellow I will post the original in Chinese for this first page. I wonder how would you translate this last expression.


      Soh Wei Yu
      Geovani Geo I think I replied you on that before
      But I need time to find out where i posted it in atr blog


    • Geovani Geo
      Soh Wei Yu, I think it was another passage. I am trying to post the image of the Chinese text


    • No photo description available.


    • Bodhidharma's Zen Teachings
      AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
      Bodhidharma's Zen Teachings
      Bodhidharma's Zen Teachings

      • Reply
      • Remove Preview
      • 5m

    • Soh Wei Yu
      As for your particular quote: "(...)because their impure minds obscure their real self"


    • Soh Wei Yu
      由彼染心,障真如体故。
      Because of impure mind, 障 obscure 真 true 如 suchness 体 essence
      In other words, "due to impure mind, the essence of true suchness is obscured"


    • Soh Wei Yu
      Bodhidharma never spoke a word about real self throughout all his texts. Always focused on no mind and anatta and emptiness.
      Usually the badly translated text is referring to 'true suchness' when incorrectly translating as real self.

    • Reply
    • 1m
    • Edited

Also see:
1) The Doctrine of No Mind by Bodhidharma (无心论)

2) Also, explanation of Bodhidharma by Dzogchen dharma teacher Abhaya Devi Yogini in Way of Bodhi
3) Some translations and commentaries of Bodhidharma's texts by John Tan can be found at Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma on the Inseparability of Awareness and Conditions

Mr. K.O.O. mentioned Zen kensho is different from I AM. I replied:




  • badge iconMr. K.O.O,
    Depends. Maybe your teacher doesn't emphasize the I AM, but I have seen many that do. I used to learn from a Ch'an lineage that totally emphasizes that as well. Actually I find it is important and crucial, just that the teachers don't seem to understand anatta beyond the I AM and one mind they realised.
    Also, for example if you look into this, a lot of the descriptions reported are exactly pointing to the I AM -
    Including this:
    ""What is it that thinks in terms of good and bad, that sees, that hears?" If you question yourself profoundly in this wise, you will surely enlighten yourself. If you enlighten yourself, you are instantly a Buddha. The Mind which the Buddhas realized in their enlightenment is the Mind of all sentient beings. The substance of this Mind is pure, harmonizing with its surroundings. In a woman's body it has no female form, in a man's body it has no appearance of male. It is not mean even in the body of the lowly, nor is it imposing in the body of the noble. Like boundless space, it hasn't a particle of color. The physical world can be destroyed, but formless, colorless space is indestructible. This Mind, like space, is all-embracing. It does not come into existence with the creation of our body, nor does it perish with its disintegration. Though invisible, it suffuses our body, and every single act of seeing, hearing, smelling, speaking, or moving the hands and legs is simply the activity of this Mind. Whoever searches for Buddha and Truth outside this Mind is deluded; whoever directly perceives that his intrinsic nature is precisely that of a Buddha is himself a Buddha. A Buddha has never existed who has not realized this Mind, and every last being within the Six Realms of Existence is perfectly endowed with it. The statement from a sutra "In Buddha there is no discrimination" confirms this....
    ...This Mind is latent in everyone, it is the master of the six senses. The effects and causes of all transgressions vanish in a flash, like ice put into boiling water, when one awakens to this Mind. Only after gaining such direct Insight can you affirm that your own Mind is itself Buddha. The Mind-essence is intrinsically bright and unblemished, in it there is no distinction of Buddha and sentient beings. But its clarity is hidden by delusive thoughts just as the light of the sun or the moon is obscured by clouds. Yet such thoughts can be dispelled by the power of practicing zazen, in the same way that clouds can be dissipated by a blast of wind. Once they vanish, the Buddha-nature reveals itself, just as the moon makes its appearance when clouds disappear. This light has ever been present, it is not newly obtained outside oneself."
    3 / TO LORD NAKAMURA. GOVERNOR OF AKI PROVINCE /
    You ask me how to practice Zen with reference to this phrase from a sutra: "Mind, having no fixed abode, should flow forth." There is no express method for attaining enlightenment. If you but look into your Self-nature directly, not allowing yourself to be deflected, the Mind flower will come into bloom. Hence the sutra says: "Mind, having no fixed abode, should flow forth." Thousands of words spoken directly by Buddhas and Patriarchs add up to this one phrase. Mind is the True-nature of things, transcending ail forms. The True-nature is the Way. The Way is Buddha. Buddha is Mind. Mind is not within or without or in between. It is not being or nothingness or non-being or non-nothingness or Buddha or mind or matter. So it is called the abodeless Mind. This Mind sees colors with the eyes, hears sounds with the ears. Look for this master directly!
    A Zen master (Rinzai) of old says: "One's body, composed of the four primal elements,6 can't hear or understand this preaching. The spleen or stomach or liver or gall bladder can't hear or understand this preaching. Empty-space can't understand it. Then what does hear and understand?" Strive to perceive directly. If your mind remains attached to any form or feeling whatsoever, or is affected by logical reasoning or conceptual thinking, you are as far from true realization as heaven is from earth.
    How can you cut off at a stroke the sufferings of birth-and-death? As soon as you consider how to advance, you get lost in reasoning; but if you quit you are adverse to the highest path. To be able neither to advance nor to quit is to be a "breathing corpse." If in spite of this dilemma you empty your mind of all thoughts and push on with your zazen, you are bound to enlighten yourself and apprehend the phrase "Mind, having no fixed abode, should flow forth." Instantly you will grasp the sense of all Zen dialogue as well as the profound and subtle meaning of the countless sutras.
    The layman Ho asked Baso: "What is it that transcends everything in the universe?" Baso answered: "I will tell you after you have drunk up the waters of the West River in one gulp."7 Ho instantly became deeply enlightened. See here, what does this mean? Does it explain the phrase "Mind, having no fixed abode, should flow forth," or does it point to the very one reading this? If you still don't comprehend, go back to questioning, "What is hearing now?" Find out this very moment! The problem of birth-and-death is momentous, and the world moves fast. Make the most of time, for it waits for no one.
    1

    • Reply
    • 1h

  • badge icon
    Your own Mind is intrinsically Buddha. Buddhas are those who have realized this. Those who haven't are the so-called ordinary sentient beings. Sleeping and working, standing and sitting, ask yourself "What is my own Mind?" looking into the source from which your thoughts arise. What is this subject that right now perceives, thinks, moves, works, goes forth, or returns? To know it you must intensely absorb yourself in the question. But even though you do not realize it in this life, beyond a doubt you will in the next because of your present efforts.
    In your zazen think in terms of neither good nor evil. Don't try to stop thoughts from arising, only ask yourself; 'What is my own Mind?" Now, even when your questioning goes deeper and deeper you will get no answer until finally you will reach a cul-de-sac, your thinking totally checked. You won't find anything within that can be called "I" or "Mind." But who is it that understands all this? Continue to probe more deeply yet and the mind that perceives there is nothing will vanish; you will no longer be aware of questioning but only of emptiness. When awareness of even emptiness disappears, you will realise there is no Buddha outside Mind and no Mind outside Buddha. Now for the first time you will discover that when you do not hear with your ears you are truly hearing, and when you do not see with your eyes you are really seeing Buddhas of the past, present, and future. But don't cling to any of this, just experience it for yourself!
    See here, what is your own Mind? Everyone's Original-nature is not less than Buddha. But since men doubt this and search for Buddha and Truth outside their Mind, they fail to attain enlightenment, being helplessly driven within cycles of birth-and-death, entangled in karma both good and bad. The source of all karma bondage is delusion, i.e., the thoughts, feelings, and perceptions (stemming from ignorance). Rid yourself of them and you are emancipated. Just as ash covering a charcoal fire is dispersed when the fire is fanned, so these delusions vanish once you realize your Self-nature.
    During zazen neither loathe nor be charmed by any of your thoughts. With your mind turned inward, look steadily into their source and the delusive feelings and perceptions in which they are rooted will evaporate. This is not yet Self-realization, however, even though your mind becomes bright and empty like the sky, you have awareness of neither inner nor outer, and all the ten quarters seem clear and luminous. To take this for realization is to mistake a mirage for reality. Now even more intensely search this mind of yours which hears. Your physical body, composed of the four basic elements, is like a phantom, without reality, yet apart from this body there is no mind. The empty-space of ten quarters can neither see nor hear; still, something within you does hear and distinguish sounds. Who or what is it? When this question totally ignites you, distinctions of good and evil, awareness of being or emptiness, vanish like a light extinguished on a dark night. Though you are no longer consciously aware of yourself, still you can hear and know you exist. Try as you will to discover the subject hearing, your efforts will fail and you will find yourself at an impasse. All at once your mind will burst into great enlightenment and you will feel as though you have risen from the dead, laughing loudly and clapping your hands in delight. Now for the first time you will know that Mind itself is Buddha. Were someone to ask, "What does one's Buddha-mind look like?" I would answer: "In the trees fish play, in the deep sea birds are flying." What does this mean? If you don't understand it, look into your own Mind and ask yourself: "What is he, this master who sees and hears?"
    Make the most of time: it waits for no one.
    4 / TO A DYING MAN /
    Your Mind-Essence is not subject to birth or death. It is neither being nor nothingness, neither emptiness nor form-and-color. Nor is it something that feels pain or joy. However much you try to know (with your rational mind) that which is now sick, you cannot. Yet if you think of nothing, wish for nothing, want to understand nothing, cling to nothing, and only ask yourself, "What is the true substance of the Mind of this one who is now suffering?" ending your days like clouds fading in the sky, you will eventually be freed from your painful bondage to endless change.
    1

    • Reply
    • 1h

  • badge icon
    etc etc. It is clear that Phillip Kapleau teaches I AM as the beginning breakthrough like so many other Zen and Ch'an masters I encountered.
    I believe
    Angelo Gerangelo
    recommends that book as an essential reading.
    Also, Phillip Kapleau mentioned in his book "Straight to the Heart of Zen: Eleven Classic Koans & Their Inner Meanings", the two distinct phases of realization in Zen practice that corresponds to I AM realization and anatta~total exertion:
    "...A shallow kensho is not fully satisfying. One has seen into constant change, it is true, and into the formless Self as well - that which makes change possible. One has caught a glimpse of both change and changelessness. But it's only a glimpse, and it is not enough, because in reality, the two worlds of change and changelessness are not really two at all. After a time this initial seeing makes us want to go further, deeper. Instinctively we know that it's only well-chewed food that nourishes and satisfies. This we might take as meaning long training through which we more fully integrate our understanding into our daily lives. Our enlightenment is fully digested. Now change is Changelessness. This is what keeps away hunger and uncertainty, anxiety, fear, and above all unsatisfactoriness, the constant feeling of being on edge, alienated, separated - 'a stranger and afraid', as the poet A. E. Housman wrote, 'in a world I never made.' At last we know real peace.
    The verse says: 'This one instant, as it is, is an infinite number of kalpas.' What is a kalpa? The sutras describe a kalpa as the length of time it would take a heavenly being, a deva, sweeping its gossamer wings across the top of the mile-high mountain once each year to wear that mountain down to the ground. This one instant is a kalpa. All time is in this instant, and an infinite number of kalpas are, at the time, this one instant. All time means past, present, and future....
    ...if our mind is entirely free from both time and timelessness, it we are living fully and wholly every moment, every moment is everything; all of time is in each full, vitally alive moment. If one has truly seen into time and timelessness - if one has really become time itself - then there is no notion of time or timelessness to hinder or bind..."
    ""
    On the above excerpts I pasted John Tan 3 years ago, he also said:
    [5:41 PM, 10/22/2017] John Tan: Quite good.
    [5:41 PM, 10/22/2017] John Tan: But differentiate this from DO.
    [5:42 PM, 10/22/2017] John Tan: Different from Direct Experiencing and direct insight
    [5:43 PM, 10/22/2017] John Tan: Means like what I thought of u the other day no ordinariness or superior
    [5:43 PM, 10/22/2017] John Tan: But when u r fully engaged in life, there is life and death doesn't matters
    [5:44 PM, 10/22/2017] John Tan: This is different from DO and emptiness... How r they different?
    2

    • Reply
    • 48m
    • Edited

  • badge icon
    Also, the Zen teacher Charlotte Joko Beck also taught two phases - These are just two examples. There are many others as well: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../the-observing... -- although the description here isn't very much like I AM realization.
    There are also many Ch'an masters that emphasize koan to realize the I AM. Ch'an master Hsu Yun is one of them, also I quoted a number of Ch'an and Zen masters that emphasized that in the AtR guide.
    The Observing Self
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.BLOGSPOT.COM
    The Observing Self
    The Observing Self

    • Reply
    • Remove Preview
    • 42m

  • badge icon
    Actually it's funny that you related Mahamudra with total exertion. Frankly in the past I have never seen any descriptions of total exertion in Mahamudra, John Tan and my impression of Mahamudra is that it is focused on the -A aspect of emptiness only.
    However, recently just two weeks ago, I discovered a description of total exertion in Mahamudra text, which describes mature One Taste as such: "...Having realized the three divisions of time to be the same, in a single moment you see them as indivisible, eons are condensed into an instant, and an instant opens into aeons. You master time. Since body, mind and phenomena are integrated, space and the palm of your hand are equal; the billion world systems fit into a few grains; one is transformed into many, and many are made into one...."
    (Coincidentally, similar to the Zen Master Phillip Kapleau passage I pasted above)
    So you may be right to relate that to higher one taste.
    John Tan agreed with me that this description is precisely Maha Total Exertion. He also said,
    [10:45 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Doesn't sound like mahamudra
    [10:46 PM, 11/15/2020] Soh Wei Yu: lol.. its from the mahamudra book 'The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume 2: A Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence'
    [10:46 PM, 11/15/2020] John Tan: Yeh that is y I said doesn't sound like it

  • Reply
  • 19m
  • Edited



      Is there a standard understanding of how these stages [Mahamudra four yogas] map over to Thusness's 7 stages? (Or am I stepping on a land mine by asking this? ;-))

    • Reply
    • 1d





      badge icon
      I think Soh has gone there in the past. Perhaps search the 4 yogas in the blog (or here).

      • Reply
      • 1d

    • badge icon
      I think Soh has said that one-pointedness is I Am.
      I'd say one-pointedness is merely samadhi, while simplicity is anatta, and one taste is non-dual (but with the view of anatta). Non-meditation can only be shunyata and spontaneous perfection.
      The yogas are mainly meditative, while AtR is mainly view and inquiry, I'd risk to say.
      1

      • Reply
      • 1d

    • Comparative to the jhanas?

      • Reply
      • 1d

    • badge icon
      Matt Harvey
      moreover, AtR is hybrid (Advaita + Buddhism), while the 4 yogas is strickly buddhist.
      1

      • Reply
      • 1d

    • Michael Hernandez
      Jhanas are stages of samatha. Not insight.
      1

      • Reply
      • 19h

    • badge icon
      Matt Harvey
      : There are two explanations on the yoga of one pointedness depending on which teacher teaches it. Some Mahamudra teachers teach the yoga of one pointedness as simply a samadhi state, no realization involved.
      However, in Clarifying the Natural State (a must read if you are into Mahamudra) by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, it states, "You have seen the essence of One-Pointedness if you have reached a naturally knowing and confident certainty in your mind's aware emptiness. You have not seen the essence if you do not possess this confident certitude, even if you can remain in the states of bliss, clarity and nonthought." - https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../mahamudra...
      Dakpo Tashi Namgyal is saying here that One Pointedness is not simply a samadhi state of bliss, clarity and non-thought, that it confers a kind of realization and certainty about the mind's aware emptiness.
      I AM realization is also about the certainty of what Mind is. I say, it is similar. But this is just the beginning as it goes in AtR or Mahamudra path.






      • badge icon
        Matt Harvey
        Although I don't really like to compare paths nowadays (unless it is really of practical use to people? 🤔), since you are curious I'll just paste a conversation here, not sure if helps though.
        [12:39 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Now there is the 顿悟 [sudden realization, i.e. Zen] path. But mahamudra is not by the way of 顿悟。
        [12:40 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: So what is the way they use?
        [12:40 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: What is the technique they use?
        [12:41 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: They have many pointing out instructions and methods of investigating what mind is, what perception and thought is, and its nature
        [12:41 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Many?
        [12:41 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: I dun think so
        [12:41 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Lol
        [12:41 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: And also whether mind and perception is separable, whether mind and peeception is originating etx
        [12:41 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Etc
        [12:42 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: So what does that mean?
        [12:42 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: How do they investigate?
        [12:42 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Directly looking at mind’s nature
        [12:42 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: And how do u do that?
        [12:44 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: I have only another 15 mins for u...lol
        [12:44 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: In clarifying the natural state the investigation into Mind reveals Mind itself, to me it is no different from I AM
        [12:44 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Then they expand into perception and thought
        [12:44 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: And resolve the notion of duality, arising etc
        [12:44 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Thrangu Rinpoche:
        In the Vajrayana there is the direct path to examining mind. In everyday life we are habituated to thinking, "I have a mind and I perceive these things." Ordinarily, we do not directly look at the mind and therefore do not see the mind. This is very strange because we see things and we know that we are seeing visual phenomena. But who is seeing? We can look directly at the mind and find that there is no one seeing; there is no seer, and yet we are seeing phenomena. The same is true for the mental consciousness. We think various thoughts, but where is that thinking taking place? Who or what is thinking? However, when we look directly at the mind, we discover that there is nobody there; there is no thinker and yet thinking is going on. This approach of directly looking in a state of meditation isn't one of reasoning, but of directly looking at the mind to see what is there.
        Source: Shentong and Rangtong
        [link removed because it violates Facebook rules etc]
        ...
        If we look for a perceiver, we won’t find one. We do think, but if we look into the thinker, trying to find that which thinks, we do not find it. Yet, at the same time, we do see and we do think. The reality is that seeing occurs without a seer and thinking without a thinker. This is just how it is; this is the nature of the mind. The Heart Sutra sums this up by saying that “form is emptiness,” because whatever we look at is, by nature, devoid of true existence. At the same time, emptiness is also form, because the form only occurs as emptiness. Emptiness is no other than form and form is no other than emptiness. This may appear to apply only to other things, but when applied to the mind, the perceiver, one can also see that the perceiver is emptiness and emptiness is also the perceiver. Mind is no other than emptiness; emptiness is no other than mind. This is not just a concept; it is our basic state.
        The reality of our mind may seem very deep and difficult to understand, but it may also be something very simple and easy because this mind is not somewhere else. It is not somebody else’s mind. It is your own mind. It is right here; therefore, it is something that you can know. When you look into it, you can see that not only is mind empty, it also knows; it is cognizant. All the Buddhist scriptures, their commentaries and the songs of realization by the great siddhas express this as the “indivisible unity of emptiness and cognizance,” or “undivided empty perceiving,” or “unity of empty cognizance.” No matter how it is described, this is how our basic nature really is. It is not our making. It is not the result of practice. It is simply the way it has always been.
        Source: Crystal Clear ( [link removed because it violates Facebook rules etc] )
        ...

        • Reply
        • 9m

      • badge icon
        [12:44 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: That is not the way
        [12:46 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: [referring to pasted excerpt above] This is anatta.
        [12:46 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: So how do they recognize the mind?
        [12:46 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: It is not the same as I M.
        [12:47 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: It is by what?
        [12:47 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Contemplating on certain questions?
        [12:48 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: How do they resolve that mind is appearance and appearance is mind?
        [12:48 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: By direct authentication like anatta?
        [12:50 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: This is like going into I AM
        [12:50 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Then looking into thoughts, and then contemplating the relation between thought and Mind
        [12:50 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Why r u cutting and pasting me yet nothing nothing
        [12:50 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Until the duality is seen through and same taste is recognised
        [12:50 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: How do they do that?
        [12:51 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Is this the way?
        [12:52 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Until direct authentication dawn, there is no way to directly know. So what do they resolve it?
        [12:53 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: By various questioning and contemplation like what is the relationship between mind and perception.. and other methods of contemplation like the origin or perception to establish the non originated nature
        [12:54 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Faintz...
        [12:54 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: It is by understanding the nature
        [12:54 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: They try to find mind, they can find it, it is empty.
        [12:55 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: They try to find appearance, they realize they have the same nature.
        [12:55 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: That is how they investigate
        [12:56 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: They use the nature and realize they have the same nature..m
        [12:56 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Get it?
        [12:56 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: But that is not the direct taste
        [12:57 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: That is y they kept investigating the nature of whatever appears.
        [12:57 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: However it is very important and it also tell us more about clarity but understanding emptiness.
        [12:58 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. i thought the first contemplating on mind leads to something like i am..
        “You have seen the essence of One-Pointedness if you have reached a naturally knowing and confident certainty in your mind's aware emptiness. You have not seen the essence if you do not possess this confident certitude, even if you can remain in the states of bliss, clarity and non- thought.”
        [12:58 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: If they can have I M even better
        [12:58 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Means luminosity
        [12:58 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not direct taste as in? Not I Am?
        [12:59 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Then they look into the nature and use the nature to resolve.
        [12:59 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: That is y the articles u send me kept talking about the nature and it is resolved.
        [12:59 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: But that is not an authentication
        [1:00 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: However if post anatta and non-dual, it helps one to penetrate further.
        [1:01 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
        [1:02 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Like how it helps me to understand the nature of clarity. But having an intellectual understanding of emptiness. How to relook at phenomena and mind and meditate on them.
        [1:02 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: U will breakthrough further.
        [1:02 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: When u look at a sensation, hear a sound, taste or vision
        [1:04 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: When u know emptiness, u have deeper understanding. When u go through mmk and understand more and more about chariot..
        U see and directly authenticate more and more of mind and phenomena.
        [1:04 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: By authentication you mean like anatta taste and realisation?
        [1:05 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: It will loosen the coventional grip on us and deepen our understanding.
        [1:05 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Yes
        [1:05 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Emptiness has another dimension if u practice diligently.
        [1:05 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: So u mean those mahamudra techniques is more about investigating the emptiness of everything but not necessarily anatta taste
        [1:06 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: It is not just walking in park and appreciate space like openness in non-dual mode.
        [1:07 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: This depends on the training. Like those articles u showed me, there is anatta and there is I M.
        [1:07 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: But the I M may not b as strong as those in advaita. I m not sure.
        [1:08 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
        [1:08 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Now having non-dual experience or a state of no- mind do not mean finality.
        [1:09 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: We must also free our from many more intellectual obscurations.
        [1:10 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: And other obscurations of cause.
        [1:10 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Like having non-dual or no-mind may not free on from the notion of self.
        [1:11 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Freeing one from the notion of self, may not free one from the notion of cause.
        [1:11 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Freeing one from the notion of cause, may not free one from the notion of existence.
        [1:12 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Freeing one from duality, may not free one from non-duality.
        [1:13 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: The color u see is neither inside, nor outside. It is inside, it is also outside. It is private, it is also public.
        So it is neither too.
        [1:14 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: So freedom from insight is not different from a blank state.
        [1:15 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: You mean is different
        [1:15 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Yes
        [1:15 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
        [1:17 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: So in addition to walking in a park, being anatta, borderless and open, non-dual and total exerted, u must also spend time to free up further intellectual obscurations to blind us.
        [1:18 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: That blind us I mean.
        [1:18 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. through mmk?
        [1:19 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: The chariot analogy is enough...but the diamond splitter, neither one nor many...all these ways of ultimate analysis that see through essence can help also.
        [1:20 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: But simple looking and understanding the chariot analogy helps me a lot...it depends on individual.
        [1:21 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Then authenticate it with ur actual experience in anatta.
        [1:21 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: That is y I say those article u pasted asking me is that subsuming is good.
        [1:22 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: But if u fail to c, u will miss the importance of it.
        [1:23 AM, 5/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
        [1:23 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: To me it is not to help resolve that appearances r just one's empty clarity but helps to refine my insight on the nature...
        [1:25 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: Our conventional knowledge has cage used into seeing a separate, divided physical and mental world.
        [1:25 AM, 5/16/2020] John Tan: The knowledge blinds and bind is to an assumed reality that is not easy to break.

        • Reply
        • 9m

      • badge icon
        Òskar K. Linares
        wanted to send you this conversation but it got removed.


        .....

        In a different facebook group, Rinzai Zen discussion, someone asked this question on the same day as above conversation, so I replied with a somewhat similar reply:

        "
        Is anyone familiar with Ku San Sunim? I wonder if the line "the One Thing that doesn't change" from the following talk at IMS 11/16/’80 could be mistranslated? From my understanding Buddha rejected Atman - the unchangeble, permanent Self. Could Ku San Sunim be possibly referring to something else?
        "From One Bright Thing, the brightness has many marvelous functions.
        All creations are good, but the One Thing that doesn’t change is most beautiful.
        The old mountains stand by the river.
        The boats from the ocean return to the shore. ""


        Soh replied:

        Ms. A.W.M.,

        Many Zen and Ch'an masters do point to a similar realization as Hinduism's Atman, however as some of them clarified, such as Phillip Kapleau Roshi, it is simply an initial realization and the realization is to be refined later on. Hinduism's Atman is the direct authentication of the aspect of the luminous clarity and Presence of our Buddha-nature, but its empty nature ('no mind' as taught by Bodhidharma) is realised later on. Prior to that refinement of insight, Buddha-nature can be somewhat reified into Atman-Brahman.
        For example, Phillip Kapleau Roshi mentioned in his book "Straight to the Heart of Zen: Eleven Classic Koans & Their Inner Meanings", the two distinct phases of realization in Zen practice that corresponds to what I personally term "I AM realization" and "anatta~total exertion":
        "...A shallow kensho is not fully satisfying. One has seen into constant change, it is true, and into the formless Self as well - that which makes change possible. One has caught a glimpse of both change and changelessness. But it's only a glimpse, and it is not enough, because in reality, the two worlds of change and changelessness are not really two at all. After a time this initial seeing makes us want to go further, deeper. Instinctively we know that it's only well-chewed food that nourishes and satisfies. This we might take as meaning long training through which we more fully integrate our understanding into our daily lives. Our enlightenment is fully digested. Now change is Changelessness. This is what keeps away hunger and uncertainty, anxiety, fear, and above all unsatisfactoriness, the constant feeling of being on edge, alienated, separated - 'a stranger and afraid', as the poet A. E. Housman wrote, 'in a world I never made.' At last we know real peace.
        The verse says: 'This one instant, as it is, is an infinite number of kalpas.' What is a kalpa? The sutras describe a kalpa as the length of time it would take a heavenly being, a deva, sweeping its gossamer wings across the top of the mile-high mountain once each year to wear that mountain down to the ground. This one instant is a kalpa. All time is in this instant, and an infinite number of kalpas are, at the time, this one instant. All time means past, present, and future....
        ...if our mind is entirely free from both time and timelessness, it we are living fully and wholly every moment, every moment is everything; all of time is in each full, vitally alive moment. If one has truly seen into time and timelessness - if one has really become time itself - then there is no notion of time or timelessness to hinder or bind..."