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Author[1:03 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: "John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)"? What u mean?[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: i think you mentioned before that yogacara is more towards the nondual effortless radiance but madhyamika puts aside that emphasis and is more on presence is empty in nature[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: something like that[1:16 PM, 1/9/2021] Soh Wei Yu: but i still dont really understand the differences lol havent studied them much[1:32 PM, 1/9/2021] John Tan: Yes. That is y I tell u don't anyhow comment. The reason y I tell u to focus on the 3 aspects of conceptualities is prevent u from wasting time on those tibetan polemics so that u don't lost track on what that is essential to practice. Some points r important and will trigger insights that bring abt greater release to mind attachments that r difficult and too subtle to detect while some r like what Tyler said "hairsplitting" or worst still, pure stereotyping and strawman agruments. I will go through with u later or write something about it. However at the rate u r sending me all these questions everyday, I dunno when can I even start to summarize as almost all my available free time r taken up by ur "haressments"
.
I
always want to ground scholastic debates in actual lived awakening, so I
wonder, if a person gets non-dual (stage 4) and also actually perceives
their mindstream as impermanent and momentary, would that automatically
get them stage 5? If so that would mean all harisplitting debate about
whether non-dual consciousness "inherently exists" in Yogcara would be
unnecessary.
Tyler Jones
IMO it should. Cittamatra is considered a step from Anatta to Emptiness
of Phenomena. Its somewhat between Anatta and full Emptiness. Self is
deconstructed by seeing the momentary nature of consciousness. In other
words there is no lasting self but stream of moments. ' xlink:href='%23b'/%3e%3cuse fill='black' filter='url(%23c)' xlink:href='%23b'/%3e%3cpath fill='white' d='M12.162 7.338c.176.123.338.245.338.674 0 .43-.229.604-.474.725a.73.73 0 01.089.546c-.077.344-.392.611-.672.69.121.194.159.385.015.62-.185.295-.346.407-1.058.407H7.5c-.988 0-1.5-.546-1.5-1V7.665c0-1.23 1.467-2.275 1.467-3.13L7.361 3.47c-.005-.065.008-.224.058-.27.08-.079.301-.2.635-.2.218 0 .363.041.534.123.581.277.732.978.732 1.542 0 .271-.414 1.083-.47 1.364 0 0 .867-.192 1.879-.199 1.061-.006 1.749.19 1.749.842 0 .261-.219.523-.316.666zM3.6 7h.8a.6.6 0 01.6.6v3.8a.6.6 0 01-.6.6h-.8a.6.6 0 01-.6-.6V7.6a.6.6 0 01.6-.6z'/%3e%3c/g%3e%3c/svg%3e){kind=small}
Author
Tyler Jones
I do not think Yogacara is stage 4 kind of one mind.Kyle shared months ago,
John Tan said,
This
article is very well written and yogacara never really explicitly said
that mind is ultimate. This idea privileging mind as ultimate over the
relative phenomena was a later devleopment.
OLD.REDDIT.COM
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga
Author
John Tan did not consider the differences and distinctions as mere hairsplitting. (Maybe I'll write more later on)
Tyler Jones
however the debate would be more around wether we could consider this Stage 6. It would seem to be 5.5 xDAuthor
Robert Dominik Tkanka
Even Hinayana accepts consciousness as merely momentary stream of
moments without Self. But unlike Hinayana, Yogacara refutes external
phenomena (which Madhyamika may or may not conventionally refute
depending on which type of Madhyamika). It talks about twofold emptiness
as well.Cittamatra
to me is Anatta with extra "form is empty cause it has the same nature
as mental objects". Actually if we ground the discussion in Skandhas
then the only difference between Anatta of the Pali Canon and Cittamatra
is that Cittamatra says that the Skandha of Form is not substantially
different from the mental Skandhas. Or we could say that all the objects
of senses are mental objects.
Soh Wei Yu
speaks about how Anatta on its own can have a taste of physicality.
Cittamatra dissolves that. However the emptiness of mental objects and
moments of consciousness is not fully realised in Cittamatra. Author
[1:08 AM, 8/4/2020] Soh Wei Yu: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30336&start=20 - malcolm seems to say here that yogacara does not lead to 1st bhumi
[1:53
AM, 8/4/2020] John Tan: It depends. Yogacara doesn't really claim mind
is real ontologically from Dan Lusthaus if I rem correctly, it is
cittamatra that says that...but u better double check ... It is a later
devleopment from what I read
DHARMAWHEEL.NET
What is the nature of mind? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
Sure
Sravakas see no self. They however see moments of consciousness and
smallest particles of matter as ultimate. Pratyekabuddhas and
Cittamatrins realise the emptiness of particles but not of moments.
Svatantrika Madhyamaka realises the emptiness of all phenomena and
Prasangika empties the emptiness itself.
Cittamatra explains the relative as mind-stuff while Madhyamaka does not take that stance.
At least thats how I understand it.
Now
Shentongpas of Dolpopa sort backtrack to Thusness stage 4 while those
like Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso seem to say Shentong is just there to
remind that experiental presence/luminosity aspect is important and
should not be denied.
Soh Wei Yu
same as Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. According to him too Cittamatra doesnt lead to 1st Bodhisattva Bhumi.Robert
sure that's how it should work "according to the books", but who ever
really directly realized anatman and momentariness per Shravaka
Abhidharma and then when on realize that form is mind per Cittamatra and
then realize moments and emptiness itself are empty per Madhyamaka? I
strongly suspect the answer is no one, and the idea of ordering tenet
systems like this is purely doxographical. Tyler Jones
you're right but to me the above makes sense based on my experiences
when related to how different views can alter realisations and
experience. Tyler Jones
also my friend went through the 5 stages of meditation on emptiness
program based on the teachings of Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. He relates
that at each level his experience perfectly matched what the program was
pointing to. His conclusion was that this shows how view and experience
are connected.IIRC
KTGR's stages are based on doxographical categories, so are you saying
your friend got full on anatta realization as the first stage?
That would really be something.
Soh Wei Yu
some of the earliest Yogacara texts explicitly accuse the Madhyamaka
view of nihilism, that's something you don't see brought up much when
people try to say that what the early Yogacarins really meant was the
same as Madhyamaka. See Eckel's "Undigested pride: Bhaviveka on the
dispute between Madhyamaka and Yogacara"Author
[8:31
PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: The more vivid, more clear, more blissful, more
convincing of effortless, non-dual luminosity, the more yogacara-like u
become...lol
[8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Since u send me so many articles about madhyamaka...lol
[8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
[8:32 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Madhyamaka, emptiness is to get rid of that.
[8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: To uproot from that.
[8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Get it?
[8:33 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Get rid of what.. seeing the luminous display as real?
[8:34 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: That emphasis...
[8:34 PM, 6/2/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[8:36 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: Because of that uprooting, everything is an illusion despite vivid appearances.
[8:37 PM, 6/2/2020] John Tan: So presence is also empty.
[9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: If u say it is not intrinsic essence, u r saying it conditioned.
[9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah clarity is conditioned, manifestation only
[9:30 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: U need to know what is conditioned...
[9:31
AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Mahamudra, zen, Dzogchen....direct pointing is
to directly authenticate this unconditioned that is unmade.
[9:42
AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not sure what do u mean by unconditioned.. to
me clarity is always manifestation and conditioned, but is unfabricated
[9:42 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Unconditioned means unmade...
[9:43 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[9:43 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: So u must sort out all these issues when studying
[9:44 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Now what exactly is mmk trying to cure...
[9:44 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Otherwise one might err towards over negation
[9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: That is y yogacara mmk and yogacara svatantrika mmk.
[9:45
AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its a bit like taoism.. tao is spontaneous
and unfabricated, but at the same time not an ontological essence more
like flow.. i see luminosity/manifestation/dharma as likewise. But in
terms of D.O and emptiness
[9:45 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: When u say not an ontological essence, what do u mean?
[9:46 AM, 6/3/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Not an unconditioned undying Self or intrinsic essence
[9:46 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: When we use terms like this, we r using it loosely. But when studying mmk, we can't.
[9:47 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: So there r two schools of thoughts, one is the gelug and the rest.
[9:47 AM, 6/3/2020] John Tan: Means the purpose of mmk is to free one from conceptualities...or?
Tyler Jones
hard to say. He had breakthrough to Anatta while studying in Shedra
with the Gelugpas. What trigger the insight for him was the hint that
there is no self that will reincarnate.Doxographical
but they reflect and meditate on each level for months. I've led an
online retreat/course on emptiness and witnessed first hand that
experience meditators can be brought to Anatta in the matter of weeks
(not with 100% efficiency meaning but most of the group) provided they
get the right tools and are dilligent. Of course that's nothing compared
to Pali Canon where we have people bigger achievements like full
Arhatship in similar or shorter spans of time.
Interesting
Just
to contribute to the discussion of “splitting hairs” about what
realizations are achieved by different traditions & views:
here’s
an interesting thread where Geoff Shatz and a few others discuss
commentarial ideas on radical momentariness, mostly pointing towards not
being able to justify such a “momentariness” teaching on the basis of
the early Pāli texts in the first place...
DHAMMAWHEEL.COM
Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really? - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
Cittamatra
doesn't lead to the bhumis, but its founder Asanga is traditionally
claimed to had been on the 3rd bhumi. The 3rd Karmapa used both
approaches (and apparently not hierarchically). Mahamudra is filled with
"mind-only" pointers. Tenets are spiritual techniques reified into
systems.
Svatantrika
and prasangika are supposed to have the exact same ultimate view
(freedom from extremes), only different approaches to both ultimate and
conventional. All this mapping and staging may keep people away from
very valid instructions.
Since
I used the term "splitting hairs" in the first place, I'll clarify that
what I meant was focusing on using just the right language to describe
things rather than the realization that is pointed to. Actually, the
Mipham quote on reddit
Soh Wei Yu
shared addresses exactly what I was thinking about: Yogacara texts say
the dependent nature "exists" and Madhyamikas immediately cry
"eternalism"! But there are two ways to interpret this, and one actually
doesn't contradict the intent of Madhyamaka. 
