Mr. J:

 

Soh:

A site that describes four stages of enlightenment:

SUMMARY Buddhi (Enlightenment) – I AM THAT Self Realization – I AM Jnani – I Satguru – no conceptualization

 

Thusness:

Interesting site...

In most religions and mystical path, the dissolving of the 'Self' is necessary for the experience of the divine. The 'self' is always experienced as the ultimate block that prevents one from experiencing the transcendental. Glimpses of the beyond arise when we are able to go beyond labels and concepts.

I respect her experience but would just like to add some comments:

On the experience of “AMness”:
The key when the ‘I’ drops away lies in “fusing into everything”. Without this experience, it is still resting in “I AM”, there is no breakthrough. Even with the experience of “fusing into all things”, it remains as a stage having an entry and exit point. To experience pathless that is without entry and exit point is where the doctrine of anatta and emptiness steps in.

On the unchanging self:

It is strange that when people want to know their real self, they start looking at relative bunches of ever changing concepts. Reality is that which underlies relativity. Reality is unchanging.
We must ask ourselves: “What is the only unchanging reality of our life? What is the only phenomenon that has never changed since we were born?”
The answer can readily be experienced when we close our eyes and go introspective. It is our sense of BEING. Our I AM-ness. Everybody can always experience the sense that they exist. That inner sense never changes and is there if we are happy, angry, sad, drunk,- whatever. Further, it cannot be localized within any part of the body. It is limitless and experienced by everyone the same way. It is infinite REALITY!

When observing moment to moment changes, it is almost natural to conclude this way. There must be an unchanging observer observing change is a logical deduction. It is the result of the lightning flash changes, logical deduction and memories that create the impression of an unchanging entity. There is continuity, but continuity with an unchanging entity is not necessary.

On feeling lightness and experiencing ‘astral traveling’:

My own experience is that the density of the body seems to change. Years ago I experienced the phenomena of ‘astral traveling.’ During this experience you have the feeling of leaving the coarser body and floating. At some stage you have to return to the body, and the feeling is not very pleasant. You are going from a feeling of freedom and ‘lightness’ back into what feels like cold, dense, clay. This ‘clay’ is the collective emotions, experiences, and holding of the body. After some AMness has fallen away, the body feels lighter and less dense. You just keep feeling lighter and freer.

The “density” and “lightness” is the weight of “losing her identification with certain aspect of the self”. The power of this “identification” cannot be underestimated.
Next is her experience of ‘astral traveling’, if she is in a stage of absorption and then out of a sudden awareness, the eyes of awareness may allow her to witness something that is altogether different from the physical place but this does not necessary mean that ‘consciousness’ has left and re-enter the body. Consciousness is propelled by causes and conditions. According to her conditions of absorption and clarity, just IS.

But then everyone has their own experiences. Just my 2 cents.

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/12/part-2-of-early-forum-posts-by-thusness_3.html


Session Start: Wednesday, July 05, 2006

(6:39 PM) AEN:    seen the new article?
(6:39 PM) AEN:    

SUMMARY

Buddhi (Enlightenment) – I AM  THAT

Self Realization – I AM

Jnani – I

Satguru – no conceptualization
(6:39 PM) AEN:    posted by longchen
(6:39 PM) AEN:    i tink u're best to comment
(6:39 PM) AEN:    hehe
(6:39 PM) John:    :)
(6:40 PM) John:    what is the different between what they said and what i told u?
(6:40 PM) AEN:    wat u said has nothing to do with 'self'
(6:41 PM) John:    they also spoke about dissolving the me and the gradual dissolving of the 'I' then dissolving of the 'AMness'. :)
(6:41 PM) AEN:    anyway how u tink we shld reply casino king in his new thread? lol
(6:42 PM) AEN:    iicc..
(6:42 PM) AEN:    u saw the article already?
(6:42 PM) John:    read the articles carefuly...it is quite interesting. :)
(6:42 PM) AEN:    yea i also read finish
(6:42 PM) AEN:    its said in the last stage
(6:42 PM) AEN:    that the self also dissolves
(6:44 PM) John:    now there it becomes more and more subtle when u enter slowly into the deeper stage of consciousness.  Do read it carefully...and tell me what do u think is different from what i told u.   It is a great article to refine ur understanding. :)
(6:45 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(6:52 PM) AEN:    btw casino king's experience is it in any of the 4 stages? lol
(6:53 PM) John:    u read he is like what stage. :P
(6:53 PM) AEN:    still reading again
(6:53 PM) AEN:    lol
(6:53 PM) AEN:    i tink none of that
(6:53 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:54 PM) John:    lol...got lah..
(6:54 PM) AEN:    1st stage then
(6:54 PM) AEN:    i tink something similar
(6:54 PM) John:    yeah...about there...near to it lah
(6:54 PM) John:    dun say ppl like no substance
(6:54 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(6:54 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:00 PM) AEN:    i tink they dont have emptiness teaching
(7:02 PM) John:    yes but in terms of actual experience?
(7:07 PM) AEN:    there is still an attachment to the 'purest state'?
(7:09 PM) John:    he has already attempted and tried his best to eliminate all attachment.  It is the actual experience. :)
(7:09 PM) AEN:    icic
(7:10 PM) AEN:    it is not extended to all the senses?
(7:10 PM) John:    and what else?
(7:11 PM) John:    what is the purpose of extending it to the rest of the six senses?
(7:12 PM) AEN:    to experience spontaneous self-arising?
(7:12 PM) John:    read the article, didn't it tok about spontaneous self-arising?
(7:13 PM) AEN:    maybe only the thought realm
(7:13 PM) John:    did u read the part regarding spontaneous arising?
(7:14 PM) AEN:    tink so
(7:17 PM) AEN:    ?
(7:21 PM) John:    u can ask casino_king can he know what God is?
(7:35 PM) AEN:    back
(7:35 PM) AEN:    ok
(7:36 PM) AEN:    hmm u seriously do not tink wat?
(7:36 PM) AEN:    that the woman is krishnamurti's heir?
(7:36 PM) John:    yes. :)
(7:36 PM) AEN:    oic how come
(7:38 PM) John:    that is just my personal opinion.  I think she follows K's teaching, but not as what you mentioned spiritual heir.  I read some of the written articles, I do not think so. :)
(7:43 PM) AEN:    oic.. okie
(7:46 PM) John:    big 3?
(7:46 PM) John:    :P
(7:47 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
    Casino_King,

    Can you know what God is?

According to whom? The big 3 think of God as Spirit.

So, according to Buddhist teaching, what is REAL?
(7:47 PM) AEN:    big 3?
(7:48 PM) AEN:    christianity, islam, hindu?
(7:48 PM) AEN:    no ideas.
(7:48 PM) John:    hahaah....why christianity, islam and hindu are the big 3. :P  Buddhism must be the small 4.
(7:48 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(7:52 PM) AEN:    http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=198043&page=1
(7:52 PM) AEN:    To tell you the truth , there was a duration of time where i can really see them in flashing images . Which means i can see them in flashing images like those flashes from cameras but not very clear though . So perhaps during that time i was too stressed and exchausted and always beside them so maybe sort of absorb their chi without knowing .
But during that time i really can see them a few times once when i was in a pub with my friend when i suddenly have this feeling of them being come to check on me n i can see them walking in through the door only to disappear after walking past me to the counter . The second time was i was in the middle of the session where i have a feeling the hei wu chang coming and even able to see him walking towards my direction . And not long afterwards the bai wu chang left the medium body and hei wu chang possed the medium body to tok .
So whats the conclusion ? Do i need to seek treatment although no i longer see them with my eye ?
(7:54 PM) John:    Don't have to answer him. :)
(7:54 PM) AEN:    haha ok
(7:54 PM) AEN:    y
(7:54 PM) John:    don't tell u. :P
(7:54 PM) AEN:    huh
(7:54 PM) AEN:    lol
(7:56 PM) John:    If I were to ask you to sort out the link that is posted by longchen what that is being stated is true experience and what are mere concepts, r u able to do it?
(7:57 PM) AEN:    i dunno leh cos i no true experience
(7:57 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(7:58 PM) John:    u should tell casino_king, u came in to join in and like him to ask question. :P
(7:58 PM) AEN:    huh?
(7:58 PM) John:    means like him only ask question lor.
(7:58 PM) John:    and asking the question is to guide him. :P
(7:58 PM) John:    lol
(7:59 PM) AEN:    so i change to 'i came to ask you to ask something'? :S
(8:00 PM) John:    nope...what i meant is, just like hiim, ur purpose is not to tell the answer, but to ask question so as to lead him to find out for himself. :P  This is what he said right?...hehee
(8:00 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(8:00 PM) AEN:    hehe
(8:04 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    I did not join in the discussion to answer your question.

    I came to ask something.

According to the big 3, God is spirit and in their scriptures, you have many desciptions of encounters with God.

The totality of these encounters do not make up God but it does show that God interacts with people. While nobody knows what God is (what is Spirit?) people do have a glimpse of God.

So what is REAL as taught by Buddhism?

Maybe this question is too difficult for the Buddhists here to answer as the "What is Empty?" question had shown.

I do hope that as Buddhists you will discover the answer.
(8:06 PM) John:    Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, i am unable to discuss with you, unless u do 3 things....I go makan first....
(8:07 PM) John:    first thing
(8:07 PM) AEN:    u post or i post
(8:07 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:08 PM) John:    r u able to forgot whatever is being discussed and go back to what that is born spiritually.
(8:08 PM) John:    not even a trace in ur mind. :P
(8:09 PM) AEN:    so i ask him "Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?"
(8:09 PM) AEN:    ok then?
(8:09 PM) AEN:    btw u post or i post
(8:09 PM) AEN:    u post la
(8:18 PM) John:    back
(8:18 PM) John:    :)
(8:18 PM) John:    lol
(8:18 PM) John:    buddhism like nobody. :P
(8:19 PM) John:    because of his condition, he will not be able to understand the profound teachiing of emptiness.
(8:19 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:19 PM) John:    i have already taught u when emptiness should step in
(8:20 PM) John:    the 3 level of presence
(8:20 PM) John:    but u did not refine ur understanding.
(8:20 PM) John:    first all discussion must be forgotten
(8:20 PM) John:    it can start from anywhere if he is in the correct path
(8:21 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:21 PM) John:    tell him to seriously look into the link that longchen posted, that is the second thing he must do.
(8:22 PM) John:    3 and most important of all, he must be sincere and stop useless pretense
(8:22 PM) AEN:    pretense?
(8:22 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:22 PM) John:    :P
(8:22 PM) AEN:    ya tats wat longchen said also
(8:22 PM) AEN:    wat he pretending
(8:22 PM) John:    how can anyone tell him anything...
(8:22 PM) John:    isn't it a waste of time eh?
(8:23 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:24 PM) John:    a person that truly knows is completely clear.  He knows the stages and is thorough.
(8:24 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:24 PM) John:    The depth of the clarity itself, how can one bullshit about ones clarity
(8:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:25 PM) John:    what that can be intuitively grasped when spoken worth not even a cent. :)
(8:25 PM) John:    it becomes knowledge and yet this form of knowledge is still precious for one that is truly sincere.
(8:26 PM) John:    but when one isn't sincere, he knows nothing
(8:26 PM) John:    till now, do u sense the condition that he will know?
(8:26 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:26 PM) John:    it isn't right yet. :)
(8:26 PM) AEN:    sense the condition that he will start to understand?
(8:26 PM) AEN:    i tink dont tink so
(8:27 PM) John:    yes he is egoistic but he is putting all his effort to know something profound, he knows it.
(8:27 PM) John:    so some time i spoke a lil but only when the condition is right. :)
(8:28 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:28 PM) John:    he attempted to understand
(8:28 PM) John:    emptiness but have no idea of the application
(8:28 PM) John:    do not know where to step in
(8:28 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:28 PM) John:    u must be able to see that
(8:28 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:29 PM) John:    why because he is only at the first level...close to it.
(8:30 PM) John:    unlike others, i never said he doesn't know anything....rather i told u he has some experiences.  :)
(8:30 PM) AEN:    oic...
(8:31 PM) John:    but at present i know he can't understand emptiness, only theoretically
(8:31 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:31 PM) John:    at least longchen is stepping into anatta
(8:32 PM) John:    and then he has to extend it the rest of the six senses that i always said though i did not explicitly emphasize. :)
(8:32 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:32 PM) John:    before the profound meaning of emptiness can be appreciated.
(8:32 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:32 PM) John:    i told u that is the second level right?going int
(8:32 PM) AEN:    ya
(8:33 PM) John:    before true spontaneous arising, the unconditioned can be known.
(8:33 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:33 PM) John:    isn't all at this first level and attempting to go beyond?
(8:34 PM) John:    most of those that are posted and links...they are so.
(8:34 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:34 PM) John:    u must feel it urself. :)
(8:34 PM) AEN:    u mean longchen's link?
(8:34 PM) John:    most links that are not really buddhist
(8:34 PM) AEN:    orh icic
(8:34 PM) AEN:    ok
(8:34 PM) AEN:    btw advaita got reach the longchen's link's 4th level?
(8:34 PM) AEN:    level
(8:35 PM) John:    what are the levels that are real and what are the levels that are extrapolated is important. :)
(8:36 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:36 PM) AEN:    so its merely an extension
(8:36 PM) John:    when u hear ur master or chen ming an master teach, din he tok about the 3 level of presence?
(8:36 PM) AEN:    but hmm but isnt the 4th stage talking about no-self without falling back to 'I AM'? isnt it quite different from Advaita?
(8:36 PM) John:    i will tell u later the mistake. :P
(8:37 PM) AEN:    eh? teacher chen arh... not sure leh... maybe in indirect way
(8:37 PM) John:    but don't take my words, just take it as a form of knowledge.
(8:37 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:38 PM) John:    the 3 level of presence i told u is to allow you to understand exactly where it should step in.
(8:38 PM) AEN:    icic..
(8:39 PM) John:    what are the ppl so confused about the "I AMness" and exactly where it steps in and leading to what....this is for the convenience of explanation so that those non-buddhists can appreciate the Blessed One's teaching. :)
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:40 PM) John:    and when I tell u, i want u to experience it.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:40 PM) John:    so that u know when to apply what medicine. :P
(8:40 PM) AEN:    ok
(8:41 PM) John:    when i tell u the riddle of the zen master conversation, it is not meant to be told, but what i want is to let u know ur friends stage when he is not there.  So that u will not be confused.
(8:42 PM) AEN:    oic ok
(8:42 PM) John:    but the important aspect has not gone into ur mind yet. :P
(8:42 PM) AEN:    ?
(8:42 PM) John:    otherwise u would be able to answer me when i asked u what the link's lack.
(8:42 PM) John:    and where is the problem
(8:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:43 PM) AEN:    so wats their problem
(8:43 PM) John:    when your friend writes poem and the poems of those that truly experience, what is the diff?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    eh brb
(8:44 PM) AEN:    back
(8:44 PM) AEN:    which friend?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    u mean from my dharma centre?
(8:44 PM) John:    the email u posted me
(8:44 PM) AEN:    'fei you fei kong' - 2 articles
(8:44 PM) AEN:    rite
(8:45 PM) John:    yeah
(8:45 PM) AEN:    u said he wasnt speaking in terms of ultimate reality
(8:45 PM) AEN:    or theoretical
(8:45 PM) John:    yes
(8:45 PM) John:    what are the poems of those of that truly experience like?
(8:46 PM) AEN:    erm.. u said... he will talk about things like... keyboard sounding
(8:46 PM) AEN:    lol
(8:46 PM) AEN:    hmm but i tink my friend has some kind of awakening experience?
(8:47 PM) AEN:    i never ask him la but i tink so
(8:47 PM) John:    yeah...like casino_king but more humble. :P
(8:47 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:47 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:48 PM) John:    read Soen-sa experience (Soh: see http://www.buddhanet.net/masters/soen-sa.htm)
(8:48 PM) AEN:    so u mean my fren experience the same 'life force' thing?
(8:48 PM) John:    yet his is not stable yet
(8:48 PM) AEN:    soen-sa? seung sahn?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:48 PM) AEN:    what is not stable?
(8:48 PM) John:    that level is already beyond 1 going into 2  (note by Soh: not referring to 7 thusness stages. In his earlier definition, 1 is I AMness, 2 is anatta and emptiness, 3 is unconditional spontaneous presence)
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:49 PM) AEN:    which one
(8:49 PM) John:    the luminosity is clear and correct
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:49 PM) John:    yet his master told him to be silent for 3 years
(8:49 PM) AEN:    icic
(8:49 PM) John:    the mind that is pre-occupied cannot perceive his master's intention
(8:49 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:50 PM) John:    u know what is the problem of the link now?
(8:50 PM) AEN:    wat is it
(8:51 PM) John:    what is lacking...
(8:51 PM) John:    think...u should know
(8:53 PM) John:    what is the diff between what is posted and those zen masters' poems
(8:53 PM) AEN:    true experience, theoretical?
(8:53 PM) John:    yes but what is the true experience like?
(8:54 PM) AEN:    experiencing the presence in everything without self
(8:54 PM) John:    yes! fusing into everything....
(8:55 PM) John:    the tennis court....the drum beats of the foot step
(8:55 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:55 PM) John:    that clarity breaks the first level into the 2nd
(8:55 PM) AEN:    icic how come
(8:55 PM) John:    the luminosity of the mirror bright
(8:55 PM) AEN:    u mean by experiencing that one will immediately realise Emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John:    wait...what is the differences between that and emptiness?
(8:56 PM) John:    sorry i mean "AMness"
(8:57 PM) John:    the clarity of zen masters enlightenment and "AMness"
(8:57 PM) AEN:    amness is still attached to a state of purity? not completely fuse into everything?
(8:58 PM) John:    yes...has the zen master not demonstrated in their lives about the luminous clarity in all things that came into contact?
(8:59 PM) John:    is there a self?
(8:59 PM) John:    there is only the everything
(8:59 PM) John:    where is the 'Self'?
(8:59 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:59 PM) AEN:    but hmm
(9:00 PM) AEN:    i tot u also said b4, when one experiences the 'i am' when 6 senses are widely open, one will experience it as 'i am all'. isnt that also sort of fusing into everything?
(9:00 PM) John:    yes....and zen masters might have the danger of that too....
(9:01 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:01 PM) John:    so luminosity is not nature
(9:01 PM) John:    what is it?
(9:01 PM) AEN:    emptiness?
(9:01 PM) John:    yes
(9:01 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:01 PM) John:    it is anatta...now this, now that, always changing and ungraspable
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:02 PM) John:    the ungraspable is anatta manifestation.
(9:02 PM) John:    it is seen in all
(9:02 PM) John:    in everything
(9:02 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:02 PM) John:    if u return and want to rest in the 'Self', instead of gaining, u lost everything
(9:02 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:03 PM) John:    the nature is anatta, there is no self
(9:03 PM) John:    understand?
(9:03 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:04 PM) John:    now when one understand this, he lays the foundation of stabilizing this in "everything" experience
(9:04 PM) John:    because he is not returning to the "AMness"
(9:04 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:04 PM) John:    he is not confused anymore
(9:04 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:05 PM) John:    he finds it in all things without returning...though ungraspable, it is always seized at the moment.
(9:05 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:05 PM) John:    and how it arise? this is, that is
(9:05 PM) John:    emptiness
(9:05 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:06 PM) John:    so i said extend it to the six senses, presence without self
(9:06 PM) John:    sound without hearer
(9:06 PM) John:    scenery without seer
(9:06 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:06 PM) John:    everything to experience and understand anatta
(9:07 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:07 PM) John:    so that "AMness" presence is experienced in all moment without the need to fall back.
(9:07 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:07 PM) John:    how could there be movement then?
(9:08 PM) John:    it is just arising and ceasing
(9:08 PM) John:    because there is no moment that is not so.
(9:08 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:08 PM) AEN:    ya
(9:08 PM) AEN:    that is not wat?
(9:09 PM) John:    that is not arising and ceasing according to conditions and causes
(9:09 PM) John:    emptiness
(9:09 PM) John:    this must be understood after clarity
(9:09 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:10 PM) John:    but there cannot be any movement, because there is no moment that is not like that
(9:10 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:11 PM) John:    then from this complete clarity, emptiness, no movement, yet everything wonderfully arises and ceases, one experiences the spontaneous arising, the self-so, the unconditioned
(9:11 PM) John:    then there is true insight.
(9:11 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:11 PM) John:    then karma will make sense
(9:12 PM) John:    because of arising without self
(9:12 PM) John:    arises with causes and condition without self
(9:12 PM) John:    therefore be serious about the deeds
(9:12 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:13 PM) John:    in "AMness", how does karma step in?
(9:13 PM) John:    he will be confused because "AMness" in its ultimate sense is a controller.
(9:13 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:14 PM) John:    all these are words, it is the true experience that is most crucial.
(9:14 PM) AEN:    but hmm... i read dzogchen texts also speaks of the 'Source'
(9:15 PM) AEN:    but in that context it isnt meant to be 'controller' rite?
(9:15 PM) John:    i do not like to use the word source...ehehhe
(9:15 PM) John:    just like 'Self'...
(9:15 PM) John:    :P
(9:15 PM) AEN:    oic but dzogchen talks about it quite often
(9:15 PM) AEN:    lol
(9:15 PM) John:    depends on who tok also. :P
(9:15 PM) AEN:    haha why
(9:15 PM) AEN:    there is this famous dzogchen book 'The Supreme Source'
(9:16 PM) AEN:    i read a bit last time in bookstore
(9:16 PM) John:    ic....good?
(9:16 PM) AEN:    quite gd la but a bit deep hahah
(9:16 PM) AEN:    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1559391200/102-2875363-8821705?v=glance&n=283155
(9:17 PM) John:    just practice clarity...it is enough :)
(9:17 PM) AEN:    okie
(9:21 PM) John:    have u heard of upasika kee?
(9:21 PM) AEN:    nope
(9:21 PM) AEN:    what about her
(9:21 PM) John:    she is a lay but masters of many monks and nuns.  Very dedicated practitioner
(9:22 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:22 PM) John:    there is a book pure and simple, compiled by her disciple.
(9:22 PM) John:    quite good.
(9:22 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:22 PM) John:    u might want to take a look.
(9:22 PM) AEN:    okie
(9:23 PM) John:    true practitioner experience is so hard to find nowadays.
(9:23 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:24 PM) John:    what prevents the mirror bright consciousness?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    delusions..?
(9:24 PM) AEN:    ignorance, defilements, etc
(9:24 PM) John:    hehehe...i prefer individuality, personality, self
(9:25 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:25 PM) AEN:    haha
(9:25 PM) AEN:    personality is bad?
(9:25 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by personality
(9:26 PM) John:    personality is the product of culture, education and traditions...etc
(9:26 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:26 PM) John:    it is not 'bad'
(9:26 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:27 PM) John:    to be enlightened, one has to do away even the conventional 'good'
(9:27 PM) John:    otherwise we cannot understand the reality of consciousness.
(9:27 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:27 PM) AEN:    how to do away
(9:28 PM) John:    do u know what is the biggest problem of consciousness so far?
(9:29 PM) John:    it just identify when it cannot feel its presence
(9:29 PM) AEN:    identification, self
(9:29 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:29 PM) John:    yes
(9:29 PM) John:    identification has tremendous power...u will not understand what i meant now.
(9:29 PM) AEN:    icic
(9:30 PM) John:    like a spell that prevents us from seeing
(9:30 PM) John:    take casino_king for example, why can't he see?
(9:30 PM) John:    something really strong is bonding right?
(9:31 PM) AEN:    yea
(9:31 PM) AEN:    btw he just replied
(9:31 PM) AEN:    hehehe
(9:31 PM) John:    lol
(9:31 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

    Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, I am unable to discuss with you, unless you do 3 things:

    1) Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?

    2) Seriously look into the link that Longchen posted. Interesting site about stages of progress

    3) Most important of all, you must be sincere and stop useless pretense.

If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience?
(9:31 PM) John:    :)
(9:32 PM) John:    an experience that he can't understand. :P
(9:32 PM) AEN:    hahahah
(9:35 PM) John:    ahhaa...
(9:38 PM) AEN:    so how ? hahaha
(9:39 PM) John:    until the seed arises otherwise, even buddha can't help. :)
(9:39 PM) John:    if the mind can be seen, defined, anatta will have no meaning.
(9:40 PM) AEN:    icic

(9:43 PM) John:    i will be traceless in time to come.
(9:43 PM) AEN:    ?
(9:44 PM) John:    though i think buddhism presents the most profound teaching.
(9:44 PM) John:    i prefer taoist style. :)
(9:44 PM) AEN:    ?
(9:44 PM) John:    too much have already been said, taught, written.
(9:45 PM) AEN:    my shi fu say lao tzu is a pratyekabuddha.. haha
(9:45 PM) AEN:    tats y he din teach :P
(9:45 PM) John:    yes. :)
(9:45 PM) AEN:    so u wan to be pratyekabuddha arh
(9:45 PM) John:    don't think i am so sut. :P
(9:46 PM) John:    without Buddha's teaching, I will be stuck in "AMness and Everything"
(9:46 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:46 PM) AEN:    sut = ?
(9:47 PM) John:    outstanding. :)
(9:47 PM) AEN:    orh kk
(9:48 PM) John:    i sincerely hope longchen can going beyond his experience and get true authentication.
(9:48 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:50 PM) John:    hahaha
(9:50 PM) John:    casino_king...blur liao
(9:50 PM) John:    already said ask only wat
(9:51 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(9:53 PM) John:    Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers. :)
(9:54 PM) John:    If people sense his sincerity, there will definitely be contributors.  Even there is no consensus, there will be true gain.
(9:54 PM) AEN:    icic..

(10:11 PM) AEN:        quote:-Originally posted by An Eternal Now:


    Question

    I think you blur liao. See my previous post.

Like I said, you are trying to avoid the difficult questions.

Does Buddhism say anything about what is REAL?
(10:12 PM) John:    what is real is becoming. (Soh: also see Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/10/sun-of-awareness-and-river-of.html)
(10:13 PM) John:    sinweiy replied....added additional condition
(10:14 PM) John:    he must struggle till sincerity arise
(10:14 PM) AEN:    added additional condition?
(10:14 PM) John:    casino_king's mind must be led to silence
(10:15 PM) John:    knowledge will only confuse him further.
(10:15 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:15 PM) John:    otherwise why u wouldn't have told him to empty all that he has learnt
(10:16 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:17 PM) John:    the understanding of the "spirit", the living force within must come to the challenge
(10:18 PM) John:    to fully understand what that is being experienced, let him say out this experience first...
(10:18 PM) John:    this life force that is working within him.
(10:18 PM) John:    it is so real.
(10:18 PM) John:    full of life.
(10:19 PM) John:    it is his entire beingness
(10:19 PM) John:    he must bring it out...
(10:19 PM) AEN:    icic...
(10:19 PM) John:    and be sincere and humble.
(10:19 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:20 PM) John:    Only a genuine heart can attract genuine answers.
(10:20 PM) John:    I hope he can reach this point.
(10:21 PM) John:    and let longchen lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:22 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:22 PM) AEN:    then u leh? :P
(10:23 PM) AEN:    as in lead him towards deeper understanding
(10:23 PM) AEN:    haha
(10:23 PM) John:    u lead him. :)
(10:23 PM) AEN:    oh i lead him with ur words :P
(10:23 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(10:23 PM) John:    with those that i have told u, it is sufficent. :)
(10:24 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:25 PM) John:    seeds can be planted but there is no fruition, it can take many years
(10:26 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:29 PM) John:    what is the difference between "no individuality and impersonality" and the way Buddhaghosa describe no-self?
(10:30 PM) AEN:    no individuality refers to the mind realm ceasing of self-perception but does not speak of the presence of fusing into everything
(10:30 PM) AEN:    ?
(10:31 PM) John:    not bad. :)  I will add a lil more.
(10:31 PM) AEN:    ok
(10:32 PM) John:    the idea of process, change isn't inside
(10:33 PM) John:    and how non-dual is understood as a flow, that in actuality there is no 'entity', only flow
(10:33 PM) John:    means there is no nouns but always verbs (Soh: see http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind, and also Choosing http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/choosing.html)
(10:33 PM) John:    and how non-dual is linked to it
(10:33 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:35 PM) John:    the misconception and individuality is of taking a process and 'identifying' it as an 'entity' through confusion of language and symbolic structures
(10:35 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:36 PM) John:    when one tries to losing individuality and say that consciousness is impersonal, there is just a snap shot of the experience....it is not a form of thorough understanding or a deep insight of the truth.
(10:37 PM) AEN:    oic
(10:38 PM) John:    so true non-dual must come from such insight as described in Buddhaghosa poem. :) (see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/05/no-self-no-doer-conditionality.html )
(10:38 PM) AEN:    icic
(10:39 PM) John:    i spoke many times about non-dual and said even one has entered non-dual does not necessary understand anatta and emptiness, this is what i meant.

 

• https://www.reddit.com/.../yogachara_mind_only_nondual.../

  nyanasagara

  ·

  2d

  mahayana

  I was wondering how this relates to Yogachara. If reality is non-dual, and if it is mind-only, then how is it not the same? I guess I don't understand how reality could be composed of multiple mind streams that are interconnected without that all just being activity in awareness.

  Śāntarakṣita and Kamalaśīla have an interesting take on this. I'll just copy and paste Jha's translation here for you to read. I'm not sure how much I agree with it, but it certainly is intriguing. Śāntarakṣita's root text will be bolded and Kamalaśīla's commentary will not be.

  The error in the view of these philosophers is a slight one,—due only to the assertion of eternality (of cognition); as diversity is clearly perceived in the cognitions of colour, sound and other things.—If all these cognitions were one, then, colour, sound, taste and other things would be cognisable all at once; as in an eternal entity there can be no different states.—(330-331)

  ‘The error is a slight one’;—as they postulate only Cognition (Consciousness, as the only entity), which is quite reasonable.

  “If that is so, then what is even the ‘slight error’ in their view?”

  It is due to the assertion of ‘eternality’,

  “But why should not the acceptance of ‘eternality’ be reasonable?”

  Answer—Diversity is clearly perceived etc. etc.;—‘Eternality’ connotes remaining in the same state always, and ‘non-eternality’ connotes not remaining in the same state always; and as a matter of fact, the Cognition that manifests (apprehends) Colour, Sound and other things is not found to be in one and the same state always;—actually it appears at one time as manifesting Colour and at another time, as manifesting Sound and other things, in a certain order of sequence. Under the circumstances, if all these things, Sound and the rest, were manifested by a single Eternal Cognition, then all of them would appear (be Cognised) simultaneously, like the bedspread of variegated colours; as the Cognition manifesting them would (ex hypothesi) be always there.

  It may be held that “the Cognition of Sound and other things are different ‘states’ of it appearing one after the other,—so that the apprehension of Sound etc. could not be simultaneous”.

  The answer to this is—‘In an Eternal Entity there can be no different states’;—because the ‘states’ are not different from the Entity to which they belong; so that the Entity to which the states belong would be liable to ‘production and destruction’,—appearance and disappearance,—in the same way as the States are liable; or, conversely, the states also would be eternal, like the Entity to which they belong.—If, on the other hand, the states are different from the entity to which they belong, then there can be no idea of the states belonging to this entity; as there is no benefit conferred by the one on the other; and this alternative (of the states being different from the Cognitions) would also be contrary to the doctrine that the eternal Cognition is the only one Entity.—(330-331)

  Further, if the Eternal Cognition existed, it could be known either through Perception or through Inference; that it cannot be known through Perception is shown in the following—[see verse 332 next]

  Cognition or consciousness is never apprehended as anything distinct from the cognitions of colour and other things; and inasmuch as these latter undergo variations every moment, what remains there that could be lasting (permanent, eternal)?—(332)

  

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  Yogachara / Mind Only, Non-Dual, and the Other

  Yogachara / Mind Only, Non-Dual, and the Other
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As a matter of fact, apart from the Cognitions of Colour etc., which appear one after the other, we do not apprehend, any lasting Consciousness, eternal and one,—whereby it could be held to be known through Perception.—Then, inasmuch as it is well known that the Cognitions of Colour and otherngs are apprehended one after the other, and are destroyed every moment—it has to be explained what remains there that is non-different from those Cognitions? Thus, inasmuch as there is no apprehension of any such Cognition, which would be apprehended if it were there,—it cannot but be regarded as ‘non-existent This is what the Text means.
Nor can it be held that the said Eternal Cognition is known through Inference. Because such an Inference would be based either upon the nature of the Cognition itself, or upon that of its effects. It cannot he the former, as there is nothing which can prove that such is the nature of the said Eternal Cognition; on the contrary, there is Perception itself which precludes any such notion.
Thus the doctrine that ‘the world is the illusory modification of the Eternal Consciousness’ is not right.—(332)
Then again, under this doctrine, the notions of ‘Bondage’ and ‘Liberation’ are not possible.—This is what is shown in the following—[see verse 333 next]
There can be no distinction in cognition as ‘wrong’ and ‘right’—if the ‘soul’ consists of a single (eternal) cognition; how then can there be any ‘bondage’ and ‘liberation’?—(333)
For one who holds the view that—Cognition is in perpetual flux, different with different persons, undergoing variations in a series,—the notion of ‘Bondage and Liberation’ is quite reasonable, as being due to the coming about of a series of cognitions, wrong and right; and through the practice of yoga, gradually purer and purer Cognitions coming about, the series of impure cognitions cease and the final Aim (of Liberation) is attained; and thus the attempt at Liberation becomes fruitful.—For you, on the other hand, the ‘Soul’ is of the nature of one Eternal Cognition; how then can there be any ‘Bondage’ and ‘Liberation’ for such a Soul? Because if the one Cognition is eternally wrong, then, as there could be no other state for it, there could be no possibility of ‘Liberation’; on the other hand, if the one Cognition were eternally right, then as it would be always pure, there could be no ‘Bondage’.—As regards our doctrine, the Cognition is held to be defective (wrong) or pure (right), in accordance with the varying character of the Series (in which it appears), and hence the notion of ‘Bondage and Liberation’ is entirely reasonable. This has been thus declared—‘Cognition is defective and free from defects, beset with impurities and free from impurities; if it were never impure, then all embodied beings would be always liberated; if it were never pure, then the attempt to secure Liberation would be fruitless’.—(333)
What could the mystic set aside or accomplish by the practice of yoga? What too is there that could be rejected? As wrong cognition also is of the nature of the same (eternal cognition).—The knowledge of truth also cannot be something to be brought about; as, being of the nature of cognition, it is always there.—So that the entire practice of yoga also is entirely fruitless.—(334-335)
If it be held that ‘Bondage and Liberation are only assumed, not real’;—then it becomes necessary to explain the basis of this assumption. What this basis is under the doctrine of ‘Cognitions being non-eternal’ has been shown above. Thus the Effort—in the form of the contemplation of Truth,—that you put forth for the attaining of the ‘Ultimate Aim’ and for passing beyond the cycle of Birth and Death, can only lead to futile fatigue.—This is shown in the following—[see verses 334-335 above]
If, by the contemplation of Truth, the Mystic could set aside, or bring about, anything, then his Effort would be fruitful. As it is however, he can never set aside Wrong Cognition, because it is of the nature of the same,—i.e. of the nature of Eternal Cognition.—For the same reason it cannot be rejected; because what is eternal cannot be destructible and hence its rejection is impossible.—How can the Yogin accomplish—bring about—the Knowledge of Truth? Being of the nature of Eternal Cognition, the Knowledge of Truth would be always there.—Thus the doctrine in question cannot be right.—(334-335)
That is the section on the relationship between Yogācāra and the Advaitin view in Tattvasaṃgrahapañjikā, composed by Śāntarakṣita and his student Kamalaśīla, a work generally taken to be written from a Yogācāra point of view (though both were actually followers of Madhyamaka in their final analysis, holding Yogācāra to have instrumental value).
10

 
Session Start: Saturday, May 09, 2009

(6:37 PM) AEN:    hi u there?
(6:37 PM) Thusness:    yes
going to watch star trek later. :)
(6:37 PM) AEN:    oic
Sunyata Mu said:

Basically from my birth to about somewhere in my thirties there was a belief that I was the thoughts.
This belief that I was the thoughts led to a situation which was basically 'out of control'. I believed I was the thoughts, so basically I was trapped on a roller coaster ride with them. There was no place to sit back from them... I was a slave to them and a victim of them.
(6:38 PM) AEN:    So, when the realisation occured that I was the witnessing of the thoughts (...what I would call 'awakening' ) then there was some space from them.

I'd discovered a deeper part of me which I could abide in and just watch the thoughts pass by. There was then a freedom from the thoughts. They could be grabbed or let go. The slavery to them had been broken. To get to this point it was very useful to see the thoughts as 'not me' and to see them for what they actually are... dead symbols.
This awakening then opened up the next step of the 'journey'. It went from 'the witness' (which is seen as a separate self which is witnessing)....           to 'the witnessing', which is non-personal. 'The witnessing' is like the 'one witnessing' in a dream. All of the dream
characters have the same witnessing flowing through them. They seem separate, but it's the same witnessing (awareness) flowing through them all.

So, now that the deepest part of 'me' had been realised I could now begin to reclaim the world of thought.
(6:38 PM) AEN:    
An analogy would be.... I am the sun. But I didn't realise that I was the sun. I thought that I was the suns' rays and was oblivious to the fact that there was a sun which was emanating those rays. I then realised that my deepest self (the bit that the rays depend on to exist) was the
sun. So I 'awakened' to the fact that the sun was there, and that it was my deepest self. And now that I realise that I am the sun I can safely take back ownership of the rays. Sure I am the rays.... but now there is also the realisation that I am the sun.

So, now, there is a realisation that at one end there is pure non-personal witnessing. At the other end there is the world of thoughts. And now there is a freedom to move between the two. Before, there was just a stuckness in the thoughts.... that was the only possibility.
Now there is a free movement between the two.  ( And yes, they are not actually 2, they are like the sun and its rays.... which are actually one.)
(6:39 PM) Thusness:    yes
(6:40 PM) Thusness:    but the deeper realization is that witness and the thought is flat. :)
(6:40 PM) Thusness:    both are dust; don't differentiate.  This is the profound truth of emptiness.
(6:40 PM) AEN:    wat u mean witness and thought is flat
(6:41 PM) AEN:    btw what he said is nonduality rite
(6:41 PM) Thusness:    there is no hierarchy.
(6:41 PM) AEN:    oic
(6:41 PM) Thusness:    Yes.
(6:41 PM) Thusness:    When we first experienced eternal witness, there is this awakening to the real you.
(6:42 PM) Thusness:    But we are still unable to separate from the subtle idea of 'you' from pristineness
(6:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:42 PM) Thusness:    then non-dual comes.  That's the observer and the observed.
This is the beginning of non-duality
(6:43 PM) Thusness:    one must penetrate very deeply into non-dual.
(6:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
so what he described here is still witness or like non dual?
(6:44 PM) Thusness:    Then comes the realization that absolute and relative are really inseparable
(6:44 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:44 PM) Thusness:    then till one day we are so clear about the layer of tendencies that affect our thinking mechanism.
(6:45 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:45 PM) Thusness:    When we re-examine the experiences, insights of non-duality without the subtle influences due to the neutralization with the arising of prajna wisdom (dependent origination)
(6:46 PM) Thusness:    we begin to understand how the dualistic and inherent view distort our understanding with much deeper clarity
experience then move from non-dual to anatta and emptiness
(6:47 PM) Thusness:    eventually the background, the transience are simply same level.  The absolute that is so dear to us becomes flat.  Emptiness flattens all.
(6:47 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:48 PM) Thusness:    That is why i said it is the last mark, last trace that must be further purified by emptiness.
(6:48 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:48 PM) Thusness:    email me this conversation...
(6:49 PM) Thusness:    my keyboard keys spoilt...jump here and there
then close this window...ahaha
(6:49 PM) Thusness:    when we talk about the natural state, if we have not reached this clarity of insight, we will not be able to be truly natural.
Because there is a center.  Not all are centers...
(6:50 PM) Thusness:    that center is the grasping, the more special.
how natural can that be?
(6:50 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:50 PM) Thusness:    This last mark must be clearly seen.
(6:50 PM) AEN:    btw i remember u said regarding the sun analogy:
Yes Sinweiy,

The Buddha out of infinite compassion spoke the lucid luminosity, the unconditioned Obviousness, the pure. But the self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place.
No where to be found. This is the Tatagatha Nature. Smile
(6:51 PM) Thusness:    conditions and luminosity = appearances
(6:51 PM) Thusness:    this is DO
this is not relative and absolute
don't mistaken relative as conditions
(6:52 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:52 PM) Thusness:    relative is the transience.
the appearance
this is the subject-object view
luminosity and conditions are DO
(6:52 PM) Thusness:    in DO, there is only appearances
all are flat
equally pure
that is why replaced the inherent and dualistic view with DO.  That is the right view.
(6:53 PM) Thusness:    To orientate and articulate with the right view
(6:53 PM) Thusness:    then when experience comes, it will not be distorted
insight will arise.
(6:53 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:53 PM) Thusness:    When I talk about insight, i am talking about anatta and DO.
get it?
(6:54 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:55 PM) Thusness:    u will see Advaita and Vedanta sees the absolute.  The non-dual experience is there but there is the hierarchy that the Absolute is high above.
(6:55 PM) Thusness:    in Buddhism, even the Absolute is closely examined.  Nothing substantial, as empty. :)
(6:55 PM) AEN:    oic..
(6:56 PM) Thusness:    Seeing its nature, one realized the truth of luminous yet empty.  All is just like an illusion but not an illusion.
like a dream but not a dream.
(6:56 PM) Thusness:    merely magical display
(6:56 PM) AEN:    icic..
(6:56 PM) Thusness:    This is stage six
(6:57 PM) Thusness:    then is the realization that all these realizations are already so before beginning. :)

(6:58 PM) AEN:    ok
btw john astin just posted this in his blog i posted in the forum also: To remain or abide as awareness does not mean we get into some state called “awareness” and then find a way to remain in that state. To remain as awareness is to simply recognize that all states and experiences are the continuous flow of awareness.
(7:02 PM) Thusness:    yes...very good.
(7:03 PM) Thusness:    this is attempting to use dualistic mode of expression to express.
and there is subtle influences even one is clear and is able to trace the differences.
(7:03 PM) Thusness:    but due to the effects of the tendencies, we cannot have that clarity
(7:04 PM) AEN:    oic
u mean that expression is still dualistic?
(7:05 PM) Thusness:    not exactly
(7:05 PM) Thusness:    what i meant is it is very difficult to have the clarity
(7:06 PM) Thusness:    from john astin words, he spotted the difference but it is very difficult to have thorough clarity of DO when using dualistic framework.
get it?
(7:06 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:07 PM) Thusness:    i got to go.
(7:07 PM) AEN:    ok.. cya
(7:07 PM) Thusness:    goldisheavy already have insight into the 2fold emptiness
(7:08 PM) AEN:    he just posted something?
hmm
wat u mean by insight
(7:08 PM) Thusness:    i just read his posts.
quite good.
(7:08 PM) AEN:    u mean he realised emptiness?
(7:09 PM) Thusness:    i go now
(7:09 PM) AEN:    ok.. cya
btw u mean he realised emptiness or he understand theoretically

Session Start: Sunday, May 10, 2009

(8:35 AM) AEN:    so how shld i reply shunyata mu :P
(10:38 AM) Thusness:    Who is he?
(10:38 AM) AEN:    the person who wrote the witness one

(7:39 PM) AEN: this one http://www.inthenow.tv/actual%20pages/awakeinthenow.html
(10:39 AM) Thusness:    everyone has their own experience.
i need to read through first.
(10:40 AM) Thusness:    some have direct insight of emptiness
some have direct insight of anatta
(10:40 AM) Thusness:    some have advaita sort of non-dual
(10:40 AM) AEN:    oh ya the gold realised both?
(10:40 AM) Thusness:    and there are varying degree
(10:41 AM) AEN:    goldisheavy*
(10:41 AM) Thusness:    nope...i only say he has insight into emptiness
(10:41 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:41 AM) Thusness:    but that does not mean he will have realization of awareness
or the intensity of no dog may differ
(10:41 AM) Thusness:    like u experience witness however that is not the experience i want u to have
(10:42 AM) Thusness:    u do not have that certainty, that eureka sort of realization
so there are differing degree
(10:42 AM) AEN:    oic
(10:42 AM) Thusness:    similarly non-dual there are varying degree
(10:43 AM) Thusness:    some non-dual have no thoughts
some have thoughts
(10:43 AM) Thusness:    though from the perspective of emptiness, all is flat, the experience differs in terms of intensity and vividness
(10:43 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:43 AM) Thusness:    realization however is different
it is a realization
means u see
u suddenly understand
(10:44 AM) Thusness:    and knows very clearly
(10:44 AM) AEN:    icic..
(10:48 AM) AEN:    anyway
i emailed u the sunyata mu's email
about the sun's ray and sun
(10:49 AM) Thusness:    what did u write to him?
(10:49 AM) AEN:    i havent replied him
(10:49 AM) Thusness:    i meant what did u write to him to have him replied u that way
(10:50 AM) AEN:    i just pasted some quotes about witness and witnessed are non dual
(10:50 AM) Thusness:    show me ur email to him first.
then re-sent me his reply
(10:51 AM) AEN:    ok hold on
(10:51 AM) AEN:    wah
but v long leh :P
(10:51 AM) Thusness:    okie
(10:51 AM) AEN:    i just forward u
(10:51 AM) Thusness:    okie
he has potential to go beyond stage 4.
(10:52 AM) AEN:    btw he posts in now-for-you also but only a few posts. i saw his site from there
icic
(10:53 AM) AEN:    i emailed u his reply
i mean
i emailed u my email to him
i also emailed u his reply, yesterday, with the title 'Fw: From Sunyata Mu ...'
(10:56 AM) AEN:    so what he said is like stage 4?
(10:57 AM) Thusness:    that is a guide for u, don't always think of stage.
some start with emptiness
but have no experience of luminosity
(10:57 AM) Thusness:    then luminosity will become a later phase
does that mean that the most pristine experience of "I AM" now is the last stage?
(10:58 AM) Thusness:    don't get urself confused
(10:58 AM) AEN:    icic..
(10:58 AM) Thusness:    i told u to look into at it as phases of insight but ur entire mind is looking at it as a stage
(10:58 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:59 AM) Thusness:    some have no experience of luminosity at all and is able to understand the profound wisdom of emptiness
(10:59 AM) Thusness:    yet have no direct experience of luminosity
or the degree of experience is simply just not there
(10:59 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:00 AM) Thusness:    some have experienced luminosity but does not understand how he get himself 'lost'
(11:00 AM) Thusness:    no insight to the tendencies at all therefore cannot understand DO adequately
(11:00 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:01 AM) Thusness:    does that mean that one that experience emptiness is higher than one that experience luminosity?
i told u so many times it does not mean that
and i wrote in the article too.
(11:01 AM) Thusness:    how come u fail to see despite me telling u upteem times
(11:01 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:02 AM) Thusness:    din receive yet
(11:02 AM) AEN:    huh dun have?
yesterday i sent u also nv receive?
(11:02 AM) Thusness:    what u should understand is what is lacking in the form of realization
there is no hierarchy to it.
just insights
(11:03 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:03 AM) Thusness:    then u will be able to see all stages as flat
get it?
(11:03 AM) AEN:    icic..
(11:03 AM) Thusness:    and simply talk about the progress of insights
but all insights are equally precious
and flat
no higher
(11:04 AM) Thusness:    like dharma dan experience non-dual but not no-dog
then no-dog is precious
(11:04 AM) Thusness:    even after non-dual
that will bring out the luminosity aspect more
(11:04 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:05 AM) Thusness:    when in non-dual, one can still be full of thoughts
therefore experience the thoroughness of being no-thoughts, fully luminous and present
(11:06 AM) Thusness:    then it is not about non-dual, not about the no object-subject split, it is about the degree of luminosity for these non-dualist
(11:06 AM) Thusness:    but some monks that is trapped in luminosity and rest in samadhi, then it is about non-dual
(11:07 AM) Thusness:    for non-dualists, depending on the level of understanding, u can move forward or backward, there is no-hierarchy
(11:08 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:08 AM) Thusness:    send me his reply too...i din have it in this computer
(11:09 AM) AEN:    yeah i sent u both but u din receive?
i tink i save into document
(11:11 AM)    You cannot send this file because it appears to be in use.  Close the program that is using this file and try again.
(11:11 AM) AEN:    Initiated a file transfer
(11:12 AM) AEN:    u there?
(11:16 AM)    Transfer of "SunyataMuEmails.doc" is complete.
(11:17 AM) Thusness:    thevoice talking to me.
(11:17 AM) AEN:    o icic..
(11:17 AM) Thusness:    I will tell u how to reply him..maybe write something about natural state...later this evening when i solve my email problem for my e75.  Think have to go change the phone
(11:18 AM) AEN:    oic.. ok
(11:19 AM) Thusness:    this astraldynamics is generating a lot of traffic..
hahaha
(11:19 AM) AEN:    yeah hahaha
din noe his website so popular
(11:19 AM) Thusness:    his books sold more than 50000 copies...
so his readers should be a lot.
(11:20 AM) AEN:    oic..
(11:22 AM) Thusness:    sunyata mu is from australia?
(11:22 AM) AEN:    yea
i think sydney
why?
(11:23 AM) Thusness:    i thought this was him:Blaxland, New South Wales, Australia, 0 returning visits
haha
(11:23 AM) AEN:    i tink his house in Blaxland then his workplace in Sydney or something
yeah
cos at first he came in from Sydney..
(11:24 AM) Thusness:    now many visitors return
(11:24 AM) AEN:    icic yea
(2:02 PM) AEN:    sunyata mu is saying there is a universal consciousness in everybody i think
(2:04 PM) AEN:    and that each individual and experience is 'emanating' from the one source
(2:04 PM) AEN:    then his idea of 'no separate self' is the universal brahman
|

Session Start: Tuesday, May 12, 2009

(10:14 PM) AEN:    hi
(10:17 PM) Thusness:    hi:)
(10:17 PM) AEN:    u saw my msgs just now?
(10:18 PM) AEN:    i asked "how shld i reply shunyata mu :P"
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    my next post is related to sunyata mu however i do not have the time to write yet. :)
(10:21 PM) Thusness:    it is about the difference between phase 4 and 5
(10:22 PM) AEN:    oic
u saw his emails rite?
(10:22 PM) Thusness:    yeah about the sun and the ray
(10:22 PM) AEN:    yeah
i tink he's talking about universal consciousness
(10:22 PM) AEN:    he thought no separate self means everyone has a universal brahman or something
if i not wrong
(10:23 PM) Thusness:    partly yes
(10:26 PM) AEN:    icic

Wrote in 2018：

"If someone talks about an experience he/she had and then lost it, that's not (the true, deep) awakening... As many teachers put it, it's the great samadhi without entry and exit.

John Tan: There is no entry and exit. Especially for no-self. Why is there no entry and exit?
Me (Soh): Anatta (no-self) is always so, not a stage to attain. So it's about realisation and shift of perception.
John Tan: Yes 👍

Also：

Differentiate Wisdom from Art

Labels: Anatta, Zen Master Sheng-yen 1 comments | | 

 

Soh wrote in 2007 based on what John Tan wrote:

First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically.