This pointer is for those practicing self-inquiry. If you have already passed the I AM realization, there is no need to read this.

......

P:
Sometimes during practice a state of deep stillness and silence is maintained for an extended period. In such a state, is it better to abide in it, or is it better to continue to invoke the "before birth.., who am I" inquiry with intention?


I replied:



Continue inquiring. Both silence and thoughts are just passing states and are not the point. What is aware of silence and thoughts? What is undeniably existing and present in thoughtlessness? Who am I?


Excerpt from https://awakeningclaritynow.com/awakening-to-the-natural-state-guest-teaching-by-john-wheeler/



‘in the wrong direction. Nisargadatta Maharaj used to say, ‘Understanding is all’. In essence, Bob was saying, ‘Right now in your direct experience see what your real nature is. What are you right now? What have you always been?’ The thinking mind is useless for this because seeing or looking is not a conceptual function at all. It is more like seeing an apple in your hand. You just look, not think. Right now, as you read this, you exist and you are aware that you exist. You are undoubtedly present and aware. Before the next thought arises, you are absolutely certain of the fact of your own being, your own awareness, your own presence. This awareness is what you are; it is what you always have been. All thoughts, perceptions, sensations and feelings appear within or upon that. This awareness does not move, change or shift at any time. It is always free and completely untouched. However, it is not a thing or an object that you can see or grasp. The mind, being simply thoughts arising in awareness, cannot grasp it or know it or even think about it. Yet, as Bob says, you cannot deny the fact of your own being. It is palpably obvious, and yet, from the time we were born, no one has pointed this out. Once it is pointed out it can be grasped or understood very quickly because it is just a matter of noticing, ‘Oh, that is what I am!’ It is a bright, luminous, empty, presence of awareness; it is absolutely radiant, yet without form; it is seemingly intangible, but the most solid fact in your existence; it is effortlessly here right now, forever untouched. Without taking a step, you have arrived; you are home. No practice can reveal this because practices are in time and in the mind. Practices aim at a result, but you (as presence-awareness) are here already, only you don’t recognize it till it is pointed out. Once seen, you can’t lose it, and you don’t have to practice to exist, to be. This is, in essence, what Bob pointed out to me in the first conversation I had with him Once I saw this, I felt very clear and free immediately. Later, some thoughts came up, some old personality patterns, some old definitions of who I thought myself to be. I seemed to lose the clear understanding of my nature as presence-awareness. The next day, I talked to Bob about it. He said, ‘Let’s have a look. Do you exist? Are you aware? What is illumining the thought that you have lost it?’ Then I realized that thoughts of suffering were only passing concepts being illumined by the ever-present awareness. I hadn’t lost anything at all. The awareness that we are is never obscured! Suffering seems real because we don’t have a clear understanding of our true nature. Instead, we believe the passing thoughts, such as ‘I am no good,’ ‘I am not there yet,’ ‘I am stuck’ or whatever the thought may be. Eventually we understand that we are not those thoughts. Once our real self is pointed out, the suffering loses its grip. Bob pointed out that there is no person here at all. The person that we think we are is an imaginary concept. There are thoughts and feelings and perceptions, but they are ‘



- John Wheeler




M:
I had a similar question actually because i listened to Adyashanti talk and he says to rest in the silence, that the silence is the answer to the question Who am I. So a little different. But the silence doesn’t seem bright luminous presence etc so I need to keep inquiring. 




I replied: 


Adyashanti said:
"...But whatever you are, you don’t disappear when you’re silent. The world doesn’t disappear when you’re silent. The glass of water doesn’t disappear when I stop thinking it’s a glass of water. The reality of life actually exists whether we’re thinking about it or not. I think it only takes those five seconds to see where most of us are actually living our whole life.
Does noticing silence mean we’re ignoring everything that doesn’t seem to exist when we’re in silence?
The silence I’m talking about is the natural silence of awareness before we go into a dreamy place, before we disconnect. It’s prior to all that movement of mind. One of the things that I often emphasize when teaching is that it has to be a vivid silence. If you feel spaced-out and dreamy internally, it’s like you’re leaning too far back. And if you just lean forward a little bit, it comes back into view.
"


There’s a website which speaks of silence this way.. or some people say space. Formless. But it’s the formlessness of the I AM and not just a silent state of mind



Www.puresilence.org



Excerpt from PureSilence.org:

'The Hebrew writer who penned this miracle of language, that that which is unknowable, unnamable, immeasurable is that which is beyond all and encompassing all, had a wonderful experience of Pure Silence in his or her awareness to have come to this conclusion. You see, the unknowable which is impossible to understand rationally or emotionally is being ness itself and this being ness is a present tense verb. "Am" is what it was and is called. Am is present, now, and since it is a verb it is not subject or object, but rather action, the action of am-ing, or be-ing. Our only semi-tangible way of imperfectly grasping this is by allowing our awareness very subtly to focus on being itself and the brain can only understand this as silent nothingness between and supporting everything.

Pure Silence is simply experiencing being as a witness, not as controller or doer or thinker but as observer. There is tremendous freedom and peace in this. Where there is peace, there is certitude and order. From the order comes wisdom and inexplicable joy, which is the joy of discovery. The discovery is that your am-ness is no different from the Elohim, from the am of God itself. You are the chosen, we are the chosen because there is no choice to be made for ourselves. We simply are, choicelessly, purely, resoundingly.

The Psalmist calls us to be still and know that we are. Stop right now and recognize your true identity, your being ness which is being itself. No matter what you have done, thought or believed, all that is completely secondary to the fact that you are and what you are is God, which is Pure Silence itself.

Isn't that a comforting thought for a rainy, dark night?

Shalom!'



M: It seems like when there is silence of thought and I keep inquiring then other phenomena start occurring like hearing loud hissing almost like locusts or feeling energetic phenomena. Can be distracting lol. I need to keep going. In a week I’m doing silent retreat with Adya. Hopefully will breakthrough to IAM then. That’s my goal.


I replied: (Thumbs up) 

Any phenomena can become another opportunity to inquire and isn’t a hindrance. I.e. Trace back the radiance (from a sound, a perception, a sensation, etc) by inquiring into its Source.

http://zenmind.org/tracing.html


Tracing Back the Radiance
by Chinul

how to stop the waterfall Question: What is the mind of void and calm, numinous awareness?

Chinul: What has just asked me this question is precisely your mind of void and calm, numinous awareness. Why not trace back its radiance rather than search for it outside? For your benefit I will now point straight to your original mind so that you can awaken to it. Clear your minds and listen to my words.

From morning until evening, all during the 12 periods of the day, during all your actions and activities - whether seeing, hearing, laughing, talking, whether angry of happy, whether doing evil or good - utlimately who is it that is able to perform all these actions? Speak! If you say that it is the physical body which is acting, then at the moment when a man's life comes to an end, even though the body has not yet decayed, how is it that the eyes cannot see, the ears cannot hear, the nose cannot smell, the tongue cannot talk, the hands cannot grasp, the feet cannot run?

You should know that what is capable of seeing, hearing, moving and acting has to be your original mind; it is not your physical body. Furthermore, the four elements which make up the physical body are by nature void; they are like images in a mirror of the moon's reflection in water. How can they be clear and constantly aware, always bright and never obscured - and, upon activation, be able to put into operation sublime functions as numerous as the sands of the Ganges? For this reason it is said: "Drawing water and carrying firewood are spiritual powers and sublime functions."

There are many points at which to enter the noumenon. I will indicate one approach which will allow you to return to the source.

Chinul: Do you hear the sound sof that crow cawing and that magpie calling?

Student: Yes.

Chinul: Trace them back and listen to your hearing-nature. Do you hear any sounds?

Student: At that place, sound and discrimination do not obtain.

Chinul: Marvelous! Marvelous! This is Avalokitesvara's method for entering the noumenon. Let me ask you again. You said that sounds and discrimination do not obtain at that place. But since they do not obtain, isn't the hearing-nature just empty space at such a time?

Student: Originally it is not empty. It is always bright and never obscured.

Chinul: What is this essence which is not empty?

Student: Words cannot describe it.



Excerpted from Tracing Back the Radiance by Robert Buswell.
26 Responses
  1. Wanderer Says:

    The IAm is a,relatively speaking,a 'smaller self realization'. There is a much deeper and more profound realization, 'God-realization'

    See 'Surrendering to the divine' @ Innerfrontier.org


  2. Wanderer Says:

    " The truest transformation comes in purifying ourselves of our egoism and leaving that empty gap open to our Loving Creator, Who may enter us. "

    This "creating an empty gap" is comparable to the practice of 'in the seen just the seen,hearing just the hearing ....' .In the latter, one leaves the sense of self and simply be the scenary,or senses(seeing ,hearing etc..).That opens a gap and cracks the sense of self,leaving the possibility of Realization('Loving Creator who may enter us)to happen


  3. Wanderer Says:

    The Seeker

    Adapted from Rumi

    After years of inner work, 
    A seeker found the door of the Beloved and knocked. 
    A voice asked: 
    “Who is there?” 
    The seeker answered: 
    “It is I.” 
    The voice said: 
    “There is no room for me and you.” 
    And the door stayed shut. 
    The persistent seeker engaged in ever deeper spiritual practice, 
    And then returned to the door of the Beloved and knocked. 
    The voice from within asked: 
    “Who is there?” 
    And the door opened, 
    And the seeker opened 
    And said: 
    “It is You.”


  4. Wanderer Says:

    Pure silence and tracing back radiance : Good pointers :-)

    Thanks

    But even more important ,or rather, the deciding factor,of whether one is capable of any real breakthrough at all, is the sincerity behind the practice.

    " Seek first the Kingdom, the rest will be added unto you " .Truer words were never spoken.Problem is, we all seek the rest, not the Kingdom.Even seeking the Kingdom may simply be a disguise of hidden ulterior motives.

    Would you write and post something regarding this sincerity of intention and effort? Not everyone is as lucky as Sri Ramana Maharshi, and without real heart where is the Kingdom ?

    Regards


  5. Wanderer Says:

    According to the American philosopher-mystic Franklin Merrell Wolff, there are 3 kinds of knowledge,'perception' , 'conception' and 'introception' . It is the 3rd one that needed to be brought to light in our spiritual path.


  6. Soh Says:

    Yes sincerity of intention and effort is very important

    I just watched this video yesterday which talks about this:

    https://youtu.be/w4ZWNzSliGk


  7. Soh Says:

    God Realization is a sub phase of Thusness Stage 1 and 2.

    Particularly if you read my e-book you should know, it is the aspect of impersonality that leads to the sense of everything as divine happening and being lived by a cosmic intelligence.


  8. Soh Says:

    God realization is different from “in the seen just the seen”

    Some people experience divine happening without I AM realization. Some only experience the innermost core of I AM. Some experience both. I have experienced both in the phases 1 and 2.

    In the seen just the seen comes later, it is about nondual anatta so stage 4-5


  9. Soh Says:

    Through surrendering, like Christians and just let grace and life happen, one can experience divine life and being lived even before realising innermost core

    But for me the realization of the certainty of Being happened before the God Realization


  10. Soh Says:

    In god realization the sense of a personal self (but not necessarily perceiver perceived duality or agent) and personal doer ship is purged, and one simply lets the divine intelligence and life take over


  11. Soh Says:

    in fact I quoted the inner frontier website Jacob’s ladder article in my ebook as it describes the I AM phase well up to god realization (impersonality)


  12. Anonymous Says:

    Does dark room retreat effective in speed up realizations?


  13. Anonymous Says:

    If i approach too aggressively,with too much intention,it slips away.If i approach too lightly,it just hides there in the high grass,unrevealed.How to catch the ox?


  14. Anonymous Says:

    The Tao that can be named is not the Eternal One,the Nameless is our eternal home,but why is it of such ungraspable nature?


  15. Anonymous Says:

    Hi, in Thusness's 2nd stage, at the end he wrote : inability to fully 'die' into total Presence. Can you elaborate on this? How to effectively 'surrender' one's ego/self and die into Presence?

    He said (stage 1) at moment of realization, 'tremendous flow of energy being released'. Does realization always accompanied by peak experience?If realization doesnt come with experience,then most likely it is still within the realm of mind.Anyone with good grasp of language can talk high about this,giving satsang,talks,charge money etc...(look at the nondual,self realization ,spirituality market nowadays) but all they give is just mental masturbation,nothing substancial.How to avoid mental masturbation in one's personal practice? It seems this is the most difficult balance in the path to realization,like walking on a rope.I think it's better to chase experience,rather than fall into conceptual realm.With experience,there's high chance of realization follows,as compared to using mind/thoughts. Look at the philosopher Franklin Merrell Wolff, by using the mind,it took him 20+ years(if im not mistaken) to have genuine realization.


  16. Soh Says:

    As Thusness said in the past, realization always comes with experience, but experience does not necessarily come with realization. So just go for realization and the rest will come.

    Releasing self will come with insight.



    "...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. Smile"

    ~ our forummer, Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

    "...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another from of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force urself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

    ~ Thusness
    --------------
    From a pure insight practice point of view, you can’t ever fundamentally “let go” of anything, so I sometimes wish the popularity of this misleading and indifference-producing admonition would decline, or at least be properly explained. However, if you simply investigate the truth of the Three Characteristics of the sensations that seemed to be a solid thing, you will come to the wondrous realization that reality is continually “letting go” of itself! Thus, “let it go” at its best actually means, “don’t give a bunch of transient sensations an excessive sense of solidity.” It does not mean, “stop feeling or caring,” nor does it mean, “pretend that the noise in your mind is not there.”

    ~ Theravadin teacher, Dharma Dan


  17. Anonymous Says:

    Abt time needed for realization : is it within one' s control? In other words, can it be speeded up?

    If im not mistaken, Daniel Ingram is an advocate of this ( MCTB).According to him, one can pass through stages quickly when go through intense retreat .Its a very tempting pov ...yeah, quick realization...instead of a lifelong practice ....which makes one wonder what kind of (shallow) realization that is ....

    Karmic tendencies (that had been accumulated over lifetimes) can simply be broken as long as one push hard enough in some retreat...possible? Yet we had example like Ramana's death experience ....

    For me , it seems very likely no lasting realization is going to happen in normal setting ...ignorance is too deep.to uproot just like that...

    2 options now :

    A : follow Dharma Dan 's advice , go into very serious retreat(dark retreat,self-made at one's own house , vipassana etc...) but personally, a retreat course at monasteries(goenka, etc...)doesnt appeal much to me ...they r too rigid,rules etc...

    B : go into long term seclusion(zhong nan mountains in China is a good place)

    Any words/advice ?


  18. Anonymous Says:

    Abt time needed for realization : is it within one' s control? In other words, can it be speeded up?

    If im not mistaken, Daniel Ingram is an advocate of this ( MCTB).According to him, one can pass through stages quickly when go through intense retreat .Its a very tempting pov ...yeah, quick realization...instead of a lifelong practice ....which makes one wonder what kind of (shallow) realization that is ....

    Karmic tendencies (that had been accumulated over lifetimes) can simply be broken as long as one push hard enough in some retreat...possible? Yet we had example like Ramana's death experience ....

    For me , it seems very likely no lasting realization is going to happen in normal setting ...ignorance is too deep.to uproot just like that...

    2 options now :

    A : follow Dharma Dan 's advice , go into very serious retreat(dark retreat,self-made at one's own house , vipassana etc...) but personally, a retreat course at monasteries(goenka, etc...)doesnt appeal much to me ...they r too rigid,rules etc...

    B : go into long term seclusion(zhong nan mountains in China is a good place)

    Any words/advice ?


  19. Anonymous Says:

    Ramana 's realization came 'just like that' ....so the temptation is there: it can happen to me as well...


  20. Anonymous Says:

    Talking abt living secluded mountain lives : i believe its beneficial for both practitioners : those without realization,and the advance ones.

    But it will be much2 more helpful for the one havent attained any real,genuine awakening.Ignorance and karmic tendencies runs deep,without renunciation and great act of letting go,going in rounds after rounds in samsara is a guarantee.It is naive to suppose otherwise,unless through the ripening of karma.

    For those already attained some stages,if the ultimate aim of Buddhahood is to be achieved in this very present life itself,then mountain life obviously will be immensely helpful as well.but of course,as ignorance runs deep,so does its partner clinging.So much so that one may need few more lifetimes b4 the end is reached due to inability to let go of clinging at the most subtlest level...


  21. Anonymous Says:

    Theres a documentary(there are others as well) ,available for viewing on youtube, 'Amongst white clouds' . It documents life of hermits living in Zhongnan mountains,China.

    From the talk with the various recluse in the documentary,it can be concluded(my own pov of course) that even seclusion is no guarantee of any real attainment.Many of them are still 'searching for the ox' . If seclusion itself couldnt do it, whats more of worldly life !


  22. Anonymous Says:

    Why even seclusion fails to yield any meaningful realization? The answer is most likely this : karmic(or karma) .


  23. Anonymous Says:

    If you were to asked of yr pov,or opinion,of this :

    Comparing mountain life with shorter time (days,weeks or even months)of intense retreat,which one will more likely produce realizers?

    Mountain vs self-made retreat .....


  24. Soh Says:

    Nobody can really tell you until you try both types of retreats yourself and see which one produces better results. But it's best to find a good teacher for guidance.

    Ask Daniel M. Ingram for advise on retreats.

    His advise here is good: http://integrateddaniel.info/retreats/


  25. Soh Says:

    "even seclusion is no guarantee of any real attainment.Many of them are still 'searching for the ox' "

    First of all, they may already be enlightened. You never know.

    Secondly, they may lack access to enlightened teachers and guidance.

    Don't be so quick to leave things to karma, also karma is not the same as "fate" and Buddhism is not fatalistic. Karma can be changed.


  26. Soh Says:

    "
    A : follow Dharma Dan 's advice , go into very serious retreat(dark retreat,self-made at one's own house , vipassana etc...) but personally, a retreat course at monasteries(goenka, etc...)doesnt appeal much to me ...they r too rigid,rules etc...

    B : go into long term seclusion(zhong nan mountains in China is a good place)
    "


    You should instead go for retreat under the guidance of Adyashanti, as he is clearly enlightened (especially in recent years his insights are clearly into anatta and total exertion) and furthermore practiced and teaches the Self Inquiry method.

    His insights are deep and will be more suitable for you than Vipassana, since I believe you are more into Awareness teachings and Self-Inquiry.

    If you are living in Singapore and do not wish to travel far, maybe try the retreats held by Zen Master Dae Kwang - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeSUJ7WsX4Abb6l-Owb7TetYpQEYjwhKdK-f2-oidkEt-4Vqw/viewform and http://kyclzen.org/index.html

    They also use the self-inquiry method.