On the thread https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/permalink/4869178826456842/?__cft__[0]=AZXLy48f2crzwUoMeB9-uZN1HGZJPvSYu8ahKztfQ8gaACwOtzakD1MQB79JhCzbcJxecXo43FiZSrbx7MDV1KL8-GIa5DWsUNhn6YV5YcFDPh1_gvZVH4QhsteI-7U4Ztr21GpUyFJCHI-lDvqapUEOdYB7OmJBVeI98Cur7RgL5-pYH5WUD9pPoUwpOnQN-LM&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R 


I wrote:

  • Yes but even vidya or rigpa is exhausted in the case of anatta. There is no unchanging awareness involved. Awareness if used as a word is merely a convention like weather.
    I wrote previously:
    “Particularly, phenomena is defined as objects with characteristics. That is why they are exhausted, but not pure appearances. As the Dzogchen texts and Malcolm explained, even rigpa/vidya as a knower is exhausted at the end of the path when the out-of-phase duality between vidya and dhatu collapses. There is no unchanging awareness
    Another interesting 'technical' point since this is DhO. There was a point in his retreat where Arcaya Malcolm Smith described how at the mature phase of Dzogchen practice, the 'vidya'/'rigpa' (the knowing/knowledge) is exhausted where the vidya and dhatu (something like knowing and field of experience) totally collapsed in a 1:1 synchrony (and he gestured two circles coming together), whereas before that point [the exhaustion of vidya] there is a sort of out of phase issue between vidya and dhatu....
    ... His student Kyle did inform me that it is the same as what I call anatta realization [which I realised almost 10 years ago, it is the same as MCTB's fourth path]. Also, Malcolm mentioned many people have the wrong idea that Vidya/Rigpa is some eternal thing that just goes on forever, but it too is exhausted later along with all other phenomena [although this is not annihilation as appearances/pure vision still manifest] (elaboration: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../acarya-malcolm... )”
    Scott Kiloby this year: Some nondual teachings say that you (awareness) are like the
    screen on which the movie of “self” plays! Rubbish. You can’t split the universe. Only thoughts say there’s a split! There’s no separation between you-the screen-and the movie of self! This is love! Don’t try to understand this. Experience it!
    Also can you see where bypassing comes in when you try to split the universe between awareness and what arises to awareness? Things hide in our unconscious. Believing that you are the awareness is a great way to keep things hidden from view!
    August 2010:
    (11:07 PM) Thusness: for example u see AF description of insight and experience are very similar to what i described in anatta article.
    (11:09 PM) AEN: oic.. ya
    (11:11 PM) Thusness: there is no ending to this realization
    (11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:42 PM) Thusness: Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear;
    Refrain from both positive and negative projection -
    leave appearances alone:
    The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
    this is very good
    (11:46 PM) AEN: oic..
    (11:51 PM) Thusness: ask how will what he realize thus far can lead to the insight that The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra/liberation.
    ask luckystrikes
    (11:52 PM) AEN: ok
    (11:55 PM) AEN: posted
    (12:29 AM) AEN: Scott Kiloby: If you see that awareness is none other than everything, and that none of those things are separate "things" at all, why even use the word awareness anymore? All you are left with is the world, your life, the diversity of experience itself.
    (12:30 AM) Thusness: very good.
    (12:31 AM) Thusness: This is anatta
    (12:31 AM) AEN: oic..
    (12:32 AM) Thusness: what left in is the intensity of practice.
    (12:33 AM) Thusness: until there is completely without trace of awareness
    The Case Against Awareness – A Little Blasphemy Goes a Long Way
    Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta
    Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta
    Acarya Malcolm on Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta

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    On awareness as weather:
    14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
    14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
    14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
    14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
    14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
    14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
    14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
    14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
    14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
    14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
    14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
    14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
    14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
    14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
    14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
    14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
    14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
    14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
    14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
    14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
    14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
    14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
    14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
    14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
    14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts


    (10:50 PM) Thusness: at the more refine level of non dual experience, when the sense of self is gone to a great level, there is absolutely nothing but only everything...what does that mean?
    (10:50 PM) Thusness: many though said so but is still not there even he is already at the level of non dual.
    (10:51 PM) AEN: not where?
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: he must feel completely nothing and only the 'concreteness', 'solidness', realness...
    (10:51 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: must feel the 'solidness' and that is things....
    (10:51 PM) Thusness: that is awareness
    (10:51 PM) AEN: oic
    (10:52 PM) AEN: Thusness says:
    many though said so but is still not there even he is already at the level of non dual. --> huh not where?
    (10:52 PM) Thusness: there are different level of non-dual experience.
    (10:52 PM) AEN: icic
    (10:53 PM) Thusness: feeling crystal clarity and 'no one there' is the same as only the solidness, hardness, sound, vividness, realness.
    (10:54 PM) Thusness: that 'sense of self' must be completely gone. 🙂
    (10:55 PM) Thusness: u must remember this.
    (10:55 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:55 PM) AEN: this is like mindfulness rite
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: so now u know why buddha teach mindfulness?
    (10:56 PM) AEN: icic..
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: and why advaita din. 🙂
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: this is important.
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: it is the direct way
    (10:56 PM) Thusness: u c, the teaching and the practice is in line.
    (10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: so non-dual as in no-self.
    (10:57 PM) Thusness: into impermanence and just the manifestation and DO
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: and authenticate this with insight meditation.
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: however it is taught wrongly. 😛
    (10:58 PM) AEN: icic
    (10:58 PM) Thusness: but when one experience deeper and understand better, why buddha taught and said those things will become clear.
    (10:58 PM) AEN: oic..
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: u will realise that advaita always tok about the Self.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: but when a person tat is enlightened, he doesn't like to use this word.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: Self is a by-product.
    (10:59 PM) Thusness: it is the production of thought.
    (10:59 PM) AEN: no leh ppl like nisargadatta still always talk about it
    (10:59 PM) AEN: hahaha
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: even if u call it Brahman, it is still sinking back to a source.
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: but when one gets clearer and clearer, and know more about manifestation
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: there is only arising and ceasing of phenomenon according to conditions
    (11:00 PM) Thusness: that is dharmakaya
    (11:00 PM) AEN: icic
    (11:01 PM) Thusness: it is understood in crystal clarity.
    (11:01 PM) AEN: oic
    (11:02 PM) Thusness: just understand that there is no self until it sinks to the inmost consciousness.
    (11:03 PM) Thusness: and know the different layers of consciousness but do not think that it is different type of consciousness
    (11:03 PM) AEN: icic..
    “While it may be contrary to the suggestions of many that claim to represent Zen or Dogen, true nature, according to the classic Zen records (including Shobogenzo) is ever and always immediately present, particular, and precise. Notions or assertions suggesting that Zen is somehow mysterious, ineffable, or inexpressible are simply off the mark. The only place such terms can be accurately applied in Zen is to definite mysteries, particular unknowns, and specific inexpressible experiences. Indeed, in Zen, the terms definite, particular, and specific accurately characterize all dharmas. Dogen’s refrain, ‘Nothing in the whole universe is concealed’ means exactly what it says; no reality is the least bit obscure or vague. To emphasize this truth, the assertion that ‘real form is all dharmas’ runs like a mantra throughout Shobogenzo, for example:
    “The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are. Shobogenzo, Shoho-Jisso[199]”
    - Ted Biringer
    “It is extremely difficult to express what is ‘Isness’. Isness is awareness as forms. It is a pure sense of presence yet encompassing the ‘transparent concreteness’ of forms. There is a crystal clear sensations of awareness manifesting as the manifold of phenomenal existence. If we are vague in the experiencing of this ‘transparent concreteness’ of Isness, it is always due to that ‘sense of self’ creating the sense of division… ...you must stress the ‘form’ part of awareness. It is the ‘forms’, it is the ‘things’.” - John Tan, 2007
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