https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/8547600198614668/?__cft__[0]=AZX3MQQS7PLW60GEcXwNFVacgZq3L1FteaImvoH5obxKIPwTyXqDMPxwWm1-TQC2UsjEeSzUCx3j00KKke9qE7_vmZ3S7Xwfng7QXXHvmozfSB11dvGIp9jMSyTy17nuHVY0q--HOC-xCJG3fqE1oevDUGpfX1cTlquZNtruRi63hufT7DsgTrDfNiMVwSltX_o&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R


Liz Anderton

2d  · 

Should teachers be charging money?

It seems amazing to me that so many people claim to be enlightened, and almost immediately they start teaching and offering satsang, retreats, 1:1s, books etc. Some of them are barely in their 20s.  I don't deny that these people could be liberated, but I'm always suspicious about their motivations.  If you've realised the deepest truth of life, why then do you feel the need to set up a website and youtube channel to tell everyone about it? Is that something that comes with liberation? (the urge to teach others). If so, why does so much money need to change hands? Why not teach for free? I understand that everyone needs to earn a living, but if you're called to it, why not continue with what you were doing before and teach in your spare time? If you've discovered the meaning  of life, the universe and everything, shouldn't you at least live with it for a while before setting up that IG account? 

I should add that I'm not against recouping costs that arise from practical matters (venue hire, travel etc). It's more about the personal brand that some people try to build and promote. Their spiritual brand seems no different to any other, right down to the automated marketing emails and paywalls.

44 comments

Yin Ling

Admin

Yup. Same thoughts. I’m always very wary and discerning.

Few hundred euros 💶 for a weekend zoom stuff. Erm.

Asking ppl not to eat food? Erm.

Don’t trust them. Lol.

Ps that is also why the admins here who strictly don’t take money from anyone tries very hard to protect others from falling to unscrupulous hands. Just to add.

Reply1dEdited

Liz Anderton

Author

Yin Ling yep, when I first read the awakeningtoreality blog I got a strong sense that it was all about the teaching and not about any individual

Reply1d

Yin Ling

Admin

Liz Anderton it’s not all “paying teachers = charlatans” though imo as some do need funds for a living if they charge reasonably. Some charges are just off the roof it’s so crazy.

I find the more problematic area is making up ones own teaching, own sect, own sangha, own book, own path, own decision on saying who is enlighten and who is not. That is very problematic. And some even talk about health, disease, body without have the qualifications to do so, and asking ppl to adopt certain diet or lifestyles like not eating or drinking. That’s severely problematic and harmful.

Reply1d

Kyoshu Okan Özaydin

I don't trust anyone who's not a lineage teacher. Anyone can parrot some fancy words on a YouTube channel. Take your teachings from trusted lineage teachers, liberation is very important, too important to just listening to random people.

Reply1d

Ole Norback

Kyoshu Okan Özaydin, yes and no✌️

The only deciver is oneself. Some say one should not cherry-pick. Is that so, is that true? Is what's good for you something worth doubting, and who is the doubter?

I say listen to it all, but let the heart do the picking; you only get the right fruity stuff needed for precisely who you are.

Reply1d

Stan Gogan

It’s definitely become a trend. And a lot of the things people admire in some of these teachers are just side effects of them getting money and having more free time from being a “spiritual teacher”. Of course you’d feel more free and happy if you too had a freelance spiritual consultant business, doesn’t mean you’re enlightened though.

Reply1d

Liz Anderton

Author

Stan Gogan I had never thought of it like that but it makes perfect sense

Reply1d

Stan Gogan

Liz Anderton to add to it though. I don’t see any problem with it necessarily.. as long as they are providing actual value to the seeker. Some are, there are a few excellent teachers that charge and do 1on1 and also provide really useful free resources.

But many charge without providing much except repeating the same old non-duality talking points.

It’s nuanced haha

Reply1d

Khizar Ali

Some really good teachers charge, i don't know about right or wrong but it kept me away from taking coaching with them since i can barely afford it atm. Some were kind enough to offer a free session or a discount. Hoping that my financial situation changes so i can bother them more 😛

Reply1d

Liz Anderton

Author

Khizar Ali I know what you mean. Some teachers resonate but then I'm put off by their commercialism.

Reply1d

Janice Davis

Nailed it

Reply1d

Pam Matthews


Angelo addresses this quite well in his book, and has also addressed it in some of his talks.

Reply1d

Dudi Amira

Pam Matthews could you elaborate on this please?

Reply1d

Pam Matthews


Dudi Amira

“I think it’s wonderful that meditation, mindfulness practices, and energetic practices such as yoga have become mainstream. This is a clear indication that humanity is in the midst of taking an evolutionary step forward in consciousness. I don’t think there is anything wrong with teaching various spiritual practices if done with sincerity and good intention. However, if you really want to take this to liberation, I will generally caution against trying to teach people about or facilitate awakening until that occurs. A first awakening (what is covered in this book) is just the beginning. Deciding to teach or facilitate too early has much more potential to cause you distraction than it does to support your progress. Many people who have authentic awakenings decide to teach way too early and get themselves into situations where it is challenging to see that they are using the identity of the “enlightened one” to prevent the process from coming to fruition.

Dilullo, Angelo. Awake: It's Your Turn (p. 45). Kindle Edition.

Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-incurred immaturity. — Immanuel Kant

Reply1d

Koro Kaisan Miles

No one owns the Dharma. The teachings are free. A Library, a used book store and an open mind is all that is needed. And maybe some tea😉

Reply1d

Ugi Müller

One who can dedicate his whole life to the Dharma can potentially do much more for the Dharma than someone who has to work full hours and only does it in his "free" time. I don't see a problem with sustaining oneself by teaching the Dharma and charging for it. Collecting dana or charging fees is only a matter of culture. One doesn't charge for the Dharma but for one's time and expenses teaching it.

Also the teachers of traditional lineages that travel around and do "full time teaching" are also not teaching for free. The only thing that THEY themselves don't have to do is collecting the money because they have huge organisations behind them who collect the money for them and pay their expenses, taxes and so on.

It's never black and white.

Reply1d

Liz Anderton

Author

Ugi Müller this is an important perspective and a good balance to what I wrote. Thank you

Reply1d

Rick Stewart

We all pay loads of money to support our samsaric lifestyle. Sooooo much for coffees, TV shows, music, fascinating foods, clothes, jewelry, news, face work, body work, all feeding our attention to stay distracted. Yet many numerous spirit chasers balk … See more

Reply1d

Jim Yandell


There is a lifetime of free Nonduality material on YouTube, Facebook & Instagram feeds, and at the library.

Reply1d

Diederik van der Boor

Either there is a need to teach from the remaining ego part of themselves that think they're now special Or there is a natural arising to teach and life's circumstances let them to it while they didn't want to teach at all. The second are usually the best.

But doing that for free? Nah. My teachers charge for their time, not their level nor for whats been given. That's for free. Reality or life is the teacher here and that can't be priced. But spending a week with a human being that's giving their time into this surely deserves a price tag.

Reply1dEdited

Owen Richards

Agree. Everyone wants to be the next Eckhart Tolle.

I'd love to see a teacher who is still living a working class life and raising kids, etc. That'd be real authenticity.

Reply1d

Rafał Bazarnik

Well.. it might be some unprocessed stuff - usually in social psychology proselytism is interpreted as internal doubts. So if you are able to convince others you are securing your own belief and pacify doubts... Not saying all of YouTube gurus are like this - some are just benefiting others, some are narcissists, some just want money and fame. And not that there is sth wrong with paying the teacher - all of us we sell our time and effort for money so while I am against paying for dharma - but not against paying for time invested in teaching, preparing, writing books and creating content - why not? And if someone does sth valuable why he would not get rich doing so? We live in society in which someone doing crazy jokes or just exposing some skin can get rich...

Reply1d

Anthony Goh

pm'd u

Reply1d

Duff McDuffee

Life under Late Capitalism is full of such contradictions.

Reply1d

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Worst thing is that most of those teachers that charge a lot of money, they really aren't clear themselves.

For example, Eckhart Tolle charge a lot, overcharged for his retreats and stuff. I agree his books are of value and I often recommend them for beginners but he only teaches until I AM level. There is a lot more to spirituality and that is hardly liberation.

Those who are really clear, often don't charge that much, if at all.

Reply1dEdited

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

But because of Eckhart's fame, and the way capitalism works, lots of rich billionaires and millionaires have tons of $$$ to throw away at fanciful celebrity teachers for an exotic weekend retreat at Hawaii with Eckhart, so of course they raise their prices because the demand is there, for example.

Reply1dEdited

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

2007:

(10:21 AM) Thusness: it is important that one must not assume the role of a teacher without being thoroughly authenticated because it will only prevent him/her from further understanding...

(10:22 AM) Thusness: coz one teaches too much and re-enforce the ego structure.

(10:22 AM) Thusness: the role of a teacher is deeper imprinted into his/her consciousness

(10:22 AM) AEN: oic..

(10:22 AM) Thusness: even buddha were to appear in front of him/her, they will not recognise.

(10:23 AM) AEN: oic

(10:24 AM) Thusness: it is better to focus on one practice than to become a teacher. 😛

(10:25 AM) AEN: icic

(10:25 AM) AEN: yea

(10:25 AM) Thusness: in fact i do not like anyone to know about the stages i wrote...just that it is due to yuan that i wrote something to share with JonLS.

(10:26 AM) Thusness: and sharing is only meaningful when the time is right.

(10:26 AM) AEN: oic

(10:26 AM) Thusness: otherwise there isn't much value.

(10:26 AM) Thusness: even then it can serve as a block.

(10:27 AM) AEN: icic..

(10:27 AM) Thusness: once a person have some experience and the idea of a teacher arise, it becomes a 'block' very quickly.

(10:27 AM) Thusness: and one will not like who teach or what...

(10:27 AM) Thusness: that is plainly the result of ego at work.

(10:27 AM) Thusness: nothing more than that.

(10:27 AM) AEN: oic..

(10:28 AM) Thusness: similarly JonLs or Simpo might not like it after certain realisation. 🙂

(10:28 AM) AEN: what realisation

(10:28 AM) Thusness: so don't tok about me in their forums.

(10:28 AM) AEN: lol

(10:28 AM) AEN: how come

(10:28 AM) Thusness: coz it is not respecting their realisation.

(10:29 AM) Thusness: heehhee

Reply1dEdited

Sim Pern Chong

Admin

Soh Wei Yu Yah... fully agree.

Reply1d

Yin Ling

Admin

Soh Wei Yu I agree with this a lot. Also the main reason I do not want to take on “clients” like how almost everyone else does 😂 those teacher seem to becomes stuck once they take on “client”. Too many examples.

Reply1d

Stan Gogan

Yin Ling Can also be stuck by principally not taking on clients. I think what you've said also highlights an aspect of this which is nuanced. Some teachers BECOME teachers because people ask for their help a lot that they have to set up some kind of business to make it work. Others set up a business FIRST and go out looking for clients, trying to advertise their "enlightenment" to people to get their money. Maybe if people are meant to become teachers and charge money, the universe will make it clear to them by bringing them students haha, no matter how hard they try to resist the teacher role haha.

Reply17hEdited

Yin Ling

Admin

Stan Gogan yeah this applies only to me. I don’t feel comfortable at all.

Reply16h

Ng Xin Zhao

Of course the proper way to teach dhamma without charging money, is to become a monastic.

If one is enlightened in any stage, there's really no doubt about the Buddha, dhamma, and sangha, so no faith issue, just how much does one attach to lay life some more if one doesn't want to be in robes?

There's some beginners to Buddhism who are so inspired and got into robes very soon after learning the dhamma. What's stopping those who claimed some attainments?

Reply1d

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

https://www.reddit.com/r/awakened/comments/9b32i6/eckhart_tolle_and_his_prices/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

May be an image of text

Reply10h

Yin Ling

Admin

Soh Wei Yu amongst all these expensive ppl, I still only personally recommend Angelo haha, who does all his material for free. But that guy is busy with a full time medical job I really don’t know how he cope.

And Mingyur rinpoche courses if ppl are Buddhism incline. Also not crazy expensive.

Lisa is clear but she is fully booked too.

Frank yang does coaching but he overemphasise cessation so much and not very strong on insight rather focus a lot of experience

I have not found any that I can personally recommend tbh

Reply9h



Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Adyashanti is clearer and in recent years into anatta and total exertion (previously was into i amness and one mind)

Reply10h

Yin Ling

Admin

Soh Wei Yu in his writing? He has always been the most honest .

Rupert spira is a strong awareness teacher who I hope will breakthrough but not yet even in his latest book ( i actually read it lol)

Hope he gets it so he can benefit all

Reply9h

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Yin Ling Yes, John Tan and I find that Adyashanti's articles.. dunnu isit after 2017 or 2018 are more into anatta and total exertion

Reply9h

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Adyashanti

Awakening to Reality

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Awakening to Reality

Awakening to Reality

ReplyRemove Preview9h

Yin Ling

Admin

Soh Wei Yu ok thanks later I read

Reply9h



Soh Wei Yu

Admin

But it's not like I'm against Eckhart Tolle or other teachers becoming rich millionaires, or even the against the idea of being rich. Anathapindika was one of the most famous "billionaire" disciple of Buddha and he built monasteries for Buddha, he too is awakened (as a stream enterer), covering entire plot of land with gold to purchase it and build monastery for Buddha's sangha, in Mahayana the Vimalakirti is a 10th stage bodhisattva who is also like a "billionaire". {snipped}

But when it comes to spirituality, I think we have a different take on things.

2006, on Ken Wilber:

(11:37 AM) John: yeah...but i got disappointed by his movement

(11:37 AM) John: somehow cultic. 🙂

(11:37 AM) AEN: oic how come?

(11:37 AM) John: i wonder why all these ppl must develop such movement into a new age after the experience.

(11:38 AM) AEN: why cultic

(11:38 AM) AEN: actually he is more into philosophy isnt it

(11:38 AM) AEN: integrating western and eastern though

(11:38 AM) John: yeah...

(11:38 AM) AEN: thought

(11:38 AM) John: but when u come to worship some one, it becomes a cultic movement.

(11:38 AM) AEN: u mean ppl worship ken wilber??

(11:38 AM) AEN: lol

(11:38 AM) John: i hope this is not the case.

(11:39 AM) AEN: how come ppl worship ken wilber.. the book say meh? 😛

(11:39 AM) John: and i don't like the way the integral naked website is presented.

(11:39 AM) John: it is a non profit organisation...

(11:40 AM) John: and the range of packages for membership can varies from $10 per month to more than $60k per annum

(11:40 AM) AEN: wah

(11:40 AM) AEN: lol

(11:40 AM) John: is that non-profit?

(11:40 AM) AEN: icic

(11:41 AM) John: an experience of our true nature into a profit making organisation?

(11:41 AM) John: what is that great about such experience?

(11:41 AM) AEN: lol

(11:41 AM) John: i mean he spent 25 years to reach that level of understanding, that's great...isn't that our nature from beginning...😛

(11:42 AM) John: anyway....that is my personal view. 🙂

(11:42 AM) AEN: icic

(11:42 AM) John: maybe i am expecting too much eh?

(11:42 AM) John: lol

(11:43 AM) John: a decent living will do...we don't really have to be super rich....

(11:43 AM) AEN: hahaha

(11:43 AM) AEN: yea

(11:44 AM) John: there is another danger about just having the experience of our luminosity and anatta without placing emphasis on our emptiness nature.

(11:44 AM) John: life becomes just a manifestation of the divine

(11:44 AM) John: and the divine becomes like damn great...

(11:44 AM) AEN: oic..

(11:44 AM) John: actually the divine cannot do anything...lol

(11:44 AM) John: that is why there is never an 'I'. 😛

(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..

(11:45 AM) John: and action is karma.

(11:45 AM) AEN: oic

(11:45 AM) John: and unwholesome action results in suffering

(11:45 AM) John: this must be known

(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..

(11:46 AM) John: i think this will gradually evolve and unfold.

(11:46 AM) AEN: oic

(11:46 AM) AEN: u mean karma?

(11:47 AM) John: yeah....but experiencing it


Also, in 2007, on people using unscrupulous tactics to con spiritual masses:

(10:50 AM) Thusness: but using such tactics are not uncommon in business world. 🙂

(10:50 AM) Thusness: I do not like to link religion with business.

(10:52 AM) AEN: oic..

(10:53 AM) Thusness: businessman sometimes have to use some not so ethical tactics to deal with businessman...😛

(10:53 AM) Thusness: but it should not involve religion.

(10:54 AM) Thusness: religious ppl are very sincere ppl and there is no point earning $$$ this way.

Reply9hEdited

Ng Xin Zhao

Soh Wei Yu anathapindika, not angulimala. Angulimala was the serial killer turned arahant.

Reply9h

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

Ng Xin Zhao Ah yes! Thank you

Reply9hEdited



Soh Wei Yu

Admin

More recently:

[10/2/19, 8:29:54 PM] John Tan: I do not want to link practice with money

[10/2/19, 8:30:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah I also dun think that’s right lol

[10/2/19, 8:30:31 PM] John Tan: Yes

[10/2/19, 8:34:02 PM] John Tan: Once there is this sort of mindset, however small, it will eventually turn chaotic just like any system.

[10/2/19, 8:35:02 PM] John Tan: That is y I refuse to participate in any religious activities.

[10/2/19, 8:35:37 PM] John Tan: Buddha boy is no exception

[10/2/19, 8:36:04 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Mindset as in profit making?

[10/2/19, 8:36:13 PM] John Tan: Yes

[10/2/19, 8:37:23 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think depends.. Eckhart Tolle earn a lot of money but he seems ok... just that I dun really feel it’s right. Doesn’t feel right lol

[10/2/19, 8:39:47 PM] John Tan: There r exceptions of course but I m in business line creating  {snipped}  and their mindset to know how it can contaminate.

[10/2/19, 8:40:35 PM] John Tan: Many failed when comes to temptation.

Reply9h

Soh Wei Yu

Admin

[10/2/19, 8:48:42 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Can I learn from you 😛

[10/2/19, 8:48:52 PM] John Tan: Lol

[10/2/19, 8:49:06 PM] John Tan: U need to know corporate structuring

[10/2/19, 8:49:29 PM] John Tan: And have a group of ultra-high networth ppl supporting u

[10/2/19, 8:50:01 PM] John Tan: It takes decades to build up the reputation and experience.

[10/2/19, 8:50:06 PM] John Tan: Not easy.

[10/2/19, 8:50:14 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I see..

[10/2/19, 8:51:38 PM] John Tan: In business, it is not easy to have a mind free from attachment. Two conflicting mindstream 🤣

[10/2/19, 8:53:08 PM] John Tan: So if ur mind is pure and not corrupted, treasure it...worst is to corrupt the only real stuff that can give u peace.

[10/2/19, 8:53:38 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[10/2/19, 8:53:59 PM] John Tan: If I show u my profile u faintz

Reply9h

Labels: | edit post
0 Responses