End of suffering and importance of meditation
My posts from the other thread
Many people define end of suffering loosely. For example I saw people sort of worshipping Eckhart Tolle as almost like a new messiah, so I told that person Eckhart Tolle is not as “free from suffering and perfect” as he thought or claimed that Eckhart was, as Eckart himself said he felt depressed and was sleepless when magazines rejected “the power of now”, he got into angry outbursts recently when someone cut his queue or something like that (eckhart was at least honest about these). Did his I AM awakening reduce his suffering? Sure. Does that mean the complete end of suffering? I don’t think so. So eckhart tolle, who is at the I AM stage, I would not say has ended suffering. Yet some other teachers like john wheeler who is also at the I AM stage claims that the I AM realization is the end of suffering. I do not believe such claims are to be taken literally and absolutely.
Besides the point that I observe 99% of people who claim to realise no self (and I am not referring to Angelo as he has genuine realisation of that) are simply talking about impersonality (vast majority of the cases), or else substantiated nonduality, definitely not what we call the anatman realization here, something i just updated my article yesterday https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html to discuss in more depths, let alone the realization of twofold emptiness.
Even if someone has genuine realization of twofold emptiness (quite rare and unlikely) which means one has attained the stage of the first bhumi, still, there cannot be an end of suffering as long as there is the slightest tendency to cling. That requires at least the attainment of the eighth bhumi or sutta fourth stage arahant (not mctb arahant or kevin shanilec’s arahantship which to us is just sutta stream entry). This is discussed more in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html and https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/insight-buddhism-reconsideration-of.html
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Kyle dixon said: "Nice explanation. Meido Moore, who is a Rinzai Zen master says the same, he writes:
'From a practice standpoint, the crucial point is contained in the words, "one should just constantly activate correct views in one’s own mind." This has nothing to do with theoretical certainty that defilements are empty and do not bind; it refers to the seamless, sustained upwelling of the unity of samadhi/prajna. Departing from but then returning to this, again and again, describes the post-awakening practice to dissolve jikke.
If one experiences departure from this samadhi, even for a moment, the path is not completed at all. If one does not know what is actually meant by that samadhi, then even with kensho the path is still barely begun in terms of actualization.'
This process, dovetailing the “sudden” and “gradual” is identical for Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā as well." - Kyle Dixon, 2021
“Only Buddhas rest in prajñā at all times, because they rest in “samati” which is an unfragmented samādhi which directly cognizes the nature of phenomena at all times.
The rest of us do our best to cultivate concentration, dhyāna, which then will lead to samādhi, and after time we will awaken to have the awakened equipoise which comes about due to our samādhi being infused with prajñā. However due to latent obscurations that awakened equipoise will be unstable and our prajñā will be fragmented. The more we access awakened equipoise however, the more karma in the form of kleśa and vāsanā will be burned away, and as a result, the more obscurations will be removed and diminished. The path is precisely eliminating those obscurations, the afflictive obscuration that conceives of a self and the cognitive obscuration that conceives of external objects. Buddhas have completely eliminated these two obscurations and as a result their samādhi is samati, a transcendent state of awakened equipoise beyond the three times.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021
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Soh Wei Yu
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https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../dzogchen...
Acarya Malcolm Smith
Samadhi/dhyāna
is a natural mental factor, we all have it. The problem is that we
naturally allow this mental factor to rest on afflictive objects such as
HBO, books, video games, etc.
Śamatha
practice is the discipline of harnessing our natural predisposition for
concentration, and shifting it from afflictive conditioned phenomena to
nonafflictive conditioned phenomena, i.e., the phenomena of the path.
We do this in order to create a well tilled field for the growth of
vipaśyāna. Śamatha ultimately allows us to have mental stability and
suppresses afflictive mental factors so that we may eventually give rise
to authentic insight into the nature of reality. While it is possible
to have vipaśyāna without cultivating śamatha, it is typically quite
unstable and lacks the power to effectively eradicate afflictive
patterning from our minds. Therefore, the basis of all practice in
Buddhadharma, from Abhidharma to the Great Perfection, is the
cultivation of śamatha as a preliminary practice for germination of
vipaśyāna.
....
In
the early period of Budddhism, there were two yānas, śamatha yāna and
vipaśyāna yāna; beginners went to Śariputra to training in vipaśyāna for
stream entry; then they would go train in śamatha with Maudgalyana for
further progress.
Lance Cousins wrote a very interesting article about this.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
Dzogchen, Meditation and Jhana
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- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/dzogchen-meditation-and-jhana.html
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Hard jhana ala ajahn brahm style may not be necessary, but meditation is important.
On jhana: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/05/jhana-dhyana.html
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More from Kyle:
"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.
The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019
“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
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“I’m not qualified to give any sort of medical advice but sounds like you’d benefit from either continuing with some sort of medication schedule or if you choose to go without meds, at the very least have a therapist you can engage with on a regular basis.
Buddhadharma is great, and in certain degrees of realization does actually eliminate negative emotions so that they aren’t experienced at all. They are “tamed” (damya) so that you form a deep mental and emotional resilience once you reach the level of “patience” (kṣānti). This occurs on what is called the third bhūmi, negative emotions no longer manifest at all. I only say that to share that buddhadharma is in fact a means to an end in terms of conquering emotional turmoil. That said, those are higher realizations, and you shouldn’t bet your mental wellbeing on that type of attainment at this present time. It is better to take measures to find some emotional equanimity and overall peace, even if that means medication and therapy.” - krodha/kyle dixon
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thusness writings in april 2007:
Ai Yooh...
Don’t get the idea that I know anything about self liberating aspect of our nature. What I meant is we have underestimated the implications and impacts of ‘the sense of Self’ can have on the quality of non-dual experience. There is no division in non duality, there is only the 'sense of self' that prevents one from fully experiencing our nature.
Forms are merely that ‘thingness’ and that ‘thingness’ is tightly bonded by propensities. It is these propensities that create and give the solidness and boundaries but in reality, it is empty. We mistaken these ‘thingness’ as real, material as real and not know that what is real is empty, unborn, uncreated, without a center and non local. This is taking the illusionary as real. It is easy to understand what that is being said in terms of knowledge, but to understand dissolution of ‘thingness’ as a bond from intuitive experience is entirely different. The quality of a non-dual experience will be greatly enhanced when:
1. That ‘thingness’ of ‘Self as background’, as container is eliminated. There is only one, not two. Thoughts and perceptions continue to hover but the background is gone.
2. That ‘thingness’ of ‘Body’ is eliminated. Thoughts and perceptions reduced tremendously. The background is clearly gone, the body is also gone. The ‘thingness’ in the inmost consciousness is greatly loosen. This is the experience of crystal transparency without a center, not only without a who, there is also no where. There is crystal clarity, realness in phenomenal manifestation.
3. That ‘thingness’ as subtle personalities of beginningless past is eliminated.
There can be no compromised for the dissolution on 'the sense of self'.
It is good to learn something about self-liberating aspect of our nature from this David Loy article and he did outline some important points. However we should not be misled to think that we have understood the gist of self-liberation. I have many times emphasized that self-liberating aspect of our nature is easily and mostly misunderstood. A person who cannot feel the ‘strength’ of these bonds cannot be said to know what consciousness is all about from a practitioner point of view, much less self-liberation. I must emphasize that if one has not eliminated the bond level 1 and 2, there is no way he can understand what self-liberation is all about. After bond level 1 and 2 are stabilized, non-locality aspects of our nature will somehow manifest. It is also due to the manifestation of these non-local qualities of our nature that help clear some very subtle propensities, without these non-local experiences, breaking and loosening these propensities can be difficult.
Normally self-liberated aspect of our nature is disclosed by fully enlightened sages as they really seen the truth of their nature, unborn, uncreated and lucidly clear. There are people of great caliber, great bodhisattvas taking birth will little propensities and bonds, cream of the crops among the enlightened, these people after the initial non-dual experience due their lack of attachments are able to attained fearless Samadhi and transformed consciousness into wisdom immediately. For propensities are the results of subtle attachments and without attachments, all is realized at once. But it is not for everyone. So without attachments, we are already liberated!
But for normal lays like us, we cannot truly understand self liberating aspect of our nature when we are still slave to our own attachments and preys of our own karmic propensities. We can’t even move one step away from the 3 bonds stated above that create the sense of self. Delegate time to practice hard; have enough quality time to experience the non-duality during meditation (walking, standing or sitting), otherwise it would be just empty talks.
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14 Apr `07, 8:47AM
Many advaita masters have advised ppl to experience the 'Self' but the essence of liberation is not in experiencing the ‘Self’. One can experience the “I AMness”, the pure sense of existence a million times yet does not help in any aspect of enlightenment regardless of how mystical and transcendental the experience can be.
More harms are done if such experience enhanced our dualistic thought. In fact the wrong conclusion that awareness is a changeless, permanent entity is the result of distorting a non-dual experience due to the inability of our mind to go beyond its habitual dualistic thinking mechanism. When the dualistic mind attempts to understand this experience, it projects this ‘Self’ as the background to fit the non-dual experience into its dualistic framework. Such experience cannot lead to liberation because it is dualistic in nature. Any form of separation is non-liberating.
Therefore emphasis must be placed correctly on the 'no-self' aspect of awareness. Awareness is by nature non-dual. Being non-dual it is impermanent, ceaselessly and spontaneously manifesting as All. This is the clarity that must come from direct experience. There is no compromise regarding these aspects of our pristine nature. It must be thoroughly clear to experience the self-liberating nature of awareness.
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- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/01/thusnesss-conversation-between-2004-to.html
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Also, Angelo shared this excerpt in this group before, so I know he does not disagree with all these:
Zen Master Dogen:
The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort? Indeed, the whole body is free from dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from this very place; what is the use of traveling around to practice? And yet, if there is a hairsbreadth deviation, it is like the gap between heaven and earth. If the least like or dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion. Suppose you are confident in your understanding and rich in enlightenment, gaining the wisdom that knows at a glance, attaining the Way and clarifying the mind, arousing an aspiration to reach for the heavens. You are playing in the entranceway, but you are still short of the vital path of emancipation.
Consider the Buddha: although he was wise at birth, the traces of his six years of upright sitting can yet be seen. As for Bodhidharma, although he had received the mind-seal, his nine years of facing a wall is celebrated still. If even the ancient sages were like this, how can we today dispense with wholehearted practice?
- continue reading at https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/zazen/advice/fukanzanzeng.html
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Yin Ling
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17/4/07 section is by thusness as well?
I really like the Ai Yooh section.
How incredibly clear.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Yin Ling yeah both by him in april 2007
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Yin Ling
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Soh Wei Yu thanks. Extremely excellent. I find people tend to write clearly a few years post insight until these understandings tend to be integrated, after that it is hard to explain it so crystal clearly many years after.
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Matteo Non Lo So
Humans suffer. Those who don't are dead or in denial. Our humanity is developed through our ability to have grace in the face of it and have deep enough empathy with a world in which suffering and ignorance are vast to the point that breaks further levels of grasping. To feel the depths of humanity is to awaken far more deeply than a bunch of high rolling gurus who continue to feed the myth of the solitary enlightened ones.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Matteo Non Lo So
End of suffering is possible and is not a myth. In fact it is the whole point and purpose of Buddha’s teachings as stated in the four noble truths.
Although I do not claim to be a Buddha or Arahant, I have written a little about what experiential insight leads to.
For example this is what I wrote:
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/04/why-awakening-is-so-worth-it.html
Why awakening is so worth it
From time to time, people ask me why should they seek awakening. I say, awakening will be the best thing that happen in your life, I guarantee it. It is worth whatever effort you put into it. You won't regret it. Or as Daniel M. Ingram said, "Would I trade this for anything? Maybe world peace, but I would have to think about it. Until then, this totally rocks, and missing out on it would be barking crazy from my point of view."
What is it like? I can only give a little preview, an excerpt of what I wrote taken from the AtR guide:
"Personally, I can say from direct experience that direct realization is completely direct, immediate, and non-intellectual, it is the most direct and intimate taste of reality beyond the realm of imagination. It far exceeds one’s expectations and is far superior to anything the mind can ever imagine or dream of. It is utter freedom. Can you imagine living every moment in purity and perfection without effort, where grasping at identity does not take hold, where there is not a trace or sense of 'I' as a seer, feeler, thinker, doer, be-er/being, an agent, a 'self' entity residing inside the body somewhere relating to an outside world, and what shines forth and stands out in the absence of a 'self' is a very marvellous, wondrous, vivid, alive world that is full of intense vividness, joy, clarity, vitality, and an intelligence that is operating as every spontaneous action (there is no sense of being a doer), where any bodily actions, speech and thoughts are just as spontaneous as heart beating, fingernails growing, birds singing, air moving gently, breath flowing, sun shining - there is no distinction between ‘you are doing action’/’you are living’ and ‘action is being done to you’/’you are being lived’ (as there is simply no ‘you’ and ‘it’ - only total and boundless spontaneous presencing).
This is a world where nothing can ever sully and touch that purity and perfection, where the whole of universe/whole of mind is always experienced vividly as that very purity and perfection devoid of any kind of sense of self or perceiver whatsoever that is experiencing the world at a distance from a vantagepoint -- life without ‘self’ is a living paradise free of afflictive/painful emotions (note: I am not proclaiming a state of Buddhahood or
Arahantship where all traces of mental afflictions are totally obliterated, see
this link https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/07/buddhahood-end-of-all-emotionalmental.html
, and Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood in the original AtR
guide https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg for more details), where every color, sound, smell, taste, touch and detail of the world stands out as the very boundless field of pristine awareness, sparkling brilliance/radiance, colorful, high-saturation, HD, luminous, heightened intensity and shining wonderment and magicality, where the surrounding sights, sounds, scents, sensations, smells, thoughts are seen and experienced so clearly down to the tiniest details, vividly and naturally, not just in one sense door but all six, where the world is a fairy-tale like wonderland, revealed anew every moment in its fullest depths as if you are a new-born baby experiencing life for the first time, afresh and never seen before, where life is abundant with peace, joy and fearlessness even amidst the apparent chaos and troubles of life, and everything experienced through all the senses far surpasses any beauty previously experienced, as if the universe is like heaven made of glittering gold and jewels, experienced in complete gapless directness without separation, where life and the universe is experienced in its intense lucidity, clarity, aliveness and vivifying presence not only without intermediary and separation but without center and boundaries - infinitude as vast as an endless night sky is actualized every moment, an infinitude that is simply the vast universe appearing as an empty, distanceless, dimensionless and powerful presencing, where the mountains and stars on the horizon stands out no more distant than one’s breath, and shines forth as intimately as one’s heartbeat, where the cosmic scale of infinitude is actualized even in ordinary activities as the entirety of the universe is always participating as every ordinary activity including walking and breathing and one’s very body (without a trace of an ‘I’ or ‘mine’) is as much the universe/dependent origination in action and there is nothing outside of this boundless exertion/universe, where the purity and infinitude of the marvellous world experienced through being cleansed in all doors of perception is constant. (If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is: Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern. - William Blake)
Why awakening is so worth it
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Why awakening is so worth it
Why awakening is so worth it
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Soh Wei Yu
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You know all the Mahayana Sutras (e.g. Vimalakirti Sutra), old Zen talks about seeing this very earth as pure land and all the Vajrayana talks about the point of tantra as the pure vision of seeing this very world, body, speech and mind in its primordial unfabricated purity as the Buddha field, palace, mandala, mantra and deity? Now you truly get it, you realise everything is really just like that when experienced in its primordial purity and perfection, and that the old sages have not been exaggerating at all. It is as much a literal and precise description of the state of consciousness as it is a metaphor. As I told John Tan before, Amitabha Sutra’s description of pure land resembles my living experience here and now. “To me it just means anatta. When what’s seen, tasted, touched, smelled are in clean purity, everywhere is pure land.” - John Tan, 2019. "If one is free from background self, all manifestations appear in clean purity in taste. Impurities from what I know come from mental constructions." – John Tan, 2020
This is a freedom that is free from any artificially constructed boundaries and limitations. And yet, this boundlessness does not in any way lead to the dissociation from one’s body, instead one feels more alive than ever as one’s very body, one grows ever more somatic, at home and intimate as one’s body. This is not a body normally conceived of, as the boundaries of an artificially solidified body that stands separated from the universe, dissolve into energetic streams of aliveness dancing and pulsating throughout the body in high energy and pleasure, as well as sensations of foot steps, movement, palm touching an object, where the body is no longer conflated with a constructed boundary of ‘inside’ and ‘outside’, ‘self’ or ‘other’, where no trace of an ‘inside’ and an ‘outside’ can be found in one’s state of consciousness - there’s only one indivisible, boundless and measureless world/mind - only this infinitude of a dynamic and seamlessly interconnected dance that we call ‘the universe’. This is better than any passing peak experiences be they arisen spontaneously, in meditation or through the use of psychedelic substances. And yet, despite experiencing life to it fullest every moment without any veils, in complete openness and utter nakedness, nothing gains a foothold in consciousness, for as vivid as they are, they leave no trace just as a bird leaves no tracks in the sky, an empty and lucid display such as a gust of wind and the glittery reflections of moon on the ocean waves - appearing but nothing ‘there’ or anywhere. All these words and descriptions I just wrote came very easily and spontaneously in a very short time as I am simply describing my current state of experience that is experienced every moment. I am not being poetic here but simply being as direct and clear as possible about what is immediately experienced. And this is only a figment that I am describing. If I were to tell you more of what this is like, you would not believe it. But once you enter this gateless realm you shall see that words always pale in comparison."
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Paul Watt
So you never get a headache, never get anxious or feel any negative emotions of any kind?? I’m sorry mate, but I don’t believe it.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Paul Watt
A buddha or arahant can have headaches but not mental suffering.
SN 36.6 PTS: S iv 207 CDB ii 1263
Sallatha Sutta: The Dart
translated from the Pali by
Nyanaponika Thera
© 1998
Alternate translation: Thanissaro
"An untaught worldling, O monks, experiences pleasant feelings, he experiences painful feelings and he experiences neutral feelings. A well-taught noble disciple likewise experiences pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. Now what is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists herein between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling?
"When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling.
"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.
"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.
"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare.
"This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling."
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-----------------------
James Armstrong
According to “Buddhism” there is no self, so who or what “attains”?
Perhaps it takes some people thousands of hours of practice to realize there’s nothing to attain, others might realize this faster. Trying to attain a mythological hearsay future state of a hearsay mythological person seems to be a cause of suffering not a relief from suffering. This is not to diminish the value of trying to attain, that effort can exhaust our illusions.
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Alessandro Socio Migliori
James Armstrong so you are enlightned
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James Armstrong
About the no self part..
Here is a writing by john tan
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/07/difference-between-neo-advaita-nihilism.html
Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta
“[3:29 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: Thought of how to explain the difference in anatta and advaita nihilism.
[3:40 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: When a person in ignorance, why is he so blinded? If there is no I, shouldn't him be already free?
Sentient being: if there is no I in ignorance, then you are therefore free.
Anatta: There is no I in ignorance, you are precisely THAT ignorance, therefore fully and entirely blinded.
What anatta insight is telling us is the "I" and "ignorance" are the same phenomenon. This also tells us that even when in ignorant, there is complete and effortless non-dual experience, anatta is a seal.
[2:52 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The Beauty of Virtue
Thought is movement between “what is” and “what should be.” Thought is the time to cover that space, and as long as there is division between this and that psychologically, the movement is the time of thought. So thought is time as movement. Is there time as movement, as thought, when there is only observation of “what is”? That is, not observation as the observer and the observed, but only observation without the movement of going beyond “what is.” It is very important for the mind to understand this, because thought can create most marvelous images of what is sacred and holy, which all religions have done. All religions are based on thought. All religions are the organization of thought, in belief, in dogma, in rituals. So unless there is complete understanding of thought as time and movement, the mind cannot possibly go beyond itself.
We are trained, educated, drilled to change “what is” into “what should be,” the ideal, and that takes time. That whole movement of thought to cover the space between “what is” and “what should be” is the time to change “what is” into “what should be”—but the observer is the observed, therefore there is nothing to change, there is only “what is.” The observer doesn’t know what to do with “what is,” therefore he tries various methods to change “what is,” controls “what is,” tries to suppress “what is.” But the observer is the observed: the “what is” is the observer. Anger, jealousy, are also the observer; there isn’t jealousy separate from the observer—both are one. When there is no movement as thought in time to change “what is,” when thought perceives that there is no possibility of changing “what is,” then that which is—“what is”—ceases entirely, because the observer is the observed.
Go into this very deeply and you will see for yourself. It is really quite simple. If I dislike someone, the dislike is not different from the “me” or the “you.” The entity that dislikes is dislike itself; it is not separate. And when thought says, “I must get over my dislike,” then it is movement in time to get over that which actually is, which is created by thought. So the observer—the entity—and the thing called “dislike” are the same. Therefore there is complete immobility. It is not the immobility of being static, it is complete motionlessness and therefore complete silence. So time as movement, time as thought achieving a result, has come totally to an end, and therefore action is instantaneous. So the mind has laid the foundation and is free from disorder; and therefore there is the flowering and the beauty of virtue. In that foundation is the basis of relationship between you and another. In that relationship there is no activity of image; there is only relationship, not one image adjusting itself to the other image. There is only “what is” and not the changing of “what is.” The changing of “what is,” or transforming of “what is,” is the movement of thought in time.
When you have come to that point, the mind and the brain cells also become totally still. The brain which holds memories, experience, knowledge, can and must function in the field of the known. But now that mind, that brain, is free from the activity of time and thought. Then the mind is completely still. All this takes place without effort. All this must take place without any sense of discipline, control, which belong to disorder.
You know, what we are saying is totally different from what the gurus, the “masters,” the Zen philosophers say, because in this there is no authority, there is no following another. If you follow somebody, you are not only destroying yourself but also the other. A religious mind has no authority whatsoever. But it has intelligence and it applies that intelligence. In the world of action there is the authority of the scientist, the doctor, the man who teaches you how to drive, but otherwise there is no authority, there is no guru.
So, if you have gone as deeply as that, then the mind has established order in relationship, and understands the whole complex disorder of our daily lives. Out of the comprehension of that disorder, out of the awareness of it, in which there is no choice, comes the beauty of virtue, which is not cultivated, which is not brought about by thought. That virtue is love, order, and if the mind has established that with deep roots, it is immovable, unchangeable. And then you can inquire into the whole movement of time. Then the mind is completely still. There is no observer, there is no experiencer, there is no thinker.
There are various forms of sensory and extrasensory perception. Clairvoyance, healing, all kinds of things take place, but they are all secondary, and a mind that is really concerned with the discovery of what is truth, what is sacred, will never touch them.
The mind then is free to observe. Then there is that which man has sought through centuries, the unnameable, the timeless. And there is no verbal expression of it. The image that is created by thought completely and utterly ceases because there is no entity that wants to express it in words. Your mind can only discover it, or come upon it, when you have this strange thing called love, compassion, not only for your neighbor, but for the animals, the trees, for everything.
Then such a mind itself becomes sacred.
~ J Krishnamurti, 'This Light in Oneself: True Meditation'
Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta
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Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta
Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta
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9h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
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[2:53 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: reminds me of what you said 'you are the ignorance'
[6:52 AM, 6/28/2020] John Tan: Yes”
p.s. John Tan also said years ago,
"After this insight, one must also be clear of the way of anatta and the path of practice. Many wrongly conclude that because there is no-self, there is nothing to do and nothing to practice. This is precisely using "self view" to understand "anatta" despite having the insight.
It does not mean because there is no-self, there is nothing to practice; rather it is because there is no self, there is only ignorance and the chain of afflicted activities. Practice therefore is about overcoming ignorance and these chain of afflictive activities. There is no agent but there is attention. Therefore practice is about wisdom, vipassana, mindfulness and concentration. If there is no mastery over these practices, there is no liberation. So one should not bullshit and psycho ourselves into the wrong path of no-practice and waste the invaluable insight of anatta. That said, there is the passive mode of practice of choiceless awareness, but one should not misunderstand it as the "default way" and such practice can hardly be considered "mastery" of anything, much less liberation."
In 2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional "agent"."
“A state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by releasing.”
Labels: Anatta, John Tan, Karmic Tendencies | James Armstrong
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9h
Soh Wei YuAdmin
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also krodha/kyle dixon just wrote a nice post yesterday:
“I’m going to disagree or at least add some nuance to this. Many are saying anātman is not a “state” or “experience” but that isn’t exactly true. Anātman is indeed a dharma seal, and something already always the case that is not a “state” in itself, however that nature is something that can be experientially known or realized. In those instances of realization, anātman is directly and nonconceptually known and during those instances it is experienced; during that time it is a “state.”
Buddhas experience that equipoise 24/7/365. Āryas on the bhūmis experience it intermittently. And for us everyday sentient beings, it is latently present always, but we have no knowledge of it and have never experienced it.”
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9h
Talia Webster
This is so true and something I see. The other musings I have found around this are: if there is option what is its motive? Is there two things here? What is the agenda? Is there an outcome wishing to be achieved? The next step I have found is realising that communication can not happen clearly from different rooms so making sure you meet people where they are is important. Then there is all this that is witnessed seen as consciousness, breathed in to a space of one moment and let go of. But no path can be taken the same way because for everytime that path is now blocked and breath and trust is needed again. Untill trust is no longer needed and just is.
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18h
Roger Hiduk
This is what Ken Wilber is getting at with “states” vs “stages”.
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18h
Matt PackardTop contributor
Definitely true.
Realization does not make you incapable of making mistakes, holding incorrect beliefs, etc.
I think the idea of 'Axes of development' is a really good one. People can be very developed along certain lines of insight while being fairly immature in others.
Also, having even very deep insight does not automatically make you a good teacher or communicator.
Shinzen Young has some really good, very humble thoughts on this stuff. This vid is really good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgvr-f0p0Ms
Towards a Balanced Enlightenment ~ Shinzen Young
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Towards a Balanced Enlightenment ~ Shinzen Young
Towards a Balanced Enlightenment ~ Shinzen Young
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18h
Sam Roff
Well said David Mcdonald. Legend.
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11h
Sam Roff
I work with people in the emotional integrative spectrum for this process (with somatic inquiry tools/energetic regulation) and I see over and over again deeply earnest spiritual practitioners facing such 'commonplace conditionings'. There is a belief that anatta realization ect will obliterate these conditionings. And yet, I've seen the appearance of 'fixer identites' - where realized people such as doctors are willing to compromise their energetic boundaries in order to hold the pain of others. I've seen serious male practitioners who feel weak. Who feel deeply against themselves for earning financial income. Who, despite things like I am realization, still feel like they can't stand on their own two feet and cling to co-dependent relationships. I've seen meditators who practice for 2 hours per day, who are in heightened energetic dysregulated states: basically in freeze, constantly! I've spoken with other facilitators who have observed this too: especially people in dharma overground forums and are die-hard vipassana meditators ect. So so many are in a constant locked in state of fight/flight/freeze. And that becomes the baseline that they see the world through! Their view. 'This is normal'. And they use the profound insight of Anatta to merge so fully with the pain of their maladaptive conditioning in a very legitimate effort to relieve the pain, to end suffering. And that's amazing! But it's also okay to want to feel better. To show up with more compassion. I think there's a fear that adopting a new, new-age technique or something will only serve Mara's delusions. That these insights are sky-high above any relative approach to awakening. And I think we do this out of a very genuine earnest-ness of wanting to not get caught up in new-age BS. While it's true we don't need a PHD in our trauma, I see that people who are willing to understand themselves psychologically and release some of that conditioning at an energetic level through deep, heartfelt inquiry find that they're much better off energetically and in all relative aspects of life. And not only that, they can then continue on the natural unfoldment of waking up more deepy. In the never ending surrender. So for me, this post you just made David Mcdonald is very important.
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11h
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Yin LingAdmin
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I just to pop in to say some sthg very honest (as I’m quite busy on tight schedule but hopefully this helps somebody)
From my first Anatta glimpse 2 years ago, until today, with diligent practice of 2-3 hours a day, the first glimpse I had is not even recognisable now. It is so superficial that the Angelo interview I had w him makes me embarrassed when ppl bring it up. It was nothing. Just probably 0.1% of the path. And I won’t do anymore “interview” or YouTube until I’m sure I have sthg to offer.
For those sincere people, the practice until the real natural state is absolutely stable will take a lot out of you.
For that, I’m not sure if our human lifespan is enough to achieve.
Yes there are conditionings on how ppl teach, of course, even the food we all like to eat r different.
but also be aware to not psyched ourselves into thinking we are there when we are still barely stable and have not put in the work, unclear realisations will full of solidity yet trying to call out those masters advice as “conditioning”- that is also a conditioning in itself, a conditioning to laziness and wanting things to be easier than it is, we human love this don’t we?
It is the self talking, the 8 winds blowing, strongly. Be very careful about that and always keep the humility in practice.
But nobody wants to hear that, 🤣😛
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7h
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David McdonaldAuthor
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Yin Ling I loved your Angelo interview haha!
I just don’t think it works like that for everyone, there are plenty of YouTube who are not really there I completely agree with you, but a few examples of people who have reached profound realisation without all the devotion and sincere practice for years and years and years, Violet Synergy, Angelo, Lisa Cairns, Erik Ireland and a powerful example would be Angelo’s friend Josh Putnam etc etc I can name a few more.
Angelo speaks clearly on shadow work at “all stages of realisation” because even those conditioned tendencies can creep up after deep and profound realisations. You can see this throughout history also with certain masters abusing their power and insight harming other people.
Laziness and extreme devotion and a hard working will are both conditioning of the body mind, and I don’t really have a problem with them 😊 It may just be helpful to recognise how it happens for us is not how it’s “supposed” to happen for everyone. Frank Yang talks beautifully about the balance between working hard in this path and also relaxing and doing nothing, I believe one can fall on both sides of the extreme.
For me I’m investigating and practicing every hour of the day, it’s very intense, there is never a moment I’m not inquiring into emptiness etc, and I realise the benefits now if just relaxing a little and maybe just sit in silence with no agenda, or maybe go skateboarding with my friends for the day etc etc. I think frank Yang gets it exactly right 😁
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6h
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Ruben Farina
I don't even know if being a buddha means there is no conditioning but surely it doesn't take buddhahood or being advanced practitioner to be willing to see beyond conditioning and just look for the way instead.
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7h
Yin LingAdmin
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Ruben Farina yes the way is separate from all our conditionings.
If we really see the way, we can see beyond content and it doesn’t disturb us. To feel disturbed by other ppls conditioning, just means we are still quite faraway.
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6h
Mathias Pertusa
IMO, suffering is very personal at the end of the day. And paths are just paths, they are just pointers, one has to really find his own way with the helps of pointers. Everyone has to embody his own karma and not bypass the way.
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4h
Tomek Grzymski
David Mcdonald David McDonald, your post is quite clear, and you point out an obvious trap. Yet, you seem to be falling into it in one sense. 😉
How can you truly understand someone else's insight? How can you compare it?
You project their realization. You think you know where they are at, and you are concluding that this person has achieved profound realization without "hard work," and therefore, your thesis is correct.
Do you see what I mean?
It's all subjective. So, the only valid question is: What works for you?
I am a Zen practitioner myself, and without practice, I quickly become mentally foggy. It might be my own 'delusion' or my strong inclination toward hard work and practice; I really don't know. However, regardless of the cause, it holds true for me at that moment, so I trust my intuition. 🙂
Anyway, your post is indeed important and a good reminder not to cling to our own conditioning.
And honestly, when I've seen all these interviews on Angelo's channel, I thought the same.
Why do these people practice so hard when it seems so easy?
In my experience, reaching significant glimpses and shifts in identity is not that hard. Keeping it clear in daily life - oh man, that's a lifetime journey.
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1h
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David McdonaldAuthor
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Tomek Grzymski Indeed I agree with you, I mean how could I ever really know what someone else’s insight is for sure? Absolutely impossible! However there seems to be an intuitive presence to people who are deeply realised, and when their words point you towards your own intuition for freedom it leads to profound freedom for yourself! I can say at those moments that this teaching is sound, and intuitively the teacher is deeply realised. But, I also could be wrong because at the end of the day, who really knows what happens behind closed doors right?
I guess my post is more towards people who say “I have reached this insight” and “this is how everyone else should go about doing it and if your not doing it the way it happens for me then your doing it wrong”- rather than finding their own intuitive approach as-well as structure and practice which is also very important!
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1h
David McdonaldAuthor
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Tomek Grzymski I love what Adyashanti said in his retirement letter.
Teachings need be related to as prompts for spiritual practice and inquiry, not as monolithic and ultimate statements of reality. I have met just as many nondual fundamentalists as any other type of fundamentalist, and always with the same close-minded certainty and underlying fear that all fundamentalists share. A totally certain mind is a closed and protected mind; a mind that is essentially afraid of the immensity of the reality it claims to know. It is vital to understand that deep spiritual practice has a lot more to do with conceptual unknowing than knowing. Wisdom is fully embodied and digested experience, not simply concepts in relationship to still more concepts.
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1h
Tomek Grzymski
David Mcdonald Exactly! I completely agree with you.
I believe it's the delusion at play, and a more subtle persona emerging. Someone may have had a genuinely profound insight, and I don't deny that at all. However, what often follows is the pure delusion of a person who thinks, 'I've gained something, so I know something, and my way is the only way." It's really good that you are poiting this out. 😉
And that's precisely what I'm emphasizing - to attain absolute clarity on EVERY LEVEL and EVERY aspect, 24/7 on daily basis, it truly appears to be a lifelong process involving a lot of inquiry and meditation.
Recognizing our own subtle delusions is exceptionally challenging. Especially when someone calls himself a teacher, has a lot of followers etc.
BTW if I were to project someone else's 'clarity,' I would definitely say Adyashanti is at the peak. When I engage with his teachings, it feels like a bullet piercing through my conditioned mind, hitting the mark. 😉 I love his work so much ❤
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56m
David McdonaldAuthor
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Tomek Grzymski Indeed, I mean the process of embodying insight into relative life, being more compassionate, loving, better at communicating etc etc, these are all life long things! And Buddhism dosnt have the answer to “being the perfect individual in every aspect of your life”
Hence why I love Adya, although he is primarily zen. He teaches from the Christian mystics, advaita, etc there is no “well zen is the only way” that sounds like “Jesus is the only way to salvation” kind of talk lol. He can effortlessly flow between all of them. ☺️
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45m
Tomek Grzymski
Yes. And also, have you noticed that even on this AtR forum, "no self" is described as the ultimate "goal" or "peak" of realization, and it sometimes feels like people are "no self" fundamentalists?😃 Even when someone posts a quote that seems to point more towards "Self" or "I am," it's often denied in one sense.
What really surprised me about Adya in one of the latest livestreams is when he said that ultimately, it is not about no self or Self realization, but effortlessly flowing between all states, experiences, realizations etc., without clinging to any.
It really opened my mind, not to cling to anything. Even no self, lol.
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38m
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David McdonaldAuthor
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Tomek Grzymski Rupert Spira said Enlightenment could be defined as the absence of resistance to what is, the total intimacy with whatever is taking place without any desire to reject or replace it;
I mean so many people on here say well Rupert is fixated and he’s not Annata and he’s this and he’s that. But what if he’s genuine experience is what he said above? Is that not liberation from his own personal suffering?Who here can go up to him and say, well actually your wrong, you need to do XYZ…. What if he is TOTALLY at peace in life? What more would one want in life? Maybe if you have a Buddhist belief system you want to choose your reincarnation or maybe become a Buddha, but at the end of the day that’s a belief system and I have absolutely no problem with people believing it, I actually tend towards believing in things like reincarnation myself! But I recognise it as a belief! And if someone like Rupert has found freedom in this lifetime completely, and it wasn’t through Buddhist stages of enlightenment then absurdly fantastic! Wonderful! Beautiful!
This is why Ken Wilber’s integrative approach could also be important. Because it focuses on so many other things about a human being other than spiritual insight, and achieving certain stages of
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29m
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Tomek Grzymski
Yes, I feel the same way. And it's really funny sometimes because it really seems like a fixation, and you can even get it on "anatta." and critize "other".
For me, if you are genuinely happy, don't concern yourself with stages, realizations, or whatever. Rupert's descriptions of enlightenment summarize it perfectly.
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25m
Soh Wei YuAdmin
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David Mcdonald
2007:
(9:55 PM) Thusness: he (Soh: "Mike", who is now learning Dzogchen under Acarya Malcolm Smith recently) ask me whether are all religions ultimate goal the same and is buddhism the only way.
(9:55 PM) Thusness: and the 'mine' aspect
(9:56 PM) Thusness: and Amadeus's post do help.
(9:56 PM) Thusness: lol
(9:56 PM) AEN: amadeus post said wat
(9:56 PM) AEN: lol
(9:56 PM) AEN: then wat u told him?
(9:56 PM) Thusness: u din read ah
(9:56 PM) Thusness: i told him many times, AEN have oversold my 6 stages of experiences.
(9:56 PM) Thusness: lol
(9:57 PM) AEN: hahaha
(9:57 PM) AEN: orh amadeus said about the 'story of becoming a more spiritually enlightened being' lol
(9:58 PM) Thusness: and in the past i do think like all religions are the same....but now but my experience told me otherwise, buddhism is a very profound teachings.
(9:58 PM) Thusness: kekeeke
(9:58 PM) Thusness: yeah
(9:58 PM) Thusness: he should not fancy my stages.
(9:58 PM) Thusness: i only took 2 days to write. 🙂
(9:59 PM) AEN: Thusness says:
he ask me whether are all religions ultimate goal the same and is buddhism the only way.
Thusness says:
and the 'mine' aspect --> in tat case wat u ans him?
(9:59 PM) AEN: oic lol
(9:59 PM) Thusness: 'mine' is a form of insight and not about being an egoless fully compassionate superstar.
(10:00 PM) Thusness: and Advaita dissolves object into subject where as buddhism dissolves subject into object. Though the experientially they are the same, they are different in terms of insight.
(10:01 PM) Thusness: the profundity is not in words. If he wants he have to take up the path.
(10:01 PM) Thusness: he told me he has experienced different levels of I AMness.
(10:01 PM) Thusness: some is not stated in my stages of I AMness.
(10:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:02 PM) Thusness: I told him if his experiences has brought him clarity of what liberation is all about, then continue his path, there is no point changing.
(10:02 PM) Thusness: my experiences are not authentic. (Soh's correction: he later clarified that he meant 'not authoritative')
(10:03 PM) AEN: oic
(10:03 PM) Thusness: and that is not my way too.
(10:03 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:03 PM) AEN: huh
(10:03 PM) Thusness: i don't like to oversell or over emphasize anything. That is not my way.
(10:03 PM) AEN: oic
(10:03 PM) AEN: btw u got tell him about the 4 stages of 'i amness' isnt it
(10:03 PM) Thusness: nope
(10:03 PM) AEN: oic y not
(10:03 PM) AEN: hahah
(10:04 PM) Thusness: i don't push something to others.
(10:04 PM) Thusness: i do not like to oversell stuff.
(10:04 PM) Thusness: nor do i want anyone to know me...lol
(10:05 PM) AEN: hahaha
(10:05 PM) Thusness: spirituality requires utmost sincerity.
(10:06 PM) AEN: oic
(10:06 PM) Thusness: that is what i told him.
(10:06 PM) AEN: icic
(10:06 PM) Thusness: if the yuan is gone it is gone...there is no point over stressing anything.
(10:06 PM) AEN: what yuan is gone
(10:06 PM) Thusness: not to mistaken bodhisattva path as ego path leh
(10:07 PM) AEN: ego path?
(10:07 PM) Thusness: don't go around singing how enlightened a person is.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: ekkeeke
(10:07 PM) AEN: lol
(10:07 PM) Thusness: it requires yuan one.
(10:07 PM) Thusness: if not i go round whacking forum liao.
(10:08 PM) Thusness: one day 2 forums...whack here and there. 😛
(10:08 PM) Thusness: lol
(10:08 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(10:08 PM) AEN: so u're saying grim no 'yuan'??
(10:09 PM) Thusness: his ego does not allow good yuan to foster. 🙂
(10:09 PM) Thusness: so there will be a limit to understanding.
(10:09 PM) Thusness: unlike jonls and longchen. 🙂
(10:10 PM) Thusness: humble enough to seek advises.
----------------------
From AtR guide:
[24/3/19, 11:17:05 PM] John Tan: From the perspective of clarity, it is true that Buddhism anatta and emptiness is more profound and deep… lol. But still good to caution about respecting all religions and practice. Why empty clarity is only pointed out in buddhism. So although it is true about all points to pure consciousness, it is realizing the emptiness that is the prajna eye to allow us to clearly see the empty nature of clarity. Otherwise we will most likely land in alaya or [be] required to still in deep stillness of samadhi.
(On this point, I was reminded of something John Tan said back in I think 2012:
"Every religion is talking about consciousness. It is the nature of consciousness that is important. It is like talking about “Soh'' from different people. Of course all is pointing to "Soh" but when someone say he is an American, has 10 sisters and is now studying in India… we cannot say that he is correct and it is the same because ultimately we are talking about "Soh".")”
“Yes sahaja samadhi but that remain as "experience". Just like in taoism, it is all about naturalness 自然 and non-action (action without agent) though there are overlaps but they are different in praxis and view essentially. There is no need to forcefully integrate the various religions into one, that is just more attachment.
Although there is no monopoly over truth as ultimately all is/are talking about one's primordial nature but there are those that much clearer and precise in their system of practice. If the views and philosophies are 90% inherent and dualistic, the result from such a system will at best be a stage to be achieved albeit the emphasis of “natural state”.
As I said before, if someone were to say "Soh is a malay, a speckie, used to be a c# programmer, 1.9m tall and has a sister", obviously some informations are correct and some are misleading. Even if you were to stand right in front of him, he will not be able to recognize you. Therefore although all are talking about the natural condition of pristine consciousness, some are exceptionally clearer than others.” – John Tan, 2020
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Soh Wei YuAdmin
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Also related: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/09/are-all-religions-nonduality-same.html
Are all religions' nonduality the same?
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Are all religions' nonduality the same?
Are all religions' nonduality the same?
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David Mcdonald
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Soh Wei Yu Rupert Spira said Enlightenment could be defined as the absence of resistance to what is, the total intimacy with whatever is taking place without any desire to reject or replace it;
If Rupert has found genuine lasting peace freedom from suffering in life as he claims, I don’t think I can judge that or say he’s wrong and Buddhism is the only way to that. If he has experienced what he said above, wonderful! I still disagree with him about the nature of of awarness and I still think Buddhism is the clearest and most direct, but if he has found peace, is loving and compassionate what more am I to say?
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1h
Soh Wei Yu
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David Mcdonald Sure. "absence of resistance to what is" -- this part is like Eckhart Tolle's teachings also.
I remember the other day someone mentioned he met Rupert Spira on the train station who hilariously appeared totally pissed off and angry, something about the train ticket... can't remember the details, whether it was because he lost it or something, should be somewhere in this group or was it in reddit. So basically what I said about Eckhart also applies to Rupert.
But it shows that even though people can claim to be free from suffering, that doesn't necessarily mean they are free of all afflictions in the strict sense. Which is the Buddhist criterion for Buddhahood or arahantship. Just for example, arahantship, Buddha taught these strict criterias to gauge if someone has attained it https://suttacentral.net/mn112/en/sujato . Of course if someone has realized anatman (not just I AM or nondual), even that is just stream entry and these strict criterias may not apply for them.
SuttaCentral
SUTTACENTRAL.NET
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SuttaCentral
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26m
David Mcdonald
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Soh Wei Yu Yeah who knows what these people are like behind closed doors right?
I’m going to look at that link about Arahantship, it’s funny Daniel Ingram claims to have reached that yet he doesn’t seem like the type hahaha
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19m
Soh Wei Yu
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Also, Buddha accepts that other teachings can achieve varying degrees of purity.
“
In Cula-sihanada Sutta (MN 11) -- The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar {M i 63} [Ñanamoli Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans.] - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.011.ntbb.html , the Buddha declares that only through practicing in accord with the Dhamma can Awakening be realized. His teaching is distinguished from those of other religions and philosophies through its unique rejection of all doctrines of self. [BB]”
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Cula-sihanada Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar
Cula-sihanada Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar
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Soh Wei Yu
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David Mcdonald daniel ingram strictly rejects emotional or literal fetter model (what buddha verbally taught) of arahantship. For him arahantship is just anatta. We consider this just sutta stream entry
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15m
David Mcdonald
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Soh Wei Yu I see! Thanks for the clarification!
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14m
Soh Wei Yu
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As discussed also in https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/?utm_name=iossmf%20
From the streamentry community on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
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From the streamentry community on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
From the streamentry community on Reddit: [insight] [buddhism] A reconsideration of the meaning of "Stream-Entry" considering the data points of both pragmatic Dharma and traditional Buddhism
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