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[10:06 am, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Wrote yesterday:
Its all god
All divine
Appearances are divine
All is the one life one intelligence one clarity flow
Eat god taste god see god smell god sleep god
Liberate god - for god has no face of its own, only infinite faces
Everything - what a wonder, what a miracle
The ordinary are all miraculous activities and spiritual powers
Presence is infinite potentiality
Empty and hence infinite potentiality is possible
[10:06 am, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Its like more brahman than brahman but its nature is empty
[10:42 am, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Also all is spontaneously perfect. Its luminosity and emptiness. Absolutely no effort towards achieving something required.. its rather a release of ignorance, conditionings and fixations
[10:45 am, 12/09/2021] John Tan: U wrote?
[10:54 am, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
[10:57 am, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Its effect is like everything dissolved into spontaneity and presence.. spontaneous presencing
[11:01 am, 12/09/2021] John Tan: Yes
[11:01 am, 12/09/2021] John Tan: Outside, talk later
[2:01 pm, 12/09/2021] John Tan: Should not say everything is dissolved into spontaneity and presence also. Spontaneity and non-dual presence is simply one's natural condition. The conceptual and conventional are based on a paradigm of entities and characteristics resulting experiences appearing as dualistic and inherent.
When u go through the 2 stanzas, first stanza of non-doership is spontaneity and second stanza of luminosity is presence.
Why does seeing through a background construct, entities and characteristics result in insubstantial non-dual. If u r clear, then there is no arguments of empty of self nature and freedom from all elaborations. But the mind trying to integrate the two conceptually will face some challenges.
The key actually rest in anatta insight. If there is no background, one is left with the transient and exploring the nature of the transience. Groundlessness has to lead one this this insight, once this is clear, there will be no contradiction.
[3:01 pm, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah its clear spontaneous presence/spontaneous perfection is what is always already the case and has nothing to do with stages or achievement, buddha vs sentient being etc. Only adventitiously obscured
There is a feeling of divinity, of being the one intelligence, god, mind, life, awareness etc but not as a background but purely as all ongoing appearances. If there is a feeling of eternity it is not of an unchanging background but of infinite interpenetration of time and space and as if past present future are inseparable from this moment
[3:04 pm, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: If no background and no entity is not clear, this feeling of all pervading divinity easily gets reified into either a universal mind or solipsist thinking
[3:05 pm, 12/09/2021] Soh Wei Yu: Which is all forms of inherency thinking
[3:13 pm, 12/09/2021] John Tan: This is good. Read what I wrote to u when jack left.
Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
manifesting as everything whatsoever.
Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
Naturally
manifesting appearances, that never truly exist, are confused into
objects. Spontaneous intelligence, under the power of ignorance, is
confused into a self.
By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence.
May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut.
It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it.
It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
May the ultimate nature of phenomena, limitless mind beyond extremes, he realised.
If one says, "This is it," there is nothing to show.
If one says, "This is not it," there is nothing to deny.
The true nature of phenomena,
which transcends conceptual understanding, is unconditioned.
May conviction he gained in the ultimate, perfect truth.
Not realising it, one circles in the ocean of samsara.
If it is realised, buddha is not anything other.
It is completely devoid of any "This is it," or "This is not it."
May this simple secret, this ultimate essence of phenomena,
which is the basis of everything, be realised.
Appearance is mind and emptiness is mind.
Realisation is mind and confusion is mind.
Arising is mind and cessation is mind.
May all doubts about mind be resolved.
Not adulterating meditation with conceptual striving or mentally created meditation,
Unmoved by the winds of everyday busyness,
Knowing how to rest in the uncontrived, natural spontaneous flow,
May the practice of resting in mind's true nature be skilfully sustained.
The waves of subtle and coarse thoughts calm down by themselves in their own place,
And the unmoving waters of mind rest naturally.
Free from dullness, torpor, and, murkiness,
May the ocean of shamatha be unmoving and stable.
Looking again and again at the mind which cannot be looked at,
The meaning which cannot be seen is vividly seen, just as it is.
Thus cutting doubts about how it is or is not,
May the unconfused genuine self-nature he known by self-nature itself.
Looking at objects, the mind devoid of objects is seen;
Looking at mind, its empty nature devoid of mind is seen;
Looking at both of these, dualistic clinging is self-liberated.
May the nature of mind, the clear light nature of what is, be realised.
Free from mental fabrication, it is the great seal, mahamudra.
Free from extremes, it is the great middle way, madhyamika.
The consummation of everything, it is also called the great perfection, dzogchen.
Devoid of substantive reality and transcending speech,
Space, awakening mind and enlightenment
Possess the characteristics of non-duality.
47
Those abiding in the heart of enlightenment,
Such as the Buddhas, the great beings,
And all the great compassionate ones
Always understand emptiness to be like space.
Labels: Emptiness, Nagarjuna 0 comments | |
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[8:50
PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: For me I have my own way of sorting out my
view, experience and insights from Buddhist contexts. Where it starts
and stops. I m not a follower of faith.
[8:50 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Whereas certain forms of madhyamika, longchenpa and tsongkhapa dont necessarily buy thus
[8:51 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Prasangika do not care about mind at all
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Same for me post anatta...
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah in fact post anatta i resonate more with AF than yogacara
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: It is not that mind is not important in practice..
[8:52 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Except i see in terms of dependent origination and emptiness now
[8:53 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In zen though they say there is no mind, they in fact embrace mind more fully than all is mind, until no trace of mind can be detected. Yet [Ven.] Sheng Yen said this is just the entry point of zen because originally there is no mind and this is clearly realized in anatta. So post anatta, mind and phenomena are completely indisguishable. If both mind and phenomena are completely indistinguishable in experience, then distinctions are nothing more than conventional designation of empty luminous display. [8:54 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. btw did sheng yen realise anatta? [8:55 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: So you must know when we say no awareness, no self, no I, it doesnt mean nothing. It is seeing through the background construct and open the gate to directly taste, experience and effortless authenticate clarity. [8:56 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: I believe so but he did not talk about his experience except the stanza before his death that is beautiful.
[8:57 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. didnt see his stanza before
[9:10
PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Then u can't say phenomena is empty if u
resonate with AF. AF is based on the concreteness of phenomena.
[9:12 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: If u say u resonate, then emptiness cannot b anywhere resonating at all.
[9:13 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In fact just opposite as in the eight similes of illusion.
[9:25
PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I resonate with af in the sense that i do
not see an ultimate Self or cosmic mind at all, or one mind or all is
mind.. i only see luminous aggregates that are totally exerting as
infinitude of universe and time
[9:26
PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But yet not the same as AF because i see the
eight examples of illusion as applying to these luminous aggregates
[9:26 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: There is nothing wrong resonating with AF
[9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Just that u need to b clear, u can't b neither here nor there.
[9:27 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Mixing up everything
[9:28 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Basically like what ted biringer said about existence time except even that is empty
[9:28 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: So i dont see timeless formless absolute
[9:30
PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: If u see anatta as de-cosntruction of self,
then deconstructing further into object is just a natural progression.
[9:31
PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Unless one is stuck in seeing through self
with experience and have insight of no self but did not know the cause
of it.
[9:38 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[10:20 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: Do u know e main different between sutrayana and vajrayana?
[10:24 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm says view are the same but path different
[10:24 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe vajrayana deals with energy
[10:25 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: That is e main difference
[10:25 PM, 7/26/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[10:26 PM, 7/26/2020] John Tan: In fact all religions, science, new age or old age...lol ultimately must come to this
Yes, Soh,
indeed. The OP was answer to somebody insisting in asking what the
"vision of a cat" was based on "outside". I have tried several
approaches that did not work. I am curious about how will he react to
this one. The dude can notlet go of some "real nature" of things "out
there". Understand?
John Tan commented "This article is very well written and yogacara never really explicitly said that mind is ultimate. This idea privileging mind as ultimate over the relative phenomena was a later development."
He says ultimate mind is an epistemic realization and not something reified
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
Submitted 21 hours ago by nyanasagaramahayana
It is not existent nor nonexistent, not the same nor different;
Not produced nor destroyed, it will not diminish
Nor increase; it cannot be purified
Yet becomes perfectly pure—these are the characteristics of the ultimate.
Ornament of the Scriptures of the Great Vehicle, Maitreya, recited to Asaṅga
Mipham Comments:
According to the Mādhyamikas, it is not that all the phenomena that appear through the power of dependent arising are not existent on the relative, conventional level, nor that they are existent on the ultimate level; nor even that they are both existent and nonexistent. On the ultimate level, nonexistence is the true nature of phenomena that exist conventionally. So, apart from simply being distinguished by name, these two do not, in fact, exist as two distinct entities: they are like fire and its heat, or molasses and its sweetness. Could there, then, be a third possibility—that thatness is something that is neither existent on the relative level nor nonexistent on the ultimate level? No. There is no valid means of cognition that provides a proof for a third alternative that is neither a phenomenon nor an empty true nature. Such a third possibility could never be the intrinsic or true nature of conventional phenomena. The Mādhyamikas thus assert freedom from the four extremes (existence, nonexistence, both, and neither), freedom from all conceptual elaboration, the inseparability of the two truths—the inseparability of phenomena and their true nature—which has to be realized personally. This true nature free from conceptual elaboration is always the same in being devoid of production, destruction, diminution, and expansion. It has not as much as an atom’s worth of the characteristics of dualistic phenomena such as purity and impurity.
Now, the Cittamātra approach speaks of all phenomena being nothing other than simply the appearances of the mind, and it asserts that only the clear and aware consciousness of the dependent reality, the basis of perception, exists substantially. If the Cittamātrins’ final standpoint is the assertion that this consciousness is only a substantially existent entity inasmuch as it is the cause for all conventional phenomena appearing, and that apart from this assertion they are not claiming that it exists substantially as a truly existing entity in ultimate truth, then they are not at all in contradiction with the Mādhyamika tradition. On the other hand, if they were to assert that it is truly existent in ultimate truth, they would be contradicting the Mādhyamika approach. It seems, therefore, that it is just this particular point that needs to be examined as a source of contention (or otherwise) for the Mādhyamikas.
In the cycle of teachings of Maitreya and the writings of the great charioteer Asaṅga, whose thinking is one and the same, it is taught that individuals on the level of earnest aspiration first understand that all phenomena are simply the mind. Subsequently they have the experience that there is no object to be apprehended in the mind. Then, at the stage of the supreme mundane level on the path of joining, they realize that because there is no object, neither is there a subject, and immediately after that, they attain the first level with the direct realization of the truth of ultimate reality devoid of the duality of subject and object. As for things being only the mind, the source of the dualistic perception of things appearing as environment, sense objects, and a body is the consciousness of the ground of all, which is accepted as existing substantially on the conventional level but is taught as being like a magical illusion and so on since it appears in a variety of ways while not existing dualistically. For this reason, because this tradition realizes, perfectly correctly, that the nondual consciousness is devoid of any truly existing entities and of characteristics, the ultimate intentions of the charioteers of Madhyamaka and Cittamātra should be considered as being in agreement.
Why, then, do the Mādhyamika masters refute the Cittamātra tenet system? Because self-styled proponents of the Cittamātra tenets, when speaking of mind-only, say that there are no external objects but that the mind exists substantially—like a rope that is devoid of snakeness, but not devoid of ropeness. Having failed to understand that such statements are asserted from the conventional point of view, they believe the nondual consciousness to be truly existent on the ultimate level. It is this tenet that the Mādhyamikas repudiate. But, they say, we do not refute the thinking of Ārya Asaṅga, who correctly realized the mind-only path taught by the Buddha.
Because of the mind, the phenomena of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arise; if there were no mind, there would be no saṃsāra and no nirvāṇa. How? It is by the power of the mind that defilements create karma, subsequently producing the process of defilement that is saṃsāra. And it is with the mind that one gives rise to the wisdom of the realization of no-self and to compassion, practices the Mahāyāna path, and thereby achieves buddhahood, whose nature is the five kinds of gnosis, the transformation of the eight consciousnesses, and the ground of all. It is with the mind, too, that the listeners and solitary realizers realize the no-self of the individual and attain nirvāṇa, beyond the suffering of grasping at existence. So the roots of defilement and purity depend on the mind. Anyone who is a Buddhist has to accept this.
So, if this so-called “self-illuminating nondual consciousness” asserted by the Cittamātrins is understood to be a consciousness that is the ultimate of all dualistic consciousnesses, and it is merely that its subject and object are inexpressible, and if such a consciousness is understood to be truly existent and not intrinsically empty, then it is something that has to be refuted. If, on the other hand, that consciousness is understood to be unborn from the very beginning (i.e. empty), to be directly experienced by reflexive awareness, and to be self-illuminating gnosis without subject or object, it is something to be established. Both the Madhyamaka and Mantrayāna have to accept this. If there were no reflexively aware gnosis, or mind of clear light, it would be impossible for there to be a mind that realizes the truth of the ultimate reality on the path of learning; and at the time of the path of no more learning, the nirvāṇa without residue, the Buddha would have no omniscient gnosis. And in that case there would be no difference between the Buddha’s nirvāṇa and the nirvāṇa of the lower vehicles, which is like the extinction of a lamp, so how could one talk about the Buddha’s bodies (kāyas), different kinds of gnosis, and inexhaustible activities?
To sum up, thatness, which is the actual condition of all phenomena, is the completely unbiased union of appearance and emptiness, to be realized personally. If one realizes that it never changes in any situation, whether in the ground, path, or result, one will be saved from the abyss of unwholesome, extremist views.
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