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An Exposition on Selflessness According to Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

An exposition on selflessness (anātman) by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (1511-1587) from his text *Mahāmudrā: The Moonlight* with relevant citations from Mahāyāna scripture:

To identify the self and the mind’s clinging to it, it is said that although duality is devoid of essence, it is misconceived as possessing substantiality, due to inbred delusion. The mind develops attachments and clings to the two self-entities of subject and object. Conversely, the nonexistence of the two innate selves is nonduality.

Candrakīrti in his commentary to the *Catuḥśataka* says:

>*What is described as the self (ātman) is the essence or the inborn entity, the existence of which does not depend on external conditions. Selflessness (anātman) is without such a self. Selflessness of material and mental phenomena are so designated because the two distinctions are made in the form of material elements and personality (dharma and pudgala).*

Dharmakīrti says:

>*The dual realities categorized according to their inherent characteristics are designated as “dharmas” (the elements of material phenomena) while personality is stated to consist of man’s stream-consciousness (mindstream) that coalesces with the physical constituents.*

The *Dho Silbu* summarizes:

>*All [the realities of] the elements bearing inherent characteristics are designated as “dharmas.” The stream-consciousness is designated as personality (pudgala).*

The self of personality (pudgala-ātman) consists of the innate consciousness that assigns to itself, as its own nature, an eternal, independent entity and thereby clings to the notion of “I” or “self.” The self of material elements (dharma-ātman) is the product of the mind grasping at realities, such as the physical constituents of life, as being objective realities composed of innate substance and clinging to them as such. These two “selves” engender karma, defilement, affliction and harm.

Śrī Dharmakīrti comments:  

>*By conceiving of the self, one perceives the existence of others. Differentiating between self and others causes attachment and hatred. Entanglement with these causes afflictions.*

The *Ratnāvalī* elucidates:  

>*As long as clinging to the aggregates [of life] exists, so long does clinging to the self persist. Where there is clinging to the self, there is karma. Karma causes rebirth.*  

In order to eliminate the stream of existence caused by clinging to the self, it is essential to meditate upon the meaning of selflessness.  

Dharmakīrti states:  

>*Without subduing the subjective base of this [self], one cannot eliminate it.*

The *Catuḥśataka* comments:  

>*When one perceives nonselfhood in the perceptive base, the seed of cyclic existence will cease to exist.*

The *Madhyamakāvatāra* says:  

>*All defilements and afflictions originate from conceiving as real the transient aggregates of being. Only by perceiving this and investigating the realms of this self, can a yogin eliminate it [the self].*

Only by meditating upon the truth of nonselfhood can one eliminate the deluded view and the clinging to the “I” and “mine.” Such an elimination terminates rebirth caused by clinging, sensuality, and the rest. In this way liberation is fully achieved.  

The *Mūlamadhyamakakārikā* says:  

>*Upon the elimination of “I’ and “mine,” internal and external realities, the psychophysical aggregates will cease. With this, rebirth, karma and defilements will cease, and thus liberation will be achieved.*

The *Ratnāvalī* states:  

>*Assertion of the reality of “I” and “mine” is a distortion of the dharma.*  

The self of the personality is thus stated to be nonexistent. The logic concerning the nonexistent self states that, if it exists, it must emerge either in oneself, in others, in both or in the three periods of time. Since this self has not emerged in these, it is nonexistent. The same text states:  

>*Since the self has not emerged out of oneself, others, or both, nor been born in the three periods of time, clinging to the self can therefore be eliminated.*  

Furthermore, if the self of personality exists, it must necessarily be either identical to the psychophysical aggregates or distinct from them. Both of these hypotheses are untenable.  

The *Mūlamadhyamakakārikā* comments:  

>*When one says that no self exists except for the rebirth-seeking aggregates, it means that these aggregates are identical with the self. Then the self is indeed nonexistent.*

The same text states:  

>*If the aggregates are the self, then it too will be subject to birth and death.*  

Thus the contention that the self is identical with the psychophysical aggregates has been refuted. If one assumes that the [independent] self is subject to the cycle of birth and death, this [self-contradiction] will be refuted through the following inferences. [The self that lost its enduring nature would make the possibility of] recollecting untenable. Memory of a past life would not be possible, committed karma would not product results, and one would experience effects without karmic causes.  

The separate realities of the self and the aggregates are also refuted in the same text:  

>*If the self is a separate entity from the psychophysical aggregates, the characteristics of these aggregates become invalid.*

The same text continues:  

>*The self is an entity separate from the rebirth-seeking aggregates - this is untenable. For if objective reality without the aggregates were possible, then cognition would not be possible.*

In the *Madhyamakāvatāra,* it is said:  

>*For all these reasons the self does not exist apart from the aggregates; except for the aggregates, no perceiver exists.*

Eliminating the self of personality by implication negates the existence [of the substantive nature] of its parts such as the eyes, nose and the rest. 

The *Mūlamadhyamakakārikā* states:  

>*If the “I” does not exist, how can there be the “mine?”*

The *Madhyamakāvatāra* states:  

>*Because there is no actor, there is no action, for there can be no self of a person who is nonexistent. Therefore, the seeker of truth who conceives the emptiness of “I” and “mine” will achieve perfect liberation.*

The following is a summary of the meditation upon nonselfhood of personality, as stated in the first *Bhāvanākrama:*

>*There is no personality to be perceived apart from the aggregates, elements and sense faculties. The self is not the essence of the aggregates, etc., because they are essentially transient and composite, whereas personality has been defined by others [such as those of the Brahmanic tradition] as an eternal and independent essence. This self or another undefinable self cannot possibly exist as substantial entities, since there is no reality of substance. Establish all that is conceived as “I” and “mine” in the transient world as a total delusion!*

Wrote to someone:

View of self (the view that an inherently existing self/Self in any way, shape and form, not only as an agent, doer, perceiver, even the illusion of a great Self, an unchanging Awareness and so forth is seen through and penetrated as illusory) is gone, subject-object duality and agent-action and agency can be gone after anatta realization but subtle appropriation in terms of mine-ness can arise. It manifests as an activity of appropriation and grasping

If you feel the slightest sense of being sad or unhappy if “your house” has burned down, or “your wife” leaves you, or “you get late stage cancer and has 3 months left” and so on, it means subtle appropriation of aggregates in terms of mine-ness still manifest. Otherwise no mental afflictions, sadness, fears and so on arises.

This is related to the Khemaka Sutta where an anagami basically implied realised there is no I yet the lingering traces of appropriating aggregates continues like the residual smell of a jug where contents have been poured away. While explaining the dharma he and others had a breakthrough where they attained arahantship and purified the last traces.

John Tan wrote to me in 2007,

“(6:58 PM) Thusness: Now at the phase 3 and 4 there is a constant re-enforcing of the thought that all is really the ‘True Self’. The non-dual experience is the experience of ‘True Self’ and is made more vivid when the lucidity of “Self as Forms’ or “Emptiness as Forms” is made more obvious.

(6:58 PM) Thusness: Conventionally speaking this is true, but just like the experience “AMness” that failed to penetrate the insight of “non duality and spontaneity” of our nature, the ‘non-dual’ experience of “Everything as Self’ fail to address ‘one point’.

What is that ‘one point’?

(6:58 PM) Thusness: That ‘one point’ is the differentiation between ‘I’ and ‘Mine’. This may not sound logical as if there is no ‘I’, how could there be ‘mine’ and it may ‘seem’ only natural that no ‘I’ will naturally lead to ‘no mine’, which in my experience is far from being true.

(6:58 PM) Thusness: This from my understanding remains true even when the experience of “Awareness as Forms” is vividly clear, ‘mine’ is not eliminated. :) There is indeed a difference and a new level of insight that may not be obvious now will need to surface later.

(6:59 PM) AEN: this para to who? longchen?

(6:59 PM) Thusness: Therefore the unknowing referencing back to ‘Self as everything’ is indeed a very very subtle propensity of what Buddhism call the ‘bonds in 7th and 8th Consciousness’ in action. The egoic structure is still lingering there in consciousness. That is, it is not only true that the ‘sense of self is not the doer of action’ but the entire idea of ‘mine’, ‘I own’, is a wrong view.

(6:59 PM) AEN: phase 3 as in the article's phase 3?

(6:59 PM) AEN: oh

(6:59 PM) AEN: ur stage 3 and 4 experience?

(6:59 PM) Thusness: That is when a ‘thought arise’, it is not ‘mine thought’ or ‘your thought’, in fact any arising has no mine or I, but arising is due to our dharma nature according to conditionality, the experience of Dharmakaya.

(7:00 PM) Thusness: It is quite hard to express but there is in fact some truth about the 4 immeasurables of Bodhisattva path in relation to our nature and its relations with regards to the experience of higher bliss and liberation; but then I am not advocating as what Dharma Dan put it, to groom oneself into an altruistic superstar.

(7:00 PM) Thusness: If you encounter any blockage in your future experience, you may want to think along this line. It can help you break-through some karmic hindrances. My 2 cents. :)”

He also wrote to someone back then,

“For the purpose of discussion, you can treat as yes, that agent is gone, the 'bond' in consciousness that there is an agent is gone. But the “bond' of 'mine' is still lingering there in consciousness. Many mistaken that if

there is no ‘I', then there is no 'mine'? This is a logical deduction of the mind. Far from true in terms of practice. It has to do with how consciousness functions.”

A dharma friend of mine, Yin Ling once wrote:

“Just a sharing, and see if my xp resonates with others.

I receive a kind message asking about how I “see” my emotion world and thought world as opposed to others?

There is always a continuum of thoughts for this being and we are not privy to another’s thought, that is for sure.

So the person ask, does that not affect how the whole “no self” experience?

I gave that a serious contemplation this morning’s meditation and look into my xp.

I realise there is two parts of the no self insight.

First part is like in the first few sentences of the Bahiya Sutta, “in the seen only the seen” and etc.

Manifestation and awareness arise in and of itself, without a seer, doer, hearer. That is clear when initial no self insight arise.

However xp always seen to be appropriated somewhere - like “my thoughts”, “my emotions” “my cognized” “my music” becusse we can’t see other ppls thoughts and emotions and we can’t hear what the hear.

There is this subtly “mine-ness” in xp, which is still an attachment.

Suddenly this morning the last part of Bahiya sutta sprung forth into attention - there is no you here, there is no you there, there is no you in between.. this is the end of suffering.

For all experience, there is no appropriation to a “you” or “mine”. Just that itself is all.

Imo, The Buddha was trying to teach us to dis-identified with “mine” in the second part, less of an I , as the I should be seen through in the first part of Bahiya sutta.

When there is no you/mine-ness in these emotions and thoughts, and they arise just dependently from conditions, not being appropriated to any person, all xp becomes equal and there is no worries of other ppls emotions and thoughts because even the emotions and thoughts that feels to be for this person here are not even “mine”. Xp sync!

I do love the Bahiya sutta. 😁😬”

Even after all traces of self-clinging and appropriation is obliterated completely along all traces to cling and any traces and tendencies towards any mental afflictions, which is a rare achievement, that is still like arahantship or eighh bhumi. There is still some ways to Buddhahood as the famous Tibetan Dzogchen Master Jamgon Mipam explained.

"PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT

What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.

These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”

The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.

The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.

Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.

As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.

- Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"

 John Tan:

明心还需见空性，明空性也需证妙心。

Soh’s translation:

"After apperceiving the (radiant/luminous) mind, one still needs to see the nature of emptiness; even understanding the nature of emptiness, one also needs to realize to the marvelous heart (Mind)."

----

Other relevant quotes:

“Should be recognition of radiance clarity is implied and naturally realized.

The recognition should be directly into realizing appearances as empty clarity therefore both 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) as both are merely conventionally designated and dependently arise.

As 五祖 (ChatGPT translate: the Fifth Patriarch) told 慧能 (ChatGPT translate: Huineng), 不识本心 学法无益 (ChatGPT translate: Not knowing the original mind, learning the Dharma is of no benefit). Like 10 ox herding pictures, 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) comes at a later phase.”

“Even when clarity is authenticated, still one got to differentiate between no-mind and anatta. Then "I" as reified construct and extend to phenomena to realized primodial purity of one's mind.”

—-

John Tan's reply on something Malcolm wrote in 2020:

“This is like what I tell you and essentially emphasizing 明心非见性. 先明心, 后见性. (Soh: Apprehending Mind is not seeing [its] Nature. First apprehend Mind, later realise [its] Nature).

First is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind). There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of "consciousness" without intermediaries. They are the same.

However that is not realization of emptiness. Realization of emptiness is 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature). Imo there is direct path to 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind) but I have not seen any direct path to 见性 (Soh: Seeing Nature) yet. If you go through the depth and nuances of our mental constructs, you will understand how deep and subtle the blind spots are.

Therefore emptiness or 空性 (Soh: Empty Nature) is the main difference between buddhism and other religions. Although anatta is the direct experiential taste of emptiness, there is still a difference between buddhist's anatta and selflessness of other religions -- whether it is anatta by experiential taste of the dissolution of self alone or the experiential taste is triggered by wisdom of emptiness.

The former focused on selflessness and whole path of practice is all about doing away with self whereas the latter is about living in the wisdom of emptiness and applying that insight and wisdom of emptiness to all phenomena.

As for emptiness there is the fine line of seeing through inherentness of Tsongkhapa and there is the emptiness free from extremes by Gorampa. Both are equally profound so do not talk nonsense and engaged in profane speech as in terms of result, ultimately they are the same (imo).”

Dalai Lama - "Nature - there are many different levels. Conventional level, one nature. There are also, you see, different levels. Then, ultimate level, ultimate reality... so simply realise the Clarity of the Mind, that is the conventional level. That is common with Hindus, like that. So we have to know these different levels...." 

-- See more at Recognizing Rigpa vs Realizing Emptiness, and the Different Modalities of Rigpa 

-----

[20/3/24, 11:51:11 PM] John Tan: Currently u r just practicing natural opening of radiance right?

[20/3/24, 11:56:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: mostly yes

[20/3/24, 11:58:40 PM] John Tan: Yes and u believe and have great confidence that focusing on the purity and undeserving openning of one's radiance led to liberation correct?

[20/3/24, 11:58:52 PM] John Tan: Unreserved

[20/3/24, 11:59:41 PM] Soh Wei Yu: yes but i think that is also contingent on how clear is one's insight into emptiness

[20/3/24, 11:59:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: for example anatta is also one type of wisdom into emptiness.. the initial one

[21/3/24, 12:00:03 AM] Soh Wei Yu: without that its not even possible to openly taste radiance as appearance for example

[21/3/24, 12:01:03 AM] John Tan: Yes what else?

[21/3/24, 12:03:34 AM] Soh Wei Yu: emptiness must extend to all self and phenomena as reified, mere names and imputations, non-arisen... and must lead to presence as free from extremes, illusory in taste, like space, a kind of insubstantial presence-absence rather than solid and real. beyond that theres still subtler cognitive obscurations

[21/3/24, 12:08:07 AM] John Tan: In one sense yes but the purpose is see without confusion what exactly are conventional in our thoughts moments and we will understand clearly all our discussions above.  Especially after anatta.

[21/3/24, 12:08:55 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:11:21 AM] John Tan: Now I ask u, is ur body more important than empty radiance?

[21/3/24, 12:20:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm.. they are inseparable.. thats why yoga etc are important

[21/3/24, 12:22:03 AM] John Tan: Normal exercises will do to balance ur energy before one is in a natural state of effortless and unreserved openning.

[21/3/24, 12:23:15 AM] John Tan: Exotic poses can harm ur body if not carefully practice esp without proper guidiance

[21/3/24, 12:23:29 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:24:49 AM] Soh Wei Yu: my dad told me when you demonstrated some poses or asanas, it seemed quite extreme and maybe harmful lol.. i told him its because you practice for many many years and are flexible and you also warned about dangers of extreme yoga before

[21/3/24, 12:25:10 AM] John Tan: Yeah

[21/3/24, 12:26:12 AM] John Tan: Not suitable for ppl without guidance. Not advisable for ppl.  Just normal exercises will do.

[21/3/24, 12:26:19 AM] Soh Wei Yu: i see..

[21/3/24, 12:26:47 AM] John Tan: I dun advice ppl to practice that way.

[21/3/24, 12:26:57 AM] Soh Wei Yu: oic..

[21/3/24, 12:27:38 AM] John Tan: But for u, u need to discipline to do some exercises to balance over focus of radiance.

[21/3/24, 12:27:54 AM] Soh Wei Yu: ic..

[21/3/24, 12:41:27 AM] John Tan: Also u got to have clear understanding of what if one only focus on emptiness of conventional yet without any taste of radiance.

[21/3/24, 12:57:48 AM] Soh Wei Yu: then its just a cessation of concepts and reification on a mental level only right

[21/3/24, 1:02:26 AM] John Tan: Not exactly, cessation of concepts and reification  should lead to direct taste of radiance.

[21/3/24, 1:03:53 AM] John Tan: More like non-attachment due to seeing through, what will experience be like?  Go sleep.

[21/3/24, 2:07:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Hmm.. more like a mental release i think. But it will still be inferential understanding of emptiness rather than a sort of realising of our nature isnt it

[21/3/24, 2:08:02 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://youtu.be/f8y0QKXZGHs?si=o26rUnamdVvBwCgC

[21/3/24, 2:08:20 PM] Soh Wei Yu: First thirty minutes talk about anatta, emptiness, hinayana vs mahayana vs brahman

...

[21/3/24, 9:57:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=oXi_WOnOLmE

[22/3/24, 12:57:56 AM] Soh Wei Yu: im going to Taiwan tmr lol

[22/3/24, 12:57:56 AM] Soh Wei Yu: sat and sunday will be at his monastery for short retreat

[22/3/24, 8:04:55 AM] John Tan: 👍

[22/3/24, 8:09:47 AM] John Tan: 👍

[22/3/24, 8:30:46 AM] John Tan: Yes quite good.

....

[22/3/24, 8:36:38 AM] John Tan: This is like the question I asked u yesterday, does realizing emptiness of conventional lead to authentication of one's radiance?

[22/3/24, 8:51:39 AM] Soh Wei Yu: So in his case his is from realizing emptiness of the conventional leading to authentication of radiance?

[22/3/24, 8:52:35 AM] Soh Wei Yu: I would say.. If one can truly see through the conventional subject action object structure, it will lead to authenticating radiance as appearance

[22/3/24, 8:56:12 AM] John Tan: Not exactly.  Rather from realizing emptiness of conventional into spontaneous perfection and self liberation.

[22/3/24, 8:58:19 AM] John Tan: That is what I said yesterday, it is not possible to see through "reification" and not recognize appearances as one's radiance.

But one can keep practicing penetrating emptiness of the conventional and not authenticate radiance.  During this intermediate phase, what is it like is my question to u yesterday.

‎[22/3/24, 8:59:22 AM] John Tan: ‎image omitted

[22/3/24, 8:59:25 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. hmm like first stanza of anatta without going into second?

[22/3/24, 9:01:04 AM] John Tan: Something like that.  So u need to know the emptiness 法门 (Soh: the dharma door of emptiness), radiance 法门 (Soh: the dharma door of radiance) and then 大圆满 (Soh: great perfection/spontaneous perfection).

[22/3/24, 9:03:52 AM] John Tan: Actually no matter which path when practice with the right understanding can lead to self liberation if we have the right understanding and view from start.

However during the journey, practitioners need more season practitioners to point out to them what they lack.

[22/3/24, 9:04:23 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[22/3/24, 9:05:09 AM] John Tan: That is y u need to know clearly, the intermediate phase if without authentication of radiance or radiance without understanding emptiness of phenomena.

...

[22/3/24, 9:12:22 AM] John Tan: Yes because u start from I M to the recognition of appearances as radiance clarity but lack direct insight of how emptiness of conventional can equally lead to that.  

That is y I m now trying to lead u to see that from all those questionings.

[22/3/24, 9:14:20 AM] John Tan: It is not that "emptiness" alone cannot lead to authentication of radiance, it will but only at the mature phase.

[22/3/24, 9:15:06 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[22/3/24, 9:15:58 AM] John Tan: However for those that can see and understand it and skewed towards 顽空 then pointing radiance is necessary.

[22/3/24, 9:17:06 AM] John Tan: Actually the 7 phases of insights r quite complete already, just need to refine proper wordings and explanations.

...

John Tan:

“Should be recognition of radiance clarity is implied and naturally realized.

The recognition should be directly into realizing appearances as empty clarity therefore both 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) as both are merely conventionally designated and dependently arise.

As 五祖 (ChatGPT translate: the Fifth Patriarch) told 慧能 (ChatGPT translate: Huineng), 不识本心 学法无益 (ChatGPT translate: Not knowing the original mind, learning the Dharma is of no benefit). Like 10 ox herding pictures, 能所双亡 (ChatGPT translate: both subject and object are not found) comes at a later phase.

Even when clarity is authenticated, still one got to differentiate between no-mind and anatta. Then "I" as reified construct and extend to phenomena to realized primodial purity of one's mind.”

"This.  He already clearly implied radiance in emptiness."

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Jake Yeager

This is related to a conversation between Thusness/John Tan and Sim Pern Chong in early 2007:

Sim:

It is like what i have said before there is various depths to non-duality.

There appears to be 2 distinct 'levels' of non-duality...to me.

In the first level, mental thoughts are still quite active. Here thoughts arises but there is no thinker. Here no subject-object split is clearly understood.

At this level there is the ‘insight’ of no-self but momentum continues.

However momentum stops being re-enforced.

And there is another distinct level that mental thoughts loses it attraction all together. In this level, there feels like cognitions have

been de-constructed.

Thusness:

There are several reasons:

1. Here most of the propensities that resulted from holding to the illusion view of a background begin to subside.

2. When background subsides, Natural awareness takes place and there is natural tendency to feel everything directly, the burden is being more equally distributed to the rest of the five senses instead of being skewed to just

‘thinking’ alone.

3. A subtle “insight” is about to take place or has already taken place. It is the “insight” that ‘content’ is the problem of all problems. It is what that conjured out all sorts of illusions, fears and worries.

4. The practice of the second door is gaining strength at the pre-conscious

level.

Sim:

This is a blissful level and it feels like resting on 'nothing'.

Thusness/John:

It is resting on ‘nothing of content’ but it is resting on ‘peace, clarity, blissfulness, vitality’. Here focus is gradually shifting from "content" of the mind to "qualities" of the mind. The qualities of mind has nothing to do with “content".

Sim:

But without the first level non-duality, the second level cannot be moved into.

Thusness/John Tan:

This need not be the case. The first level of ‘insight’ is more important from my point of view. It is what that leads to Oneness. A person that practices mindfulness may enter the second level u mentioned without first having that ‘non-dual’ insight of the first level, this in fact has been my case for many years. It is due to the ability to sustain for a prolong period of bare attention or non-conceptuality. The understanding of no-self here can still remain as ‘no-personal self' or as a form of mirror bright clarity that is free of labels but the mirror still exist in a dualistic form. In the second level, the sense of ego diminishes but the attachment of a background is still strong and insight into

"non-dual" has not really aroused.

Edited by Thusness 31 Jan `07, 9:33PM

(Source: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss... )

——

However, Gary Weber and Bernadette Roberts lack the insight of anatta. The former is into I AM and impersonality (see: different degrees of no self that I wrote: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degress...) while the latter is the transition from I AM into nondual but not yet realising the seal of anatta (Bernadette is discussed in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-mind-and-anatta... )

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Thusness's Conversations Between 2004 to 2012

Thusness's Conversations Between 2004 to 2012

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Craig Nichols

Soh Wei Yu Is the *permanent* ending of self-referential "blah blah" thoughts / a silent mind associated with any ATR stage in particular?

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Craig Nichols it is related to what john tan calls transforming five skandhas to eighteen dhatus

I have like tons of conversations on this subject in earlier years with john tan (somehow unpublished yet, i should probably post as a separate blog post) but im travelling now and will post later

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Craig Nichols but do note it can just be impersonality without anatta insight as in the case of gary, etc.

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Craig Nichols it is very difficult for me to copy texts from iphone from my source document (chat logs) due to new restrictions so this should suffice for now, see the first conversation dated 14 sept 2007: Session Start: Friday, 14 September, 2007

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../some-2007...

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Some 2007 conversations from phone notes

Some 2007 conversations from phone notes

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Craig Nichols just updated the page again

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With the “

2008:

(11:56 AM) Thusness: longchen is like entering the 18 dhatus.

(11:56 AM) AEN: icic..

(11:57 AM) Thusness: or into DO (dependent origination)

(11:57 AM) Thusness: just the arising and passing away

(11:57 AM) Thusness: without the need for a center, a locality in a non-conceptual mode. 

(11:58 AM) AEN: oic..

(11:59 AM) Thusness: depending on the depth of clarity and the ability to drop, there is a very deep joy in whatever arises in a normal condition.

(12:00 PM) Thusness: it is a sort of bliss of luminous presence without the sense of self, division, locality and conceptuality

(12:00 PM) Thusness: it can also turn into a sort of absorption.

(12:00 PM) Thusness: that is the result of clear insight of our empty luminosity.

(12:00 PM) Thusness: not the result of deep concentration.

(12:01 PM) Thusness: this is very difficult to understand.

(12:01 PM) Thusness: it is an effortless absorption.

———

Session Start: Friday, August 22, 2008

(12:29 AM) Thusness: U must watch the second video

(12:29 AM) AEN: which one

(12:29 AM) AEN: the one that explains oneness rite

(12:30 AM) Thusness: And know the difference betw” etc

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Craig Nichols

Soh Wei Yu thank you so much for your detailed reply. I read through the chat log. Is it OK if I ask how it proceeded for you?

In other words, is what John Tan wrote about 5 aggregates into 18 dhatus the specific set of insights that led to how self-referential thoughts (blah blah thoughts, the kind of incessant ongoing internal monologue) fell away for you and left you with a silent mind?

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Craig Nichols Craig Nichols boarding plane now to overseas. Will post briefly, the details are in my e journal.

Inclination to silence and samadhi is there even at I AM phase. Similar to ramana maharshi, eckhart tolle (have you read the power of now?) and gary.

As john tan said years ago, “Like being silent and experience luminosity is in everyone that break-through IMness.

Like hearing music or gazing sky, there is not even a sense of dual and background. When sitting quietly listening to music, the clarity of sound is no diff from my heart beats...even drips of water of a tap...

However this is not the practice of mature practitioners.”

I went through various gradations of nondual experience after anatta which matured over the next years. The details can be found in my ejournal, but as a summary its rather similar to https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../different-degrees...

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The Different Degrees of Non-Duality

The Different Degrees of Non-Duality

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Craig Nichols

Soh Wei Yu thanks, have a safe flight

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In feb 2007:

(10:22 PM) Thusness: i termed it myself...lol

(10:22 PM) AEN: oh haha

(10:22 PM) Thusness: as a distinct phase of crystal clarity.

(10:22 PM) AEN: oic

(10:22 PM) Thusness: going through all 3 phases.

(10:23 PM) Thusness: in the first round one is unable to break through all 3 phases

(10:23 PM) Thusness: although there is no entry or exit in non-dual.

(10:23 PM) AEN: icic

(10:24 PM) Thusness: it is not that there is a second round.

(10:24 PM) Thusness: lol

(10:24 PM) Thusness: as what longchen said. 

(10:25 PM) AEN: icic

(10:25 PM) AEN: oh but i tot u can maintain non dual in sleep? 

(10:26 PM) Thusness: there is no need to maintain anything during deep sleep.

(10:26 PM) Thusness: it is non-dual by itself.

(10:26 PM) Thusness: more pure than anything. 

(10:26 PM) Thusness: but just like what longchen said in one of his posts, there are various phases

(10:27 PM) Thusness: in the first phase, there is no thinker but thinking

(10:27 PM) Thusness: in later refinement of non-duality, there is no thoughts and thoughts have lost their attraction.

(10:28 PM) AEN: back

(10:28 PM) AEN: oic...

(10:28 PM) AEN: no thoughts meaning few thoughts rite... not no thoughts 

(10:28 PM) Thusness: but these are not phases of non dual. Rather they are the different degrees of luminosity

(10:28 PM) Thusness: yeah

(10:29 PM) AEN: ok

(10:29 PM) AEN: icic

(10:29 PM) Thusness: there is always non-dual like what longchen said.

(10:29 PM) Thusness: means he has understood it as a seal.

(10:29 PM) Thusness: no-self is a seal.

(10:29 PM) Thusness: a dharma seal.

——

Also see:

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../are-insight-stages...

Are the insight stages strictly linear?

I wrote this based on what Thusness/PasserBy have said regarding his Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Experience on Spiritual Enlightenment - not to think of the 7 stages as strictly linear or having a hierarchy.

Some are able to understand the profound wisdom of emptiness from the start but have no direct experience of luminosity, then luminosity becomes a later phase. So does that mean the most pristine experience of "I AM" is now the last stage? On the other hand, some have experienced luminosity but does not understand how he got himself 'lost', as there is no insight to the karmic tendencies/propensities at all, therefore they cannot understand Dependent Origination adequately. But does that mean that the one that experiences emptiness is higher than the one experiencing luminosity?

Some people experience non-dual but do not go through the I AM, and then after non-dual the I AM becomes even more precious because it brings out the luminosity aspect more. Also, when in non-dual, one can still be full of thoughts, therefore the focus then is to experience the thoroughness of being no-thoughts, fully luminous and present... then it is not about non-dual, not about the no object-subject split, it is about the degree of luminosity for these non-dualist. But for some monks that is trapped in luminosity and rest in samadhi, then the focus should be on refining non-dual insight and experience. For non-dualists, depending on the level of understanding, one can move forward and backward, there is no hierarchy.

So just see the phases as different aspect of insights of our true nature, not necessarily as linear stages or a 'superiority' and 'inferiority' comparison. What one should understand is what is lacking in the form of realization. There is no hierarchy to it, only insights. Understanding this means that one will be able to see all stages as flat, no higher.

Labels: Stages of Enlightenment |

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Are the insight stages strictly linear?

Are the insight stages strictly linear?

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