Showing posts with label Dependent Origination. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Dependent Origination. Show all posts
In my previous post, I asked a question that was a quote from someone else. I should have crafted my own question and will attempt to do so now.
I am very appreciative of the wisdom that is shared in this group and especially the amazing contributions of Soh.
If any one wants to continue to answer my question, my request would be using only YOUR words, not links to other authors/teachers or books or ATR links of JT quotes.

I am hoping that answers could be in a few sentences or paragraphs as the truth should not require many words.
I understand that this query is significantly limited by my current level of clarity of awakening and language in general.
Soh Wei Yu
I think you wrote the following, please correct me if wrong.
Manifestation, being dependently arisen, is empty of anything truly existent. What dependently originates does not come from anywhere or go to anywhere - there isn't some ultimate source behind arising. There is just an empty and luminous apparition, a shimmering display of appearances that is fundamentally non-arising.

Even so called nothingness is just mere manifestation, mere appearance, that passes. Waking state passes. Dream state passes. Deep sleep passes. Nothingness, presence, etc all passes - contrary to what many masters say, there is in fact nothing special, ultimate or unchanging about these. None of these are I, me, mine. All of them are like dreams, illusions, bubbles and shadows.
Awareness is perception. Even what seems to transcend all this, is still more manifestation.
The above is a very clear statement.
My question is as follows:
From above: “there isn’t some ultimate source behind arising”. Without attempting to reify anything or go Advaita, logic dictates that there cannot be something from nothing. What would that nothing be? Undeniably, experience is. What is this isness from which arisings spring?
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Preston Putzel
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The undeniable nature of experience is nothing but the appearances. Appearances are unceasing and undeniable. That's it. We don't need an "isness" from which appearances spring. All ideas of 'isness' behind appearances actually depend on the appearances themselves! So it's a strangely circular question to ask where the isness comes from that "arisings spring" out of. All notions of 'isness' are nothing but conceptual proliferations built on top of appearances.
Notions of something and nothing also depend on appearances, not the other way around. So appearances are freed from the proliferations "something" and "nothing".
As to the exact way that appearances appear, this is just dependent arising. But since nothing is established by dependent arising we don't need to ask where it comes from. We don't need to ask 'how could something come from nothing?', because no 'something' is ultimately established. What is 'established' is nothing but an illusory appearance.
Those appearances do follow relative rules, in the same way that inside the story world of harry potter there are relative rules about how, for example, spells are cast (say a magic word, wave the wand a certain way lol). The world of Harry Potter is not ultimately established, and yet what appears in that world has self-consistency and relative validity to the other appearances in that world. All appearances are like this. Clearly apparent, but illusory, dreamlike, without substance, not truly established. Yet like a story book what appears still follows rules which are conventionally valid.
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Soh Wei Yu
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Appearance is isness. There is no background from which arising springs, be it a 'something' or a 'nothing'. Isness is the springing, the arising. Experience is only ever the appearance, there is no experiencer or experiencing besides that appearance, no more than the wind blowing has a blower or that wind exists as anything besides a name for the blowing. That extra agent is a deluded reification, and seeing through that is the realization of anatta.
An ultimate background substratum or source behind appearance is precisely the illusion seen through in anatta realization, only vivid radiant appearance itself knows and rolls without a knower. Without that insight, one does not go beyond I AM or at most substantialist nondual realization.
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
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Soh Wei Yu
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Zen Master Dogen:
Mind is skin, flesh, bones and marrow. Mind is taking up a flower and smiling. There is having mind and having no mind... Blue, yellow, red, and white are mind. Long, short, square, and round are mind. The coming and going of birth and death are mind. Year, month, day, and hour are mind. The coming and going of birth and death are mind. Water, foam, splash, and flame are mind. Spring flowers and autumn moon are mind. All things that arise and fall away are mind.
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Dogen:
‘Mind as mountains, rivers, and the earth is nothing other than mountains, rivers, and the earth. There are no additional waves or surf, no wind or smoke. Mind as the sun, the moon, and the stars is nothing other than the sun, the moon, and the stars.’
----
“For Dōgen, Buddha-nature or Busshō (佛性) is the nature of reality and all Being. In the Shōbōgenzō, Dōgen writes that “whole-being (Existence itself) is the Buddha-nature” and that even inanimate things (grass, trees, etc.) are an expression of Buddha-nature. He rejected any view that saw Buddha-nature as a permanent, substantial inner self or ground. Dōgen held that Buddha-nature was “vast emptiness”, “the world of becoming” and that “impermanence is in itself Buddha-nature”.[23] According to Dōgen: Therefore, the very impermanency of grass and tree, thicket and forest is the Buddha nature. The very impermanency of men and things, body and mind, is the Buddha nature. Nature and lands, mountains and rivers, are impermanent because they are the Buddha nature. Supreme and complete enlightenment, because it is impermanent, is the Buddha nature.[24] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dōgen#Buddha-nature
Dōgen - Wikipedia
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Dōgen - Wikipedia
Dōgen - Wikipedia
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Soh Wei Yu
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But to answer more precisely 'where it comes from', the answer is, if you read my other thread, you will know that 'from where' does not apply. There is only ever this presencing-appearance that dependently originates, and what dependently originates never truly originated. I won't elaborate here as you will need to read a bit more.
If you want a simple answer, this presencing-appearance rolls on via dependent origination without an agent, nor an ultimate source, nor a background.. without beginning and end. No beginning, and definitely no ultimate beginning or origin either, and if you wanna get a little intellectual, we can say, Buddhists have no problem with the infinite regression of beginningless dependent origination on a relative level -- infinite regression is not a problem or illogical to us, instead the whole 'uncaused Cause' is itself illogical to us (if everything must originate from a creator source, why doesn't that logic also apply to the creator?). There is simply no starting point from which this 'the whole thing started'. With insight it is so clearly seen that there is only ever luminous manifestation, there is no such thing as an 'unmanifest source', and no such thing as some kind of unmanifest God that got bored with its loneliness and thus want to 'play'. No such thing at all, the stream of consciousness has always been inseparable from conditions without beginning for countless lifetimes, and there is no ultimate beginning state 'prior manifestation'. Even the nothingness of deep sleep is just another illusory phenomena, another transient state no less empty than any other appearance, like dreams and illusions. So is the pure formless presence realized in I AM yet another manifestation -- no more/less purer, no more/less empty and no more/less luminous than pure sight-presence-consciousness and so on.
But the dependent origination and emptiness is deep and will need some time to discover its depths and profundity.
tl/dr: this moment of consciousness is the total exertion/dependent origination of all conditions of all times and all space, which includes importantly, a previous moment of consciousness (and this stream of consciousness can be traced back into infinite past and will continue into infinite future).
Consciousness is the momentary manifestation/appearance of each moment, and not some kind of background and substratum. A permanent consciousness or substratum is Advaita view, not in line with Buddhist insight of anatta.
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Stephen Metcalf
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Soh Wei Yu thank you !
Tommy McNally
I may be misunderstanding your question, but I'd say the short answer is the habitual pattern of ignorance which leads to the appearance of arising in the first place.
The direct experience of dharmata makes it clear that questions of something vs. nothing come from the same deluded mind that causes us to perceive ourselves as independently existent entities.
I'm on my way somewhere right now, but I'll add more/answer/clarify whenever I get a chance.
Look at your experience and see that this self-arising display of light and colour is truly miraculous! No beginnings or endings beyond their mental imputation!!
Aditya Prasad
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There is a problem with "logic dictates." Where does logic come from, if not your mind? How can it dictate the nature of reality? It gets us into all sorts of messes, like "if there is observation, there must be an observer."
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Soh Wei Yu
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On dependent origination of consciousness
Something I wrote before:
• ⁠The six types of consciousness are also provisional, but it is important in order to deconstruct the idea that consciousness is a singular and unchanging/inherently existing consciousness like brahman, some unchanging substance independent of conditions and various manifestations. The point is to point out the emptiness of inherent existence of consciousness, and also to point out dependent origination. The raft of the teachings of aggregates, six consciousness are not meant to be clung to or reified. See the sutta where Buddha scolded Bhikkhu Sati for holding substantialist view of consciousness: https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
Buddha: “* Misguided man, have I not stated in many discourses consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness?”
….
Buddha: ““Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds, it is reckoned as ear-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the nose and odours, it is reckoned as nose-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and flavours, it is reckoned as tongue-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the body and tangibles, it is reckoned as body-consciousness; when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness. Just as fire is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it burns—when fire burns dependent on logs, it is reckoned as a log fire; when fire burns dependent on faggots, it is reckoned as a faggot fire; when fire burns dependent on grass, it is reckoned as a grass fire; when fire burns dependent on cowdung, it is reckoned as a cowdung fire; when fire burns dependent on chaff, it is reckoned as a chaff fire; when fire burns dependent on rubbish, it is reckoned as a rubbish fire—so too, consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it arises. When consciousness arises dependent on the eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye-consciousness…when consciousness arises dependent on the mind and mind-objects, it is reckoned as mind-consciousness.”
——-
Also, the Dalai Lama also have quoted and commented on this sutta in his recent book:
• ⁠
• ⁠“Because it is easy to consider consciousness with its thoughts, feelings, moods, and opinions to be the person, it is worthwhile to examine this notion more closely. The Buddha clearly states that consciousness is not the self. In the Greater Sutta on the Destruction of Craving, he calls Bhikṣu Sāti and questions him about his wrong view that the consciousness is the self. The following dialogue ensues (MN 38.5):
• ⁠(The Buddha): Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another?
• ⁠(Sāti): Exactly so, Venerable Sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.
• ⁠(The Buddha): What is that consciousness, Sāti?
• ⁠(Sāti): Venerable Sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the “ the result of good and bad actions.
• ⁠(The Buddha): Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many discourses consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness?
• ⁠Sāti’s view is that consciousness exists in and of itself, independent of conditions. Saying the self is that which speaks shows the I as an agent of the action of speaking. Saying the self feels is the notion that the I is a passive subject that experiences. “Here and there” indicates the self as a transmigrator that remains unchanging as it passes through many rebirths. This consciousness or self goes from life to life, creating karma and experiencing its results, but not being transformed or changing in the process. It has an unchanging identity that remains the same as it experiences one event after another and goes from one life to the next. In short, Sāti views the consciousness as an ātman or Self.
• ⁠The commentary explains that Sāti was an expert in the Jātaka Tales, in which the Buddha recounts his previous lives, saying, “At that time, I was[…]”
• ⁠Excerpt From
• ⁠Realizing the Profound View
• ⁠Bhikṣu Tenzin Gyatso, Bhikṣuṇī Thubten Chodron
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Stephen Metcalf
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Thanks Soh!
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