Soh Wei YuAdminAnisor Marie "Should I stop seeking the answers? Some teachers say to stop and others say to keep seeking for deeper awakening and eventual full realization. "Was reminded of this conversation with John Tan in 2007:Session Start: Tuesday, 18 September, 2007(8:54 PM) Thusness: what ur teacher chen is saying is more like as if u never existed...(8:54 PM) Thusness: and thoughts just spontaneously happen(8:54 PM) AEN: icic..(8:55 PM) Thusness: as what i have told u.(8:55 PM) Thusness: however u will not understand what is the meaning of this.(8:55 PM) AEN: oic(8:55 PM) AEN: its also something like self liberation rite(8:55 PM) Thusness: it is but it is the sensation.(8:55 PM) AEN: icic..(8:55 PM) Thusness: it is not an analogy(8:56 PM) Thusness: and when we tok about non-duality, what does that mean?(8:56 PM) AEN: no separate self apart from whatever is arising?(8:56 PM) Thusness: yes(8:57 PM) Thusness: not beyond the two poles of opposites(8:57 PM) Thusness: it is there is no separation.(8:57 PM) Thusness: that is when seeing, there is just the seen(8:57 PM) Thusness: there is no separation between the observed and the observer.(8:58 PM) Thusness: there is no observer(8:58 PM) Thusness: that is non-duality(8:58 PM) Thusness: only the hearing, no hearer(8:58 PM) Thusness: this is non-duality(8:58 PM) AEN: icic..(8:58 PM) Thusness: there is no separation between seer and seen(8:58 PM) Thusness: hearer and the sound heard(8:58 PM) Thusness: non-duality means no-self(8:59 PM) Thusness: not beyond the two poles of opposites(8:59 PM) AEN: icic..(9:00 PM) AEN: btw u watch adyashanti's video yet ?(9:00 PM) Thusness: nope(9:00 PM) Thusness: still downloading i think(9:00 PM) AEN: o icic..(9:00 PM) Thusness: what is it about?(9:01 PM) Thusness: by the way it is not only thoughts, sound, sight, breath...(9:01 PM) Thusness: all are so.(9:01 PM) AEN: hmm just wonder if tats description of non dual(9:01 PM) Thusness: must treat all as so.(9:01 PM) AEN: icic(9:01 PM) Thusness: i mean what ur teacher chen meant.(9:02 PM) Thusness: u must one day find it that it is so comfortable with no-self.(9:02 PM) Thusness: u like and enjoy no-self(9:02 PM) AEN: oic..(9:02 PM) Thusness: then u r there.(9:02 PM) AEN: icic(9:02 PM) Thusness: as if u never existed and everything is happening(9:02 PM) Thusness: every happening is perfectly complete(9:03 PM) Thusness: without intervention.(9:03 PM) AEN: oic..(9:09 PM) AEN: btw u had any near death experience or read about it b4?(9:09 PM) AEN: lol(9:09 PM) Thusness: read about it(9:09 PM) AEN: icic(9:11 PM) AEN: that day teacher chen described about his near death experience and how the scientists mistakenly called it the tunnel of time or something... he said something like at the time of death consciousness will depart from the body, at that time there is a huge bright light (i tink tats the clear light) but then as long as the mind movement moves, then at that moment the consciousness will sort of enter into a tunnel.. cant remember if tats wat he said, but tats the point the person becomes lost and probably undergoes rebirth(9:11 PM) Thusness: that day means what?(9:12 PM) AEN: oh the other day i was watching one of the vcd(9:13 PM) AEN: isit like the clear light is awareness but then there is mind movements then a person gets lost(9:15 PM) Thusness: Don't take Adyashanti's teaching too seriously. (Comment by Soh: but Adyashanti's writings in recent years come from mature insight into anatta and total exertion and are highly recommended. But in his earlier years he was more into I AM and one mind)(9:16 PM) AEN: oic haha how come(9:17 PM) Thusness: what he said is quite true but it is not the way as described by him.(9:18 PM) AEN: oic..(9:23 PM) AEN: btw last time u said u practise visualisation rite(9:23 PM) Thusness: yeah?(9:23 PM) AEN: oic wat visualisation u practise(9:24 PM) Thusness: it is different form of practice(9:24 PM) Thusness: u dunno(9:24 PM) Thusness: it is not buddhist practice(9:24 PM) AEN: lz told us tat day about how visualisation can make something really appear... and how at death tat time, if u visualise or something, amitabha can appear right in front of u(9:24 PM) AEN: huh(9:24 PM) AEN: but i dun practise visualisation so i dunno haha(9:24 PM) AEN: icic..Soh Wei YuAdmin(9:29 PM) Thusness: a person should be real serious in being no-one and be thoroughly clear of what is 'self'(9:29 PM) Thusness: and stop toking about nothing needs be done.(9:29 PM) AEN: oic..(9:30 PM) AEN: nothing needs to be done as in those neo advaita kind of statements? lol(9:30 PM) Thusness: yeah(9:30 PM) AEN: icic..(9:30 PM) Thusness: u can say treat as if u never existed and experience the happening...(9:31 PM) Thusness: u can tok about how conditioning fool us into believing that there is a 'self'(9:31 PM) Thusness: how the entire process comes about(9:31 PM) Thusness: u can tok about there is no one way towards it(9:31 PM) Thusness: in fact saying don't search is meaningless(9:32 PM) Thusness: that is just half the story(9:32 PM) Thusness: it should be search until u truly understand the meaning of non-searching(9:32 PM) Thusness: then it is complete(9:32 PM) Thusness: for to understand non-searching, searching is the condition(9:33 PM) AEN: icic..(9:34 PM) Thusness: what makes experience turns duality?(9:34 PM) AEN: karmic propensity?(9:34 PM) Thusness: self(9:34 PM) Thusness: I hear(9:34 PM) AEN: icic..(9:34 PM) Thusness: I see(9:34 PM) Thusness: that is separation(9:35 PM) Thusness: the 'I' separates(9:35 PM) AEN: oic(9:35 PM) Thusness: when seeing, there is just the seen(9:35 PM) Thusness: there is no separation(9:35 PM) Thusness: then one must know the emptiness nature of the one life(9:36 PM) AEN: icic..(9:36 PM) AEN: emptiness nature of one life(9:37 PM) AEN: as in realising non-locality?(9:37 PM) Thusness: it is best not to tok about non-locality(9:37 PM) Thusness: even non-duality will take one many lives to understand(9:38 PM) AEN: oic..(9:38 PM) AEN: but u said must know the emptiness nature of non duality also mah(9:38 PM) Thusness: be without a center in all experiences(9:38 PM) AEN: oic(9:39 PM) Thusness: when adyashanti said all is the One...(9:39 PM) Thusness: is sound the same as sight?(9:39 PM) AEN: tink so(9:39 PM) AEN: oh(9:40 PM) AEN: sound and sight(9:40 PM) AEN: hm(9:40 PM) Thusness: is a song the same as the sky?(9:40 PM) AEN: no..?(9:40 PM) Thusness: is the current moment of thought, the same as the next moment of thought?(9:40 PM) Thusness: is now ever the same at all?(9:40 PM) Thusness: where is the one?(9:40 PM) AEN: oic..(9:41 PM) Thusness: he is right in saying we have to stop and thinking is the one that is causing the confusion(9:41 PM) Thusness:(9:42 PM) AEN: icic..(9:42 PM) Thusness: confusion is the One.(9:42 PM) Thusness: being lost is the one.(9:42 PM) Thusness: yet I have no confusion at all(9:43 PM) Thusness: that the 5 aggregates are already non-dual(9:43 PM) Thusness: and 18 dhatus is also non dual(9:43 PM) Thusness: and the in between what is causing the confusion(9:43 PM) AEN: how come 'One' is confusion(9:43 PM) Thusness: what are the factors(9:43 PM) Thusness: the how of getting towards it(9:43 PM) AEN: oic(9:44 PM) Thusness: did u watch the video?(9:44 PM) AEN: ya(9:44 PM) Thusness: din u hear what he said?(9:45 PM) AEN: orh the 'one' as in the thinker etc(9:45 PM) Thusness: or(9:45 PM) Thusness: no(9:45 PM) Thusness: the One as the One reality.(9:45 PM) Thusness: our buddha nature(9:46 PM) AEN: oh icic(9:46 PM) AEN: orhh okok(9:46 PM) AEN: i get it(9:46 PM) AEN: ya remember(9:47 PM) Thusness: he must have deeper realisation of what is meant by 'self'.(9:47 PM) Thusness: when u stand up, is there intention?(9:47 PM) Thusness: when u brush ur teeth, is there intention?(9:48 PM) AEN: think so(9:48 PM) Thusness: yes(9:48 PM) Thusness: is there a problem?(9:48 PM) AEN: no(9:48 PM) Thusness: so why is there a problem when u search?(9:49 PM) AEN: oic..(9:49 PM) AEN: so u mean searching is like the condition for realisation(9:49 PM) Thusness: yes(9:49 PM) AEN: and its ok(9:49 PM) AEN: icic(9:49 PM) AEN: like the intention and the brushing teeth(9:49 PM) Thusness: when u search, u begin to understand what is non-seaching(9:49 PM) AEN: icic..(9:50 PM) Thusness: if u start by non-searching, u think that u r not searching but in reality, u are mistaken(9:50 PM) Thusness: that sort of non-seaching is not the sort of non-searching after realisation from searching(9:51 PM) AEN: oic..(9:51 PM) Thusness: so when a person say the problem is with searching, he only knows half the story.(9:51 PM) Thusness: he does not know the condition that leads to non-searching(9:51 PM) AEN: icic..(9:51 PM) AEN: wat sort of conditions lead to non searching(9:52 PM) Thusness: searching(9:52 PM) AEN: oic
Soh Wei YuAdmin(9:52 PM) Thusness: because i know then there is no confusion(9:53 PM) Thusness: i am perfectly fine and contented(9:53 PM) Thusness: i have no problem with sitting meditation and searching(9:53 PM) Thusness: and yet i have experienced non-dual(9:53 PM) Thusness: this is discernment(9:54 PM) Thusness: if u were to tell a person non-searching from start(9:54 PM) Thusness: he has no idea what u r toking about(9:54 PM) Thusness: and even when u tell him that, it is wrong(9:54 PM) Thusness: only when a person has searched sufficiently, he is equipped(9:55 PM) AEN: oic..(9:55 PM) Thusness: he knows because he knows what is searching(9:55 PM) Thusness: he knows what is effort(9:55 PM) Thusness: he knows the problems of efforting(9:55 PM) Thusness: he sees how it reacts(9:55 PM) Thusness: he 'sees' and the 'eyes' is open(9:56 PM) Thusness: the entire process are setting up all the necessary conditions for non-searching to arise(9:56 PM) Thusness: get it?(9:56 PM) AEN: icic..(9:56 PM) Thusness: without it, the non-searching is incomplete(9:56 PM) Thusness: and it is not the non-searching all sages are toking about.(9:56 PM) AEN: so u mean there has to be the experience of searching and discerning wats searching, then one can stop searching(9:57 PM) AEN: icic(9:57 PM) Thusness: yes(9:57 PM) AEN: then ppl like tony parsons they're encouraging non-searching? or have i misunderstood(9:57 PM) AEN: lol(9:57 PM) Thusness: have u seen anyone born and does not search and yet know the entire full meaning of non-searching?(9:57 PM) AEN: hmm no(9:57 PM) Thusness: then why do u doubt?(9:58 PM) Thusness: have u witness or have buddha taught or said anyone have done that b4?(9:58 PM) AEN: but actually wat sort of searching wld lead to non searching lol(9:58 PM) AEN: hmm no(9:59 PM) Thusness: now have u witness great sages after going through cycles of searching of what is truth comes to understand what is the true meaning of non-searching?(9:59 PM) AEN: ya(9:59 PM) Thusness: has anyone not gone through that process?(9:59 PM) AEN: dun tink so(10:00 PM) Thusness: so within ur knowledge including buddha, none has indeed succeeded in that(10:00 PM) AEN: icic.. yea(10:01 PM) Thusness: isn't that sufficient to tell u that what are searching is necessary?(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..(10:01 PM) AEN: searching as in practising the teachings?(10:01 PM) Thusness: so for one that focus and over-emphasize that non-searching is again fooled by his own thinking conditioning.(10:01 PM) Thusness: yet not knowing it.(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..(10:02 PM) Thusness: therefore propensities are subtle.(10:02 PM) Thusness: even the non-dual experiencers are not spared from it.(10:02 PM) AEN: icic..(10:05 PM) Thusness: so what is the diff?(10:05 PM) Thusness: between the non-searching at the beginning and the non-searching at the end?(10:05 PM) Thusness: what is the entire process about?(10:05 PM) AEN: one is no insight one is got insight(10:06 PM) Thusness: and how then can a person trying understand non-searching?(10:06 PM) Thusness: insight of what?(10:06 PM) AEN: searching?(10:06 PM) Thusness: why can't a person from start know what is non-searching?(10:07 PM) Thusness: why must he go through searching?(10:07 PM) AEN: bcos if he dun even know wat is searching, then he cant understand wat is effort and the problems of effort?(10:07 PM) Thusness: what is effort?(10:07 PM) AEN: intentions?(10:08 PM) Thusness: no good(10:08 PM) Thusness: u have not understood what i said(10:08 PM) AEN: oic(10:09 PM) Thusness: because u need to be no-self in order to understand non-searching(10:09 PM) Thusness: and the understanding must be very very thorough(10:09 PM) AEN: icic..(10:09 PM) Thusness: a person from start have absolutely no idea of what is no-self and what is self(10:10 PM) Thusness: get it(10:10 PM) Thusness: all actions are full of self.(10:10 PM) AEN: icic..(10:10 PM) AEN: yea(10:11 PM) Thusness: when a person sit and not doing anything(10:11 PM) Thusness: one is without center(10:11 PM) Thusness: the other has a center(10:12 PM) AEN: toni packer also said something, she said 'unless effortlessness prevails, you cannot help making an effort' and said its the way our constitution and conditioning world, when toking about effortlessness its either a concept or we're really in that state of no effort, just openness without 'me'(10:12 PM) AEN: oic(10:13 PM) AEN: *conditioning work(10:14 PM) AEN: one without center -- after insight, one with center -- before insight ?(10:14 PM) Thusness: u can say so.(10:14 PM) AEN: icic(10:15 PM) Thusness: but one has to go through a process of stability(10:15 PM) Thusness: and the key is in dropping(10:15 PM) Thusness: that is why second door is very important(10:15 PM) Thusness: and it is dropping the entirety of the self(10:15 PM) Thusness: as if u never existed(10:15 PM) Thusness: that is why 2nd door is very important after non-dual experienceSoh Wei YuAdmin(10:16 PM) Thusness: one must put in all effort in dropping(10:16 PM) Thusness: until as if the 'i' never existed(10:16 PM) AEN: icic..(10:18 PM) AEN: its like nothing stays at all, nothing exists, so everything is dropped?(10:18 PM) Thusness: that is the effect(10:19 PM) Thusness: it is absolutely no center(10:19 PM) Thusness: no 'I' at all.(10:19 PM) Thusness: u will find it very hard to understand now because there is no clarity of what exactly constitute the 'I'.(10:20 PM) Thusness: but for one that understand and realised what the 'I' is all about, then he is very comfortable.(10:20 PM) Thusness: then he will know that what u said is the effect(10:20 PM) Thusness: as if painting on pond like what i have posted(10:20 PM) AEN: icic..(10:21 PM) Thusness: that is i don't attempt or try not to hold on to anything(10:22 PM) Thusness: but i understand deeply and eliminate the whole notion of it and naturally i do not hold at all.(10:22 PM) Thusness: whole notion of 'I' i mean(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..(10:22 PM) Thusness: giving up entirely the center(10:23 PM) Thusness: no center at all(10:23 PM) Thusness: then there is no holding(10:23 PM) Thusness: as if I never existed(10:23 PM) AEN: icic..(10:23 PM) Thusness: like what jeff described(10:23 PM) AEN: oic(10:24 PM) Thusness: he must be so comfortable with no center(10:24 PM) Thusness: practice until it stabilizes(10:24 PM) Thusness: requires few yearsSoh Wei YuAdminTo Uṇṇābha the BrahmanBrahmaṇa Sutta (SN 51:15)NavigationSuttas/SN/51:15I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Ānanda was staying near Kosambī at Ghosita’s monastery. Then Uṇṇābha the brahman went to Ven. Ānanda and on arrival greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ānanda: “Master Ānanda, what is the aim of this holy life lived under Gotama the contemplative?”“Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire.”“Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?”“Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire.”“What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?”“Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence… concentration founded on intent… concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire.”“If that’s so, Master Ānanda, then it’s an endless path, and not one with an end, for it’s impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire.”“In that case, brahman, let me cross-question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think? Didn’t you first have desire, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the monastery,’ and then when you reached the monastery, wasn’t that particular desire allayed?”“Yes, sir.”“Didn’t you first have persistence, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the monastery,’ and then when you reached the monastery, wasn’t that particular persistence allayed?”“Yes, sir.”“Didn’t you first have the intent, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the monastery,’ and then when you reached the monastery, wasn’t that particular intent allayed?”“Yes, sir.”“Didn’t you first have (an act of) discrimination, thinking, ‘I’ll go to the monastery,’ and then when you reached the monastery, wasn’t that particular act of discrimination allayed?”“Yes, sir.”“So it is with an arahant whose effluents are ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. Whatever desire he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?”“You’re right, Master Ānanda. This is a path with an end, and not an endless one. Magnificent, Master Ānanda! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Ānanda—through many lines of reasoning—made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Saṅgha of monks. May Master Ānanda remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge, from this day forward, for life.”See also: MN 24; MN 109; AN 4:159; AN 10:58
Anisor MarieAuthorSoh Wei Yu also this seems to come back to teachers, whom all the greats say we need to give up attachments and clinging to things.Here in lies my dilemma, me wanting to go deeper and learn more, is this a form of attachment? When RD & Robert Adams etc say "eventually you have to give that up to" does that mean once (IF) I ever become fully realized? Won't it automatically be given up then?Soh Wei YuAdminAnisor Marie It is important to continue and persist with diligence and strive for total liberation. This sounds contradictory to what we hear about the 'effortlessness' of the natural state, but it is not contradictory. Without very deep wisdom there can be no real effortlessness, only contrived state of effortlessness, or an afflicted and delusional state pretending to be "effortlessness". Many teachers are unfortunately not clear about these points, and not clear about what are the conditions for true effortlessness to arise in one's practice.Which is why contemplating on the anatta stanzas are important. Because the anatta insight is a key or doorway into effortless instant presence. Even then it does not mean one starts to laze around, it is only the beginning of the path of endless actualization in practice-enlightenment.And there is no true letting go without the correct insights either.""...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. "~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another form of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."~ Thusness"Soh Wei YuAdminWilliam Lam: So, since I think a lot relies on the anatta experience, can you share with us a little bit more about the anatta experience?John Tan: the experience, there are two. One of them is… I separate experience from insight. So, why? Because you can have an experience, you can feel spacious, you can feel free, you can feel oceanic. That's an experience. There is no insight, means you can’t clearly see uh, there isn’t, from the beginning there is no self. Seeing through that, that is the insight. Experience means, you experience something, correct? So anatta means that, to me, that time when I realized… I started from presence, means I experienced presence directly. So presence there's a taste, means it is very clear, transparent, vivid, without concept, and all that kind of experience. That experience itself is actually non dual. But post that experience, you just become dualistic.William Lam: It's non conceptual.John Tan: It’s non conceptual. Yup. Okay. Presence is not conceptual experience, it has to be direct. And you just feel pure sense of existence. Means people ask you, before birth, who are you? You just authenticate the I, that is yourself, directly. So when you first authenticate that I, you are damn happy, of course. When young, that time, wah… I authenticate this I… so you thought that you’re enlightened, but then the journey continues. So this is the first time you taste something that is different. It is… It is before thoughts, there is no thoughts. Your mind is completely still. You feel still, you feel presence, and you know yourself. Before birth it is Me, after birth, it is also Me, 10,000 years it’s still this Me, 10,000 year before, it’s still this Me. So you authenticate that, your mind is just that and authenticate your own true being, so you don't doubt that. In later phase…Kenneth Bok: Presence is this I AM?John Tan: Presence is the same as I AM. Presence is the same as… of course, other people may disagree, but actually they're referring to the same thing. The same authentication, the same what... even in Zen is still the same.But in later phase, I conceive that as just the thought realm. Means, in the six, I always call the six entries and six exits, so there is the sound and there’s all these… During that time, you always say I’m not sound, I’m not the appearance, I AM the Self that is behind all these appearances, alright? So, sounds, sensations, all these come and go, your thoughts come and go, those are not me, correct? This is the ultimate Me. The Self is the ultimate Me. Correct?William Lam: So, is that nondual? The I AM stage. It’s non-conceptual, was it nondual?John Tan: It’s nonconceptual. Yes, it is nondual. Why is it nondual? At that moment, there is no duality at all, at that moment when you experience the Self, you cannot have duality, because you are authenticated directly as IT, as this pure sense of Being. So, it’s completely I, there’s nothing else, just I. There’s nothing else, just the Self. I think, many of you have experienced this, the I AM. So, you probably will go and visit all the Hinduism, sing song with them, meditate with them, sleep with them, correct? Those are the young days. I meditate with them, hours after hours, meditate, sit with them, eat with them, sing song with them, drum with them. Because this is what they preach, and you find these group of people, all talking about the same language.So this experience is not a normal experience, correct? I mean, within the probably 15 years of my life or 17 years of my life, my first... when I was 17, when you first experienced that, wah, what is that? So, it is something different, it is non conceptual, it is non dual, and all these. But it is very difficult to get back the experience. Very, very difficult, unless you're in when you're in meditation, because you reject the relative, the appearances. So, it is, although they may say no, no, it is always with me, because it's Self, correct? But you don't actually get back the authentication, just pure sense of existence, just me, because you reject the rest of that appearances, but you do not know during that time. Only after anatta, then you realize that this, when you when you hear sound without the background, that experience is exactly the same, the taste is exactly the same as the presence. The I AM Presence. So, only after anatta, when the background is gone, then you realize eh, this has the exact same taste as the I AM experience. When you are not hearing, you are just in the vivid appearances, the obvious appearances now, correct. That experience is also the I AM experience. When you are even now feeling your sensation without the sense of self directly. That experience is exactly the same as I AM taste. It is nondual. Then you realize, I call, actually, everything is Mind. Correct? Everything. So, so before that, there is an ultimate Self, a background, and you reject all those transient appearances. After that, that background is gone, you know? And then you are just all these appearances.Soh Wei YuAdminWilliam Lam: You are the appearance? You are the sound? You are the…John Tan: Yes. So, so, that is an experience. That is an experience. So after that, you realize something. What did you realise? You realise all along it is the what, that is obscuring you. So… in a person, for a person that is in I AM experience, the pure presence experience, they will always have a dream. They will say that I hope I can 24 by 7 always in that state, correct? So when I was young, 17. But then after 10 years you are still thinking. Then after 20 years, you say how come I need to always meditate? You always find time to meditate, maybe I don't study also meditate, you give me a cave last time I will just meditate inside.So, the the thing that you always dream that you can one day be pure consciousness, just as pure consciousness, live as pure consciousness, but you never get it. And even if you meditate, occasionally probably you can have that oceanic experience. Only when you after anatta, when that self behind is gone, you are not 24 by 7, maybe most of your day, waking state, not so much of 24 by 7, you dream that time still very karmic depending on what you engage, doing business, all these. (John mimics dreaming) How come ah, the business…So, so, in normal waking state, you are effortless. Probably that is the, during I AM phase, what you think you are going to achieve, you achieve after the insight of anatta. So you become clear, you are probably in the right path. But there are further insights you have to go through. When you try to penetrate the… one of them is, I feel that I become very physical. I am just narrating, going through my experience. Maybe that time… because you experience the relative, the appearances directly. So everything becomes very physical. So that is how you come to understand the meaning, how concepts actually affect you. Then what exactly is physical? How does the idea of physical come about, correct? That time I still do not know about emptiness, and all these kind of things, to me it is not so important.So, I start going into what exactly is physical, what exactly is being physical? Sensation. But why is sensation known as physical, and what is being physical? How did I get the idea of being physical? So, I began to enquire into this thing. That, eh, actually on top of that, there is still further things to deconstruct, that is the meaning… that, just like self, I’m attached to the meaning of self, and you create a construct, it becomes a reification. Same thing, physicality also. So, you deconstruct the concepts surrounding physicality. Correct? So, when you deconstruct that, then I began to realize that all along, we try to understand, even after the experience of let’s say, anatta and all these… when we analyze, and when we think and try to understand something, we are using existing scientific concepts, logic, common day to day logic and all these to understand something. And it is always excluding consciousness. Even if you experience, you can lead a spiritual path you know, but when you think and analyze something, somehow you always exclude consciousness from the equation of understanding something. Your concept is always very materialistic. We always exclude consciousness from the whole equation.
Soh Wei YuAdmin"me wanting to go deeper and learn more, is this a form of attachment"No it is not, or it need not be. There must be a balance (see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../jean-luc-achard-on... )The correct books can provide very good pointers in practice and also help one attain deeper insight which are crucial for liberation.Session Start: 9 April, 2011Thusness: then to have more knowledgeSoh: I see.. Like last time lzls said not to read books at one pt rightThusness: yeahSoh: She said last time master would take out a lot of books and start writing essays and then got stopped by zen master dong chuSoh: Who said something like which buddha ever attained buddhahood through reading and writingSoh: something like thatThusness: yeahThusness: but it dependsThusness: after anatta it is okieSoh: OicThusness: before that, need a good teacherSoh: Ic..Thusness: because after anatta, one is able to see what is meant by direct, gapless and pureThusness: and he is on his own to mature this experienceThusness: until the next phase comesThusness: all practitioners must experience for himself and not readThusness: like dogen, what expressed is clear and directThusness: ted expresses the total exertionThusness: and how come it sounds like maha?Thusness: when reading the vietman zen master thich naht hanh, how do u know what he express is correct?Thusness: i have not read anything...in fact very lilThusness: only one to two stanzaThusness: all else is direct experiencesThusness: bought many books but din read...ahha...Contemplating the two stanzas of anatta and two nondual contemplations can lead to the breakthrough insight of anatta.More recently, John Tan has been emphasizing how even after anatta, one should study and learn Madhyamika teachings/MMK for deepening one's wisdom. John Tan, "mmk exposes all the very subtle and hidden cognitives obscurations that we are unable even post anatta insight. So if one is interested in bringing anatta insight to maturity and perfection, mmk is needed."Jean-Luc Achard on the Role and Importance of Study and Conceptual Understanding in one’s Relationship with the Dzogchen TeachingsAWAKENINGTOREALITY.COMJean-Luc Achard on the Role and Importance of Study and Conceptual Understanding in one’s Relationship with the Dzogchen TeachingsSoh Wei YuAdminIn addition to Walpola Rahula's book which is clear about anatta and dependent origination, another good book for beginner is Steve Hagen's Buddhism Plain and Simple https://www.amazon.com/.../dp/0804851182/ref=dp_ob_title_bkThese two books can help guide the way towards anatta and are not too difficult to read even for those totally new to Buddhism.Likewise Angelo's book is also very good and you should read it
James Wolanyk thank you. This resonates and makes a lot of sense to me.
I have heard teachers say that I need to even give up the need and desire for awakening.
Ram Dass says that "enlightment is the egos ultimate disappointment." But I only now understand what that means, in that it dissolves the ego or merges it into awareness.
I used to interpret this as to stop seeking, bc he says "eventually you have to give that up to."
It seems that writing a lot of this out helps me make sense of things. As well as everyone's feedback.
Should I stop seeking the answers? Some teachers say to stop and others say to keep seeking for deeper awakening and eventual full realization.