Posts
- Reply
- Remove Preview
- 11h
- Edited
- Reply
- 10h
- Reply
- Remove Preview
- 11h
- Reply
- 11h
- Reply
- 11h
- Reply
- Remove Preview
- 11h
- Reply
- 9h
- Reply
- 7h
- Reply
- 1h
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
It's
very important after the I AM realization not to strengthen the
illusion of a background but to penetrate deeply into anatta and
dissolve that illusion of a background subject or witnessing.
After
that, clear light sleep and dream takes a very different form than
maintaining witnessing background into sleep. The latter will cause
insomnia and other problems and energy imbalances. And it will not
liberate.
Therefore
one should not look into any sleep practices during the I AM phase, and
even after anatta one can just let wisdom enter sleep naturally. But
especially in the I AM phase, it will be very dangerous and will
strengthen one's karmic propensities and cause other energy imbalances
instead of progress.
Excerpts from the AtR guide: https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg?
I
have seen so many famous masters and practitioners who have completely
mistaken that remaining conscious into deep sleep is a form of
achievement. Many masters in various traditions, such as Advaita,
Tibetan, Zen, Thai Forest and so on may see being conscious in sleep as
an ultimate achievement, the prized ‘Turiya’ (fourth state) transcending
and underlying the transient states of waking, dreaming and sleep. In
actuality, not being able to fall asleep completely and being always
conscious even when sleeping (what Ramana calls sleepless sleep, wakeful
sleep) is an energy imbalance, and it is harmful to one’s health. As
John Tan warned, “You realize everyone that claims this ended up having
serious health issues.’”, “just don't mistaken all these energy
imbalances as achievement. Look at all these issues directly and know
how to deal with it.”
In
2007, John Tan translated a paragraph from English to Chinese. It was a
passage he wrote about I AMness as the changeless ground of being,
ending it with an additional comment, “Due to the strong karmic
propensities to grasp at a substance of awareness, the practitioner may
have difficulties falling asleep, and in serious cases may obtain
insomnia, being unable to fall asleep for many years.” He wrote that and
told me to send it along with the Thusness (John Tan) Stages of
Enlightenment to a dharma teacher as that dharma teacher was suffering
from insomnia due to energy imbalance after I AMness. To truly solve
this issue, one must be able to relinquish one’s grasping at Awareness
(reified as a Self) and give rise to John Tan Stage 5 insight of anatta.
“As long as she knows where she is and aim for stage 5.5, she will be able to cure her sleeping problem. :)” - John Tan, 2007
“(11:46 PM) Thusness: X has not experienced non dual. that is why there is a sleeping problem. 
and she must take it as a misunderstanding of consciousness. this
latent sleeping problem can only be solved by stage 5 and 6. this also
means that she has not experienced wu wei fa also. contrary to what she
wrote. but not to talk about stage. She misunderstood it as I AMness
and 4th stage. when [one is] at [stage] 5.5, her problem will be
solved. her yuan [conditions] must be there. 
anyway not to belittle her.
just that there is a problem of sleeplessness. it is good to tell her
when the yuan is there. and the lacking [point] in the teaching must be
patched. :)” - John Tan, 2007
and she must take it as a misunderstanding of consciousness. this
latent sleeping problem can only be solved by stage 5 and 6. this also
means that she has not experienced wu wei fa also. contrary to what she
wrote. but not to talk about stage. She misunderstood it as I AMness
and 4th stage. when [one is] at [stage] 5.5, her problem will be
solved. her yuan [conditions] must be there. anyway not to belittle her.
just that there is a problem of sleeplessness. it is good to tell her
when the yuan is there. and the lacking [point] in the teaching must be
patched. :)” - John Tan, 2007John
Tan speaks from experience because the insomnia he experienced for over
a decade after energy imbalance induced after I AMness was only
resolved after anatta. Realization of anatta was crucial to that
resolution, hence the comment ‘when [one is] at [stage] 5.5, her problem
will be solved’.
“(10:09
PM) John: yes it is still if we want to call it, the 'Self' but when
emptiness comes into picture...Presence takes another role... look at
buddhism closely...there is no need for emptiness and non-inherent
existence if it is merely 'Self'. it is all about the clarity of our
true nature. if we call our true nature the true 'Self', it is
alright...but what is the relationship of emptiness? it is more like
God. that does not require conditions, just the source will do.
"I AMness" lead to that sort of presence....anatta even worse...greater
clarity. kundalini awakening the serpent also will lead to this cosmic
consciousness experience, but the emptiness nature isn't seen.
"I AMness" lead to that sort of presence....anatta even worse...greater
clarity. kundalini awakening the serpent also will lead to this cosmic
consciousness experience, but the emptiness nature isn't seen.(10:14 PM) AEN: kundalini awakening how come also can
(10:14 PM) AEN: isnt it some kind of chakra thing?
(10:14 PM) John: because of the release of energy that cause a sudden drop out of all barriers
(10:14 PM) AEN: btw j krishnamurti attain enlightenment through kundalini i tink.. he mention
(10:15
PM) John: yes...every chakra is a release and melting away, and the
release till a free and pure sense of energetic sense of awareness.
union with cosmic consciousness, so called. the presence can be so
intense that you don't know how to deal with it. it penetrate to the sleeping phase” – Conversation with John Tan, 2006
it penetrate to the sleeping phase” – Conversation with John Tan, 2006"To
find one that can completely surrender and totally be is extremely
rare. Not even one in millions. Yet in deep sleep, all has to let go.
How can one be denied such a precious state of beingness.
For
a person that has experienced no-self (non-duality), deep sleep is even
more important. It is the completion of a full cycle of non-duality and
natural beingness.
But
this may not be the case for one that clings to the "Eternal
Witnessing". There is a very subtle holding in them for maintaining this
witnessing subconsciously thereby denying them from naturally going
into deep sleep. If it reaches a point that presents itself as a
problem, it is a signal to the practitioner that it is time to let go
and dissolve the holding of the Witness, the center. It will be tough to
simply try just "let go" of the center and if this is the case, an
insight into our "emptiness nature" may help.
Only
after going through a full cycle of natural non-duality and beingness
in all three states (waking, dreaming and deep sleep) will a
practitioner sleep be shortened. I called this the second cycle of
non-duality." - John Tan, 2007
“There
is no need to maintain anything during deep sleep. It is non-dual by
itself. More pure than anything. :)” - John Tan, 2007
"The
deep dreamless sleep is a very precious state of being, a natural
samadhi of its own, a measure of accomplishment in the first complete
cycle of non-dual. If conditions are understood along with our pristine
nature, all 3 states flow as a single whole." - John Tan, 2007
"JonLS:
Because we're too busy identifying with thoughts and feelings in the mind and body.
________________________________________
John Tan：
And
also busy identifying with the "I Am". The worry has now come to it.
Dissolve and passaway, fade out of existence! So be it!
quote:
________________________________________
Why can't we fully appreciate our perfection?
________________________________________
John Tan：
Fade away and appreciate "no where". Sleep well!" - Jan 2007
APP.BOX.COM
Box
Roger Thisdell
Author
Soh Wei Yu
I agree. I see this technique as a trick and not an end goal
achievement. Ultimately consciousness is empty too. Cessation and
Nirodha Samapatti can be missed by those who fixate on awareness being a
constant underlying ground.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
• Aditya Prasad
If
it makes you feel any better, I've been stuck in "I AM" for over three
decades . After reading (parts of) AtR, I recognized another major trap
I fell into: trying to continually reconfirm awareness. It's deeply
habitual now, and triggers itself when I'm trying to fall asleep,
preventing me from getting restful sleep. Really grateful for this
group, because even though it's taking a long time to work through this
stuff, I don't know of any other resource that explains it.
3 · 11h
• ·
Tony Taylor
Author
Aditya Prasad Yea I’m 44 so 3 decades for me as well
• · 10h
• Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Aditya
Prasad Due to lack of insight into the nature of awareness, the mind
always has the sense that awareness is behind, an unexamined belief that
"awareness is not thought, is not sleep, is not this and that
experience" and that "awareness is what is BEHIND them", so it always
attempts to jump out of that moment of experience to find this 'familiar
background' which is a mind made illusion. It is really just a line, a
definition, a mind made map that attempts to locate awareness as 'not
that but this', 'not there but here', etc.
When
insight into nature of awareness arise, then one is able to overcome
the tendency of locating awareness anywhere besides manifestation. Then
you will love to just sleep when you sleep, in hearing just sound, in
sleeping just sleep, because that's always what's already the case --
never a seer or a seeing besides.
After
that 'confirmation' is always auto confirmation by the ten thousand
things and auto release (self liberation) upon arising, in fact non
arising in its arising. There is absolutely no effort to reconfirm
anything necessary what has no who, no where, no when, non local but
ever brilliant and spontaneous, without center, division, location or
boundaries, all vivid manifestations as spontaneous presence.
Joel Agee, 2013:
Here
are two sentences from one of the oldest Dzogchen texts, The
All-Creating Monarch (Kunjed Gyalpo) quoted in Longchenpa's Precious
Treasury of the Way of Abiding (Richard Barron's translation):
“Seek the location of the heart essence through phenomena that derive from it
and come to appreciate it through the skillful means of not conceptualizing in any way whatsoever.
Since the heart essence occurs naturally, dharmakaya is not elsewhere.”
Coming across these lines had a vividly awakening effect on me.
Like · · Unfollow Post · September 2, 2012 at 1:29pm
Dannon Flynn, Steven Monaco, Neony Karby and 6 others like this.
Joel
Agee Simple but profound and ongoing: a deconstruction of an
unconscious habit of locating awareness anywhere else than in the
moment-to-moment transient phenomena. Whoosh! No observer, no witness.
No location!
David Vardy No location but 'here' in the heart....
September 2, 2012 at 1:46pm via mobile · Like · 2
Chris Collins You're finding a deepening clarity in transcient phenomena ? Can you explain any more ?
September 2, 2012 at 1:48pm via mobile · Like
Joel Agee David: Yes, definitely. And your putting "here" in quotes feels accurate, because that too is unfindable.
September 2, 2012 at 1:50pm · Like · 2
Joel
Agee Chris, I'm not sure I can explain exactly. There's a frequent and
delightful experience of being "confirmed" by sounds and sights,
especially sounds. Greater appreciation of what shows up from moment to
moment, a kind of energy of being available for anything. More
spontaneous ease in action and speech and thought. But in a way this is
all secondary. The recognition of awareness is unobstructed. Sometimes
it seems to be obscured by thoughts and feelings, and then it's obvious
that those too are the clarity and the emptiness. RIght now there's joy
in seeing and saying this.
Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating
Joel Agee: Appearances are Self-Illuminating
· 21m
• · • Soh Wei Yu
Admin
So
during my I AM phase I too experience that insomnia thing though to a
much lesser degree than John Tan and many others, I remember this
constant witnessing into sleep and the tendency to snap out of thoughts
back into a constant background and this often wakes me up and disrupts
my sleep (both when falling asleep and when asleep). But I will just
drop all that and just sleep as much as I can and continue to progress
in the 4 aspects and nondual contemplations and bahiya sutta.
· 12m
• Soh Wei Yu
Admin
John
Tan wrote in May 2007, "Many love Presence, the background, the reality
behind all appearances. If we can dedicate the same love towards
appearances and to thoughts, I think that will do; for they are one and
the same. Forget about self or no-self if it is confusing. My 2 cents. "
The same goes for sleep too, I might add.
He also said back then,
"A
person in utter sincerity will realize that whenever he attempts to
step out of Isness (although he can't), there is complete confusion. In
truth, he cannot know anything in reality.
If we haven’t had enough confusion and fear, Isness will not be fully appreciated.
“I
am not thoughts, I am not feelings, I am not forms, I am not all these,
I am the Ultimate Eternal Witness.” is the ultimate identification.
The
transients that we shunt away are the very Presence we are seeking; it
is a matter of living in Beingness or living in constant identification.
Beingness flows and identification stays. Identification is any attempt
to return to Oneness without knowing its nature is already non-dual.
“I AM” is not knowing. I AM is Being. Being thoughts, Being feelings, Being Forms…There is no separate I from start.
Either there is no you or you are all."
"When
we clung too deeply to the luminous presence, to that ‘pure sense of
existence’, we fail to see the emptiness nature of that presence.
Phenomena dances in and out of existence, arises and subsides according
to conditions. When a practitioner does not ‘posit’ an ‘I’ and ‘see’
that there is really no one behind, then popping in and out of existence
is not seen as any thing unusual, still the perfect expression of our
pristine nature that is empty. Allow Presence to be, no who, no when and
no where."- Jan 2007
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Awakening to Reality
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
“Yes Longchen,
Very
well said. There never was a gap, it can't be. It is one whole flow and
nothing else. When there is one, there is two. When the one subsides,
nothing isn't the one Reality.
Clear
transparency of the One Reality also has its problem. An illumination
into the non-duality without certain pre-requisite can cause problems.
There is always habitual propensities that will again make this
experience an object of attachment. It can cause a person to go without
sleep as the body is incapable of dealing with this newfound experience.
Many have mistaken this to be a heightening of awareness and took it as
a natural progression. This is not true. Whenever this happens, know
that it is due to attachment. Learn how to let go of everything until a
tranquil calmness arise, it has got to do with our thought patterns,
there must come this willingness to let go of our body completely, then
our thoughts and the experience of presence… completely letting go from
moment to moment… the senses and thoughts can be shut by this art of
letting go and non-attachment. Total letting go and vivid Presence must
fuse into one.
Practice
during the waking state till there is no single trace of doubt that
there is absolutely no one there, no inner and no outer, just the
incredible realness and vividness of the manifestation. The experience
of non-dual in the waking state. Witnessing dreams and there is no
witness, just dreams is different. Dealing with the more subtle states
and pre-conscious propensities require one to master this art of
non-attachment, non-action. There is no conscious way of dealing with
the more subtle states, just stabilized the experience and allow the
momentum to carry us naturally into the dream and deep sleep. Sleep
well. :)” - John Tan, 2006
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Too many good quotes, I'll just paste one more and others can read more in the AtR guide itself:
“John:
That is not the way… because he cannot cope with his experience of
consciousness, unable to let go of that experience that created this
illusion… it is no good for his health and X too...
Soh: Oh, I see. But X says she is very awake, lol
John:
Yeah.... I am too... but she must dare to die. totally subsides.
nothing at all. it is a problem. she must not misunderstand. The
Presence experience requires one to know how to feel the great death
then one can understand emptiness. and the subsiding of presence in deep
sleep is important because it revitalizes. it is not that nothing is
known. it is just it is another form of manifestation. when one say that
someone drinks in new york, the one in Singapore get drunk. it is non
local… not letting one completely dissolved, one will not experience
that. and the understanding is always centered. I told you that I have
gone through 10 years of insomnia right?
Soh: yea, you said it’s due to some Qi practise? that gone wrong. lol
John:
I do not treat that as a stage, I treat that as a problem. I am totally
clear throughout, extremely clear. when one enters into meditative
stage of presence in dream state. it is not lucid dreaming. it is
presence and merging into symbols. like experiencing the sky as you, all
those symbols are you. when you meditate for long hours and is able to
rest our mind at night, though even sitting. there will come a time that
all sorts of symbols appear. children playing. birds flying in the sky.
you see faces so clear yet you are aware and sometimes you wonder
whether are your eyes open or closed. you are awaring the dreams taking
place. but still the same, there is no one awaring but the presence of
the dreams. it is not like those described (Soh: descriptions of either
lucid dreaming or Witnessing presence in sleep). totally out. see
oceans....like flying over the oceans....images taking places. yet there
is awareness.... this is due to the manifestation of conditions. but it
is non physical but purely symbolics. there is not much differences
though. then the symbols will come to an end. the dreams will, there is
no story line, just images after images. Random… but quite clear. but it
will come to an end.... then all images subsides… completely nothing
Soh: I see. then you wake up ?
John:
nope… dreamless. then dunno how long....those symbols arises again.
your mind is completely clear. it is difficult to tell you.
one can be so attached to these stages that it is so difficult to get
out. the only medicine is no-self and emptiness. I think only emptiness
can save. Lol. that is completely dissolve even the Presence. Then the
Presence does not have to localize.
one can be so attached to these stages that it is so difficult to get
out. the only medicine is no-self and emptiness. I think only emptiness
can save. Lol. that is completely dissolve even the Presence. Then the
Presence does not have to localize.Soh: emptiness will dissolve Presence?
John:
and we will progress. you see, the awareness in all these stages is
still a form of centricity. it is a subtle background. awareness is
difficult to understand.
in fact we can't understand. that is the problem. we can only
experience. but most people want to make sense out of this experience
therefore they conceptualized. and even with the experience, they subtly
fall back to this very fine concept and identify with it instead of
just letting the conditions unfold, just it. the unfolding is already
it. the entire body become so focused and concentrated… it uses up so
much energy that the body and brain already [becomes] numb… one does not
realise it. do you know what every practices must have the melting
effect?
in fact we can't understand. that is the problem. we can only
experience. but most people want to make sense out of this experience
therefore they conceptualized. and even with the experience, they subtly
fall back to this very fine concept and identify with it instead of
just letting the conditions unfold, just it. the unfolding is already
it. the entire body become so focused and concentrated… it uses up so
much energy that the body and brain already [becomes] numb… one does not
realise it. do you know what every practices must have the melting
effect?Soh: you mean releasing bonds? wat you mean melting
John:
when you focus chakra… when you visualize, these sort of practices must
have the melting effect to dissolve into complete nothings… letting
everything unfold… you must later learn how to engage yourself into
activities and practice from there. completely engaged. it is especially
important after the experience of anatta. after the practice of
mindfulness, engage into activities. just know the DO (dependent
origination) and emptiness, hold on to nothing. there is no need to hold
on to presence
Soh: but isn’t it possible to maintain 'presence' in every moment in life ?
John:
if you think there is a need, use no-self and emptiness, then the
Presence will speak in its stillness. it is possible. that is due to
wisdom. the loosening of the bond. not as a result of effort. means when
your attachment loosen, your capacity to 'see' is naturally there. the
'seeing' is the experiencing is the presence” - 2006 Conversation with
John Tan
“It
is not necessary to maintain witnessing at all. A wrong understanding.
After non-dual and with right understanding, only manifestation with
right condition is necessary. It's holding on to 'witnessing' that is
denying the further experience of our pristine nature. :)” - John Tan,
2007
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
“He
[XYZ Rinpoche] focused more on awareness as background. Without
realizing the nature of mind and phenomena, karma continues to be
generated.
When
there is a background, one can't liberate actually but generates subtle
karma IMO. Only through realizing the nature of mind and phenomena one
can self liberates (karma).” – John Tan, 2018
“There is thinking, no thinker
There is hearing, no hearer
There is seeing, no seer
In thinking, just thoughts
In hearing, just sounds
In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors.”
.....
Depending
on the conditions of an individual, it may not be obvious that it is
“always thought watching thought rather than a watcher watching
thought.” or "the watcher is that thought." Because this is the key
insight and a step that cannot afford to be wrong along the path of
liberation, I cannot help but with some disrespectful tone say,
For those masters that taught,
“Let thoughts arise and subside,
See the background mirror as perfect and be unaffected.”
With all due respect, they have just “blah” something nice but deluded.
Rather,
See that there is no one behind thoughts.
First, one thought then another thought.
With deepening insight it will later be revealed,
Always just this, One Thought!
Non-arising, luminous yet empty!
- John Tan, 2009, the two stanzas of anatta in On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
Tyler Jones
Soh Wei Yu
if one keeps a bare mindfulness as one falls asleep but is not
reconfirming the I AM do you think it would cause issues? The
instructions I've received from various Buddhist and Daoist lineages are
to keep mindfulness, not stay in the I AM per se like in Hinduism.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
If it is not causing issues then ok.. just be careful.
Most
impt is to give rise to insight.. anatta most impt followed by
emptiness after that. Then presence is really spontaneous, without
effort and clinging and contrivance.
