[8:01 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Seems like he enjoys the one hand clapping koan. There is no mirror.

Khamtrul Rinpoche on the realization of anatta in the Mahamudra text (recommended reading! with lots of pointers for contemplation too):

"At that point, is the observer—awareness—other than the
observed—stillness and movement—or is it actually that stillness and
movement itself? By investigating with the gaze of your own awareness,
you come to understand that that which is investigating itself is also
no other than stillness and movement. Once this happens you will
experience lucid emptiness as the naturally luminous self-knowing
awareness. Ultimately, whether we say nature and radiance, undesirable
and antidote, observer and observed, mindfulness and thoughts, stillness
and movement, etc., you should know that the terms of each pair are no
different from one another; by receiving the blessing of the guru,
properly ascertain that they are inseparable. Ultimately, to arrive at
the expanse free of observer and observed is the realization
of the true meaning and the culmination of all analyses. This is called
“the view transcending concepts,” which is free of conceptualization,
or “the vajra mind view.”

Khamtrul Rinpoche III. The Royal Seal of Mahamudra: Volume One: A
Guidebook for the Realization of Coemergence: 1 (p. 242). Shambhala.


John Tan commented on the above:

[9:14 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: This is not just mere experience.

[3:03 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Albert Hong
Albert Hong I'm not sure if OP got his answer yet. Probably, but I can add another opinion to the mix. To get access to AMness or Beingness one has to distinguish the vital energy from the body. Then the essence of that vital energy, which is the life force or your sense of being alive is your BeingNess.

So you can think of it this way. You have a body. You also breath air or prana. When the air accumulates within you, due to spiritual practice. Which is basically coarse body identification becoming more subtle. Then from that arises the sense of Being. It is the most subtle substance that is arisen from your body, due to you eating food.

I'm not sure what your "practice" is. But if you do anything body based or breath based then naturally you will understand what is meant by inner vitality. An inner sense of aliveness or well being or just having more energy due to spiritual practice.

If you give you attention to that life energy then it will naturally become more subtle until your whole sense of a body is just bliss and knowingness.

then Amness becomes the very most subtle substance of everything. but it all begins with coarse to subtle to AMness.
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    Albert Hong
    Albert Hong A large part of isolating the sense of YOU ARE is due to interacting with being abiding in such state. Then it becomes clear what that taste or flavor is. Then it becomes a process of distinguishing that from coarse body identification, which is nothing but muscular tensions. Those tensions then when recognized as the YOU ARE become bliss, become nothing but YOU ARE.

    So fundamentally the quickest way to recognize that is to get into the physical presence of a teacher. Then the work is isolating it apart from all the possible experiences and in particular the different bodies from coarse to subtle. Then reintergrating that sense into all the bodies again.

    The emphasis is also on somatic practices. You don't just live with your thinking mind. You live as a body. There are modalities of knowing that mostly are not spoken in spirituality due to the heavy emphasis on intellectualism.

    Devotion for instance is a great access point to realize AMness. When you truly love something without boundaries, without desire then the aliveness or soul essence of what you love shines forth.

    So if Who am I doesn't work just note that there are many, many ways.
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[3:58 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: This is very good
[4:00 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: In fact this is what I want to tell u but it can be make more insightful and direct.
[4:16 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. think i will put into stage 1 chapter in atr guide haha
[4:19 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: No I m referring to other aspects.  U r looking at just AMness.
[4:20 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: But Albert put it quite well for both, total exertion as well as this comment.
[4:24 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Did u get what Albert is trying to say?
[4:43 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: The OP is abt Frank?
[5:08 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Its about discovering the taste of amness then reintegrating that taste into somatic.. like after anatta
[5:08 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Someone asking about self enquiry
[5:11 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Yes.
[5:24 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: Did I tell u that at certain phase u have to switch to somatic and energy practice and that is the turn point where intellectual is replaced by sensing energy and somatic-body presence.
[6:03 PM, 6/20/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[6:04 PM, 6/20/2020] John Tan: It is the time when I told u to practice yoga.

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  Albert Hong For something like total exertion, contemplation really helps. You can just intellectually contemplate interdependence and action. Like what is doing really? We are always doing. Everything is total flux. You hold that conceptually and then tune into and investigate. Then you can begin to consider the conditions that go into that action. With that effort and intention and holding of a view, you can easily skirt into non-conceptual understanding.
  
  Especially starting with a very repetitive task like washing dishes. The whole interdependent world is completely showcased in that activity. Hand to sponge to soap to water to dish to wiping to cleaning. All of it linked in it's immediacy. that keeps extending and extending until you see how your father is there, your mother, your friends, the sink, the water, etc. everything is there in the whole activity.
  
  So you can make insane efforts, you can do A LOT and with intensity. And that is the interdependent universe right there.
  
  You have to think about these things. You have to apply it to your life. To your actions. The funny thing is that it's actually how things are. The insight is just realizing that is already the case. The conceptual framework just mirrors and is a door to the as it is.

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  Albert Hong Karma is interesting to consider as well. How our personal actions reflect infinitely. And how our vision of the world at the moment is completely the result of all casual conditions prior.
  
  For myself it is also understanding Ancestral karma that comes with the specific meat bag we carry around. Those energies and momentums are at play.
  
  But we can also understand the same concept from lineage. We are all carriers of lineage. And we are the pinnacle of the lineage.
  
  We also hold the lineage of being human. Carrying the whole momentum of being human, the whole karmic package with its virtue and non virtue.
  
  Each moment a choice, an act. Either we choose virtue or non virtue. And that moments choice creating the vector for the next moment.
  
  Mind is continuous. to moments, to lifetimes, infinitely.
  
  So contemplation of things like this makes ordinary, insignificant things very important and very extraordinary. Every action counts and reflects infinitely.
  
  Your liberation is paramount for it sows the seeds and potentiality for others. It makes it easier for others. What each and everyone one of us does. For better or worse is reflective forever.
  
  Eh and to negate everything I just wrote.
  
  It's probably better to just sit in Zazen.

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[2:13 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Actually my experience is always vibrant presencing.. just a matter of degree.. like getting lost in thought also affects, not enough shamatha. There are probably some other obscurations but i dont understand yet
[2:13 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Yes
[2:13 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: No mind is a direct insight for me on anatta
[2:13 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: So what exactly is obscuring is what I m asking u...
[2:13 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is no mind and all is mind simultaneously
[2:13 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Now if I asked u do u know what DO is all abt?
[2:15 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: If I say A is causally connect to B what is it really talking about? And when I ask A is empty and B is empty and so is the causal connection between them. What does it mean?
[2:15 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Saying they r empty doesn't mean anything at all. What is the insight and wisdom from deconstructing them.
[2:16 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Further I have been asking u what is the purpose of deconstruction?
[2:16 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: And y is view important is deconstruction is everything.
[2:16 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Therefore when u answer andre, ur points aren't clear.
[2:17 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Having insight of anatta is one thing, having insight of DO is another.
[2:18 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Having deconstruction doesn't mean DO. Advaita practitioner deconstruct self, but y they did not c DO? That is the question.
[2:19 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Now, in Tibetan practice, conceptualization is as if the root of all evils but is it? U have to have ur own insights and experiences to authenticate the truth of it.
[2:21 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Y is view important when u need deconstruction? So understand the purpose of deconstruction and understand the view when u have direct insight of anatta to help u.
[2:28 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Advaita subsume everything into one. So their deconstruction leads to collapsing into undifferentiated oneness which has the characteristics of permanence and Self

Whereas buddhism deconstructs Self and sees self and all phenomena like chariot.. so it collapses oneness into multiplicity and then the nature of multiplicity is revealed to be dependent origination and non arising, neither one or many, etc
[2:30 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Subsuming into one, y?
[2:31 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: If deconstruction frees one from conceptualizing, how is it that there's subsuming?
[2:40 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Because after I AM the I AM appears like ultimate reality. So it does not occur to them that the view of subjectivity can be seen through via insight
[2:41 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: They do not even see subjectivity as a view
[2:41 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: To then its the absolute
[2:41 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Them*
[2:43 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Therefore this not seeing is the root of ignorance. So don't see mind or not mind doesn't imply insight.
[2:43 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[2:44 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: But for me all observable phenomena are awareness and there is no awareness besides observable phenomena, this is from direct insight
[2:48 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: When one over emphasizes non conceptualization as the ultimate goal, he is letting karmic blind spots sway his understanding.
[2:48 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
[2:52 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: So as I have said many times, despite having experiences turned effortlessly non-dual and non conceptual post anatta, I m not into no view. Rather I m into direct authentication of right view.
[2:54 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[2:58 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: This however is not promoting conceptualization over non- conceptual experience. They support each other.
[3:00 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Why do I ask u what is the purpose of deconstruction? U need to know what exactly does deconstruction achieve. U have deconstructed mind, body and divisions...so what is this deconstruction about and what is the purpose?
[3:02 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Experience presence without boundary and artificial separation or fragmentation
[3:08 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Yes. To access directly presence without intermediary. Having direct access does not mean wisdom and insight will arise. But when u r able to to access the state of non-dual presence, u r able to authenticate the view so that u insight may arise.
[3:09 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
[3:12 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: So the view, the experience a and the realization.
[3:17 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Now what is dependent origination abt? Is it relation between 2 things? If not what is it pointing at?
[3:26 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: It is pointing to the nature of this presencing appearance.. because we do not comprehend the nature of appearance we come up with the idea that things come into existence and abides somewhere for a moment or a while... but when we look into appearance, appearance is none other than the various conditions exerting, like for example the image on screen is dependent on eye, electricity, etc.. you can’t say it has been created and is locatable somewhere. it is none other than a seamless exertion just like chariot is none other than the parts dependencies functions

It is not relation between two things because the depending and depended are not one or two.. the vision is not vision of its own apart from eye.. eye is not eye on its own apart from vision.. it is the nature of this presencing vision to be dependent and non originating
[8:02 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Quite good.
[8:05 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: But DO must been seen and understood from conventional perspective. How it serves as antidote for the conventional fictions of the mind.

[8:01 PM, 6/19/2020] John Tan: Seems like he enjoys the one hand clapping koan. There is no mirror.
[8:02 PM, 6/19/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Yeah..

Different phases of understanding dependent origination:

[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Means the whole appearance is an unfolding of dependent origination, has no referent besides the magical unfolding that is nowhere to be found but vividly spontaneously displayed
[12:14 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...
[12:15 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: The Aircon is closer than my skin
[12:16 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So how is this different?
[12:17 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: A vivid sponstaneous display before division...
[12:18 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Like color, sensation, sound, odor
[12:21 AM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Hearer hearing sound

and

Ear, sound and sound consciousness

and

Now if I tell u in total exertion, the sound of someone opening the door is like my heart beat...

Any differences?
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in hearer hearing sound, hearer is one thing, hearing is one thing, sound is one thing.. but in total exertion, the ear, sound, sound consciousness, and all the conditions are factors are the hearing
[2:18 AM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: *and factors

[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: in anatta in hearing there is just sound, the ear, sound, sound consciousness are just delineations of the field of happening.. one can also see and have insight into dependent origination at the anatta level but not exactly like total exertion yet.. right after anatta i wrote my experience is more like spontaneous happening dependent on conditions but without agency or subject-object
[6:19 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: field of happening but without agent*
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: so right after anatta, its like there is no hearer, only ear, sound and sound consciousness... the sound consciousness manifests spontaneously when ear meets sound. but there can still be true existence of ear, sound, sound consciousness as truly arising momentary dharmas
[6:24 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: even if there is no subject-object
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So in hearing, there is only sound, no hearer. This deconstructs hearer.

Ear, sound, sound consciousness is post anatta.

But now ear and sound is not deconstructed.
[6:28 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: yeah
[6:31 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: In total exertion, it is not only ear hears, the eyes, ears...whole body hears...ear is no ear, and eyes is no eyes, body is no body and mind is no mind...all r deconstructed into that sound...

(Soh:

“Wondrous! Marvelous!
The teachings of the insentient are inconceivable.
If you listen with the ears, you won't understand.
When you hear with the eyes, then you will know.” - Zen Master Dongshan

“When I talk about listening, I don’t mean just listening with the ear. Listening here includes the totality of perception—all senses open and alive, and still much more than that. The eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are receptive, open, not controlled. A Zen saying describes it as “hearing with one’s eyes and seeing with one’s ears.” It refers to this wholeness of perception. The wholeness of being!
Another Zen saying demands: “Hear the bell before it rings!” Ah, it doesn’t make any sense rationally, does it? But there is a moment when that bell is ringing before you know it! You may never know it! Your entire being is ringing! There’s no division in that—everything is ringing.”” - Toni Packer, The Wonder of Presence, excerpt from Finding a New Way to Listen

“In ceremony there are forms and there are sounds, there is understanding and there is believing. In liturgy there is only intimacy. Haven't you heard the ancient master's teaching: Seeing forms with the whole body-and-mind, hearing sounds with the whole body-and-mind one understands them intimately. Intimate understanding is not like ordinary understanding. Ordinary understanding is seeing with the eye and hearing with the ear; intimacy is seeing with the ear and hearing with the eye. How do you see with the ear and hear with the eye? Let go of the eye, and the whole body-and-mind are nothing but the eye; let go of the ear, and the whole universe is nothing but the ear.” - Zen Master Dogen, Shobogenzo)

[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: ic.. yeah
[6:33 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now when u look back all the deconstructions, it is just the sound that is heard. Only sound...but it was "hearer hearing sound"
Then
"Ears, sound, sound consciousness"
Then
It is connectedness of everything as this hearing...
[6:34 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So look into ur experience, sees how the parts r divided by names and designations
[6:39 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: Now where does causes and conditions step in? Is there any division and can u trace any division?
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Cause and conditions step in when the parts, conditions and relations and designation step in
[7:05 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Therefore Cause and effect are interdefined
[7:06 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: There is no real division, only dependently designated relations
[7:40 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: So what does it mean that causes and conditions r empty? Also what is the purpose of deconstructing?
[7:55 PM, 6/16/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The conventional causes and conditions unfindable and dependent on the whole host of factors and relations.. purpose is to deconstruct the naive notion of real entities like real ears interacting with real sound producing real effects (inherent production).. in effect all relations are experienced as total exertion and empty clarity rather than truly existent causes and effects or what malcolm said as if eye is inherent agent of inherent forms etc
[7:57 PM, 6/16/2020] John Tan: If u don't use any Buddhist terms, what do u think is the purpose of deconstruction?

For context to this conversation, read this first: Primordially Unborn

 
John Tan, 2023: "What is important is DO [dependent origination] tells you directly it is freedom from all extremes aka 8 negations of Nagarjuna without the need to give up concepts, parts, causes or conditions.  That is the key.  Not just like illusion which is simply an experiential taste, not an insight of the view."

Soh, 2023: I like this sutra (Primordially Unborn) a lot that I printed out.
John Tan, 2023: 👍This [sutra] is actually very good.

...

[2:27 PM, 6/14/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Chapter 25
Engaging in Discernment
25.­1

“Young man, how do bodhisattva mahāsattvas who practice that discernment of phenomena, who view phenomena as phenomena, attain the highest, complete enlightenment?

“Young man, bodhisattva mahāsattvas who practice that discernment of phenomena, who view phenomena as phenomena, do not perceive enlightenment as other than form. They do not approach enlightenment as other than form. They do not seek enlightenment as other than form. They do not attain enlightenment as other than form. They do not inspire beings to an enlightenment that is other than form. They do not see a tathāgata as other than form. They see a tathāgata in this way: ‘The Tathāgata is the fearlessness that is the nature of form.’ They do not see the tathāgata as other than form, as other than the nature of form. They do not see the nature of form as other than the tathāgata. The nature of that which is called form and that of the tathāgata are nondual. The bodhisattva mahāsattvas who see in that way are engaging in the discernment of phenomena.

[long quote cut https://read.84000.co/translation/toh127.html ]
[2:36 PM, 6/14/2020] John Tan: What do u understand from it?
[5:23 PM, 6/14/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Now looking at the thousands on droplet on window.. each reflecting all surroundings... nothing has inherent essence besides the merely dependently originating appearance.. pure appearance is like mere designation without referent like chariot. Means appearing without core or essence just like designated entities are designated dependent on various conditions without essence
[8:47 PM, 6/14/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Also i see why you said a thought or phenomena is neither arising nor non arising but nonarising due to dependent origination.. for example a form that depends on eye and other countless conditions cannot be said to come from anywhere, go anywhere or have come into being anywhere. Its nature is just like chariot.

Such a form is only merely designated and appearing in dependence on all those factors.. have no real existence of its own, not truly originated, coming or going

It is not arising or truly existent, it is also not non existent or totally nonarising, but rather it is phenomena that is free from existence or nonexistence or inherent production but dependently originating

It is also not about it being dreamlike or merely appearing, rather it is about the essencelessness of dependent origination
[8:50 PM, 6/14/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Therefore to truly comprehend the nature of form is to comprehend its dependent origination and emptiness simultaneously
[8:51 PM, 6/14/2020] John Tan: Because of the sutra?
[8:51 PM, 6/14/2020] Soh Wei Yu: Was contemplating just now and occurred to me
[8:52 PM, 6/14/2020] John Tan: What about ur experience?
[8:54 PM, 6/14/2020] John Tan: What about the spontaneous display when expressed conventionally is DO and emptiness. How do u understand spontaneous display as DO and emptiness? How do u relate convention and the ultimate?
[9:03 PM, 6/14/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The spontaneous display is what i had in mind when i say nature of form is dependently originating and empty.. the vivid vision of red flower is not located inside the flower, in the eye, in anywhere.. it is not truly arisen but is a vivid presence that is free of extremes and expressed conventionally as DO

All phenomena are conventionally dependently originating, ultimately empty clarity free from extremes
[9:10 PM, 6/14/2020] John Tan: Quite good.
[9:15 PM, 6/14/2020] John Tan: Try not to be too intellectual now, feel everything with ur whole body mind naturally.