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Ling's Post
If there is no-self, how to explain rebirth?
Comments
Punna Wong
Simple!
Understand that the Buddha did not teach "Rebirth" But Repeated Birth.
Yin Ling
Punna Wong you cannot answer!
Yin Ling
Punna Wong but why repeated birth
?

Stian Gudmundsen Høiland
Bhavapaccaya jati.
André A. Pais
If there is no self, how to explain digestion? Or waking up from sleep?
(Do mean "there is no-self," or "there is no self"? The former is an affirmation, the latter a negation.)
Yin Ling
No-self as a doctrine, or no self as a description, whichever makes more sense.
Not quite the answer with ur first two counter questions?

John Tan
André A. Pais other than complying with conventionality, y is “self” needed for digestion and waking up?
André A. Pais
It's
not. That's my point. Likewise with rebirth. If a (truly existing) self
was required for rebirth, there wouldn't be rebirth. Thus, that a 'self
goes through rebirth' is a mere convention. Rebirth itself is a mere
convention.
In
a way, the same analysis that refutes the self also refutes rebirth
(just like shunyata is an extension of anatta). So, the idea of rebirth
without a self seems to be a kind of semi-analysis (deep enough to
refute self, but shallow enough to leave rebirth untouched).
John Tan
André A. Pais do u also negate what that is vividly happening, the occurrence?
André A. Pais
How could one negate what is vividly happening?
John Tan
Next,
in hunger, we eat. Do u deny the "hunger" and the "eating"? If
"negating" does not equate "denying", then what is being negated and
what is not being negated?
If negating equals denying, then why "eat"?
André A. Pais
I
can respond to your questions on different levels. Hunger is
unfinfable, eating is unfindable, etc. Conventionally, those labels were
created and we all agree on their meaning. In that sense, even a
conventional self exists, feels hunger and then eats.
André A. Pais
Ultimately,
all words and meanings are being negated. Conventionally, everything
and anything can make sense and become undeniable, as long as sufficient
consensus is gathered.
John Tan
If one is free from words and meanings, do we stop eating when hungry and stop waking up from sleep?
André A. Pais
I'm not free of words and meanings, but I'm guessing "enlightened folk" don't go starving! 

Attempt
Rebirth
might not refer to a continuation or perpetuation of an unwholesome
'self', but rather the 'Outcome' of the continued unfolding of karmic
causal-relation link generated by anything including thoughts and deeds
of a 'self'.
I
suppose rebirth can be understood without invoking a permanent self or
soul, but seen as a consequence of the impermanent and interdependent
nature of existence.
Mr./Ms. JST
I would say that it’s not a “self” or essence/core that is being born or reborn.
Like
in daily life, the seeming “continuity” seems to be that same
birth/rebirth every “instant” by D.O. How come an instant flows into the
next ?
It
seems it is only our delusion; tendency to grasp that reify a solidity
and continuity of a solid thing, be it mind or body that calls it a
rebirth or a self.
I
think the same coreless “process” is happening on its own; is the
digestion, is the waking up, is the transitions from one instant to the
next, is the repeated births…
(Please help me clarify if necessary ! )
Ok too much words, better go take my coffee 

Yin Ling
Mr./Ms. JST this is really good I like this haha.
John Tan
Mr./Ms. JST
yes. There is no denial of what that is happening and taking place
that we conventionally designate as "rebirth", "digestion" or "waking
up", they are as valid as it can be.
A
mind that thinks a "self" is needed to take "rebirth" or initiates
action also implies that a self can be dis-associated and stand apart
from the action taking place because they come from the same pattern of
thoughts.
So there is no escape from the action of body, speech and mind.
Mr./Ms. JST
John Tan yes ! Thanks!

I absolutely see the validity of the conventional as well !
I don’t have a “prefered” view but I do tend to look for clarity without denying any standpoints or their seeming absence.
Mr. TJ
Like
Jean-Sebastien said, the real question is how can their be continuity
at all without an essence. If you accept it as a conventionally valid
cognition to identify the person you were yesterday and the person you
are today, even without an underlying essence, and if you believe in
yogic perception that transcends the physical senses, it is not at all
unreasonable that yogic perception could produce a conventionally valid
cognition that identifies some person now with some person a long time
ago.
Mr. OMA
Due
to karma, if there is ignorance there is one kinds of causation. Its
just cause and effect self or no self does not matter, except the kinds
of karma that is generated, be it based on ignorance or not.
Mr. OMA
It matters on what kind of karmas, but l think the cause and effect applies as before nevertheless.
RIGPAWIKI.ORG
Karma - Rigpa Wiki
Mr. WA
I
really like this description, but it may not really be something we can
"know for sure" from direct experience in this life. More like an
intuition that feels true, perhaps.
Sim Pern Chong
Hmm...could
it be that perhaps there was no birth, death, rebirth...but when viewed
from certain conditions/obscuration appeared so.
And that the appearing and experiencing of the apparent (compulsive) rebirths were due to misinterpretation of reality.
Seem strange coming from someone who has 'remembered' previous existences. 

John Tan
Sim Pern Chong better to accept rebirth and ur remembrance of
ur past life is precious in my opnion. It is not like how the inherent
pattern negates "rebirth", that is jumping too fast into conclusion.
That is y it is extremely crucial to understand dependent arising first.
Then the logic of how the extremes of coming and going, life and
death, production and cessation are realized to be invalid and at the
same time the validity of the conventional remains.
Sim Pern Chong
John Tan I see.. thanks John 

Mr./Ms. MS
The law of conservation of energy
Yin Ling
Mr./Ms. MS what do you mean?
Functioning as no-self conserve energy, or vice Versa lol
Mr./Ms. MS
Yin Ling
The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be
created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to
another. Self or no self, energy will transform (would be interpreted as
rebirth from false self perspective).
Mr./Ms. BR
My thoughts base on my learnings.....
When
I fully awaken from the explanation of Heart Sutra by Dr Punna Wong And
GRATEFUL for others authors, speakers, commentaries from fb like
this.... Too many to mentions...
I
perceived RE-BIRTH now as when awaken every morning, it's a NEW day....
I don't cling with the yesterday nor I CLING for tomorow, but TREAsure
the moments of today.... For I am conscious and control.
I
try my best to be 'Sync' with what it's happening, obviously, I am very
very HUMAN and still very very affected by 8 winds but I'm somehow
Conscious.... and try best to live within the 5 precept except the lying
part for I am still into 'business', this is an honest revelation and
sadly it's not intentional but necessary, now, I'm trying my best to be
as honest in dealing with 'agency', it requires wisdom and patience to
know how to talk to them.
Going
back to Re-Birth, I always have this qs in my mind long before I am
serious in my buddhist practice : where am I during my sleep? Well, my
body was in the bed.... Lately, my dream are vivid and somehow, I feel
the fruition of my practice for I am able to be aware when I'm in
'there'.... When I'm in dreams, its seems REAL TIME there, like I went
into a Time portal and the scene, situation are somehow familiar, I am
able to converse, I know whom I'm talking , what about , where I am when
I'm in there..... but when I'm AWAKEN from the sleep and dreams, I
sometimes remember but mostly I forgot but the sensation from it, either
Happy or exhausted..... For me, its a proof that If conscious are
working, the body is still working and not benefiting from sleep. The
Anatta or non-self is there..... I... Can.... Sense... Like... I...
am... An invisible energy cruising from moment to moment..... No
form....
Sometimes
when I'm in deep... I try to move my body and pretty amaze how fast the
body moves like I'm typing these messages.... I know this can be
explain by biologist but amazing the fastness of it.... I have only
GRATEFUL for doing its function.
From
that on, I treasure each day, I try to be mindful.... Due to open
worlds now, everything that pandemic puts on hold was beginning to take a
lots of my time now, I joke myself for those 'PATIENCE' I save during
pandemic practice was now seeing bottom and I know where I am.
Maybe
some of you here may not agree, after REALIZING that moment is the
reality.... I decided to focus now on my FAMILY, before my heart was
into practice.... Now I think that's secondary for me, I CHOSE to do my
duties first wholeheartedly then after when Im really done with it, the
next is my practice. No worry Coz I can INCORPORATE now my practice with
my duty.... Proof? My Mother in law was a typical traditional Chinese
wife and she is a very controlled person, yet she is now WILLING to come
to temple with me, I am able to penetrate her heart..... Guess, she saw
something in me and I can only assume that she sense something
wonderful in me. Its not easy to talk to her so I have yet to know what
is that.
Sorry
for the long messages, i try my best to narrate to you all: my
teachers and co-practioners for this. In reality, I am still very very
FAr from each of your level, my cup are empty for all of you to fill in,
with this, I stand corrected.
With respects to all of you, Namste 







Yin Ling
Mr./Ms. BR it’s all great what you have just said, but you didn’t answer the question! 

Yin Ling
IMO,
Fundamental ignorance is the key driver of birth/rebirth(both are similar in nature).
Fundamental
ignorance is the cause of our mistake when viewing reality, it’s there
since we are born, carried along from past lives to this life, the
powerful grasping energy that propels cyclic existence, for eons and
eons, beginningless.
This ignorance is a perception that sees Inherency or solidity when there is none.
This ignorance sees “self” over here and another “self” over there when there is none.
This
ignorance separates and grasp on to “me”, “things” and then create the
chasm that allows pushing and pulling (attraction and aversion), create
karma, and propel cyclic existence.
That’s it.
Ignorance is the engine of the 12 links of rebirth / birth/death cycle.
That is the engine we need to remove.
When a person realized self-less-ness, at the deepest level, they see reality as they are.
This whole structure built up by fundamental ignorance will collapse, and rebirth stops.
No-self is how things have always been, regardless of rebirth, birth, death, enlightenment.
rebirth
or birth happens without a self any way. It’s not like if there is
rebirth then there is a self. Nope. It’s because the person have
ignorance thinking that there is a self, and grasp onto some phantom
energy that this whole rebirth cycle cannot be stopped or slowed down.
There is no a thread of self, not an atom anywhere in our reality.
Reality is self-less, empty, and dependently originated before, now, and forever.
Ignorance is the error in our mind. A flaw in perception.
Imo.
Mr./Ms. BR
Yin Ling you answer it. 

Yin Ling
Mr./Ms. BR actually don’t even need to wait till death.
This rebirth /birth is moment to moment.
Right at this moment we can see whether we are rebirthing or not.
If there is a sense of self, we are gonna come back for sure, which realm only . 



Mr./Ms. BR
Yin Ling agree on this. 

Mr. RDT
If
there was a self then no rebirth would be possible. Not only that: no
change of psychophysical constituents of person in this life would be
possible. You would be stuck with the same self all the time.
Mr. RDT
Yin Ling
who is being rebirthed doesn't apply. Its a leading question. The
question already makes an assumption about "Who" being rebirthed.
If
I were to express an answer in words, which is always a limited
endeavor, then Id say that the karmic movements maintain their
momentums. But momentum is not an object or a self. I think that the
examples of continuity I had provided below illustrate this point.
Lets take game of pool
.
One ball hits another one. Direction, speed etc are somewhat maintained
even though another ball and the previous one are not the same self.

Other, so called secondary factors, modify the movement so its non linear.
Balls will stop without the case such as hitting to move them.
What is the primary cause of maintaining karmic momentum?
As You guys have already established in this thread: ignorance
Mr. RDT
Yin Ling
according to the Pali Canon when the ignorance is uprooted and the
12fold chain stopped then whole mechanism is extuinguished (nibbana).
Like putting out a fire or rather it being extinguished due to
eliminating factors that kept it burning.
Mahayana however says a Buddha maintains their continuum after awakening.
Ive
never encountered a sound explanation in Mahayana literature nor from
any teacher which would explain why there is such continuity in absence
of separate, inherent self. Id go as far as to say it sounds like
Mahayana Buddhism's Achilles' heel and "mystery of faith" cause from my
limited experience the tradition seems to avoid this issue, or just make
assumpions (alaya gets transformed into englitened stream, thanks bye)
and when I presented this question to people more knowledegeable than
me, their answers sounded more like cop outs lol.
If we'd say it goes out we are back to Pali Canon's notion of
arahathood. If we say it melts and blends with everything else then were
back to brahman lalaland.
One could say its all of that or neither of that or its inexpressible but:
- all are extreme positions still
- we are talking about relative things like karma and consciousness continuums
- validity of these relative explanations is unfortunately related to them being sound explanations
And
then we have explanations about multiple emanations and multiple tulkus
in Tibetan Buddhism which muddy the water even further. If You ask
anybody theyll just say something about one moon being reflected in
several buckets of water. Thats all fine and dandy but how does it fit
with and resolve the issue above? Havent heard a convincing explanation.
Maybe You guys came across something so Ill tag You:
Yin Ling
From
my limited understanding is. There is no “continuum” per se. That’s an
inherent view, still holding onto a self, the self disguise behind a
continuum.
The only sound explanation for myself is from the Gelug school of thoughts of “mere I”.
The
dalai lama goes onto say that the basis of designation of this “mere I “
- an I imputed on with no referent / no Inherent existence at the
highest yoga tantra level is the clear light mind. And that too is not
inherent.
For
my own insight and experience and making sense of things this is
tenable. Mind is not inherent or singular. Only with dependence to other
conditions any world come to be.
But
I of course cannot explain or describe what is being seen by a Buddha -
one who has rid off all obscurations. Even 1st to 8th ground
bodhisattva view I cannot imagine. Only practice probably will take me
there one day? Lol
For
the flame analogy in the Pali sutra. My understanding is, even the
flame did not arise in the first place. Can we say it’s extinguish? Is
there really anything out there or in here that truly exist? Are you
really talking to yin ling?



André A. Pais
Nafis Rahman may also have something to contribute in here.
André A. Pais
I
think there is a continuum of experience, appearances or clarity. I
prefer not talking much about 'mind' at a more fundamental level. When
there is delusion, appearances are called mind, people, phenomena, etc.;
when enlightened, appearances are called kayas and wisdoms. Same thing
fundamentally though: experience, appearances or clarity.
Such
a continuum coming to a sudden stop at enlightenment would be both
illogical and unattractive. So, the burden is more on the side of the
proponents of cessation, than on the proponents of continuity.
Conventionally,
things arise and cease. Ultimately, there is nothing to cease, because
nothing has arisen. And "non-existence" is not a thing or place or state
that one could go to or change into. Conventionally, a fire is
extinguished when the conditions supporting it are removed, but nothing
significant happens to experience as a whole - it merely changes its
appearance.
When
we see someone dying, it looks like something has become non-existent,
even if the body is still there. But subjectively, from the pov of the
deceased, it's illogical to posit that the last moment of experience
suddenly vanished into nothingness. How could something existent become
non-existent? How does something "enter" non-existence? Where's the
doorway? Is non-existence a place one can go into? Does non-existence
exist, after all?
So,
the cutting off of the continuity of experience is illogical. Whatever
happens after full enlightenment is beyond reference points, as is
everything before enlightenment, ultimately speaking. The difference is
that, even conventionally, Buddhahood is indescribable, because words
have their meaning rooted in experience, and we haven't had such
experience yet. Besides, enlightenment having dissolved notions such as
conventional and ultimate, it probably means that conventions and
ordinary terms just have no footing in such an experience.
Also,
notions of time, space and continuity are probably moot at the stage of
Buddhahood, so questions pertaining continuity in time or location in
space (including any distinction between or unity of mindstreams) are
not applicable. Thus, the question of going out of existence (arhathood)
or continuing on in supreme unity (Brahman lala land) probably becomes
irrelevant.
André A. Pais
Concerning
cessation and continuity, when causes cease, effects follow suit. So,
with the end of ignorance, follows the end of deluded experience. But
why can't experience go on qualified by wisdom and insight?
If
only ignorance, karma and kleshas are able to sustain experience and
appearances, one would be led to think that ignorance is more powerful
and functional than wisdom.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland
I
have lots I could write about this--and already have, all over the
place--but what about this: Nagarjuna gave advice on how to understand
the continuum of the aggregates in his Pratītyasamutpāda Hṛdaya Kārikā:
5
Like a recitation, a candle, a mirror, a seal,
A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound,
So also with the continuation of the aggregates—
The wise should know they are not transferred.
André A. Pais
The
aggregates are not transfered, neither from moment to moment nor from
life to life. Moreover, inside, outside or in-between such aggregates no
self is ever seen enjoying the (movementless) ride.
Nafis Rahman
NO SELF IN VOLITION
Surely
we would expect to find an “I” in an act of volition. Who decides to
act? Who makes a choice? But if we look closely at a simple action, we
see that a multitude of factors converge to bring it about. Let’s say we
are sitting in a room feeling a bit chilly and we decide to draw a
shawl over our lap. In a normal account, that is all there is to say: “I
felt cold, so I put on a shawl.” But if we look more closely, with the
eyes of meditative mindfulness, we see that there are more steps in the
process.
First
there is the recognition that one is sitting (mindfulness of body).
Then at some point there is a sensation (contact) that we recognize as
cold (perception). Cold is felt as unpleasant (feeling tone), and there
is a reaction of aversion (volitional formation). Not seeing the
reaction mindfully (delusion), we don’t pause to investigate the feeling
tone or formation, but rather distract ourselves (beginning of
proliferation) with the mildly complaining inner voice, “I’m starting to
feel cold,” and perhaps we feel a little shiver (sensation). Perhaps
some perception of “warm” then arises, either by feeling a part of the
body that is well covered or by remembering how the room felt when we
sat down. Based on the perception of warmth, a desire (formation) arises
to experience being warm (sensation with pleasant feeling tone). Just
as the earlier aversion was not seen mindfully as something to
investigate, so also the desire for warmth is not seen mindfully or
investigated. Based on desire for warmth and a touch of delusion (lack
of mindful attention), a memory arises of the shawl lying on the sofa.
Based on desire and memory, a volition arises and we turn our head to
see the shawl on the end of the sofa (perception). Next the urge arises
(volition) to reach for the shawl and cover our lap with it (action) —
which we do.
In
this entire chain of linked causes and effects, there is never a
separate agent or self. Rather there is a back-and-forth dialogue
between the body, perceptions, feeling tone, aversion, desire, volition,
and action. Volition is just another factor of mind that arises based
on prior causes and conditions. It then leads to action, in this case,
of the body. It can be very tempting to identify with volition: “I
decided to reach” or “I reached.” But when we see the momentary nature
of all the factors arising and passing, we see there is no continuity to
volition either. It too arises, does its work, and passes away.
Me: The same principle applies for the process of rebirth as well.

AMAZON.COM
Emptiness: A Practical Guide for Meditators
Nafis Rahman
Continued (from the same text):
REBIRTH AND NOT-SELF
As
we saw in the last chapter, the repetitive patterns of karmic acts lead
to a consistency in personality that can lull us into believing in a
stable, ongoing self. However, when investigated more closely, there is
no actual stability to personality but only the appearance and
reappearance of patterns whose actual makeup is impermanent volitional
formations. In a similar way, the reappearance of a being, or rebirth,
can make us think that there is something stable and ongoing — a self
who journeys from one life to the next. This view can be summed up in
the question, If there is no self, who is reborn? Or in another form,
Where is the self that continues?
Buddhism
considers these questions to be wrongly put. They are like the
question, Who is it that grasps? There is no “one” who is reborn or, for
that matter, who is born at any time, since all birth is rebirth. Birth
is just another event in the unending chain of causes and conditions
that lead to effects. In this chain, karma plays a critical role. There
may always be a great mystery around birth, as there is around death,
but some things in the teachings seem clear. Let us look into the
mechanics of cause, effect, and rebirth as described in the Pali
Discourses.
When
we examine cause and effect in just this lifetime, we see that there is
continuity in the patterns of our experience, even though no one thing
continues. Moment after moment, sense experiences arise and pass. Each
experience in each new moment arises conditioned by what was in the
previous moment. This moment fades and conditions the following moment.
In this way, the past makes its imprint on the present, and the present
upon the future. No one thing lasts across the three times, from past to
present to future. Nothing endures, but patterns are perpetuated as
each moment “rubs up against” and conditions the next.
According
to the texts, this is what happens in rebirth also. When a being dies,
there is some continuation of moment-to-moment experience during the
time following death. That continuity of experience becomes linked to a
new body, which becomes the previous being’s next birth. Nothing among
the aggregates has endured, but some stream continues in a new channel,
influenced by the old. This is the same way experience is happening for
each of us right now. As expressed by Ajahn Amaro, the abbot of
Amaravati Monastery in England, “The process of going from one life to
the next is not very different from the process of going from one moment
to the next in this life.”[7]
The
aggregate of consciousness plays a key role here. Consciousness is not
lasting either, but rather arises and passes with each new moment of
sense contact. So it is this impermanent consciousness that forms the
link to the new life. In one discourse, the Buddha says that “the
nutriment consciousness is a condition for the production of future
renewed existence,” in other words, rebirth.[8]
A
few discourses discuss the process in more detail. In one, the Buddha
says that “the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place through the
union of three things: the union of the father and the mother, the
mother’s season, and the being to be reborn.”[9] In another discourse,
the Buddha explains the role of consciousness more clearly: “If
consciousness were not to come into the mother’s womb, would
name-and-form develop there?” A bhikkhu replies, “No, Lord.” “Therefore
consciousness is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of
name-and-form.”[10] Name-and-form is the translation of nāmarūpa, which
means the combination of material form — here meaning the new body —
with the mental faculties that (eventually) allow one to name
experience. Yet another discourse speaks of this moment as the “descent
into the womb” of the future embryo.[11]
Bhikkhu Bodhi summarizes it like this:
It
is the stream of consciousness coming from the preceding existence that
functions as the nutriment consciousness by generating, at the moment
of conception, the initial rebirth-consciousness, which in turn brings
forth . . . name-and-form.[12]
The
new life is influenced in both outer circumstances and inner
disposition by the prior being’s karma. Outwardly, the circumstances of
the new being will be determined in some ways — though not necessarily
in every way — by the being’s prior karma, as outlined in the discourse
cited above on the karmic causes for abundance and health. Inwardly, the
character and spiritual temperament of the new being are influenced by
the prior being’s character development, as outlined in that discourse
on the karmic cause for wisdom. In the story of the Buddha himself, it
took many lifetimes for him to develop and perfect — to accumulate — all
the wholesome qualities required to reach awakening under his own
guidance. Collectively these qualities are known as the perfections
(Pali: pāramī). In the Theravadan tradition they are ten in number:
generosity, virtue, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience,
truthfulness, determination, loving-kindness, and equanimity. Similarly
our journey to awakening may take many lifetimes, but we are advancing
all the time, in every life, in which we conscientiously develop the
perfections.
How
long is the gap between a person’s death and the conception moment of
their next rebirth? The Buddha didn’t answer this question directly, but
there are hints in the Pali Discourses that the “being to be reborn”
may refer to an interim form of existence that could last for an
unspecified time.[13] The Theravadan Abhidhamma posits that there is not
even a moment’s gap between death and the next conception. Perhaps the
Abhidhamma tenet was invented to support the view that consciousness
cannot exist apart from a physical form — a view nowhere proclaimed by
the Buddha. The Tibetan Book of the Dead says that the gap is typically
around forty-nine days, although by tracking the deaths and subsequent
rebirths of many Tibetan lamas, one can see a wide variation in this
number.
Could
the terms death and rebirth mean just the moment-to-moment passing away
of a temporary identity (for example, “I am cold”) and then rebecoming
as a new identity in this life (“Now I am warm”)? According to the Pali
Canon, the answer is no. The discourses define death as “perishing,
breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the
breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass.”14 They
describe birth (and hence rebirth) as beings’ “being born, descent [into
the womb], production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the
obtaining of the sense bases.”15 Taken together, these passages clearly
define birth as the taking up of a new physical body after a previous
physical death (…)
Vasubandhu’s
Abhidharmakosa has a more elaborate explanation regarding the process
of rebirth. However if someone is interested in this topic from the
perspective of direct experience, I recommend attempting to realize
mutual interpenetration across space-time since it enables oneself to
experience rebirth in real-time and access the ‘karmic chain’ of one’s
existence.
Nafis Rahman
Wikipedia has a basic overview as well:
Karma and what gets reborn
An
important question which was debated by Indian Buddhist thinkers was
the question of what exactly gets reborn, and how this is different from
the Indian concept of an attā (ātman, unchanging self), which Buddhism
rejects. The early Buddhist texts sometimes speak of an "evolving
consciousness" (Pali: samvattanika viññana, M.1.256)[54] or a "stream of
consciousness" (Pali: viññana sotam, D.3.105) as that which
transmigrates. However, according to Bruce Matthews, "there is no single
major systematic exposition on this subject" in the Pali Canon.[55][56]
Some
Buddhist scholars such as Buddhaghosa, held that the lack of an
unchanging self (atman) does not mean that there is a lack of continuity
in rebirth, since there is still a causal link between lives. The
process of rebirth across different realms of existence was compared to
how a flame is transferred from one candle to another.[57][58]
Various
Indian Buddhist schools like the Sautrantika, Mahasamghika and the
Mahasisaka held that the karmic link between lives could be explained by
how karmic effects arose out of "seeds" which were deposited in a
mental substratum.[59] The Sautrantika Elder Srilata defended the theory
of a "subsidiary element" (anudhatu or *purvanudhatu) which corresponds
to the seed theory.[60] The Sautrantika school held this was a
"transmigrating substratum of consciousness".[61] It argued that each
personal action "perfumes" the individual stream of consciousness and
leads to the planting of a seed that would later germinate as a good or
bad karmic result. This allowed them to explain what underwent the
process of rebirth.[62]
The
Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika school on the other hand did not make use of
the seed theory, since they held an eternalist theory of time, which
held that phenomena (dharmas) in the past, present and future exist.
Because of this, they argued that after an action was done by a person,
it still continued to exist, and to be in a state of "possession"
(prāpti) vis a vis the mindstream (santana) of the person who performed
the action. According to Vaibhāṣikas, it was this which guaranteed the
capacity of past karma to produce an effect long after it had been
performed.[63]
The
seed theory was defended by the influential Buddhist philosopher
Vasubandhu in his Abhidharmakosha.[60] It is also present in the
Viniscayasamgrahani of the Yogacarabhumi.[64] The Sarvastivada
Abhidharma master Saṃghabhadra states that the seed theory was referred
to by different names including: subsidiary elements (anudhatu),
impressions (vasana); capability (samarthya), non-disappearance
(avipranasa), or accumulation (upacaya).[60]
The
seed theory was adopted and further developed by the Yogacara school
into their doctrine of the "container consciousness" (alaya-vijñana),
which is a subliminal and constantly changing stream of consciousness
that stores the seeds and undergoes rebirth.[62][53] Asanga's
Mahāyānasaṃgraha equated the alaya-vijñana with similar teachings found
in other Buddhist schools which indicates that the idea of a rebirth
consciousness was widespread. He states that this is the same idea which
is called "root-consciousness" (mula-vijñana) by the Mahasamghika
schools and what the Sthavira schools call the bhavaṅga.[65]
According
to Lobsang Dargyay, the Prāsaṇgika branch of the Madhyamaka school
(which is exemplified by the philosopher Chandrakirti), attempted to
refute every concept for a support or a storehouse of karmic information
(including the alaya-vijñana). Instead, some Prāsaṇgika philosophers
argue that a karmic action results in a potential which will ripen
later. This potential is not a thing and does not need a support.
However, other Madhyamaka thinkers (which are classified as
"Svatantrikas" by Tibetans scholars), generally adopted the Sautrantika
concept of tendencies stored in the stream of consciousness.[62]
The
Theravāda school's doctrine of the bhavaṅga (Pali, "ground of
becoming", "condition for existence") is another theory that was used to
explain rebirth. It is seen as a mental process which conditions the
next mental process at the moment of death and rebirth (though it does
not actually travel in between lives, see below).[66]
The
Pudgalavada school of early Buddhism accepted the core premise of
Buddhism that there is no ātman, but asserted that there is a "personal
entity" (pudgala, puggala) that retains karmic merit and undergoes
rebirth. This personal entity was held to be neither different nor
identical to the five aggregates (skandhas).[67] This concept was
attacked by Theravada Buddhists in the early 1st millennium CE.[67] The
personal entity concept was rejected by the mid-1st millennium CE Pali
scholar Buddhaghosa, who attempted to explain rebirth mechanism with
"rebirth-linking consciousness" (patisandhi-citta).[67][68] It was also
criticized by northern Buddhist philosophers like Vasubandhu.

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia
Mr. RDT

























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You see continuity?
What is continued?
Same self?
Continuity
doesnt mean that a self is continued. Just the next chain in dependent
origination arising in dependence of the previous one.
*traditional examples:
- One candle lighting another one. Its not the same flame but there is continuity.
- One wave arising after another one
*nontraditional
- added domino
- You can add game of pool, one
hitting another ball making it move

-
animation - if You quickly go through a series of drawings, they might
make an illusion of continuity, it might look like there is the same
body moving from frame to frame
-
display screens - You can see some pixels points going off and some
lighting on next to them, giving the impression of one object moving
from one place to another
Etc.
John Tan
Mr./Ms. JST
summer does not become winter likewise a vision-consciousness does not
become sound-consciousness. The fact that Buddha taught six stream of
consciousness originating dependently is cut the mind from seeing "this"
has transformed to "that".
The
inherent mind cannot see dependent arising in proper so when it is
taught, it is misunderstood. For example, when it is taught that
dependent on causes and conditions or on parts, the inherent mind sees
origination and production but the intended purpose of Nagarjuna,
Chandrakirti, Tsongkhapa is to demonstrate the opposite, that is:
Dependency on causes and conditions is EQUIVALENT to saying no production, no cessation, no coming and no going.
So
instead of seeing "this" is transformed to "that", we see dependent
arising -- non-origination, does not arise, abide or cease. Sim Pern Chong learn to see this then the chain is cut.

William Lim
John Tan to see dependent origination "properly" (without inherency) is to see non-arising and non-cessation?
Mr./Ms. JST
John Tan
in accord with what you said, do I have a right view seeing it as a
seeming transforming continuum of empty clarity that does not see
origination, production and cessation, no coming and no going? At that
point maybe one can see that the six stream of consciousness is
conceptual, every sense is also conceptual, and that it is in actuality
empty clarity that is being experienced that does not originate, come or
go ?
John Tan
Mr./Ms. JST
I understand what u said and there is nothing wrong with it except that
from the perspective of grasping, there is still remainder and not
thorough from my experience.
But
that is just how insights unfold for me, from anatta to
dependent-arising and emptiness to freedom from all elaborations to
spontaneous perfection, I try not to "bypass" the in-between insights.
Also anatta and dependent arising have special meaning to me, so I tend
to over emphasize...
.

Mr./Ms. JST
John Tan
yes and to add a bit to my last reply, as well as this is seen, I
really do enjoy my cup of coffee and this precious family life here
.
Maybe I’m not familiar with the terms of spontaneous perfection but
freedom from all elaboration speaks to me. So really it’s a love for the
width, layers and no layers of what is this. 


John Tan
Mr./Ms. JST
you hold the cup, I taste the coffee. I hit the bell, you hear the
sound. When there is no essence that connects, everything "connects"
wondrously and miraculously. Enjoy the ride and nice chat!

Sim Pern Chong
John Tan Thanks so much John 

Yin Ling
Thanks! Best answer for the question above 

If
dependent origination is seen clearly, the rebirth cycle is cut. Birth
and death also is transcended. Hence replacing the framework thoroughly
with dependent arising / emptiness of inherent existence / no-self is
they key to understand rebirth (or not).
Mr./Ms. AS
Is there a need to explain anymore really? Maybe now there is relaxing into the curiosity. This wonderful curiosity.