Someone wanted to understand more about Tsongkhapa understanding.

I sent him:

“I don’t think you’re off. You’re already pointing at a lot of the right territory — dependent arising, lack of inherent existence, purity, recognition, how afflictive functioning appears. It’s clear you’re not treating this casually.

Where I think the next step is: you’re opening many threads at once, but not yet following any one of them all the way through. At this stage, instead of widening, it’s about drilling down.

Take the statement “things are empty and pure because they’re dependently arisen.” That’s good, and it’s in line with how Tsongkhapa links dependent arising and emptiness: whatever depends on causes and conditions (and on designation by mind) cannot have any inherent nature of its own.  

But Tsongkhapa will immediately press you further:

1. If x is empty because it depends on causes and conditions —

do those causes and conditions themselves have any inherent nature?

2. If you say no, what is the exact reasoning that shows even those causes/conditions are empty and only exist by being dependently designated?

3. Can you carry that all the way through such that nothing in the entire causal network — not the object, not the causes, not “dependent arising” itself — is left standing as something that exists from its own side?

That part is crucial. It’s not enough to say “it’s dependently arisen, therefore empty / pure” as a slogan. In Tsongkhapa’s reading, you have to demonstrate precisely how dependence defeats inherent existence at every level, not just assert it in general terms.  

Same with how you talk about “stain,” “afflictive efficacy,” and “recognition.” You said: when there’s non-recognition, confusion functions as an affliction; with recognition, that confusion is seen as never having truly stained anything, and the afflictive force collapses.

That’s very close to how Dzogchen talks about primordial purity (ka dag) and adventitious obscurations: under non-recognition, the kleshas appear and operate; with recognition, they release, and you see they never truly established themselves.  

From the Madhyamaka/Gelug side, that invites a few surgical questions that are worth answering clearly, because they sharpen your view instead of leaving it a general intuition:

• When you say “stain,” what exactly is being stained?

• Through what mechanism does that “stain” create afflictive functioning — i.e. what, exactly, is the mode of operation of ignorance?

• When recognition happens and the afflictive force stops, what actually happened? Did something get removed, or was something seen through?

These aren’t nitpicks. They’re the heart of insight practice. They force you to describe ignorance and release in a way that is precise, not poetic.

And this is why this can’t really be wrapped up in a few casual lines like “everything is dependently arisen so everything is pure.” If it were that straightforward, we wouldn’t have thousands of pages of Prajñāpāramitā literature and Nāgārjuna’s Mūlamadhyamakakārikā going verse by verse dismantling inherent existence. The Buddha didn’t just drop “it’s empty lol” and walk away — the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras go on and on, and Madhyamaka develops extremely fine-grained arguments about exactly what is negated and how. (The long Prajñāpāramitā texts run into tens of thousands of lines dedicated to this single point, and Nāgārjuna’s MMK is basically a systematic demolition of every candidate for inherent existence.)  

So if you’re serious about understanding Tsongkhapa’s stream — not just getting reassurance that you’re “already there,” but actually internalizing the view — then this is where, honestly, study becomes necessary. This isn’t something that can be resolved by clever phrasing alone.

Yin Ling very strongly recommends going through the Dalai Lama / Thubten Chodron “Library of Wisdom and Compassion” series for this, especially the emptiness-focused volumes like “Searching for the Self,” “Realizing the Profound View,” and “Appearing and Empty.” These books are explicitly designed to walk a modern reader through Tsongkhapa-style Prāsaṅgika logic: how we wrongly project inherent existence, how dependent arising undercuts that projection, how designation works, and how to hold appearance and emptiness together in meditation. They’re deep, not just inspirational, and they’re meant to take you right into the core analysis. Read them and the volume 5 commentary by Geshe Sopa on insight if you really want to understand Tsongkhapa's stream of thoughts.

Also recommended: His Holiness’s “How to See Yourself As You Really Are.” That one is more introductory — it’s very readable and practical, and it trains you to observe in real time how “I,” “object,” and “function” are being projected as solid, and then to watch that projection unravel via dependence, karma, and imputation. It’s extremely useful groundwork, but it doesn’t go all the way into the very sharp, technical Prāsaṅgika moves that Tsongkhapa is famous for. Think of it as establishing the habit of looking, preparing you for the heavier material.  

So my suggestion is basically:

• You’re on the right track.

• At this point, depth matters more than clever synthesis.

• The way to get that depth is to sit with those very specific questions (about how dependence actually erases inherency in every link, and what “stain / recognition” actually means in lived cognition), and to work through systematic presentations that were designed to answer exactly those questions, line by line.

If you do that, you’re not just collecting viewpoints (“Tsongkhapa says X, Dzogchen says Y”), you’re actually doing the same analytic work those traditions expect of a serious practitioner. And that’s the part that really matures the view.”

Mr K asked: "Hi, I've enjoyed reading the blog. I was wondering where your course of study has led you to now? I've been exploring Dzogchen lately and plan to do so for the next couple months before digging into Mahamudra, and then seeing what resonates best for me.

I was curious if you've found yourself studying with a particular teacher, or if a particular teacher did the best job of pointing out and confirming the nature of mind for you, and then how to rest in it (or if they were different).

Thanks for sharing your experiences!"

Soh replied:

Hi Mr K,

"There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction."

"Realization of Chan, Mahāmudra, and Dzogchen are all the same. The length of time it takes to gain that realization is what makes the distinction.

Your concept of ka dag is a bit limited though. Kadag is not simply emptiness, though it has been dumbed down in that way for people like you."

"There are a number of things which make Dzogchen distinct, thögal is one, but there are others, the explanation of the generic basis is another, the specific preliminary practices related to thögal such as 'khor 'das ru shan and so on are others, and the general requirement for some kind of introduction either through the fourth empowerment of Mahāyoga, the ati yoga empowerment found in Anuyoga or the empowerment of the potentiality of vidyā.

As far as tregchö goes, there is really no difference between tregchö, Kagyu Mahāmudra and the meditation the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana — all three have the same point and all three depend on the experiential view imparted during empowerment.

I also want to point out that like the rest of Vajrayāna, Dzogchen practice, path and realization completely depends on the Guru. Guru Yoga is absolutely central to Dzogchen. Without guru yoga and devotion to a realized master, no progress at all is possible in Dzogchen, none whatsoever."

Contact — Zangthal / www.zangthal.com

Talk on Buddhahood in this life, a Dzogchen Commentary, trans. Acharya Malcolm Smith Dependent origination is the apparent origination of entities that seem to manifest in dependence on causes and conditions. But as Nāgārjuna states above, those causes and conditions are actually the ignorance which afflicts the mindstream, and the conditions of grasping, mine-making and I-making which are the drivers of karmic activity that serve to reify the delusion of a self, or a self ... www.awakeningtoreality.com

Clarifications on Dharmakaya and Basis by Loppön Namdrol/Malcolm the future does not exist. Appearing in the present does not exist in any way. Karma does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Intellect does not exist. Wisdom does not exist. Saṃsāra does not exist. Nirvāṇa does not exist. Not even vidyā (rig pa) itself exists. Not even the appearances of pristine consciousness exist. All those arose from a ... www.awakeningtoreality.com

If you want one place to begin, pick one Mahāmudrā book by Thrangu Rinpoche and work through it slowly while cross-checking view in practice.

• Sōtō Zen (online training) — White Wind Zen Community (Anzan Hōshin Rōshi; Ven. Jinmyo Renge Ōsho) offers a long-distance training program and responds to practice questions by email:
  https://wwzc.org/long-distance-training-program 
  AtR compilations for background:
  • Anzan Hōshin: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/11/a-compilation-of-zen-teacher-anzan.html 
  • Ven. Jinmyo Renge: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/12/zen-master-ven-jinmyo-renge-senseis.html 

  Long Distance Training Program | White Wind Zen Community White Wind Zen Community's Long-distance Training Program was established in 1995 to support the practice of students living more than an hour's commuting distance from Dainen-ji, the monastery founded by Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi, located in Ottawa, Canada. Since that time, people living all over the world have joined the Sangha of students studying and practicing under the direction of Roshi's ... wwzc.org

  
  

  Zen Master Ven Jinmyo Renge Sensei's Teachings Open Microsoft Edge or Adobe Acrobat Reader. Open the PDF file. In Edge, click the book with speaker icon; in Acrobat Reader, find the read-aloud option in the View menu. Select "Read Aloud" and use the controls to manage playback. Adjust reading speed and voice in "Voice options." Stop the reading with the "X" button in the control bar. www.awakeningtoreality.com

  
  
• Thubten Chodron / Sravasti Abbey (regular online teachings) — I have not attended her teachings or read much of it before; this is recommended by a trusted friend, Yin Ling.
  Program overview (weekly): https://sravastiabbey.org/program-overview/weekly-teachings/ 
  Schedule at a glance: https://sravastiabbey.org/schedule-quick-look/ 
  Distance learning: https://sravastiabbey.org/program-overview/distance-learning/ 
  Teacher site: https://thubtenchodron.org/ 

  Distance Learning - Sravasti Abbey - A Buddhist Monastery The course features teachings by the Abbey’s abbess, Ven. Thubten Chodron. Videos and commentaries by her teachers are also included: H.H. the Dalai Lama, Khensur Jampa Tegchok, Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche, Geshe Sonam Rinchen, and others. Course facilitators include monastics, monastic trainees, and long-term students who have progressed through the SAFE program. This PDF lists the books you will ... sravastiabbey.org