draapho:
Regarding the idea that wood and stone have no mind and lack awareness. This is understandable and acceptable. Recognizing that wood and stone have no mind and no awareness can aid in the understanding of emptiness.
But the issue is, from the perspective of emptiness, "sentient beings" also have no mind, and awareness itself is also emptiness. Upon careful observation, if "awareness" is posited as eternal and ever-present, it is actually just a way of subsuming the manifestations of wondrous existence.
From the perspective of emptiness, it seems there shouldn't be a distinction drawn between the "sentient" and the "insentient," right? The Treatise on No-Mind states: "Yet my no-mind is not like that of wood and stone." The underlying implication is that my no-mind is different from the no-mind of wood and stone. That is to say, it distinguishes between "sentient entities" and "insentient entities" on at least some level. If we concede this point, it becomes impossible to continue discussing the issue strictly from the standpoint of emptiness; there must be some conceptual construct making a distinction between the two.
I agree that the discourse around subject and object is not fully penetrating. Its underlying cognitive framework is dualistic, which is why it describes the dropping away of subject and object in a way that still implies a pursuit and a process.
Categorizing this from the perspective of worldviews, my understanding is as follows: Most people hold the Theory of Gradual Origination: Dualism, a spatiotemporal framework, inherent existence, and linear samsara. Those who use the mirror metaphor mostly hold the Theory of Co-emergence: Non-duality, permanence, fundamental essence, and non-linear samsara. Theory of Non-origination: No-self, true emptiness and wondrous existence, dependent origination and emptiness of nature.
Personally, I am currently more inclined to accept the Theory of Co-emergence, though this is loosening, and I am attempting to experience and understand the Theory of Non-origination. When reading the scriptures, I often feel that the questioner holds the view of gradual origination or co-emergence, and the answerer sometimes goes along with their view while responding from the perspective of non-origination...
For instance, regarding the line, "Yet my no-mind is not like that of wood and stone," my core doubt is not whether wood and stone possess awareness. Rather, from the perspective of non-origination, there is no difference between myself and wood or stone; there is no difference between the sentient and the insentient. It is only from the perspective of gradual origination that sentient beings subsume, grasp, create karma, and undergo retribution. As for the definitions of sentient versus insentient, and the classification of plants as insentient entities... I maintain a skeptical attitude toward that.
Soh:
It seems there is a fundamental confusion regarding what "no mind" truly means. When Bodhidharma said there is no mind, he is saying there is no inherently existing mind; he is not negating sentience. As Juliette Paul explained:
"none of these things are about nihilism, although that is a real danger for those who misunderstand emptiness. No Mind is what is always already true. It has no existence of its own. No mind apart from phenomena, no phenomena apart from mind. This is what Soh Wei Yu meant when he said there is no true existence of mind."
This is what Bodhidharma meant here and is precisely what is stated in the doctrine of no mind: "The disciple then suddenly attained great awakening, realizing for the first time that there is no object outside the mind, and no mind outside the object. In all actions and movements, he attained freedom, severing all nets of doubt, with no further hindrances."
However, what Bodhidharma rejects is that the no mind of no inherent existence that is realized in the realization of anatman, is equal to the no mind that means the absence of sentience of knowingness, like a corpse's inert unknowing state. That is not the no mind that is realized by Bodhidharma.
Likewise, I highly recommend you read this whole article in full: [No Awareness Does Not Mean Non-Existence] https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/01/no-awareness-does-not-mean-non.html
Here is an excerpt:
"There are a couple of articles on 'No Awareness' or 'Beyond Awareness'. It must be emphasized that this does not mean the non-existence of awareness, or the denial of awareness or luminosity.
“Geovani Geo to me, to be without dual is not to subsume into one and although awareness is negated, it is not to say there is nothing.
Negating the Awareness/Presence (Absolute) is not to let Awareness remain at the abstract level. When such transpersonal Awareness that exists only in wonderland is negated, the vivid radiance of presence are fully tasted in the transient appearances; zero gap and zero distance between presence and moment to moment of ordinary experiences and we realize separation has always only been conventional.
Then mundane activities -- hearing, sitting, standing, seeing and sensing, become pristine and vibrant, natural and free.” – John Tan, 2020
"awareness [seen as] other than what appears is alaya." - John Tan (alaya as still a subtle state of ignorance)
Lastly, there is no difference in terms of empty nature between yourself and wood or stone, and experientially all displays are the dynamic displays of radiance and emptiness. However, the difference is that wood and stone do not have their own mindstreams. They are not sentient, they are not aware or cognizant.
Otherwise, one falls into the solipsistic delusion that 'oh everything only exists as my own mind' or the delusion of universal consciousness or Brahman 'oh we are all just one consciousness', both are wrong. Anatta only denies the inherent existence of mind, or the Atman View, but does not negate mindstreams.
Some conversations with John back in 2012 are quite illuminating on this subject:
John: To me is just is "Soh" an eternal being...that's all. No denial of Soh as a conventional self. All is just him is an inference too. There is no other is also an assumption.
Soh: That's what I said, lol. He didn't see it.
John: But other mindstreams is a more valid assumption. Don't you think so? And verifiable.
Soh: Yeah.
John: Whatever in conventional reality still remain, only that reification is seen through. Get it? The centre is seen through be it "subject" or "object", they are imputed mental constructs. Only the additional "ghostly something" is seen through. Not construing and reifying. Nothing that "subject" does not exist. This seeing through itself led to implicit non-dual experience.
Soh: "Nothing that "subject" does not exist." - what you mean?
John: Not "subject" or "object" does not exist. Or dissolving object into subject or subject into object… etc. That "extra" imputation is seen through. Conventional reality still remain as it is. By the way, focus more on practice in releasing any holdings.... do not keep engaging on all these.
Soh: I see.. Conventional reality are just names imposed on non-inherent aggregates, right.
John: Yes. That led to releasing of the mind from holding...no subsuming of anything. What you wrote is unclear. Do you get what I mean? Doesn't mean Soh does not exist… lol. Or I am you or you are me. Just not construing and reifying.
Soh: I see. Nondual is collapsing objects to self, thus I am you. Anatta simply sees through reification, but conventionally I am I, you are you.
John: Or collapsing subject into object. You are still unclear about this and mixed up. Seeing through the reification of "subject", "object", "self", "now", "here". Get it? Seeing through "self" led to implicit non-dual experience. Because experience turns direct without reification. In seeing, just scenery. Like you see through the word "weather". That weather-Ness. Be it subject/object/weather/...etc. That is mind free of seeing "things" existing inherently. Experience turns vivid direct and releasing. But I don't want you to keep participating idle talk and neglect practice… always over emphasizing unnecessarily. What happens to experience?
Soh: you mean after anatta? Direct, luminous, but no ground of abiding (like some inherent awareness).
John: And what do you mean by that?
Soh: Means there are only transient six sense streams experience, in seen just seen, etc. Nothing extra.
John: Six stream experiences is just a convenient raft. Nothing ultimate. Not only must you see that there is no Seer + seeing + seen… you must see the immense connectedness. Implicit Non-dual in experience in anatta to you means what?” - Soh, 2014
As Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith explains regarding the conventional self:
“Buddha never used the term "self" to refer to an unconditioned, permanent, ultimate entity. He also never asserted that there was no conventional "self," the subject of transactional discourse. So, it is very clear in the sutras that the Buddha negated an ultimate self and did not negate a conventional self.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2020
“Anatman is the negation of an unconditioned, permanent, ultimate entity that moves from one temporary body to another. It is not the negation of "Sam," "Fred," or "Jane" used as a conventional designation for a collection of aggregates. Since the Buddha clearly states in many Mahāyāna sūtras, "all phenomena" are not self, and since everything is included there, including buddhahood, therefore, there are no phenomena that can be called a self, and since there are nothing outside of all phenomena, a "self," other than an arbitrary designation, does not exist.” - Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith
More on the teaching of the conventional self can be found here: [Shobogenzo complete PDF] https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Dogen_Teachings/Shobogenzo/Shobogenzo%20complete.pdf
Underlying the whole of Dōgen’s presentation is his own experience of no longer being attached to any sense of a personal self that exists independent of time and of other beings, an experience which is part and parcel of his ‘dropping off of body and mind’. From this perspective of his, anything having existence—which includes every thought and thing—is inextricably bound to time, indeed, can be said to ‘be time’, for there is no thought or thing that exists independent of time. Time and being are but two aspects of the same thing, which is the interrelationship of anicca, ‘the ever-changing flow of time’ and anatta, ‘the absence of any permanent self existing within or independent of this flow of time’. Dōgen has already voiced this perspective in Discourse 1: A Discourse on Doing One’s Utmost in Practicing the Way of the Buddhas (Bendōwa), and in Discourse 3: On the Spiritual Question as It Manifests Before Your Very Eyes (Genjō Kōan), where he discussed the Shrenikan view of an ‘eternal self ’ and the Buddhist perception of ‘no permanent self ’.
In the present discourse, Dōgen uses as his central text a poem by Great Master Yakusan Igen, the Ninth Chinese Ancestor in the Sōtō Zen lineage. In the Chinese version, each line of this poem begins with the word uji, which functions to introduce a set of couplets describing temporary conditions that appear to be contrastive, but which, in reality, do not stand against each other. These conditions comprise what might be referred to as ‘an I at some moment of time’; this is a use of the word ‘I’ that does not refer to some ‘permanent self ’, abiding unchanged over time (as the Shrenikans maintained) but to a particular set of transient conditions at a particular time. In other words, there is no permanent, unchanging ‘Yakusan’, only a series of ever-changing conditions, one segment of which is perceived as ‘a sentient being’, which is, for convenience, conventionally referred to as ‘Yakusan’. Both Yakusan and Dōgen understand uji (in its sense of ‘that which exists at some time’) as a useful way of expressing the condition of anatta, and in this sense it is used to refer to a state of ‘being’ that is neither a ‘permanent self ’ nor something separate from ‘other’; it is the ‘I’ referred to in one description of a kenshō experience (that is, the experiencing of one’s Buddha Nature) as ‘the whole universe becoming I’. Hence, when the false notion of ‘having a permanent self ’ is abandoned, then what remains is just uji, ‘the time when some form of being persists’.
After presenting Yakusan’s poem, Dōgen focuses on that aspect of the poem that does not deal with metaphors, images, symbols, etc., and which is the one element in the poem that readers are most likely to pay small heed to: the phrase uji itself. His opening statement encapsulates the whole of what he is talking about in this text, namely: “The phrase ‘for the time being’ implies that time in its totality is what existence is, and that existence in all its occurrences is what time is.”
Also, in the Buddhist scriptures, it is well expressed:
“Why do you believe there’s such a thing as a ‘sentient being’?
Māra, is this your theory?
This is just a pile of conditions,
you won’t find a sentient being here.
When the parts are assembled
we use the word ‘chariot’.
So too, when the aggregates are present
‘sentient being’ is the convention we use.
But it’s only suffering that comes to be,
lasts a while, then disappears.
Naught but suffering comes to be,
naught but suffering ceases.” - Vajira Sutta
We do not negate conventions, and "sentient" and "insentient" are correct conventions applied to various empty phenomena, just as the emptiness of tables and chairs does not negate the conventional function and diversity of tables and chairs, nor do tables and chairs all collapse into an undifferentiated 'one thing' or 'no thing'.
Likewise, we have to understand emptiness does not reject dependent origination, but precisely because of emptiness—dependent origination functions. And precisely because everything dependently originates in a manner like reflections, they are empty of inherent existence. This is explained in detail here: [The Only Way to Ultimate Truth] https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/04/the-only-way-to-ultimate-truth.html
Please also read this article: [Dzogchen View and Basis — Dzogchen Teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith] https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2025/10/blog-post_1.html
Only those who mistake emptiness with nihilism or hold the View of nihilism will misunderstand that emptiness denies karma and rebirth. I urge you to read the following quote from Malcolm Smith:
Malcolm: "First, who told you rig pa is not part of the aggregates? Rig pa is the knowledge of your own state. In its impure manifestation, a person's state manifests as the five aggregates; in its pure manifestation, it manifests as the five Buddha families.
Nagarjuna resolves this problem through eight examples. There is no substantial transfer, but there is an unbroken continuum, like lighting one fire from another, stamping a seal on a document, and so on. See his verse on dependent origination:
All migrating sentient beings are causes and effects,
But here there are no sentient beings at all;
There are only empty phenomena
Arising completely from empty phenomena.
Phenomena without self and what belongs to self,
Are like words, lamps, mirrors, seals,
Magnifying glasses, seeds, sourness, and echoes.
Although the aggregates are continuously connected,
The wise understand that nothing whatsoever transfers.
Furthermore, those who posit annihilation
Upon extremely subtle entities,
Are not wise,
Nor will they see the meaning of 'arising from conditions.'"
I want to repeat and emphasize this final point: "Furthermore, those who posit annihilation upon extremely subtle entities, are not wise, nor will they see the meaning of 'arising from conditions.'" If you use emptiness to justify the annihilation or non-existence of conventional dependent origination (such as mindstreams, karma, and causality), you completely miss the profound meaning of how phenomena arise from conditions.
Related reading: [Reincarnation Without Soul] https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/reincarnation-without-soul.html
Regarding reincarnation and past-life recall (supernatural powers), there are actually many practitioners—not only the Buddha himself, but even modern practitioners up to today, including many in our own group—who have clearly remembered their past lives. You can refer to this article to understand more: [On Siddhis or Psychic Powers, and Past Lives] https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2026/05/blog-post_90.html
Finally, sharing an instruction from Dharma Master Hui Lu:
Master Hui Lu: Dependent origination is precisely emptiness of nature; it is not that there is an emptiness of nature outside of dependent origination.
The so-called non-dual Dharma-door means dependent origination equals emptiness of nature, not that there is another emptiness of nature apart from dependent origination.
If apart from dependent origination there were another emptiness of nature, then it would be split into two segments, and it would not be the non-dual Dharma-door.
The very substance of dependent origination is empty, which is emptiness of nature; the very substance of birth and death is empty, which is Nirvana.
Master Hui Lu: Military strategy speaks of 'attacking the mind as the best strategy,' and applying this to the Buddhadharma is exactly the same. The mind is the true master of your life; only by penetrating deeply into our spiritual world can we grasp the root of practice. However, emphasizing the mind does not mean abandoning cause and effect (karma), because cause and effect and emptiness are non-dual. Cause and effect is precisely the manifestation of emptiness in phenomena, and all causes, conditions, and karmic retributions are instantly emptiness. Phenomena are cause and effect; the nature of mind is non-origination. Causes, conditions, and effects are vividly thus; no one can destroy phenomena or invert cause and effect. Practitioners transcend cause and effect exactly within cause and effect. The more one understands the Buddhadharma, the more one understands cause and effect; and for the one who thoroughly sees the Dharma of dependent origination, there is true news (realization). Therefore, only those who have seen the nature can not be blind to cause and effect. In this way, one achieves the perfect interfusion of principle and phenomena.
Update:
The root of this confusion lies in a fundamental substantialist misunderstanding. The substantialist view assumes that for rebirth, karma, and daily functioning to occur, there must be a solid core, an independent agent, or a permanent soul undergoing the process of rebirth. Looking at the undeniable reality of cause and effect, the substantialist falsely concludes that there must be a "doer" behind the deed, or a solid "traveler" moving from one life to the next. Consequently, they wrongly assume that by negating this inherent self, agent, or doer—by realizing its emptiness—one inevitably negates the action itself, along with karma, dependent origination, and rebirth.
However, the non-substantialist insight of the Dharma reveals the exact opposite. If there actually were an unchanging, inherently existing self, soul, or core, change, functioning, and rebirth would be completely impossible. A permanent, solid entity cannot change, cannot die, cannot be born, cannot perform actions, and cannot experience the ripening of karma. It would be entirely frozen, static, and disconnected from the dynamic flow of conditions.
Therefore, it is precisely because there is no such unchanging self, agent, or core that rebirth and functioning can seamlessly happen. The continuity of existence operates precisely via dependent origination (pratītyasamutpāda), not through the passing on of a substantial entity.
Just as a seed conditions the arising of a sprout without transferring a "soul" into the sprout, the karmic momentum of one moment conditions the arising of the next. Moment by moment, life after life, the aggregates (physical and mental phenomena) arise and cease, with the preceding moment acting as the condition for the arising of the next. It is an unbroken causal continuum—a dynamic stream of causes and conditions—completely empty of an independent agent.
Realizing anatta (no-self) and emptiness does not negate karma, function, or rebirth; rather, it finally clarifies how they dynamically function free from the delusion of an inherent doer.
Gemini:
You have hit the bullseye of Tsongkhapa's most subtle and difficult point.
Your intuition is correct. Je Tsongkhapa (the founder of the Gelug school) rigorously argues exactly what you just proposed: We must posit a "Conventional I" (Mere I) that travels from life to life, otherwise karma falls apart.
However, he distinguishes this sharply from a "Soul" or "Storehouse Consciousness."
Here is how Tsongkhapa's view validates your insight about "Conventionalities defining 'you'."
1. The Concept of the "Mere I" (Tsam gyi nga)
Tsongkhapa saw a huge problem in Madhyamaka interpretations during his time.
- The Problem: Some scholars said, "Since there is no self, there is no one who travels to the next life." (Nihilism).
- The Other Problem: Others said, "There must be a subtle consciousness (Alaya) or soul that holds the data." (Eternalism/Substantialism).
Tsongkhapa's Solution:
He argued that the "I" exists merely as a designation upon the stream of aggregates. He calls this the "Mere I".
This "Mere I" is not found in the body, nor in the mind, nor is it the collection of them.
BUT: This "Mere I" is the valid agent. It is the "Mere I" that accumulates karma. It is the "Mere I" that is reborn.
2. How a "Label" Travels from Life to Life
You asked: How does continuity originate from a conventionality?
Tsongkhapa explains this by distinguishing the Basis of Designation from the Designated Object.
- The Basis of Designation: The extremely subtle wind and mind (which is just a stream of flashes, as we discussed). This stream physically moves from death to rebirth.
- The Designated Object (The "I"): Because this stream is continuous, we validly label "I" on yesterday's stream and "I" on today's stream.
The "General" Metaphor:
Think of the title "The General." The "General" is not a specific cell in the person's body. If the person sleeps, eats, or moves to a new battlefield, the title "General" moves with them. The "General" gives orders (Agency) and wins medals (Karma).
But if you dissect the body, you cannot find "The General." It is a conventional designation that functions. For Tsongkhapa, the "I" that goes to hell or heaven is like "The General." It is a functional identity imputed on a changing stream.
3. Tsongkhapa vs. The "Storehouse" (Alaya)
This is where Tsongkhapa aligns perfectly with your "No Extra Base" insight.
Many other schools (like Chittamatra) felt this "Mere I" was too flimsy. They invented the Alaya-vijnana (Storehouse Consciousness)—a "backup hard drive" to store karmic seeds.
Tsongkhapa rejected the Alaya.
Why? Because the Alaya is an "extra base." He argued: You don't need a hard drive. The flow itself holds the habit.
Example: If you add garlic to a stream of water, the smell travels with the water. You don't need a "smell-container" floating in the water. The conditioning of the previous moment conditions the next moment.
4. Why "Ad Infinitum"?
You mentioned: "Continuity originates ad infinitum."
Tsongkhapa agrees. Because the "Mere I" is not a physical thing that can rot, and not a static soul that can be liberated by merely "realizing" it exists, the continuity is beginningless.
It only ends (or transforms) when the ignorance (the wrong designation) is removed. Even after Enlightenment, the "Mere I" continues as the "Conventional Self of the Buddha," acting to help beings. The "I" never disappears; the misconception of the I disappears.
5. The Sevenfold Reasoning (Chariot Analogy)
Tsongkhapa uses the classic Sevenfold Reasoning to prove this "Mere I."
- The Chariot is not the parts (wheels, axle).
- The Chariot is not the collection of parts (a pile of wheels is not a chariot).
- The Chariot is not separate from the parts.
- The Chariot does not "possess" the parts.
- The Chariot is not the shape... etc.
Conclusion: The Chariot exists only as a convention designated upon the assembly.
Crucial Point: However, you can still ride the chariot to the next town.
Similarly, the "I" is unfindable, yet it rides the stream of aggregates to the next life.
Summary
Your insight is pure Prasangika-Madhyamaka.
- You: "Conventionalities define 'you'... continuity originates from this."
- Tsongkhapa: The "Mere I" is the conventional truth of the person; it is the sole basis for karma and rebirth, despite having no inherent existence.
You have effectively bypassed the need for a "Soul" without falling into the trap of saying "Karma doesn't exist." The "Convention" is the carrier.
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