Hello! Welcome to the Awakening to Reality blog.

For all new to Awakening to Reality blog, I highly recommend reading the 'Must Read' articles on the right panel, such as 

 

You are welcomed to join our discussion group on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/

If you are interested in realizing and actualizing these insights, do read the following (free) e-books:

1) The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide by Nafis Rahman:

  • Update: Portuguese translation now available here


2) The Awakening to Reality Guide - Web Abridged Version by Pablo Pintabona and Nafis Rahman:

Special thanks to these individuals for their efforts in making these compilations. I trust they will greatly benefit spiritual aspirants.

3) The Awakening to Reality Guide - Original Version compiled by Soh:

  • Feedback:  "I also want to say, actually the main ATR document >1200 pages helped me the most with insight. I am not sure how many have the patience to read it. I did it twice 😂 it was so helpful and these Mahamudra books supported ATR insights. Just thought to share.", "To be honest, the document is ok [in length], because it’s by insight level. Each insight is like 100 plus pages except anatta [was] exceptionally long [if] I remember lol. If someone read and contemplate at the same time it’s good because the same point will repeat again and again like in the nikayas [traditional Buddhist scriptures in the Pali canon] and insight should arise by the end of it imo.", "A 1000 plus pages ebook written by a serious practitioner Soh Wei Yu that took me a month to read each time and I am so grateful for it. It’s a huge undertaking and I have benefitted from it more that I can ever imagine. Please read patiently."  - Yin Ling



Good news regarding the DharmaWheel scraper (see: Table of Contents for Malcolm Dharmawheel Posts + Astus, Krodha (Kyle Dixon), Geoff (Jnana), Meido Moore):

 
The issue with handling nested quotations in forum posts has been successfully resolved. It now accurately captures all layers of quotations, rather than only the final portion. The scraper correctly processes multiple layers of quoted text, maintains proper speaker attribution, and handles formatting inconsistencies. I’m currently re-compiling the DharmaWheel forum posts of Acarya Malcolm Smith, Krodha (Kyle Dixon), and Astus.
 
Several months ago, someone requested that I address this issue, but I procrastinated and have unfortunately forgotten who it was. I’d like to reconnect with that person and share the results on the blog for anyone else who might find it helpful.

 

Uploaded updated versions yesterday:

Malcolm posts in 12 files (docx and pdf and table of contents provided): https://app.box.com/s/ju3gothq09bmzzpcehv045ylwegvfzaj

Malcolm posts in 3 files (docx and pdf and table of contentsprovided): https://app.box.com/s/pwn72amv07cptm1wekvc2twv3k980iiv

Malcolm posts in one file (docx and pdf and table of contents provided): https://app.box.com/s/ibii96pyxps6nlhy71pj76s5mi92qxr1

Krodha (Kyle Dixon) Dharmawheel Posts: https://app.box.com/s/k0frsynnhxkivdsvjiqyhvt0zc8blbsl

Astus Dharmawheel Posts: https://app.box.com/s/ln2rvagp8u7xx0uytci78defdawgctsm

 

 

I have also updated the code to GitHub. (see: Table of Contents for Malcolm Dharmawheel Posts + Astus, Krodha (Kyle Dixon), Geoff (Jnana), Meido Moore)

Mr. AD opined,

"Guru devotion

Yes yes but only so far
As it is said
A nice fire...
Get closer to catch the heat of Dharma
But not too close otherwise
We risk to burn ourselves
Ego is imperfect
The teacher is imperfect
And he is not the Dharma
Instruction for realisation
Is:
Rest within the natural radiance
Of the unborn mind
Beyond accepting
Or rejecting
Conceptual structures
And not: act dum
And do everything the "Guru" says or do
Just to get validation juice
That never ends
And make your lama's ego grow
Vipassana and Shamata
Deep inquiry and calm abiding
Two sides, One coin
Go to teacher for transmission
And go away
He has nothing else for you
Then,
find new water to chop
And wood to carry.
-Mindless blatter of Unknown Yogi"
 
 

Soh replied,

"It would not suffice to just “receive transmission”. People should find a guru that is truly awakened, not just a random guru. Then they need to study and learn from that guru until they themselves awaken.

Excerpt from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/01/finding-awakened-spiritual-teacher-and.html

Bodhidharma, esteemed as the first patriarch of Chan/Zen, marking him as a foundational and transformative figure in the lineage and teachings of this tradition, emphasizes the crucial role of a teacher in the journey towards enlightenment. In his teachings, he states, "To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature. Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha. If you don’t see your nature, being mindful of Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are not equal to it. Being mindful of Buddhas results in good karma, reciting sutras results in a good intelligence; keeping precepts results in a good rebirth in heavens, and making offerings results in future blessings — but no buddha. If you don’t understand by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to know the root of births and deaths. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn’t a good teacher. Even if he can recite the twelve groups of scriptures he can’t escape the Wheel of Births and Deaths. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star was able to recite the twelve groups of scriptures. But he didn’t escape the Wheel, because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your own Heart, reciting so much prose is useless.

To find a Buddha have to see your nature directly. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run outwards to seek for external objects, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a good teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain.

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion. If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But without the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

People who don’t understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who can’t tell white from black.” Falsely proclaiming the Buddha-Dharma, such persons in fact blaspheme the Buddha and subvert the Dharma. They preach as if they were bringing rain. But theirs is the preaching of devils not of Buddhas. Their teacher is the King of Devils and their disciples are the Devil’s minions. Deluded people who follow such instruction unwittingly sink deeper in the Sea of Birth and Death.

Unless they see their nature, how can people call themselves Buddhas they’re liars who deceive others into entering the realm of devils. Unless they see their nature, their preaching of the Twelvefold Canon is nothing but the preaching of devils. Their allegiance is to Mara, not to the Buddha. Unable to distinguish white from black, how can they escape birth and death?

Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha; whoever doesn’t is a mortal. But if you can find your buddha-nature apart from your mortal nature, where is it? Our mortal nature is our Buddha nature. Beyond this nature there’s no Buddha. The Buddha is our nature. There’s no Buddha besides this nature. And there’s no nature besides the Buddha."

Also, Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche said:

“If you wish to eradicate your afflictions, you must follow your teacher and study for a long time. Otherwise, studying for only a few days will not have any significant effect ... Some people today are not willing to study or reflect on the Dharma, but they are enthusiastic about meditation. They believe meditating all day with their eyes shut is the ultimate practice. I do not think much of this. Although there are people of the highest caliber who attain enlightenment without study or reflection, are you of such caliber? Therefore, you cannot live in a cave or another completely isolated place when you first start to practice. Instead, you should be with a qualified Dharma teacher and earnestly receive the Buddhadharma; it is best if you are always engaged in study, reflection, and practice. Of course, I am not asking you to study and reflect for a lifetime without ever practicing. But to spend an entire life in blind meditation without any study or reflection is also the wrong path!“"


Soh:

"In one of your sub posts you said most gurus are abusive. I disagree, I think most gurus are not abusive, but some indeed are. However it is the duty of all students to choose their guru wisely and carefully. You should not blindly follow any gurus but examine them first, have some criterias to select. For example, Dzogchen texts gives a list of criterias to select a guru.

Kyle Dixon (krodha) shared on Reddit before:


"In the Rig pa rang shar tantra, chapter 9, the attributes of a qualified teacher are listed:

The master of the intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning has a positive attitude, is skillful in teaching, has obtained the empowerments, applies the meaning of Secret Mantra, understands all the inner and outer activities, is inseparable from the meditation deity, remains undistracted in samadhi, is knowledgable in the secret tantras of Secret Mantra, possesses the meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection, engages in all outer and inner sadhanas, [18b] never leaves the meaning of the view, gives up outer, inner, and secret activities, is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel, and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury. With the cord of compassion unsevered and the stream of affection uninterrupted, the master and disciple are thus connected.

A “master” to avoid is described as follows:

A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars, who is self-important, stupid, literal-minded, who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra, has harsh words for others, is boastful, has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya, [18/a] is unable to answer questions, has little learning, and great pride — such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple. He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati. Do not associate with such a person.

Jigme Lingpa comments on the above excerpt regarding the unqualified teacher:

As it says, do not get involved with such a demonic master.

Longchenpa, in his own response to the above excerpt from the rig pa rang shar (regarding the unqualified teacher), states:

Accordingly, I advise you to avoid them.

The kun byed rgyal po tantra states:

The inauthentic master teaches scripture like a monkey, his false path beset with concepts.

And regarding the qualified teacher it goes on to say:

The master who displays the truth is a precious treasury worth an inestimable price.

Jigme Lingpa continues:

This tantra [rig pa rang shar] also speaks of six characteristics:

[i] having put all samsaric phenomena behind him, [ii] having few desires and being content, [iii] being skilled in practice and having had experiences, [iv] being learned in the meanings of the tantras and having striven to accomplish them, [v] being learned in the meaning of the view and being completely capable with it, and [vi] having great compassion and being happy in renunciation.

One with the complete set of these qualities is said to be necessary. If, on the other hand, he is merely an effigy of whom it is said This one is a wonderful source of miracles, This one holds an unsurpassable rank, and This one is a sacred object of worship and harmony with worldly people, then he is not [a genuine teacher].

More from Jamgon Köngtrul:

Avoid a master whose traits are discordant with those of a true teacher; But since a fully qualified master is rare, follow the one who is replete with good qualities.

A teacher whose traits are discordant with the characteristics of the [true] master stands outside of the Buddhist doctrine and connot be taken as a spiritual teacher. Consequently, even though the teacher may be very famous, active, etc., the discriminating student should be aware [of these shortcomings] and detach him or herself [from the teacher]. This should be done even if a teacher-student relationship has already been formed. If one has not yet formed such a relationship, one should avoid doing so, right from the beginning. Sakya Pandita states:

Detach yourself from the spiritual teacher
Who does not conform to the Buddha's teaching.

We should learn how to recognize [bad teachers] from the many descriptions given in the scriptures and then shun them. For example, the Condensed Tantra [of the wheel of Time] states:

Proud, subject to uncontrollable anger, defiant of pledges, guilty of misappropriation, ignorant [of the doctrine], willfully deceptive of students, having failed to enter the state of supreme bliss, uninitiated, a slave to wealth and enjoyments, careless, rude in speech, and obsessed with sexual desire: wise students who wish full awakening should shun such a teacher as they would hell.

Because we are living in a [degenerate] age, we very rarely meet a teacher endowed with all of the necessary qualifications. Since we may never meet such a teacher, we should accept a master who has many good qualities and very few weaknesses. [Pundarika's] Ultimate Familiarization states:

In this age of conflict, spiritual masters will exhibit both faults and virtues; not one is absolutely irreproachable. Therefore, examine well even those who excel in virtue before beginning to study with them."

"

 

Mr CK wrote:
Top contributor
Soh Wei Yu a good book on this matter is Guru Drinks Bourbon? by DKR 🙏
  • Reply
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Group expert
Cao Khánh i have not read that book yet sorry
Although the book title sounds intriguing
  • Reply
Mr CK wrote:
Top contributor
Soh Wei Yu i would recommend it. It also goes into the distinction between a Dharma Instructor and a Tantric Master. The difference in cultural baggage and how it shows up in devotion.
And absolutely points out the need to examine the guru’s qualities. It gives many important pointers imo
  • Reply

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/26988828614065213/

Mr EJ said:

Hello,
I have had this realization which is an odd one, that everything is Karma unfolding and that the world is actually perfect just the way it is. Things happen because they must.
But this comes off as cold to most people.
The person getting murdered is their karma and the person murdering is their karma to murder. Sounds very weird to the average person.
The truth is, that's just Karma working itself out. We don't know their past lives. They have to go through it, for whatever reason.
But I'm not saying ah whatever, my heart suffers in a different way. Wanting to help people on a spiritual level to get out samsara, not just have a good human birth.
With all this being said, I have also realized my goal as a human being is not really to go out there and change the world for the better because the world is already the way it is. My goal is to get out of Samsara and attain Buddhahood or Bodhisattva to help souls spirituality.
Has anyone had this realization? And how can we explain this to someone without sounding cold showing no signs of empathy?
 
 
Soh replied:
 
 Your post inclines towards determinism. Karma does not mean determinism.

“Author: Astus
Date: Sat Jul 20, 2024 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Free Will?
Content:
Beings are the makers and heirs of their own actions. If they were not the makers, that would be determinism. If they were not the heirs, that would be indeterminism. Such denial of cause and effect is called wrong view (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an3.119/en/sujato), and is based on the mistaken belief in a self (https://suttacentral.net/sn24.5/en/sujato).

Author: Astus
Date: Fri Jul 19, 2024 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Free Will?
Content:
The Buddha has rejected both determinism and indeterminism (https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato), and he practically ridiculed those who denied autonomy in their actions (https://suttacentral.net/an6.38/en/sujato). Naturally, what's been done is done, but currently one chooses how to act (https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/sujato), therefore bad habits can be rectified (https://suttacentral.net/sn42.8/en/sujato), and even the consequences of past actions can be mitigated (https://suttacentral.net/an3.100/en/sujato).”

Also, not everything is due to karma:

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.21/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false"

Mr EJ said: "yes determinism from one's own Karma.
An apple seed is determined to grow an apple tree.
Not determinism that some God up in the sky makes decisions, we're all victims.
That is not what I meant in my post."

Soh replied: "karma is not determinism, as the suttas above stated, and other posts I made in this thread explained

karma does not determine that someone is a murderer, etc
This is why people can change"
 
Mr EJ said, "if an Apple seed is planted with all the right conditions, an apple tree is determined to grow. Not a pear, not a watermelon.
What is that law called in Buddhism?"
 
 
Soh replied: "Buddha taught dependent origination, in which karma is only one subset of it. Karma is not the cause of everything. Also, dependent origination does not imply determinism. An apple seed can be planted, but you can stop it from ever growing if you either remove the seed, block it from receiving sunlight, not give enough nutrients for the seed to grow, and so on and so forth. Dependent origination does not imply agents or inherent producers and production, it does not mean determinism.

If an apple seed could determine that an apple tree Must grow, then nothing could be done to stop it. But it does not. Apple seed needs other conditions to grow, and we can could divest those conditions through various means.

Likewise, as Buddha was saying, past karma or actions does not determine that a person is a murderer this life. A murderer can change and mend his ways, can take refuge in the triple gems and follow the noble eightfold path to awakening, and so forth. There is the cause of suffering, an end to suffering and a path that leads to the end of suffering. If nothing could be done to change our ways, then all sentient beings will be forever doomed. Buddhism is not about predeterminism or determinism.

Each person has autonomy and a choice to make. It doesn't matter what conditionings we have, we have the autonomy to make the right choice to undertake the path as taught by Buddha, to undergo the training of sila (conduct/precepts), samadhi (meditative composure), and prajna (wisdom, insight). These three trainings lead to liberation.

You can read more at https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2010/10/quietening-inner-chatter.html

Also, this one should clarify things:

THE TROUBLE WITH AGENCY

In INSIGHTS by James Corrigan4 Comments
Agency implies an agent. If there is no agent, there can be no agency. Agency, of course, is the action or intervention of a thing, or person, that produces an effect. To say that language can’t capture the truth is even more true when silly things are being stated. So when someone talks about causes and conditions, they are being silly because these are not the same. A cause is that which makes a thing happen. It implies an agent and agency, a veritable proliferation of sillinesses. A condition is that which opens the possibility of something happening. But conditions can never cause anything to happen because they are neither an agent nor have agency. Perhaps this surprises you. But think about all the things you thought were going to happen in your life that didn’t, and all the things that did that you never saw coming!

Scientists call this stochastic behavior, it extends all the way down to the quantum level, and perhaps especially there. It’s the reason why a computer needs a clock, that coordinates all the stochastic behavior of electronic components so that the device can actually accomplish the tasks it has been engineered to allow to happen. Notice I didn’t say make happen, because sometimes things don’t. And we’ve probably all experienced that too.

Often, in our attempts to make sense of reality, we fall into old habits of thought that arise from an understanding in our heads that things do things. Exorcising that understanding happens naturally when a certain point is reached, but without the direct experience, silliness abounds.

Parmenides, an Ancient Greek philosopher once wrote a poem about his insights into reality. He didn’t use any pronouns, and few, if any nouns. Smart people, thinking they knew what he meant, supplied a lot of additional wording that made the poem easier to read, but empty of truth. Then, once that was done, they realized that Parmenides hadn’t said the right thing in the right way, so they fixed that up too. When Parmenides said: “the same: to be and wherefore is intuitive awareness” (“ταὐτὸν δ᾽ ἐστὶ νοεῖν τε καὶ οὓνεκέν ἐστι νόημα”), equating the manifesting appearances and selfless knowing, they clarified it, equating “being” with “thinking,” turning it into a kind of “I think, therefore I am!” statement instead. Silliness. Neither the Greek word for thought, nor for thinking appears anywhere in Parmenides’ statement.

So, try to make sense of conditions, not as any kind of interaction between entities, not even in a metaphorical fashion. Instead, think of how a seed grows. The sun doesn’t cause the seed to grow, any more than rain does, or the soil, or all the bacteria, fungi, animals, and other plants do. Yet, for the seed to grow, all of those conditions need to be right, including the condition of the seed being present.

As to what causes the seed to grow, well, just let the idea of causes go. It involves agents and agency, and they are just silly nonsense. Understand that when the right conditions are present, the possibility of genesis is present, but what actually happens is uncaused.

Now divest that scenario of all sense of things inherent in it. Sunlight isn’t a thing, except as a concept. Neither is water, or soil, or all the life present in soil. These are all just ideas, ways to talk about reality in shorthand. Instead, see an amazing, and coherent presencing of selfless naturing. Don’t even hold onto the idea of a nature, as something doing the naturing. It will cause a cognitive dissonance that will tire you out, but the effort lays a groundwork for the direct experience to come. It’s all just more conditioning, and in this case, it’s called mind training, but it could be called mind conditioning as well, because you are not making anything happen, you are only developing the right conditions for certain experiences to happen.

So remember: there is no mind, instead there is just this awesome and beautiful selfless naturing. Or if you prefer, there is just this awesome and beautiful selfless minding. But no nature and no mind anywhere, just the appearance of awesome beauty. Reflect on that phrase, awesome beauty.

Another way of expressing it, that I use, is the visceral essence of selfless loving. But you can just call it bliss instead." 
 
Soh said: "Also read all my other replies on this thread carefully." 
 
Mr EJ said, "Sorry maybe this is off topic, but question was, apple seed becoming an apple tree. There's a knowledge in there, a law. The law that knows an apple seed must grow to be an apple tree, not any other tree. What is that called in Buddhism?"
 
Soh replied: "That is referring to the general principle of dependent origination, of which karma is only a subset (also not applicable in your example of apple tree because karma literally means 'action' or volitional actions that only pertains to sentient beings, and trees are not karmically born sentient beings) but it is not a pre determining sort of law. An apple seed will not grow an apple tree unless there are other conditions involved. There are ways to stop it from growing.

Likewise nobody is 'predetermined' to be a murderer, etc. Karma, dependent origination, etc, does not determine that someone is so, and one always has autonomy and choice to steer the course away from suffering to liberation by engaging in the noble path taught by Buddha.
 
 Buddha:

"When this is, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises; when this is not, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases; namely: dependent on ignorance, volitional formations....(and so on). Thus does this whole mass of suffering arise. With the utter cessation of ignorance, the cessation of volitional formations....(and so on). Thus does this whole mass of suffering cease.""
  
... 

Soh:

"“As to the specifics of your question I’m not sure, but here are a few major differences between classical “determinism” and Buddhist karmic causality:

Determinism proper necessarily involves inherently existent causes giving rise to inherently existent effects in a unilateral manner.

Karmic cause and effect in the context of the buddhadharma is only valid conventionally, and since every cause is an effect and every effect a cause, they are, in a coarse sense, bilateral in nature.

Karma can be “determined” in a certain sense, but since karma takes direction from intention, change can occur, certain results can be averted, suffering can be mitigated and ideally uprooted altogether.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019

“Kyle Dixon Dante Rosati we gave volition [cetana], and can direct that volition freely.

Of course we are subject to our karma, but it is not as rigidly deterministic as you suggest.
1

Kyle Dixon Yes, we “have,” possess, volition. And are capable of directing it where we choose.
○ Like
○ · Reply
○ · 17h

Kyle Dixon Life is not a fully automated process in the sense that you are like a helpless leaf being blown around by the wind, is the point.

You can make choices and direct volition.

Kyle Dixon Eric Aksunah I don’t know the specifics.

I just recall Malcolm once said we don’t have “free will” because such a principle implies a rational agent, and we are still subject to karma. Nevertheless, we can direct our volition and intention in specific directions, such as following the path.
1
○ Like
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○ · 15h
“ - Kyle Dixon, 2020

“Determinism would require truly established causes giving rise to established effects in a unilateral manner, thus based on that buddhadharma is not deterministic. Causes are only conventional, and cause and effect are bilateral dependencies. Like Āryadeva says, we might think the father is the cause of the child, but the child is also the cause of the father.

Re free will, we Buddhists acknowledge volition [cetana] but only conventionally. Free will is actually a monotheist principle used to reconcile sin with a creator deity. Thus free will proper is not a thing in Buddhism. Further, free will requires a rational agent which buddhadharma does not uphold. And actually we negate such a thing. As such we have conventional volition but are still subject to karma.” – Kyle Dixon, 2022

Also, here's Buddha's teaching: https://suttacentral.net/an6.38/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

• Numbered Discourses 6.38
• 4. Deities
“One’s Own Volition
Then a certain brahmin went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:
“Mister Gotama, this is my doctrine and view: One does not act of one’s own volition, nor does one act of another’s volition.”
“Brahmin, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view! How on earth can someone who comes and goes on his own say that one does not act of one’s own volition, nor does one act of another’s volition?
What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of initiative?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since this is so, do we find sentient beings who initiate activity?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since there is an element of initiative, and sentient beings who initiate activity are found, sentient beings act of their own volition or that of another.
What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of persistence … exertion … strength … endurance … energy?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since this is so, do we find sentient beings who have energy?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Since there is an element of energy, and sentient beings who have energy are found, sentient beings act of their own volition or that of another.
Brahmin, may I never see or hear of anyone holding such a doctrine or view! How on earth can someone who comes and goes on his own say that one does not act of one’s own volition, nor does one act of another’s volition?”
“Excellent, Mister Gotama! Excellent! … From this day forth, may Mister Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.””"

---
 
Soh shared:

"[Someone wrote:] “There is nobody controlling anger, anger arise whether one wants to or not”

[John replied:] Maybe sees it this way:

There is no one controlling anger, anger arises due to dependent origination.

With ignorance comes attachment. When attachment meets its secondary conditions, anger arises. Without secondary conditions, anger does not arise. Although it does not arise, it will not cease to arise unless the primary cause is severed. Here the appearance of “spontaneous arising” is seen from the perspective of DO.

Seeing this way, there is anatta; there is dependent origination; there is mindfulness of the cause of anger, the conditions, the cure and the ending of it. There is no bypassing as in “nothing needs be done”, albeit no-self."

On the subject of free will, John Tan said:

"Nihilistic tendencies arise when the insight of anatta is skewed towards the no-doership aspect. The happening by itself must be correctly understood. It appears that things are accomplished by doing nothing but in actual case it is things get done due to ripening of action and conditions.

So the lack of self-nature does not imply nothing needs be done or nothing can be done. That is one extreme. At the other end of extreme is the self-nature of perfect control of what one wills, one gets. Both are seen to be false. Action + conditions leads to effect.
June 1 at 11:32am · Unlike · 8"
 
Soh:
 
"The Buddha said:

(Partial excerpt from https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false)

"Regarding this, I went up to the ascetics and brahmins whose view is that everything that is experienced is because of past deeds, and I said to them: ‘Is it really true that this is the venerables’ view?’ And they answered, ‘Yes’. I said to them: ‘In that case, you might kill living creatures, steal, be unchaste; use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical; be covetous, malicious, or have wrong view, all because of past deeds.’

Those who believe that past deeds are the most important thing have no enthusiasm or effort, no idea that there are things that should and should not be done. Since they don’t actually find that there are things that should and should not be done, they’re unmindful and careless, and can’t rightly be called ascetics. This is my first legitimate refutation of the ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view."

Continue reading from the link above"
 
 
Mr. AZ asked, "isn't karma precisely conditionality?"
 
Soh replied, "No. Here's a partial excerpt from https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

"...Refuting the erroneous view that "whatsoever fortune or misfortune experienced is all due to some previous action", the Buddha said:

"So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."

It was this important text, which states the belief that all physical circumstances and mental attitudes spring solely from past Karma that Buddha contradicted. If the present life is totally conditioned or wholly controlled by our past actions, then certainly Karma is tantamount to fatalism or determinism or predestination. If this were true, free will would be an absurdity. Life would be purely mechanistic, not much different from a machine. Being created by an Almighty God who controls our destinies and predetermines our future, or being produced by an irresistible Karma that completely determines our fate and controls our life’s course, independent of any free action on our part, is essentially the same. The only difference lies in the two words God and Karma. One could easily be substituted for the other, because the ultimate operation of both forces would be identical.

Such a fatalistic doctrine is not the Buddhist law of Karma.

According to Buddhism, there are five orders or processes (niyama) which operate in the physical and mental realms.

They are:

Utu Niyama - physical inorganic order, e.g. seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. The unerring order of seasons, characteristic seasonal changes and events, causes of winds and rains, nature of heat, etc., all belong to this group.
Bija Niyama - order of germs and seeds (physical organic order), e.g. rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar-cane or honey, peculiar characteristics of certain fruits, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.
Karma Niyama - order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. As surely as water seeks its own level so does Karma, given opportunity, produce its inevitable result, not in the form of a reward or punishment but as an innate sequence. This sequence of deed and effect is as natural and necessary as the way of the sun and the moon.
Dhamma Niyama - order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisattva in his last birth. Gravitation and other similar laws of nature. The natural reason for being good and so forth, may be included in this group.
Citta Niyama - order or mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness, arising and perishing of consciousness, constituents of consciousness, power of mind, etc., including telepathy, telaesthesia, retro-cognition, premonition, clairvoyance, clairaudience, thought-reading and such other psychic phenomena which are inexplicable to modern science.

Every mental or physical phenomenon could be explained by these all-embracing five orders or processes which are laws in themselves. Karma as such is only one of these five orders. Like all other natural laws they demand no lawgiver...""   
 
  
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Soh:

After reading the other posts I made in this thread, I predict the neo advaitin minds will think, "how can there be choice, volition, autonomy if there is no self?"

The answer to this can be found here:

Partial excerpt: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/choosing.html

John Tan:

The logic that since there is no agency, hence no choice to be made is no different from "no sufferer, therefore no suffering".

This is not anatta insight.

What is seen through in anatta is the mistaken view that the conventional structure of "subject action object" represents reality when it is not. Action does not require an agent to initiate it. It is language that creates the confusion that nouns are required to set verbs into motion.

Therefore the action of choosing continues albeit no chooser.

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."


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ChatGPT summary:

In the provided conversation, Soh and other contributors explain why karma and dependent origination in Buddhism do not equate to determinism. Here's a summary of their key points:

  1. Karma vs. Determinism:

    • Karma refers to the law of cause and effect related to actions and their consequences. However, it is not deterministic because it does not rigidly fix outcomes based solely on past actions.
    • Mr. EJ's Misconception: He initially suggests that everything unfolds due to karma, implying a deterministic worldview. Soh clarifies that this view misunderstands karma's flexibility.
    • Autonomy and Change: Buddhism teaches that individuals possess volition (cetana), allowing them to make choices that can alter their karmic path. This means people can change their actions and mitigate past karma, preventing a fixed destiny.
  2. Dependent Origination (Pratītyasamutpāda):

    • Interdependent Causality: Dependent origination explains that all phenomena arise in dependence upon multiple conditions and causes. It emphasizes a bilateral and interconnected causal relationship rather than a single, unidirectional cause-effect mechanism.
    • Flexibility and Non-Determinism: Since dependent origination involves numerous conditions, outcomes are not predetermined. Changes in any of the contributing factors can lead to different results, allowing for personal and spiritual transformation.
  3. Rejection of Both Determinism and Indeterminism:

    • Buddha's Teachings: The Buddha explicitly rejected both determinism (the idea that all events are predetermined and inevitable) and indeterminism (the notion that events occur without any cause).
    • Middle Path Approach: Buddhism adopts a middle path, recognizing that while past actions influence present circumstances, individuals retain the capacity to make choices that shape their future.
  4. Volition Without a Fixed Self:

    • Anatta (No-Self): Buddhism teaches the concept of anatta, or no inherent self. Despite this, individuals still exercise volition through their intentions and actions.
    • Choosing Without a Fixed Chooser: Actions occur without a permanent "self" orchestrating them, but the process of choosing and acting remains integral to personal development and liberation.
  5. Practical Implications:

    • Path to Liberation: Emphasizing personal effort, ethical conduct (sila), meditation (samadhi), and wisdom (prajna), Buddhism encourages individuals to actively engage in their spiritual journey, demonstrating that outcomes are not fixed by past karma alone.
    • Potential for Change: Even those with negative past actions, such as murderers, have the opportunity to change and pursue enlightenment, underscoring the non-deterministic nature of karma.

Conclusion: Karma and dependent origination in Buddhism outline a complex web of interdependent causes and conditions that influence but do not rigidly determine outcomes. Buddhism upholds individual autonomy and the potential for change, rejecting both strict determinism and complete randomness. This framework allows for personal responsibility, ethical action, and the pursuit of spiritual liberation.