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Also See: Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
Aditya Prasad
André A. Pais Curious, how does this map onto the AtR model (in your view)?
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Edited
André A. Pais
Aditya Prasad probably it doesn't. It can be read as merely pointing to I Am.
Yet if we get more creative, we can see I Am (identification with consciousness), but also non-dual (phenomena being one with consciousness, and consciousness itself being one with the absolute).
Finally we can see that notions of consciousness or phenomena are designated out of the absolute, which is nothing but appearance and emptiness. The absolute ground is luminous empty appearances, which is designated as consciousness, phenomena, etc.
I shared recently the simplified version of the AtR model (I am, non-dual, anatta, shunyata) with John and he said that all that has been clear for him for quite a while.
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1d
Aditya Prasad
André A. Pais I must admit that I don't yet understand the distinction between consciousness and awareness (or the absolute). I think of luminosity as another label for consciousness.
As for the simplified model being clear to John, what do you mean? Are there aspects there that aren't covered in AtR? (I've read it a few times and love it BTW, if it's the one I'm thinking of. I might ask you questions about it later...)
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1d
André A. Pais
Aditya Prasad by John I mean John Wheeler. 😅
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1d
Soh Wei Yu
André A. Pais he isn't clear even though he thought so. He went through I AM, then impersonality (he calls 'no self'), then one mind sort of nondual. Closer to Thusness Stage 4. He is clear about 1 to 4 but not 5 and onwards.
Session Start: Tuesday, January 20, 2009
(7:54 PM) AEN:
john wheeler: "i found that it is turned into a practice, the notion of the practice or attainment is based on the assumption that u have separated from the natural being itself. Essentially you find that the notion that arise that you stand separate from the being, and that becomes the basis of all the troubles. You can't be a seeker or a sufferer, or have a question or a doubt or a problem as
that pure non conceptual presence, and so that root of all of that activity is the assumption that I have moved apart from that, that I have somehow stood apart from pure being itself. When we question that to basically look and see, have I separated from that? Have I moved away from the pure awareness itself, however we want to point to that... to see if there is any evidence that there has
been any actual separation, and what we find is the exact same insight that we saw originally... all that we discover is our identity as that pure being itself. Exactly like you say, we don't find anything, we find that the assumed separation isn't real, hasn't happened."
(8:05 PM) AEN: -- from an mp3
(8:05 PM) AEN: "....At this point you can dispense with making a division between thoughts and awareness. That is good in the beginning as a means to make awareness evident. However, from another angle, thoughts, feelings and perceptions arise from, exist upon and subside into awareness. They have no real substance or independent existence apart from awareness. So they are only awareness
(8:06 PM) AEN: appearing as those forms, like waves emerging from the sea. It is all one substance. There is only one awareness, one presence. There is no separation possible, because there is no division in reality. There are no objects in ultimate truth, only awareness. There is
no one standing apart from that. Everything that appears is only that. All thoughts and feelings are only that. All is that. You are that. So what can you gain and lose at any time?" -- "You Were Never Born", John Wheeler
Session Start: Wednesday, January 21, 2009
(10:40 AM) Thusness: What John Wheeler said is quite true but only from the point of view of non-dual. Therefore it is insight that liberates. There are 2 important insights about our nature, one being non-dual and the other being the empty nature. John Wheeler is more about non-dual but our emptiness nature are equally important. In whatever case, both insights must lead a practitioner towards effortlessness
(10:41 AM) Thusness: and spontaneity as non-dual luminosity and emptiness are the nature of pristine awareness
(10:51 AM) Thusness: What John Wheeler said in the mp3 is good. After that realisation, practitioner realises it is insight that liberates and there is never a separation but the practitioner must also realised the power of the bond. Like a magical spell that blinds us from seeing the truth of our nature. This 'strength' if overlooked is equally misleading. One can teach and device a method like Dzogchen to
(10:54 AM) Thusness: experience whatever arises openly and fearlessly as all is Awareness but to deny the 'strength' of the bond and over-emphasis that nothing need to be done is very misleading. Just like reality is not what it seems to be but there is no denial of reality,
(10:56 AM) Thusness: after non-dual insight, the way of practice is pathless; it does not mean there is no practice needed.
Session Start: Friday, 20 November, 2009
...
(2:01 PM) AEN: btw i dun really understand. is john wheeler's realisation about impersonality or is it about no-self and whats the diff 😛
(2:21 PM) Thusness: John wheeler realized certain aspect of no-self
(2:21 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:21 PM) Thusness: Not anatta but close to phase 4
(2:21 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:22 PM) Thusness: The sense of dualism is still there
(2:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:22 PM) Thusness: Because he will not be able to integrate the transient
(2:23 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:23 PM) Thusness: He can however realize he is lived by a greater life
(2:24 PM) AEN: icic.. is that what u mean by feeling God
(2:24 PM) Thusness: All manifestations is the doing of this One life
(2:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:25 PM) AEN: eckhart tolle said "Many expressions that are in common usage, and sometimes the structure of language itself, reveal the fact that people don't know who they are. You say: "He lost his life" or "my life," as if life were something that you can possess or lose. The truth is: you don't have a life, you are life. The One Life, the one consciousness that pervades the entire universe and takes temporary form to experience itself as a stone or blade of grass, as an animal, a person, a star or a galaxy.
Can you sense deep within that you already know that? Can you sense that you already are That?"
(2:25 PM) Thusness: This One Life is same to u as well as me.
(2:25 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:26 PM) Thusness: This is a very subtle extrapolation
(2:27 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:27 PM) Thusness: But experientially it does appears so
(2:27 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:28 PM) Thusness: It has a lot to do with the spontaneous arising and impersonality (deconstruction of personality)
(2:29 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:31 PM) Thusness: Therefore when one focus and refine the 4 aspects i spoke abt without even arising the insight of non-dual, one can still lead to such an experience
This is stage 2
(2:31 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:31 PM) Thusness: Get it?
(2:31 PM) AEN: ya think so
(2:32 PM) AEN: so stage 2 is related to impersonality?
(2:33 PM) Thusness: Further to that one will want to penetrate into 3.
(2:34 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:34 PM) Thusness: Re-read phase one to 3
(2:34 PM) AEN: ok
(2:35 PM) Thusness: Phase 4 is strictly non-dual
(2:35 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:35 PM) Thusness: Though non-dual still having inherent view
(2:37 PM) Thusness: So a practitioner still does not see the truth of the relative
The absolute still seem special
(2:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:38 PM) Thusness: That is One Mind
(2:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:40 PM) AEN: The "vision" of truth appears new because it was not noticed before. Whatever we are and the world is, is already the fact. There is no attainment involved in being what you are. That is the constant space of life, awareness or being in which all appears. It includes silence and sound, activity and stillness, form and emptiness, knowledge and ignorance, and all other dualities and opposites. Your natural condition is not a state within the appearances but the spacious heart of reality which contains and embraces them all. It is like a bright mirror in which diverse reflections rise and set. The mirror remains as it is and bears no relation to the presence or absence of its reflections. The mirror cannot be limited by or identified with any of the reflections appearing in it, nor does it grasp or resist them. For their part, the reflections have no substance or independent nature apart from the mirror. In the same way, all that is, was or ever will be is contained in the timeless light of your true nature. The strange and wonderful thing is that this has always been so.
If this is not noticed, it gets pointed out and recognized, and the true perspective is restored. It is as simple as that. - john wheeler
this is like One Mind?
(2:44 PM) AEN: btw i just remembered a talk given by ven shen kai in the early 80s where he described about how one dissolves the self into the universe substance that is no different from all the buddhas... like the self dissolve and merge into space... and that while he was doing puja he totally dissolved into a place far away but later got back. but later he dissolved again. i think he's sort of like describing stage 3 right?
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13m
Soh Wei Yu
(2:45 PM) AEN: i think i sent u that mp3 before long ago
(2:47 PM) Thusness: In phase 4, a practitioner will be obsessed with this substratum in a non-dual context.
(2:48 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:51 PM) Thusness: U must understand phase 5-7 is refining the insight of the same experience of 4
(2:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:56 PM) Thusness: U so clearly see that non-dual is implicit as there never is any agent apart from the ongoing phenomenality
(2:57 PM) AEN: icic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness: Then u realized the true meaning of anatta and emptiness
(2:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(2:57 PM) Thusness: And move from disassociation to self liberation
(2:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(3:00 PM) Thusness: Seems like talking to different practitioners help u understand the 7 phases but don't make it as an absolute model.
(3:00 PM) AEN: oic..
...
2010:
Session Start: Wednesday, 10 March, 2010
(12:22 PM) AEN: i think last time john wheeler talk about the i am/being/witness, then in the recent book he changed alot and talked about 'beyond consciousness', beyond the being and the witness, and he said "Consciousness appears as a transient state on your original condition. It is intimately tied to the presence of the
(12:23 PM) AEN: body-mind, which reflects the light of awareness, allowing consciousness to manifest in a tangible way.'
the presence of the body-mind is a necessary requirement for consciousness to manifest and for awareness to become aware that it is. Just as sunlight and reflected sunlight are really not two separate things, neither are non-dual awareness and manifested consciousness actually different.
(12:23 PM) AEN: You are that which was present before consciousness appeared on you. Before consciousness appeared, you were, but you did not know yourself or have any sense of existence. That is the absolute, non-dual or perfect state.
(12:26 PM) AEN: ...If consciousness is only a modification of the absolute, non-dual reality, then consciousness as such does not truly exist, since it has no actual independent nature. Consciousness appears but it has never truly existed as an independent reality. All there is, is the unconditioned, absolute, non-dual source. That absolute reality is all there is, and it is all that we have ever been. There has never been anything else except this. http://www.non-dualitypress.com/.../The%20Light%20Behind...
(12:46 PM) AEN: seeker posted in DhO haha http://www.dharmaoverground.org/.../messag.../message/392145
(6:17 PM) Thusness: Yes. John Wheeler is beginning to realize 'transience'
(6:17 PM) AEN: but he still talks about an eternal absolute beyond consciousness a bit confusing
(6:19 PM) Thusness: yes
(6:19 PM) AEN: "Consciousness is duality itself. You are prior to consciousness, prior to being, prior to presence, prior to the knower, prior to stillness."
(6:20 PM) Thusness: yes
(6:20 PM) Thusness: i told u before there is a desync of view and experience
(6:21 PM) Thusness: it is difficult to arise insight and one will rest in the non-conceptuality personifying it into an ultimate source
(6:22 PM) Thusness: seems to be a struggle to realize the nature of the transient who is seeker?
(6:22 PM) AEN: i dunnu.. never knew him b4. oic
(6:22 PM) Thusness: i din see the nick 'seeker'
(6:22 PM) Thusness: in dho
(6:23 PM) AEN: ya but Teck Cheong Han and seeker writing style the same 😛
(6:24 PM) Thusness: so u guess one ah
(6:24 PM) AEN: ya lol
(6:24 PM) AEN: anyway he also talked about the same things
(6:25 PM) Thusness: yes
(6:27 PM) AEN: btw i think i know john wheeler suddenly changed, i remember before he wrote that book many months back i sent him a link to the six stages, then inside there, longchen commented on john wheeler's article:
This is not exactly true... He sees presences as separate from thoughts...
What he percieved is thru 'the eternal witness' or pure observer... which is a very subtle witnessing... or 'cross referencing'.
This pure observer is also within the flow... it is not unchanging...In fact, it is changing all the time... in the stream too...so to speak
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/210722...
(6:27 PM) AEN: then in the book he wrote about the witness and consciousness being transient also
(6:31 PM) Thusness: the right view is just a pointer
(6:31 PM) Thusness: because the mind is unable to see clearly the nature of reality
(6:32 PM) Thusness: the dualistic mind either sees only the mirror or is lost in the images of the appearances
(6:32 PM) Thusness: it cannot see the nature of the appearances
(6:33 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:35 PM) Thusness: first have the experience of non-dual and further deconstruct all the mental constructs (self, objects and prepositional phrases "in/out, here/there..etc")
then later u begin to realize what is meant by 'inherent' in Buddhism
(6:37 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:39 PM) Thusness: many of the 'Awareness practices' tend to teach non-duality by disassociation. This is not non-dual, direct approach.
(6:42 PM) Thusness: Only through the realization of the anatta nature of the transient can a practitioner sees the 'pathless path'
(6:43 PM) Thusness: and this implies realizing that the transient is the very Reality that is non-dual, luminous yet empty.
(6:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:46 PM) Thusness: if u cannot understand the transient in the way that is presented by Peter Fenner, then u will why do we stressed so much about the transient
(6:48 PM) Thusness: if u see that there is truly no coming/going, here/there, in/out in manifestation, then u being realize both the 'Ultimate and Transient' share the same non-dual luminous essence and empty nature.
(6:50 PM) Thusness: A practitioner must continue to refine the 'view' till he is completely clear what is really blinding him.
2010:
(7:44 PM) Thusness: Some mistaken "I AMness" as non-dual in non-dual teaching.
(7:45 PM) Thusness: some have experience of non-dual but knows not the knot that blinds them. like John Wheeler. Some is clear about non-dual but is still attached to the One Mind.
(7:46 PM) Thusness: some totally eliminate the background and is clear that the formless background is simply another manifestation.
(7:47 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:48 PM) Thusness: some sees clearly the non-dual yet empty nature and maturing the insight realizes that the direct path is the natural state of self-liberation. But it is not as u described. and has nothing to do with what u said..
(7:49 PM) Thusness: it is clear seeing of the non-dual and empty nature of all arisings that lead to self liberation
(7:49 PM) Thusness: because the approach has nothing to do with dis-association.
(7:50 PM) Thusness: so the 'freeing of the inherent and dualistic' tendencies at that moment of 'seeing' is liberation. By definition, the absence of these tendencies is liberation.
(7:52 PM) Thusness: so practice becomes dynamic
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Soh Wei Yu
2010:
(7:46 PM) AEN: john wheeler: Like anything else, the "sense of I am" is still an appearance, an experience. Realize that the "sense of I am " is not what you are. You are TO WHOM even that appears. What you are has no "I" sense at all. There is no "I" in non-conceptual awareness. It is not even looking at anything, because it is one without a second. The observer and the observed both appear in your non-conceptual reality. Do not confuse what you are with the "observer". That also is a limited thing, an appearance. You are beyond the observer also.
.... Reality, your true nature itself, has no center or reference point. It is not in the head, in the body, or anywhere else. All appearances arise in that which has no position, reference point or boundary and which is your natural condition. A subtle reference of what we are to a location still implies a specific "I" that is able to be located. But pure being or awareness is "no thing". It has no position, no time, no space, no location. All of those only apply to a thing. But your real nature is not an object, not a thing. The basis of the troubles is the separate "I" notion. If there is any subtle belief in the "I", the mind will attempt to give it some position, definition, location or concept. Why? Because it has no substance. It
(7:47 PM) AEN: It needs to wrap itself in some clothing to have any semblance of being. One solution is to try to pull away all the landing zones. That is potentially an endless undertaking. It is so easy for the "I" notion to creep back into the proceedings. That is often the blind spot. The nature of a blind spot is that you cannot see it because you are looking through it and not recognizing that fact. It is like looking through your glasses to find the glasses you assume are lost. The clear and direct solution is to examine the validity of the "I" notion itself. Do not settle for pulling away the leaves and branches, but go for the root.
(7:49 PM) Thusness: yet that is still a referencing
(7:51 PM) Thusness: to be without reference is to realize that all there is always only Appearance. When u realized that thoroughly, u r without reference, location, direct and vividly Present. 🙂
Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010
(5:12 PM) AEN: john wheeler: To know any experience, there must be a knowing that "I am". That is just the basic conscious knowing of being present. That is what first appears out of deep sleep. It is not a personal "I" or any other notion. Call it impersonal knowing. Subsequently, the mind begins operating and the separate "I" notion is created in thought.
Pure awareness, or non-conceptual reality, is non-dual. Upon or within this arises self-consciousness, which is the pure sense of "I am", but not yet individualized. Then follows the "I" concept, or the notion of separate individuality. Lastly, there appear notions such as I am this or that (body, mind, personality, etc.).
From the perspective of reality, there is NO appearance to speak of, because the seeming appearance is the appearance of THAT. It is all THAT.
(5:12 PM) AEN: All phenomena appear in consciousness. That consciousness is NOT personal. It is the primordial or first experience in duality. It is the pure sense of "I am" with no other content, just knowing "I am" without words, or being self-consciously aware. But that is still an experience. You are the space in which even that comes and goes.
Session Start: Monday, 19 April, 2010
(10:51 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler recent para is not bad.
(11:08 PM) AEN: oic..
he's talking about non dual?
(11:11 PM) Thusness: not just that
(11:13 PM) Thusness: John Wheeler seems to be able to outline the different phases of "I M" i told u
(11:14 PM) Thusness: however that is only up till non-dual level
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13m
Soh Wei Yu
The reason why he thinks he understood anatta: because he realised certain aspect of no self. But only impersonality and up to nondual. 99% of the time when someone talks about no self, it is only at the impersonality level. They are not aware of the different degrees of self/Self and no-self/Self and the different insights and subtleties as I explained in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
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Soh Wei Yu
Aditya Prasad This distinction between consciousness and awareness only occurs in his later books, not earlier ones. When he was more influenced by Nisargadatta who is trying to point to Thusness Stage 3 (see: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/03/thusnesss-comments-on-nisargadatta.html )
And also see:
Thusness's Comments on Nisargadatta / Stage 3
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Thusness's Comments on Nisargadatta / Stage 3
Thusness's Comments on Nisargadatta / Stage 3
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Soh Wei Yu
Session Start: Monday, 21 June, 2010
(7:41 AM) AEN: http://www.naturalstate.us/pointers.html
what do u think of this:
(7:41 AM) AEN: When consciousness dawns upon arising from sleep, it is simply pure "knowing that I am". It is not individual, and is in fact, impersonal and unlimited. The notion of a limited self or "me" spins up in the subsequent conceptualizing in the mind after consciousness has already arisen. But
don't forget that your real position is the ever-present reality on which waking (consciousness) and sleep (unconsciousness) both appear.
(8:26 AM) AEN: A lot of people come up to the level of consciousness or recognizing the sense of being and take that as the absolute. Here they get stuck and mistake the dawn for the noon, so to speak. The "knowing that I am" or state of consciousness is the first eruption or modification on the absolute, eternal state. People generally miss the fact that
consciousness is an intermittent appearance. It is the first modification on the absolute and the beginning of duality. What people are often expounding as reality is really the root of the illusion! What is prior to consciousness — which is what you really are — cannot
(8:26 AM) AEN: properly be named. Whatever term is used is only a pointer. Sure, it may be pointed to as consciousness, awareness, being, emptiness, etc. but these are provisional pointers only. In the end, even these are discarded. Even statements like "I am consciousness",
"consciousness is all there is", "there is no one here", etc., are only mental concepts. So don't settle for pointers! Let the pointers go and BE what is being pointed to.
(8:38 AM) AEN: "many practitioners cannot know the difference and see the exact cause of arising and simply blah that there is no cause to it...
u should be clear about it." - lol i just found a post that did the exact same thing by saying there is no cause and whatever u do is useless 😛 http://beingisknowing.blogspot.com/.../nothing-works...
(8:41 AM) Thusness: When we say cause, we are really saying predictable patterns, not a metaphysical something behind.
(8:41 AM) AEN: oic.. yah, this guy is saying there is no predictable pattern or cause of an insight... and whatever u do is useless 😛
then i wonder why he wrote that for 😛
(8:42 AM) Thusness: ic...that is advaita...
(8:42 AM) AEN: ic.. u mean advaita generally teach that?
they teach self inquiry rite
(8:45 AM) Thusness: yeah...overwhelmed by the taste of presence, we wanted so much to make it 'independent' to suit our 'free will' and 'absolute' model of our dualistic paradigm, that is the mind created such a notion of Absolute Reality.
(8:46 AM) Thusness: This will only hinder our progress from further experiencing presence.
(8:46 AM) AEN: oic..
(8:46 AM) AEN: btw did u see this article - deepak chopra seems to be talking about the maha experience here http://www.anhglobal.org/en/node/591
(8:49 AM) Thusness: imo, that is more theoretical then experiential.
(8:49 AM) AEN: icic..
(9:03 AM) AEN: http://www.prahlad.org/.../NISARGADATTA%20CONSCIOUSNESS...
(9:03 AM) AEN: 3. Then I realize that if I subtract all the above, what is left? Only my sense of existing itself, my sense of presence, my sense of being here, the consciousness. I realize that I am that consciousness only,
(9:03 AM) AEN: the feeling of existing. I must be THAT. What IS that? It is very subtle. But now I am coming closer. This is the realization of the mystical phrase "I am that I am." And along with this stage of realization
comes the realization of my universality. This realization of the "I am" brings with it the explosive understanding that there is no such thing as an individual, the "I am" is universal, everyone and every
living thing is feeling it the same way. We don't ourselves create our sense of "I am." Rather we inherit the prior existing sense of presence of the original beingness which spontaneously first appeared on the background of the void, or the object-less pure awareness.
4. When I am thus established in sense of identity with this universal sense of presence, or the "I am," I am at last poised for the final realization. Remember, the realization of the "I am" is already a very
high state, and many will simply stop here to enjoy living in the universal personless beingness. This is the knowledge of God and the knowledge that I am God. But some rare ones keep going and keep
questioning deeper and come to the breakthrough realization that ALL beingness, even the beingness of "God" is still a form of illusion and duality, and they will realize and move into and "become" the
(9:03 AM) AEN: pure awareness only, giving up even that last and very high identity as the universal "I am." The consciousness will continue on no doubt, and the all the activities of life, but the identity of myself will now be
(9:04 AM) AEN: fixed back at its original home, the pure awareness which was prior to consciousness.
This last step is still incomprehensible to me but I love to think about it again and again. Many can give up the lesser false identifications, casting them off like tattered old clothes and stripping naked down
to the singular universal consciousness. But who can give up that very sense of beingness itself? We LOVE to be, and fear terribly not being anymore. It is frightening! Looked at from a lower level the final
realization seems like absolute and utter annihilation itself, and who on earth wants to be completely annihilated? Thus, very few rare souls ever realize the final realization! Above all, I WANT TO BE!
(9:05 AM) AEN: Buddha became the Void itself and entered into the great nirvana. A friend of mine called it "The Great Suicide." Then one realizes the final incredible and terrifying reality: there is nothing. And though
really and truly there is absolutely nothing, at the same time that nothingness is inexplicably filled to fullness with an indescribable "something which is not a thing," the pure awareness, the absolute,
unaware of itself. That is the one and only "thing-which-is-not- a-thing" which is truly real. All else is false, a fraud made of spacetime, of things which begin and end and come and go, the Great Maha
Maya, the dreams of the universal mind.
-
is this talking about transiting from I AM to impersonality?
(9:08 AM) Thusness: no
(9:11 AM) Thusness: this is phase 3 in terms of thoroughness and willingness of giving out even the sense of Presence... a phase to eliminate the ultimate block. Whatever experience that arises becomes secondary... it is an inner development to eliminate the last trace of 'Self/self' or clinging to the sense of 'I' but without any arising insight of non-dual or anatta.
(9:12 AM) Thusness: that sense of 'Self', that knot, that ultimate clinging, that ultimate attachment... we do not have to do away with it this way, it can be dissolved by the right view of emptiness.
(9:13 AM) AEN: oic..
(9:13 AM) Thusness: with that clinging to Presence, 'effortlessness' will not be truly understood.
(9:14 AM) Thusness: any form of clinging, be it Self/self or Presence, will prevent a practitioner from correctly experiencing 'effortlessness'. This is the 4th aspect I want u to realize.
(9:15 AM) Thusness: However this person only sees the 'void'.
(9:15 AM) AEN: icic..
(9:22 AM) AEN: btw what i pasted just now by john wheeler on top is also on the void?
(9:40 AM) Thusness: john wheeler is speculating with the attachment of Presence.
(9:40 AM) AEN: oic..
(9:43 AM) Thusness: that is, he wants to talk about the 'void' without giving up the sense of Presence.
(9:43 AM) AEN: icic..
naturalstate.us
NATURALSTATE.US
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