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(Soh: This article was written by my teacher, "Thusness"/"PasserBy". I have personally experienced these phases of realizations.)
NOTE: The stages are nothing authoritative, merely for sharing purposes. The article On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection is a good reference for these 7 phases of experience. The original six stages of experience has been updated to seven stages of experience, with the addition of 'Stage 7: Presence is Spontaneously Perfected' for readers to understand that seeing the nature of reality as the ground of all experiences which is Always So, is important for effortlessness to take place.
Based on: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=210722&page=3
Comments below are by Thusness unless explicitly stated to be from Soh.
(First written: 20th September 2006, Last Updated by Thusness: 27th August 2012, Last Updated by Soh: 22nd January 2019)
Stage 1: The Experience of “I AM”
It was about 20 years back and it all started with the question of “Before birth, who am I?” I do not know why but this question seemed to capture my entire being. I could spend days and nights just sitting focusing, pondering over this question; till one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arose. There was merely nothing and completely void, only this pure sense of existence. This mere sense of I, this Presence, what was it? It was not the body, not thought as there was no thought, nothing at all, just Existence itself. There was no need for anyone to authenticate this understanding.
At that moment of realization, I experienced a tremendous flow of energy being released. It was as if life was expressing itself through my body and I was nothing but this expression. However at that point in time, I was still unable to fully understand what this experience was and how I had misunderstood its nature.
Comments by Soh: This is also the First Stage of the Five Ranks of Tozan Ryokai (a Zen Buddhism map of awakening), called "The Apparent within the Real". This phase can also be described as an oceanic Ground of Being or Source devoid of the sense of individuality/personal self, described here by Thusness in 2006:
"Like a river flowing into the ocean, the self dissolves into nothingness. When a practitioner becomes thoroughly clear about the illusionary nature of the individuality, subject-object division does not take place. A person experiencing “AMness” will find “AMness in everything”. What is it like?
Being freed from individuality -- coming and going, life and death, all phenomenon merely pop in and out from the background of the AMness. The AMness is not experienced as an ‘entity’ residing anywhere, neither within nor without; rather it is experienced as the ground reality for all phenomenon to take place. Even in the moment of subsiding (death), the yogi is thoroughly authenticated with that reality; experiencing the ‘Real’ as clear as it can be. We cannot lose that AMness; rather all things can only dissolve and re-emerges from it. The AMness has not moved, there is no coming and going. This "AMness" is God.
Practitioners should never mistake this as the true Buddha Mind! "I AMness" is the pristine awareness. That is why it is so overwhelming. Just that there is no 'insight' into its emptiness nature." (Excerpt from Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am")
Soh: To realize I AM, the most direct method is Self-Inquiry, asking yourself 'Before birth, Who am I?' or just 'Who am I?' See: What is your very Mind right now?, self-inquiry chapter in The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version and Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind and my free e-book, Tips on Self Enquiry: Investigate Who am I, Not 'Ask' Who am I, The Direct Path to Your Real Self, Ramana Maharshi's text 'Who am I?' (https://app.box.com/s/v8r7i8ng17cxr1aoiz9ca1jychct6v84) and his book 'Be As You Are', Ch'an Master Hsu Yun's texts and books which you can read an example from Essentials Of Chan Practice (Hua Tou/Self Enquiry), and other self-inquiry book recommendations in Book Recommendations 2019 and Practice Advices or these youtube videos:
Although John Tan was not yet a Buddhist when he realised I AM, this is also an important preliminary realization for many Buddhist practitioners. (But for some, the aspect of luminous Presence only dawns much later in their path). And as John Tan said before, “First is directly authenticating mind/consciousness 明心 (Soh: Apprehending Mind). There is the direct path like zen sudden enlightenment of one's original mind or mahamudra or dzogchen direct introduction of rigpa or even self enquiry of advaita -- the direct, immediate, perception of "consciousness" without intermediaries. They are the same.
However that is not realization of emptiness.” It is also the “luminous mind” as explained by Theravada Buddhism and masters like Ajahn Brahmavamso (see: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/09/seven-stages-and-theravada.html). Do note that the I AM spoken of in I AM realization has nothing to do with Asmi-māna: lit.: 'I am'-conceit, as these are two entirely different matters altogether. However, this does not mean that the I AM is the final realization in any of the Buddhist traditions, as explained in Recognizing Rigpa vs Realizing Emptiness, and the Different Modalities of Rigpa - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/09/the-degrees-of-rigpa.html
Personally, asking myself 'Before birth, Who am I?' for two years led to my doubtless certainty of Being/Self-Realisation. Do note that very often, one is having glimpses and experiences of I AM or vivid spaciousness or some recognition of being an observer, but all these are not the I AM Realization of Thusness Stage 1, nor is Stage 1 realization merely a state of clarity. Self-Inquiry will lead to doubtless realization. I had glimpses of I AM on and off for three years before my doubtless Self-Realization in February 2010 which I wrote in my first journal entry of my free e-book. On the differences, see I AM Experience/Glimpse/Recognition vs I AM Realization (Certainty of Being) and the first point in Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives
For further progress after I AM realization, focus on Four Aspects of I AM, contemplating the two stanzas of anatta in On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection and Two Types of Nondual Contemplation
Many people I know (including Thusness himself) were/are stuck at Phase 1~3 for decades or their whole life without much progress due to lack of clear pointers and guidance, but by following Thusness's advice on the four aspects and contemplation on anatta (no-self), I was able to progress from Phase 1 realization to Phase 5 in less than a year, back in 2010.
Stage 2: The Experience of “I AM Everything”
It seemed that my experience was supported by many Advaita and Hindu teachings. But the biggest mistake I made was when I spoke to a Buddhist friend. He told me about the doctrine of no-self, about no ‘I’. I rejected such doctrine outright as it was in direct contradiction with what I had experienced. I was deeply confused for some time and could not appreciate why Buddha had taught this doctrine and worse still, make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into ‘Me’ but somehow there was no ‘me’. It was like an “I-less I’. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insisted that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience was wonderful, it was as if I was totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary. I told myself, “I am totally convinced that I am no longer confused”, so I wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the ‘blueness’
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real than the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This phrase was like a mantra to me. I often used this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey was the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence, but somehow there was always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience. It was the inability to fully ‘die’ into total Presence..
Comments by Soh: The following excerpt should clarify about this phase:
“It is bringing this I AM into everything. I AM the I in you. The I in the cat, the I in the bird. I AM the first person in everyone and Everything. I. That is my second phase. That the I is ultimate and universal.” - John Tan, 2013
Stage 3: Entering Into a State of Nothingness
Somehow something was blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence was still there but there was no sense of ‘totality’. It was both logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ was the problem. It was the ‘I’ that was blocking; it was the ‘I’ that was the limit; it was the ‘I’ that was the boundary but why couldn’t I do away with it? At that point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about. Instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivion to get rid of the ‘I’... This continued for the next 13+ years (in between of course there were many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times, but with gaps a few months long)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything is simply Self So.
Comments by Soh:
Here's something Thusness wrote to me about Stage 3 while I was having some glimpses of Stage 1 and 2 in 2008,
Also see this article for comments on Stage 3: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/03/thusnesss-comments-on-nisargadatta.html
For further progress after I AM realization, focus on Four Aspects of I AM, contemplating the two stanzas of anatta in On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection and Two Types of Nondual Contemplation
Many people I know (including Thusness himself) were/are stuck at Phase 1~3 for decades or their whole life without much progress due to lack of clear pointers and guidance, but by following Thusness's advice on the four aspects and contemplation on anatta (no-self), I was able to progress from Phase 1 realization to Phase 5 in less than a year, back in 2010.
Stage 2: The Experience of “I AM Everything”
It seemed that my experience was supported by many Advaita and Hindu teachings. But the biggest mistake I made was when I spoke to a Buddhist friend. He told me about the doctrine of no-self, about no ‘I’. I rejected such doctrine outright as it was in direct contradiction with what I had experienced. I was deeply confused for some time and could not appreciate why Buddha had taught this doctrine and worse still, make it a Dharma Seal. Until one day, I experienced the fusing of everything into ‘Me’ but somehow there was no ‘me’. It was like an “I-less I’. I somehow accepted the 'no I' idea but then I still insisted that Buddha shouldn't have put it that way...
The experience was wonderful, it was as if I was totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary. I told myself, “I am totally convinced that I am no longer confused”, so I wrote a poem (something like the below),
I am the rain
I am the sky
I am the ‘blueness’
The color of the sky
Nothing is more real than the I
Therefore Buddha, I am I.
There is a phrase for this experience -- Whenever and wherever there IS, the IS is Me. This phrase was like a mantra to me. I often used this to lead me back into the experience of Presence.
The rest of the journey was the unfolding and further refining of this experience of Total Presence, but somehow there was always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience. It was the inability to fully ‘die’ into total Presence..
Comments by Soh: The following excerpt should clarify about this phase:
“It is bringing this I AM into everything. I AM the I in you. The I in the cat, the I in the bird. I AM the first person in everyone and Everything. I. That is my second phase. That the I is ultimate and universal.” - John Tan, 2013
Stage 3: Entering Into a State of Nothingness
Somehow something was blocking the natural flow of my innermost essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence was still there but there was no sense of ‘totality’. It was both logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ was the problem. It was the ‘I’ that was blocking; it was the ‘I’ that was the limit; it was the ‘I’ that was the boundary but why couldn’t I do away with it? At that point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the nature of awareness and what awareness is all about. Instead, I was too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivion to get rid of the ‘I’... This continued for the next 13+ years (in between of course there were many other minor events and the experience of total presence did occur many times, but with gaps a few months long)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything is simply Self So.
Comments by Soh:
Here's something Thusness wrote to me about Stage 3 while I was having some glimpses of Stage 1 and 2 in 2008,
"Associating 'death of I' with vivid luminosity of your experience is far too early. This will lead you into erroneous views because there is also the experience of practitioners by way of complete surrendering or elimination (dropping) like Taoist practitioners. An experience of deep bliss that is beyond that of what you experienced can occur. But the focus is not on luminosity but effortlessness, naturalness and spontaneity. In complete giving up, there is no 'I' ; it is also needless to know anything; in fact 'knowledge' is considered a stumbling block. The practitioner drops away mind, body, knowledge...everything. There is no insight, there is no luminosity there is only total allowing of whatever that happens, happen in its own accord. All senses including consciousness are shut and fully absorbed. Awareness of 'anything' is only after emerging from that state.
One is the experience of vivid luminosity while the other is a state of oblivious. It is therefore not appropriate to relate the complete dissolving of 'I' with what you experienced alone."
However, it is only at Thusness Stage 4 and 5 that one realizes that the effortless and natural way to give up self/Self is through the realization and actualization of anatta as an insight, not through entering a special or altered state of trance, samadhi, absorption or oblivion. As Thusness wrote before,
"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. "
~ Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)
"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another from of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force yourself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."
Stage 4: Presence as Mirror Bright Clarity
I got in touch with Buddhism in 1997. Not because I wanted to find out more about the experience of ‘Presence’ but rather the teaching of impermanence synced deeply with what I was experiencing in life. I was faced with the possibility of losing all my wealth and more by financial crisis. At that point in time I had no idea that Buddhism is so profoundly rich on the aspect of ‘Presence’. The mystery of life cannot be understood, I sought for a refuge in Buddhism to alleviate my sorrows caused by the financial crisis, but it turned out to be the missing key towards experiencing total presence.
I wasn’t that resistant then to the doctrine of ‘no-self’ but the idea that all phenomenal existence is empty of an inherent ‘self’ or ‘Self’ did not quite get into me. Were they talking about the ‘self’ as a personality or ‘Self’ as ‘Eternal Witness’? Must we do away even with the ‘Witness’? Was the Witness itself another illusion?
There is thinking, no thinker
There is sound, no hearer
Suffering exists, no sufferer
Deeds there are, no doer
I was meditating on the meaning of the above stanza deeply until one day, suddenly I heard ‘tongss…’, it was so clear, there was nothing else, just the sound and nothing else! And ‘tongs…’ resounding… It was so clear, so vivid!
That experience was so familiar, so real and so clear. It was the same experience of “I AM”… it was without thought, without concepts, without intermediary, without anyone there, without any in-between… What was it? IT was Presence! But this time it was not ‘I AM’, it was not asking ‘who am I’, it was not the pure sense of “I AM”, it was ‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound…
Then came Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
The heart beats…
The Scenery…
There was no gap in between, no longer a few months gap for it to arise…
There never was a stage to enter, no I to cease and never had it existed
There is no entry and exit point…
There is no Sound out there or in here…
There is no ‘I’ apart from the arising and ceasing…
The manifold of Presence…
Moment to moment Presence unfolds…
Comments:Comments by Soh:
This is the beginning of seeing through no-self. Insight into no-self has arisen but non-dual experience is still very much 'Brahman' rather than 'Sunyata'; in fact it is more Brahman than ever. Now "I AMness" is experienced in All.
Nevertheless it is a very important key phase where the practitioner experiences a quantum leap in perception untying the dualistic knot. This is also the key insight leading to the realization that "All is Mind", all is just this One Reality.
The tendency to extrapolate an Ultimate Reality or Universal Consciousness where we are part of this Reality remains surprisingly strong. Effectively the dualistic knot is gone but the bond of seeing things inherently isn't. 'Dualistic' and 'inherent' knots that prevent the full experiencing of our Maha, empty and non-dual nature of pristine awareness are two very different 'perceptual spells' that blind.
The subsection "On Second Stanza" of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection" further elaborates this insight.
The beginning of non-dual realization and the gateless gate without entry and exit. One no longer seeks after a state of oblivion to get rid of self as in the case of Stage 3 but starts to realize and actualize the always-already-so of no-self and non-dual nature of Awareness. Still, Stage 4 tends to end up in the case of dissolving separateness into the pole of an ultimate pure subjectivity rather than seeing consciousness as the mere flow of phenomenality as in Stage 5, thus leaving traces of an Absolute.
Thusness wrote in 2005:
"Without 'self' oneness is immediately attained. There is only and always this Isness. Subject has always been the Object of observation. This is true samadhi without entering trance. Completely understanding this truth. It is the true way towards liberation. Every sound, sensation, arising of consciousness is so clear, real and vivid. Every moment is samadhi. The tip of the fingers in contact with the keyboard, mysteriously created the contact consciousness, what is it? Feel the entirety of beingness and realness. There is no subject... just Isness. No thought, there really is no thought and no 'self'. Only Pure Awareness.", "How could anyone understand? The crying, the sound, the noise is buddha. It is all the experience of Thusness. To know the true meaning of this, Hold not even the slightest trace of 'I'. In the most natural state of ILessNess, All Is. Even if one said the same statement, the depth of experience differs. The is no point convincing anyone. Can anyone understand? Any form of rejection, Any sort of division Is to reject buddhahood. If there is a slightest sense of a subject, an experiencer, we miss the point. Natural Awareness is subjectless. The vividness and clarity. Feel, taste, see and hear with totality. There is always no 'I'. Thank you Buddha, You truly know. :)"
Stage 5: No Mirror Reflecting
There is no mirror reflecting
All along manifestation alone is.
The one hand claps
Everything IS!
Effectively Phase 4 is merely the experience of non-division between subject/object. The initial insight glimpsed from the anatta stanza is without self but in the later phase of my progress it appeared more like subject/object as an inseparable union, rather than absolutely no-subject. This is precisely the 2nd case of the Three levels of understanding Non-Dual. I was still awed by the pristineness and vividness of phenomena in phase 4.
Phase 5 is quite thorough in being no one and I would call this anatta in all 3 aspects -- no subject/object division, no doer-ship and absence of agent.
The trigger point here is the direct and thorough seeing that 'the mirror is nothing more than an arising thought'. With this, the solidity and all the grandeur of 'Brahman' goes down the drain. Yet it feels perfectly right and liberating without the agent and being simply as an arising thought or as a vivid moment of a bell resounding. All the vividness and presence remains, with an additional sense of freedom. Here a mirror/reflection union is clearly understood as flawed, there is only vivid reflection. There cannot be a 'union' if there isn't a subject to begin with. It is only in subtle recalling, that is in a thought recalling a previous moment of thought, that the watcher seems to exist. From here, I moved towards the 3rd degree of non-dual.
The Stanza One complements and refines Stanza Two to make the experience of no-self thorough and effortless into just only chirping birds, drum beats, footsteps, sky, mountain, walking, chewing and tasting; no witness whatsoever hiding anywhere! 'Everything' is a process, event, manifestation and phenomenon, nothing ontological or having an essence.
This phase is a very thorough non-dual experience; there is effortlessness in the non-dual and one realizes that in seeing there is always just scenery and in hearing, always just sounds. We find true delights in naturalness and ordinariness as commonly expressed in Zen as 'chop wood, carry water; spring comes, grass grows'. With regards to ordinariness (see "On Maha in Ordinariness"), this must also be correctly understood. A recent conversation with Simpo summarizes what I am trying to convey with regards to ordinariness. Simpo (Longchen) is a very insightful and sincere practitioner, there are some very good quality articles written by him regarding non-duality in his website Dreamdatum.
Yes Simpo,Practitioners up to this level often get over excited believing that this phase is final; in fact it does appear to be a sort of pseudo finality. But this is a misunderstanding. Nothing much can be said. The practitioner will also be naturally led into spontaneous perfection without going further in emptying the aggregates. :-)
Non-dual is ordinary as there is no 'beyond' stage to arrive at. It appears to be extraordinary and grandeur only as an afterthought due to comparison.
That said, the maha experience appearing as "universe chewing" and the spontaneity of pristine happening must still remain maha, free, boundless and clear. For that is what it is and cannot be otherwise. The "extraordinariness and grandeur" that result from comparison must also be correctly discerned from the 'what is' of non-dual.
Whenever contraction steps in, it is already a manifestation of 'experiencer-experience split'. Conventionally speaking, that being the cause, that is the effect. Whatever the condition is, be it the result of unfavorable situations or subtle recalling to arrive at a certain good sensation or attempting to fix an imaginary split, we have to treat it that the 'non-dual' insight has not pervaded into our entire being like the way 'karmic tendency to divide' does. We have not fearlessly, openly and unreservedly welcomed whatever is. :-)
Just my view, a casual sharing.
For further comments: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/210722?page=6
Comments:Stage 6: The Nature of Presence is Empty
The drop is thorough, the center is gone. The center is nothing more than a subtle karmic tendency to divide. A more poetic expression would be “sound hears, scenery sees, the dust is the mirror.” Transient phenomena themselves have always been the mirror; only a strong dualistic view prevents the seeing.
Very often cycles after cycles of refining our insights are needed to make the non-dual less 'concentrative' and more 'effortless'. This relates to experiencing the non-solidity and spontaneity of experience. The subsection "On First Stanza" of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection" further elaborates this phase of insight.
At this phase, we must be clear that emptying the subject will only result in non-duality and there is a need to further empty the aggregates, 18 dhatus. This means one must further penetrate the emptiness nature of the 5 aggregates, 18 dhatus with dependent origination and emptiness. The need to reify a Universal Brahman is understood as the karmic tendency to 'solidify' experiences. This leads to the understanding of the empty nature of non-dual presence.
Phase 4 and 5 are the grayscale of seeing through the subject that it does not exist in actuality (anatta), there are only the aggregates. However even the aggregates are empty (Heart Sutra). It may sound obvious but more often than not, even a practitioner who has matured the anatta experience (as in phase 5) will miss the essence of it.
As I have said earlier, phase 5 does appear to be final and it is pointless to emphasize anything. Whether one proceeds further to explore this empty nature of Presence and move into the Maha world of suchness will depend on our conditions.
At this juncture, it is necessary to have clarity on what Emptiness is not to prevent misunderstandings:
• Emptiness is not a substanceAnd I would like to add,
• Emptiness is not a substratum or background
• Emptiness is not light
• Emptiness is not consciousness or awareness
• Emptiness is not the Absolute
• Emptiness does not exist on its own
• Objects do not consist of emptiness
• Objects do not arise from emptiness
• Emptiness of the "I" does not negate the "I"
• Emptiness is not the feeling that results when no objects are appearing to the mind
• Meditating on emptiness does not consist of quieting the mind
Source: Non-Dual Emptiness Teaching
Emptiness is not a path of practice
Emptiness is not a form of fruition
Emptiness is the 'nature' of all experiences. There is nothing to attain or practice. What we have to realize is this empty nature, this ‘ungraspability’, ‘unlocatability ’ and ‘interconnectedness’ nature of all vivid arising. Emptiness will reveal that not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’. Be it ‘I’, ‘Here’ or ’Now’, all are simply impressions that dependently originate in accordance with the principle of conditionality.
When there is this, that is.The profundity of this four-liner principle of conditionality is not in words. For a more theoretical exposition, see Non-Dual Emptiness Teachings by Dr. Greg Goode; for a more experiential narration, see the subsection "On Emptiness" and "On Maha" of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection".
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.
Comments:Stage 7: Presence is Spontaneously Perfected
Here practice is clearly understood as neither going after the mirror nor escaping from the maya reflection; it is to thoroughly 'see' the 'nature' of reflection. To see that there is really no mirror other than the on-going reflection due to our emptiness nature. Neither is there a mirror to cling to as the background reality nor a maya to escape from. Beyond these two extreme lies the middle path -- the prajna wisdom of seeing that the maya is our Buddha nature.
Recently An Eternal Now has updated some very high quality articles that better described the maha experience of suchness. Do read the following articles:
- Emancipation of Suchness
- Buddha-Dharma: A Dream in a Dream
The last 3 subsections ("On Emptiness", "On Maha in Ordinariness", "Spontaneous Perfection") of the post "On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection" elaborates this phase of emptiness insight and the gradual progress of maturing the experience into the effortless mode of practice. It is important to know that in addition to the experience of the unfindability and ungraspability of emptiness, the interconnectedness of everything creating the Maha experience is equally precious.
After cycles and cycles of refining our practice and insights, we will come to this realization:
Anatta is a seal, not a stage.All are always and already so. Only dualistic and inherent views are obscuring these experiential facts and therefore what is really needed is simply to experience whatever arises openly and unreservedly (See section "On Spontaneous Perfection"). However this does not denote the end of practice; practice simply moves to become dynamic and conditions-manifestation based. The ground and the path of practice become indistinguishable.
Awareness has always been non-dual.
Appearances have always been Non-arising.
All phenomena are ‘interconnected’ and by nature Maha.
Comments:
The entire article of On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection can be seen as the different approaches toward the eventual realization of this already perfect and uncontrived nature of awareness.
Comments from Soh:
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As of now - Year 2019, about 12 years after this article was first written by Thusness, more than 30 people have realised anatta (2022 update: now more than 60 by my count!) through encountering this blog, myself or Thusness. I am glad that these articles and blog have been of a positive impact to the spiritual community, and I'm confident that it will continue to be of benefit to many more seekers in years to come.
It has come to my attention after all these years that despite the clear descriptions by Thusness above, the Thusness 7 Stages of insights are very often misapprehended. This is why further clarifications and elaborations are necessary.
Do refer to these articles for more commentaries by Thusness on the 7 stages:
Difference Between Thusness Stage 1 and 2 and other Stages
Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"
Some Conversations About Thusness Stage 1 and 2 in 2008
Wrong Interpretation of I AM as Background
Difference Between Thusness Stage 4 and 5 (Substantial Non-duality vs Anatta)
Wrong Interpretation of I AM as Background
Difference Between Thusness Stage 4 and 5 (Substantial Non-duality vs Anatta)
Difference Between Thusness Stage 4 and 5 (2nd article, shorter one commented by Soh)
Two Types of Nondual Contemplation after I AM (On How to Realize Anatta)
Advice for Taiyaki (Pointers for Post-Anatta Contemplation)
+A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6)
Two Types of Nondual Contemplation after I AM (On How to Realize Anatta)
Advice for Taiyaki (Pointers for Post-Anatta Contemplation)
+A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6)
My Favourite Sutra, Non-Arising and Dependent Origination of Sound
Non-Arising due to Dependent Origination
Non-Arising due to Dependent Origination
For more pointers on how to investigate and contemplate to attain each of those realizations above, see Book Recommendations 2019 and Practice Advise
It is important to note that it is common to have certain insights into no-self, impersonality and non-doership, and yet it is not the same as the insight of Thusness Stage 5 or even Thusness Stage 4, as discussed in Non-Doership is Not Yet Anatta Realization. If you think you realised Anatta or Stage 5, make sure to check out this article, as it is often very common to mistaken non-doership, substantialist non-duality or even a state of no-mind for the insight of anatta: Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls . It is my estimate that when someone says they have broken through to no-self, 95% to 99% of the time they are referring to impersonality or non-doership, not even non dual, let alone the true realization of anatman (Buddhism's no-self dharma seal).
Furthermore, another common mistake is to think that the peak experience of no-mind (where any trace or sense of being a subject/perceiver/self/Self behind experience temporarily dissolves and what's left is simply 'just experience' or 'just the vivid colors/sounds/scents/taste/touch/thought) is similar to the anatta 'dharma-seal' insight/realization of Thusness Stage 5. It is not the same. It is common to have an experience, but rare to have realization. Yet it is the realization of anatta that stabilizes the experience, or makes it effortless. For example, in my case, after the realization of anatta has arisen and stabilized, I do not have the slightest trace or sense of subject/object division or agency for about 8 years, till now, and John Tan reports the same for the past 20+ years (he realised anatta in 1997 and overcame the trace of background in a year or so). It should be noted that overcoming subject/object division and agency (which happens even at Thusness Stage 5) does not mean other subtler obscurations are eliminated -- the complete elimination of this is full Buddhahood (a topic that is discussed in the article Buddhahood: The End of All Emotional/Mental Afflictions and Knowledge Obscurations, as well as Traditional Buddhist Attainments: Arahantship and Buddhahood chapter in Awakening to Reality: A Guide to the Nature of Mind). That is natural after realization sinks in to replace the old paradigm or conditioned ways of perception, it's a bit like figuring out a picture puzzle and never unseeing it again. However this does not indicate an end or finality to practice, or the attainment of Buddhahood. Practice still goes on, it simply becomes dynamic and condition-based as stated in Stage 7, even Stage 7 is not a finality. The topic of experience vs realization is discussed further in No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight. It is also common to fall into the disease of non-conceptuality, mistaking that as the source of liberation and thus clinging to or seeking a state of non-conceptuality as the main object of practice, whereas liberation comes only through the dissolving of ignorance and views (of subject/object duality, and inherent existence) that cause reification, by insight and realization. (See: The Disease of Non-Conceptuality) It is true that reification is conceptual. But merely training to be non-conceptual is simply suppressing the symptoms while not treating the cause - ignorance (resting in non-conceptual presencing is important as part of meditative training but must go along with wisdom [insight into anatta, dependent origination and emptiness] as the natural ongoing actualization of anatta). For non-reification leads to non-conceptuality but non-conceptuality itself does not lead to non-reified perception.
So when insights into anatta, D.O. [dependent origination] and emptiness are realized and actualized, perception is naturally non-reified and non-conceptual. Furthermore we must see the empty and non-arising nature of all phenomena from the perspective of dependent origination. Thusness wrote in 2014, "Be it Buddha himself, Nagarjuna or Tsongkhapa, none [of them] never got overwhelmed and amazed with the profundity of dependent origination. It is just that we do not have the wisdom to penetrate enough depth of it." and "Actually if you do not see Dependent Origination, you do not see Buddhism [i.e. the essence of Buddhadharma]. Anatta is just the beginning."
It is also necessary to understand that the 7 stages are not rankings of 'importance', but are simply the order of how certain insights unfolded in Thusness's journey, although I too have gone through the stages in pretty much the same order. Each realization in the Thusness 7 Stages is important and precious. The realization of 'I AMness' should not be seen as being 'less important' or 'arbitrary' when compared with the realization of emptiness, and I often tell people to start with or go through the I AMness realization to bring out the aspect of luminosity first (for some others, this aspect will only be obvious in later phases of practice). Or as Thusness said in the past, we should "see all as important insights to release the deep karmic conditioning so that clarity becomes effortless, uncontrived, free and liberating." The phases of realizations may not necessarily arise in the same order or linear way for each person, and one may need to cycle through the insights a couple of times for 'deepening' (see: Are the insight stages strictly linear?) Furthermore, as Thusness said, "The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights" (see: Anatta and Pure Presence)
So when insights into anatta, D.O. [dependent origination] and emptiness are realized and actualized, perception is naturally non-reified and non-conceptual. Furthermore we must see the empty and non-arising nature of all phenomena from the perspective of dependent origination. Thusness wrote in 2014, "Be it Buddha himself, Nagarjuna or Tsongkhapa, none [of them] never got overwhelmed and amazed with the profundity of dependent origination. It is just that we do not have the wisdom to penetrate enough depth of it." and "Actually if you do not see Dependent Origination, you do not see Buddhism [i.e. the essence of Buddhadharma]. Anatta is just the beginning."
It is also necessary to understand that the 7 stages are not rankings of 'importance', but are simply the order of how certain insights unfolded in Thusness's journey, although I too have gone through the stages in pretty much the same order. Each realization in the Thusness 7 Stages is important and precious. The realization of 'I AMness' should not be seen as being 'less important' or 'arbitrary' when compared with the realization of emptiness, and I often tell people to start with or go through the I AMness realization to bring out the aspect of luminosity first (for some others, this aspect will only be obvious in later phases of practice). Or as Thusness said in the past, we should "see all as important insights to release the deep karmic conditioning so that clarity becomes effortless, uncontrived, free and liberating." The phases of realizations may not necessarily arise in the same order or linear way for each person, and one may need to cycle through the insights a couple of times for 'deepening' (see: Are the insight stages strictly linear?) Furthermore, as Thusness said, "The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence. Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights" (see: Anatta and Pure Presence)
And as Thusness wrote before, "Hi Jax, Despite all differences we may have about lower yanas, no practices needed, Absolute… I really appreciate your zealous attempt to bring this message into view and I agree with you wholeheartedly on this aspect of “transmission”. If one truly wants this essence to be “transmitted”, how can it be otherwise? For what that is to be passed is truly of different dimension, how can it be adulterated with words and forms? The ancient teachers are extremely serious observing and waiting for the right condition to pass the essence unreservedly and wholeheartedly. So much so that when the essence is transmitted, it must boil the blood and penetrate deep into the bone marrow. The entire body-mind must become one opening eye. Once open, everything turns “spirit”, mind intellect drops and what’s left is aliveness and intelligence everywhere! Jax, I sincerely hope you well, just don’t leave trace in the Absolute. Gone!"
Also, it is very important to understand that having a conceptual understanding of no-self, dependent origination and emptiness is very different from direct realization. As I told Mr. MS in The Importance of Luminosity, it is very possible to have the conceptual understanding of Stage 6 but lacking in direct realization (see: Suchness / Mr. MS). As Thusness pointed out in Purpose of Madhyamaka, if after all the analysis and contemplations of Madhyamaka (Buddhist emptiness teachings taught by Nagarjuna) one is unable to realize that the mundane is precisely where one's natural radiance is fully expressed, a separate pointing is necessary.
Many may wonder, why the need for so many phases of insights? Is there a way to reach liberation instantly? Some people find all these stages and information to be overly complex. Isn't truth something that is direct and simple? For the fortunate few (or perhaps, someone of 'higher capacity'), like Bahiya of the Bark Clothe, they were able to attain liberation immediately upon hearing a single verse of Dhamma/Dharma from the Buddha. For the majority of us, there is a process of uncovering truth and penetrating our thick layers of delusions. It is very common to get stuck at a phase of realization and think that one has reached a finality (even in earlier phases like Thusness Stage 1), but are still unable to dissolve subtle identities and reification that cause clinging, thus preventing liberation. If one is able to penetrate by insight and dissolve all self/Self/identities/reifications at once, one may be liberated on the spot. But if (most likely the case) one does not have this capacity to penetrate all delusions at once, further pointings and phases of insights are necessary. As Thusness said, "Although Joan Tollifson spoke of the natural non-dual state as something “so simple, so immediate, so obvious, so ever-present that we often overlook”, we have to understand that to even come to this realization of the “Simplicity of What Is”, a practitioner will need to undergo a painstaking process of de-constructing the mental constructs. We must be deeply aware of the ‘blinding spell’ in order to understand consciousness. I believe Joan must have gone through a period of deep confusions, not to under-estimate it. :)" (Excerpt from: Three Paradigms with Nondual Luminosity)
As John Tan said,
"Though buddha nature is plainness and most direct, these are still the steps. If one does not know the process and said ‘yes this is it’… then it is extremely misleading. For 99 percent [of ‘realized’/’enlightened’ persons] what one is talking about is "I AMness", and has not gone beyond permanence, still thinking [of] permanence, formless… ...all and almost all will think of it along the line of "I AMness", all are like the grandchildren of "AMness", and that is the root cause of duality.” - John Tan, 2007
"Though buddha nature is plainness and most direct, these are still the steps. If one does not know the process and said ‘yes this is it’… then it is extremely misleading. For 99 percent [of ‘realized’/’enlightened’ persons] what one is talking about is "I AMness", and has not gone beyond permanence, still thinking [of] permanence, formless… ...all and almost all will think of it along the line of "I AMness", all are like the grandchildren of "AMness", and that is the root cause of duality.” - John Tan, 2007
The stages are like a raft, it’s for the purpose of crossing over, it’s for the purpose of giving up our delusions and clinging, rather than for clinging on as some sort of dogma. It is a skillful means to guide seekers to realise their nature of mind and to point out the pitfalls and blindspots. Once realized, all the insights are actualized moment to moment and one no longer thinks about stages, and neither will one hold onto an ideation of having an attainment nor an attainer, nor somewhere else to get to. The whole luminous field of display is simply zero-dimensional suchness, empty and non-arisen. In other words, once the raft or ladder has served its purpose, it is left aside rather than carried up the shore. As Thusness wrote in 2010, "In actuality, there is no ladder or no 'no self' whatsoever. Just this breath, this passing scent, this arising sound. No expression can be clearer then this/these obviousness. Plain and Simple!" But what Thusness said here is referring to the post-anatta-realization actualization. It is easy induce a state of no-mind experience -- for example there are many stories about Zen masters giving a completely unexpected blow, a shout, a pinch on your nose out of a sudden, and in that moment of pain and shock, all sense of self and indeed all concepts are completely forgotten and only the vivid pain remains. This can induce what we call an experience of no-mind (a peak experience of no-self/no-subject) but should not be mistaken as the realization of anatta. However, anatta realization is what makes no-mind into an effortless natural state. Most of those teachers who have access to nondual experience that I’ve seen only express a state of no-mind but not the realization of anatta. As mentioned earlier, this topic is discussed further in No Mind and Anatta, Focusing on Insight and the fourth point of Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives. Hence, until the 7 phases are realized and actualized, the map is still very useful.
Thusness also wrote many years ago commenting on someone discussing Dzogchen practice as the realization of the luminous essence and integrating it into all experience and activities, "I understand what he meant and but the way it is taught (Soh: i.e. discussed by the person) is misleading. It is simply non-dual experience and experiencing presence in both the foreground and background and in the 3 states (Soh: waking, dreaming, dreamless deep sleep). That is not realizing our true empty nature but our luminous essence... ...understand the difference between luminosity and empty nature (Soh: luminosity here refers to the aspect of Presence-Awareness, and emptiness refers to the lack of intrinsic existence or essence of Presence/Self/Phenomena)... ...Very often, people rely on the experience and not true realization of the view. The right view (Soh: of anatta (no-self), dependent origination and emptiness) is like a neutralizer that neutralizes dualistic and inherent views; by itself, there is nothing to hold. So realize what right view is pointing and all experiences will come naturally. The right enlightenment experience is like what (Zen Master) Dogen described, not merely a non-dual state where experiencer and what's experienced collapses into a non-dual stream of experience. This I have told you clearly." (Updated comments: True Dzogchen teachings on the other hand is completely consistent in line with the realization of anatman and shunyata, see Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith's writings for a start https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/02/clarifications-on-dharmakaya-and-basis_16.html)
Lastly, I'll end with something Thusness wrote in 2012, "You cannot talk about emptiness and liberation without talking about awareness. Instead understand the empty nature of awareness and see awareness as this single activity of manifestation. I do not see practice apart from realizing the essence and nature of awareness. The only difference is seeing Awareness as an ultimate essence or realizing awareness as this seamless activity that fills the entire Universe. When we say there is no scent of a flower, the scent is the flower.... that is because the mind, body, universe are all together deconstructed into this single flow, this scent and only this... Nothing else. That is the Mind that is no mind. There is not an Ultimate Mind that transcends anything in the Buddhist enlightenment. The mind Is this very manifestation of total exertion... wholly thus. Therefore there is always no mind, always only this vibration of moving train, this cooling air of the air-con, this breath... The question is after the 7 phases of insights can this be realized and experienced and becomes the ongoing activity of practice in enlightenment and enlightenment in practice -- practice-enlightenment."
Also, he wrote in 2012, "Has awareness stood out? There is no concentration needed. When six entries and exits are pure and primordial, the unconditioned stands shining, relaxed and uncontrived, luminous yet empty. The purpose of going through the 7 phases of perception shift is for this... Whatever arises is free and uncontrived, that is the supreme path. Whatever arises has never left their nirvanic state... ... your current mode of practice [after those experiential insights] should be as direct and uncontrived as possible. When you see nothing behind and magical appearances are too empty, awareness is naturally lucid and free. Views and all elaborations dissolved, mind-body forgotten... just unobstructed awareness. Awareness natural and uncontrived is supreme goal. Relax and do nothing, Open and boundless, Spontaneous and free, Whatever arises is fine and liberated, This is the supreme path. Top/bottom, inside/outside, Always without center and empty (2-fold emptiness), Then view is fully actualized and all experiences are great liberation." In 2014, he said, "All 7 phases of insight can be realized and experienced, they are not verbiage. But perfection in terms of actualization in everyday life requires refining our view, meeting situations and dedication of quality time in anatta and total exertion. The problem is many do not have the discipline and perseverance."
You are welcome to join our discussion group on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/
p.s. If you like to read more of Thusness/PasserBy's writings, check out:
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives
Early Forum Posts by Thusness
Part 2 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness
Part 3 of Early Forum Posts by Thusness
Early Conversations Part 4
Early Conversations Part 5
Early Conversations Part 6
Transcript of Lankavatara Sutra with Thusness 2007
Transcript with Thusness - Heart of Mahakashyapa, +A and -A Emptiness
Transcript with Thusness 2012 - Group Gathering
Transcript with Thusness - 2012 Self-Releasing A casual comment about Dependent Origination
Leaving traces or Attainment?
Emptiness as Viewless View and Embracing the Transience
Direct Seal of Great Bliss
The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Comments section of The Buddha on Non-Duality
Why the Special Interest in Mirror?
What is an Authentic Buddhist Teaching?
The Path of Anatta
The Key Towards Pure Knowingness
The place where there is no earth, fire, wind, space, water
Transcript with Thusness - Heart of Mahakashyapa, +A and -A Emptiness
Transcript with Thusness 2012 - Group Gathering
Transcript with Thusness - 2012 Self-Releasing A casual comment about Dependent Origination
Leaving traces or Attainment?
Emptiness as Viewless View and Embracing the Transience
Bringing Non-Dual to Foreground (Thusness wrote this to me after I was having nondual experiences after I AM but before anatta realization)
Putting aside Presence, Penetrate Deeply into Two Fold Emptiness (Thusness wrote this to me after I was having a deeper insight into anatta after an initial realization of anatta)
Reply to Yacine Direct Seal of Great Bliss
The Unbounded Field of Awareness
Comments section of The Buddha on Non-Duality
Why the Special Interest in Mirror?
What is an Authentic Buddhist Teaching?
The Path of Anatta
The Key Towards Pure Knowingness
The place where there is no earth, fire, wind, space, water
AtR Blog Posts Tagged Under 'John Tan'
Update: a guidebook is now available as an aid to realize and actualize the insights presented on this blog. See https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg
Update 2: A new abridged (much shorter and concise) version of the AtR guide is now available here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html, this can be more useful for newcomers (130+ pages) as the original one (over 1000 pages long) may be too long to read for some.
Update: a guidebook is now available as an aid to realize and actualize the insights presented on this blog. See https://app.box.com/s/157eqgiosuw6xqvs00ibdkmc0r3mu8jg
Update 2: A new abridged (much shorter and concise) version of the AtR guide is now available here: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html, this can be more useful for newcomers (130+ pages) as the original one (over 1000 pages long) may be too long to read for some.
I highly recommend reading that free AtR Practice Guide. As Yin Ling said, "I think the shortened AtR guide is very good. It should lead one to anatta if they really go and read. Concise and direct."
Update: 9th September 2023 - AudioBook (Free) of the Awakening to Reality Practice Guide is now available on SoundCloud! https://soundcloud.com/soh-wei-yu/sets/the-awakening-to-reality
Lastly, I would like to mention that this article -- the 7 Phases of Insights -- refers to the wisdom (prajna) aspect of the three trainings. However, to have an integral practice necessary for liberation, there are two other components - ethics and meditative composure (see: Measureless Mind (PDF)). To have a daily practice of sitting meditation is important as part of an integral spiritual path towards liberation, although meditation goes beyond just sitting, especially post-anatta. Thusness/John Tan still sits two hours a day or more today. Even if you are practicing inquiry, having a disciplined sitting practice is very helpful and has been important for me. (See: How silent meditation helped me with nondual inquiry). Also, see this teaching by Buddha on the importance of meditative composure conjoined with insight for the purposes of overcoming mental afflictions, and his instructions of mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) here.
I understand very little of what Thusness has said. The path that Thusness describes, his insights, are his and his alone.
And yet there is recognition of truth in the words, not so much from meaning but from the essence of what is said.
What to do with what has been described?
Just allow it all to sink in deeply.
Thank you Thusness and AEN.
Signed,
JonLS
The contemplation upon “Before birth, who am I”, is similar to one of the Advaitan contemplations, such as “who am I?” It also reminds me of the Theravadan practice of anatta. These practices fundamentally collapse the identity; however, when the identity is properly collapsed one should be propelled into absorption (jhana, samadhi), or otherwise the exercise is purely an intellectual one. And indeed we see evidence of that in the following “one day, everything seemed to come to a complete standstill, not even a single thread of thought arise.” This is the second jhana, because the thoughts have come to a standstill.
However, the individual also says “There is merely nothing and completely void,” while this person may have made it all of the way to the 9th samadhi, we do not find evidence of that, so this “void” is just the void of an empty mind stream.
Then, the individual says, “I experience tremendous flow of energy being released.” Every stage of samadhi is accompanied by energy. The deeper one goes the more energy one observes. Thus, this is further evidence that the individual arrived at the second jhana. The second jhana is the first liberation, according to the Buddha, and we find indeed this individual felt liberated. “The experience is wonderful, it is as if I am totally emancipated, a complete release without boundary.” But, according to the Buddha there are 7 more. Also, it is understandable that this individual was confused by Buddhist teachings around anatta. It is because few Buddhist teachers understand it. The practice as I understand it is more related to the Advaitan contemplations than a simple rejection of self.
If I may speculate on “but somehow there is always this blockage, this ‘something’ preventing me from recapturing the experience.” I would say that if the individual would learn meditation that produces jhana and engaged in it every day for a few hours a day, this individual would most probably not only find the above second jhana attainment every day, but will most probably deepen to the third jhana and beyond.
In section 4 the individual says, he or she hear “‘TONGSss….’, the pure Sound… Then come Taste, just the Taste and nothing else….
The heart beats…..” This sounds like the individual broke through to the third jhana; however, it does not sound like it was sustained. Again, by learning to meditate skillfully then the individual could sustain the third jhana or deeper on a regular basis.
Kindest regards,
Jeffrey S, Brooks
(sámañña Jhananda)
the Great Western Vehicle • Mahapacchimayana
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/
Hi Jhanananda,
Thanks for dropping by your comments. I have a somewhat different understanding on how they are mapped to the Buddhist Anatta experience and will thus be sharing my understanding.
Thusness six stages of enlightenment are short summaries of his gradual insights into the non-dual (aka Anatta/no-self in Buddhism), empty (dependent origination) and self-liberated nature of Buddha Nature. As spontaneous self-liberation is commonly misunderstood, Thusness has always stressed that before the arising of the intuitive insights into non-dual and emptiness nature, it is best not to discuss about it. For the purpose of this comment, I reckon that only the Anatta and the strength of propensity that blinds are relevant and therefore I will just restrict the comments only on these 2 aspects.
First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html) This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend Longchen’s article http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in this forum)
That said, I never doubted the role “concentration & absorption” in spiritual practices. It is also true that the strength of uninterrupted concentration may not be there even for one with insights (especially when one have just begun to have nondual realisations and the insight into emptiness is not yet there), and it has to go hand in hand with their new found insight of nonduality for stability, and also move into various graduation of nonduality. As mentioned earlier, there are no stages/appearances that are purer than any others – every state is equally pure and non-dual in nature. When the mind grasps pure awareness as ‘formless’, ‘thoughtless’, ‘attributeless’, and as the background reality.... the ‘fabric’ and ‘texture’ of pristine awareness as ‘forms’ is then missed.
Nevertheless, whatever you commented is important especially for the first 3 (Thusness’s) stages of experience, and in these stages the problem would certainly be the lack of sustained meditation concentration as well as the tendency of trying to grasp intellectually... which is also why Thusness often emphasizes the importance of sitting and meditation plays quite a different role for a non-dualist as there is no more entry or exit point.
Within the Theravadin tradition, I understand the experience of (Thusness’s) Stage 4 which is the beginning of realising non-duality to be the beginning of the third path/stage of enlightenment (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/12/heart-sutra-model-of-four-paths.html
and http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-duality-models-of-enlightenment-by.html) and also corresponding in terms of realisations to the beginning of ‘One-Taste’ in the Bodhisattva bhumi models. From here on it is a matter of how deeply the insights of nonduality/nonself and emptiness has penetrated into our consciousness and replaced our dualistic way of knowing due to karmic propensities.
The author of the two articles (a Theravadin teacher) mentioned above also said in the Heart Sutra Model of the Four Paths regarding the third path, “That said, the concept of Nirvana now seems to generally apply to the phenomenal world as well as the attainment of Fruition, though there is still something clouding the waters. Those of third path will have a direct understanding of what is meant by non-duality, the “intrinsic luminosity” of phenomena and of “interdependence” that is far more direct and clear than the somewhat intuitive understanding of those of first and second path. This holds up quite well until they get into another progress cycle.”, and,
“It requires great deal of trust in reality as well as a fairly new realm of understanding. Paths that emphasize “surrender to the will of God” might well have an easier time with this transition. Simply emphasizing the Third Characteristic, that all things simply happen on their own, works just as well.”
As to what led to jhanic bliss, I would like to say that regardless of samatha or vipassana practices, true blissful absorptive experiences are the result of dissolution of self and subject-object split. For non-dualists, this blissful absorptive experience takes a form of clarity-absorption which is mentioned in one of the Thusness posts in my friend Longchen’s forum (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html). It is difficult to explain and I will not speculate further what that is beyond me. It should also be mentioned however at a deeper level of non-dual realisation, when true spontaneity is realised, and psychological death is complete, one will overcome the tendency of grasping on the conscious and the three states (waking, dream, deep dreamless sleep) becomes one. He will also realise that it is needless to maintain an uninterrupted state of conscious witnessing awareness when the true nature of Awareness is revealed, as Thusness and Longchen have said.
Lastly, thank you very much for sharing your valuable comments and interpretations here.
With regards,
'An Eternal Now'
Hi Jhanananda,
Thanks for dropping by your comments. I have a somewhat different understanding on how they are mapped to the Buddhist Anatta experience and will thus be sharing my understanding.
Thusness six stages of enlightenment are short summaries of his gradual insights into the non-dual (aka Anatta/no-self in Buddhism), emptiness (dependent origination) and self-liberated nature of our pristine awareness. As spontaneous self-liberation is commonly misunderstood, Thusness has always stressed that before the arising of the intuitive insights into our non-dual and emptiness nature, it is best not to discuss about it. For the purpose of this comment, I will only discuss the Anatta and the strength of propensity that blinds.
Indeed self-liberation cannot be understood before the experience of non-duality and emptiness nature of our pristine awareness. However after the stability of these 2 insights, nothing needs to be said as the ‘mere manifestations of these inseparable characteristics as arising phenomena’ is itself liberation.
First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing of personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from the arising and ceasing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related article: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html) This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To illustrate further due to the importance of this seal, I would like to borrow a quote from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html)
‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’…
If a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or takes that ‘there is just mere sound’, then this experience is again distorted. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so.
Well said! Just a little more emphasis: This is the seal of no-self and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere concept.
For a non dualist that has gained sufficient stability, practice takes a very different role. This is due to the thoroughness of seeing through the illusionary views of the sense of self, the entire mechanism that causes the split and the mechanism of how it ‘blinds’. Therefore after knowing the real cause and conditions, a non-dualist cannot resort back to a dualistic approach towards liberation and practice and meditation take very different roles. It becomes instant, dynamic, spontaneous and direct.
Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. For this is how the dual mind works. This purest state of presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous and emptiness nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend Longchen’s article http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in this forum)
‘Purest’ because it is the limit of the thought realm; beyond that is inconceivable by the conceptual mind. The mind conjures out this ‘state’ as it cannot penetrate its own depth. It does not allow itself to cease completely.
Within the Theravadin tradition, I understand the experience of (Thusness’s) Stage 4 which is the beginning of realising non-duality to be the beginning of the third path/stage of enlightenment (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/12/heart-sutra-model-of-four-paths.html
and http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-duality-models-of-enlightenment-by.html) and also corresponding in terms of realisations to the beginning of ‘One-Taste’ in the Bodhisattva bhumi models. From here on it is a matter of how deeply the insights of nonduality/nonself and emptiness has penetrated into our consciousness and replaced our dualistic way of knowing due to karmic propensities.
This is known as the ‘turning point’ in Lankavatara Sutra.
The author of the two articles (a Theravadin teacher) mentioned above also said in the Heart Sutra Model of the Four Paths regarding the third path, “That said, the concept of Nirvana now seems to generally apply to the phenomenal world as well as the attainment of Fruition, though there is still something clouding the waters. Those of third path will have a direct understanding of what is meant by non-duality, the “intrinsic luminosity” of phenomena and of “interdependence” that is far more direct and clear than the somewhat intuitive understanding of those of first and second path. This holds up quite well until they get into another progress cycle.”, and,
“It requires great deal of trust in reality as well as a fairly new realm of understanding. Paths that emphasize “surrender to the will of God” might well have an easier time with this transition. Simply emphasizing the Third Characteristic, that all things simply happen on their own, works just as well.”
Great insight by Dharma Dan!
That said, I never doubted the importance of “concentration & absorption” in spiritual practices. It is also true that the strength of uninterrupted concentration may not be there even for one with insights (especially when one have just begun to have nondual realisations and the insight into emptiness is not yet there), and it has to go hand in hand with their new found insight of nonduality for stability, and also move into various graduation of nonduality. As mentioned earlier, there are no stages/appearances that are purer than any others – every state is equally pure and non-dual in naSSSSture. When the mind grasps pure awareness as ‘formless’, ‘thoughtless’, ‘attributeless’, and as the background reality.... the ‘fabric’ and ‘texture’ of pristine awareness as ‘forms’ is then missed. Nevertheless, whatever you commented is crucial especially for the first 3 (Thusness’s) stages of experience, and in these stages the problem would certainly be the lack of sustained meditation concentration as well as the tendency of trying to grasp intellectually... which is also why Thusness often emphasizes the importance of sitting.
The first 3 stages are before the arising of non-dual insight and the purpose of sustainability is to create sufficient gap between 2 moments of thoughts to allow the sensation of contrast between conceptual/non-conceptuality for the thinking mind to realize the possibility of going pre-symbolic thereby loosening its stubborn grips of a dualistic framework.
Sustained bare attention also gave rise to the realization that ‘inner’, ‘outer’, ‘space’, ‘time’ and even ‘body’ and ‘mind’ are all mere constructs. Freeing from these constructs, also give rise to the condition for non-dual insight to arise.
For the first 3 stages, practice takes the form of striving towards a certain stage of perfection whereas stages 4 onwards, practice moves from ‘efforting’ to natural luminosity and spontaneity.
As to what led to jhanic bliss, I would like to say that regardless of samatha or vipassana practices, true blissful absorptive experiences are the result of dissolution of self and subject-object split. For non-dualists, this blissful absorptive experience takes a form of clarity-absorption which is mentioned in one of the Thusness posts in my friend Longchen’s forum (http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html). It is difficult to explain and I will not speculate further what that is beyond me. It should also be mentioned however at a deeper level of non-dual realisation, when true spontaneity is realised, and psychological death is complete, one will overcome the tendency of grasping on the conscious and the three states (waking, dream, deep dreamless sleep) becomes one. He will also realize that it is needless to maintain an uninterrupted state of conscious witnessing awareness when the true nature of Awareness is revealed, as Thusness and Longchen have said.
Well said! Speak no more and experience fully!
Rest.
A similar thing happened to me when I was young (7-8) years old. It occured one day when I had the thought thatmy name was kind of wierd sounding, so I kept repeating by name over and over (and kept on thinking "yeah it's wierd, doesn't even sound like me)...and then BAM!...everything was void, nothing existed, quiet emptiness. It was not a wonderful feeling for a young kid...sort of scary, nothing existed and I brought myself out of the trance. Afterward, I was able to get into this state on command by repeating my name. I can never forget the incident, but I can't do it anymore now that I'm 33 years old. The last time was about 2 years ago when I was half asleep, I went into that state spontaneously for some reason....strange...
Hi anonymous,
What you experienced sounded to me like an absorption or a jhana, but it is not the realisation of luminosity/pure consciousness/presence.
Thusness, I understood little of what you have said. LOL. A well-done website though.
HAHA...How can there be anything called EMPTINESS? How can it BE or not BE anything. It's EMPTY! Choose your words carefully and speak not of things that cannot be spoken of. Peace be with you :-).
Hi,
Emptiness is not a thing, but emptiness is also not a nothing. By saying 'emptiness is not ...' is simply to negate the false conceptions of what the Buddhist teachings on Emptiness is about.
Shunyata (Emptiness) means whatever appears are empty of independent or inherent existence, be it a sound, a form, or any other phenomena. This is because it is the 'interconnectedness' that give rise to the sound or experience (The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears, etc, i.e. the conditions).
Thus, whatever arises interdependently is vividly clear and luminous, but empty of any *independent* or *inherent* existence. This is not the same as nothing or nihilism.
Nagarjuna:
Whatever is dependently co-arisen,
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation,
Is itself the middle way. (Treatise, 24.18)
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a nonempty thing
Does not exist. (Treatise, 24.19)
Hmm...then I can only comment that the use of the word or at least the translation of it is terrible. When we say something is empty, it is to convey the idea opposite to there being something. Using it to mean the interconnected nature of things is just...stupid man. Excuse me if I sound a bit cynical here. There is too much word play/labeling here that is totally meaningless. Lol...Stages of experience....Hahahaha what stages? There is only the never ending flow.
John,
all of Buddhist philosophy is method, and not meant to be taken as self-existing. conceptual understanding can only be a vehicle, not an end.
The translation is not terrible because what is important is the the 'unfindability of an essence' in all phenomena phenomena, and that is what emptiness mean.
Like a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front of an observer, the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an attribute of the mind. If given a “quantum eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet empty, mere Appearances without inherent/objective existence. What gives rise to the differences of colours and experiences in each of us? Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence. This is the nature of all phenomena.
As you've seen, there is no 'The Flowerness' seen by a dog, an insect or us, or beings from other realms (which really may have a completely different mode of perception). 'The Flowerness' is an illusion that does not stay even for a moment, merely an aggregate of causes and conditions.
Lastly, reality is a never ending flow, but you can either live in that never ending flow in suffering and ignorance, grasing and self-contraction, or be liberated by insights.
I believe conceptual understanding ends the notion of an individual "I." From then on the Path towards true enlightenment is absolutely irrelevant. Some will get there through Buddhist methods. Or some will get there by playing the violin. Or some will get there in death. I think it all depends on how much tendencies the ego has built up in the past.
"Dependent arising... hence empty of inherent existence."
See it has to be empty OF something. Just putting the word emptiness has no value. You're borrowing words that were not intended for the use of describing certain experiences. It just sure as hell confuses people because they will try to put in context the word "empty." You can even say there is only "fullness." Because everything is dependently arising, everything is "full."
You can only flow with the current. Expecting it will somehow cure your suffering is itself a suffering. Only when there is no one to observe any insights can there be true cultivation of any sorts. Insights are something you become. Not something you see and theorize about.
There is only the current, no flowing with the current. When there is no one to observe any insights, the ground is already understood as the path, there is no cultivation. Therefore in Heart Sutra it is stated that there is no attainment. Insight is also not something you become, insight is awakening to what already is and there is no 'you' becoming anything, there is only what already and always is.
Thanks for sharing your valuable comments. :)
There is only the current, no flowing with the current = you can ONLY flow with the current.
When there is no one to observe any insights, the ground is already understood as the path, there is no cultivation = From then on the Path towards true enlightenment is absolutely irrelevant.
Insight is also not something you become, insight is awakening to what already is and there is no 'you' becoming anything, there is only what already and always is. = I believe conceptual understanding ends the notion of an individual "I."
I seems like there was a misunderstanding when I wrote that "Insight" is something that you become. We agree on these concepts. So what's all this nonsense about different stages. This lengthy discourse on emptiness, it is all useless jargon.
A 'You' flowing with the current is the cause of suffering. Although you see stages as useless jargon, others may find it appropriate. You hold onto an ultimate view, but what I see is a dependently originated view, simply skillful means. Lastly, awakeness is important, not concepts.
I bow to your compassionate efforts. :)
Thusness,
Did you totally give up eating meat before you started on these 7 stages of enlightenment?
Hi,
No, Thusness is not a vegetarian. Many enlightened Tibetan and Theravada masters are also not vegetarians. Thusness has been a businessman for many years and it is hard for him to avoid meat and business entertainment.
However, he did speak about benefits of vegetarianism. He told me years ago that diet is important and at one stage one will want to be vegetarian, however he still ate meat due to some circumstances. Vegetarianism will help a lot and his meditative experience told him he had to, and that fasting too is important. A lot of people do not know this. There is a bodily transformation, a crystal clear feeling, especially during/after the stabilization of non-duality in all three phases (waking, dreaming, deep-sleep). Thusness speculates that this is the cause of 'sariras' ( http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/366959#post_9218519 ) or the crystal like relics that Buddha and awakened disciples left after their parinirvana. Deep sleep (a natural non-dual samadhi) becomes crucial, however the need for sleep will also be reduced to lower than 4 hours per day.
And anyway, vegetarianism is particularly emphasized in the Chinese Mahayana texts (e.g. Lankavatara Sutra, Mahaparinirvana Sutra, etc), because of the practice of Great Compassion in the Bodhisattva path. Therefore it is highly recommended. But I would not go to say that you must be a vegetarian to have those experiences stated. There is no such requirements to realise the nature of mind.
is it a better experience being fully enlightened, compared to lesser degrees of enlightenment, and ignorance?
right now i am pretty sure i am not very enlightened. actually now i am only surrendered to the fact that i don't want to surrender to whatever is. i have developed this crazy notion that practices of meditation and such are only further resistance to what is. my theory is that all practice should be as effortless as play. so now i wait and watch, and play in whatever ways come naturally to me. most of the time i experience misery and separation.
Hi Rar Jungle, the 'degrees of enlightenment' means increasingly fewer perceptual distortions of reality. Reality always already IS, but there is usually a process of deconstructing the veils (the inherent and dualistic tendencies) through insights. So yes it is 'better' in that sense there is fewer distortions, veils, more freedom, etc.
Meditation and 'surrendering' aren't opposed to each other. Also, there are many types of meditation, so I do not know what idea of meditation you have in mind.
One of the main Buddhist meditation practice (which is really not limited to sitting) is the practice of mindfulness. You can read about it in this article: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe13.html
Separation is never actual, but due to the lack of insight into the nature of reality, we are bonded by the mental construct of separation. Lifting the sense of separation permanently requires insight, realization into our true nature. It is not that we 'enter into a state of oneness', it is not about an induced experience, rather it is that we realize that there is no duality to begin with. Misery is also related to the sense of separation.
Here's a good article from a good book 'Meditation Now or Never' by Steve Hagen at http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/341463#post_8689503
I just wanted to leave a note of thanks to you for your blog.
I came across it via a link in a discussion on newbuddist.com regarding Eckart Tolle. Tolle mentioned in a lecture that he was thinking of retiring, and I found that "thought" odd or contradictory for someone who claims to be fully in the "now". This prompted me to search on Tolle's connection with Buddhism, and if Tolle is or is not enlightened (in a Buddhist sense).
Anyhow, I am fairly new to formal mindfulness meditation practice, although in some odd way, I feel I've been practicing most of my life, and maybe much has arisen through many years of yoga practice. I see clearly that I am in Stage 3, and have been asking how to rid myself of this "I", this wall that keeps me from being in the flow of experience, of being. I now understand through reading your article, at least logically, what removal of this wall should feel like, and that it is the right question to have. Did you arrive at Stage 4 through intellect, meditation, or heart/feeling? I look forward to reading more of your posts. Namaste :)
Hi Island Girl,
Tolle may want to retire from his business and focus more on his spiritual development which is not exactly a bad thing.
As for phase 4 insight, it must come as a form of direct insight. Although I started from contemplating the stanza on “sound, no hearer” during meditation, the ‘eureka’ factor is not an intellectual progress. It is an immediate direct insight of an obvious truth that has always been there.
An important factor that prevents a practitioner that has realized the “I AMness” from being in the flow of experience is the attachment of the “I AM” as the ‘purest identity’. Practitioners are often overwhelmed and cling to that experience of pure sense of existence as ultimate. This will prevent one from experiencing the same taste of Presence in the flow of phenomenality.
Recently An Eternal Now has some interesting insights of bringing Presence to the foreground. I think it will be good for him to share his practice notes in the blog. He is serving his army now. Will tell him to update it on the blog.
Happy journey :)
PasserBy
Ahh yes someone else who gets it. Stop by and chat sometime , this is great stuff
http://burningtruedotcom.blogspot.com/
Having come from an unhappy family, happiness was the jewel of attainment for me but I was lead to investigate the "What am I?" process of Advaita for many years without much success. Now I have found the happiness I always wanted in plain old simple psychology and the direct, immediate, here & now process of simply deciding to be happy just as I am right now. No waiting, practicing, guruing, studying, meditating, reading, listening, exotic states, no-mind, no-I, no mystical, mysterious, magical, out of body, Silence, Void, or other wondrous stuff. Just the simple decision to be happy - now and not unhappy. Not that I wasted a lot of time and energy on Advaita but somehow just being happy at will right now is good enough for me and way superior to all the mystical things that never made me happy for very long. Now I can be happy and when it leaves (as all those magical states did) I can get it back right now by deciding to have it back unlike those mystical states that seem so distant once they're gone. It's such a relief to know that I have control of my condition instead of waiting, hoping and wishing for 'enlightenment' and 'liberation' etc. to somehow magically return.
Yes. Forget about enlightenment and liberation.
Be as u r now.
Be contented and remain entire.
Happy Journey!
Problem with that passerby is that the self is still intact, so that would in fact be an awful idea
From the perspective of no-self, yes you are right StepVheN. But not from a dependently originated view.
E.g. when I was practicing self inquiry to experience the "I AMness", Thusness did not disturb me about no-self. Instead he told me what are the appropriate experiences I may have and the various aspects of it.
He talks about no-self only when I ask him about it and my conditions are there. The approach has always been so.
Using this opportunity to 'promote' my own e-journal/e-book to readers here - my e-journal details my personal progress of insight, which is in many ways similar to the way those insights unfolded for Thusness (except this is a very long document containing over 300+ pages at the moment, while Thusness's 7 stages are a very condensed account of his path/progress):
http://www.box.net/shared/3verpiao63
p.s. I am not at the end of the path and though certain crucial insights have arisen, they continue to be refined in subtle ways and I will continue to update the document time to time.
Hello
after reading a lot on this blog, on KFD and Dharma overground, I am amazed by the level of attainement of the folks around these sites. Yet i have a few questions
as i am a scholar in tibetan studies i read a lot of mahayana vajrayana material. And there is one thing which preponderant in these trends of buddhism which is bodhicitta. At one point or another great vajrayana or mahayana masters experience free flowing compassion for all living beings. And it's all the time being describe as the very basis and the very goal of their practice.
But in all these websites i talked earlier it looks like compassion is only a footnote in theory and in practice. So why is that?
Is there a place for it, or as the self is dissolving feelings of any kind too, do we end up just being "harmless and happy" as AF pepole state?
My second question would be about the tantric practice: prostration, recitation of mantra, empowerment, and deity yoga.
this is never being discussed as a map model and as how it would match or not the others maps we already have. I wonder if it's because there is a vow of secrecy on this practices or it's just because there is a lack of advanced lay practitioners who could for example describe the experiential results of such practices.
In my reading i've found out that oftenly great masters of mahamudra and dzogchen still practice regularly creation and achievemnt phase yoga.
Anyway thanks for reading, i'de be happy to read your answers, i'm sorry for my english as i'm french
Hi nicolas, I don't know too much about DhO and KFD - my understanding is that they are skewed towards the Theravada tradition. Most of the practitioners are into Theravada even though they are quite open minded towards all traditions - they are a practical, pragmatic, non-dogmatic group of people.
You can have realizations but the aspiration to attain Buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings is another thing - only when you aspire to Buddhahood for sentient beings and give rise to compassion for all beings are you considered on the Mahayana path. Otherwise one can have realizations up to the 6th bhumi but then is contented with personal liberation/nirvana. That is my understanding.
I'm sure there are also a minority of Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners there who emphasize bodhicitta (even though they did not post it) and tantric practices.
For example, there was an experienced practitioner by the name of Hokai, who was a tantric/Shingon teacher. He used to be active in the old DhO but I think he no longer posts there.
Hi Nicolas,
Although I do not hold on tightly to an altruistic view but yes I believe when a practitioner fully actualized the view of 2 fold Emptiness, there is this free flowing compassion for all living beings. For lay practitioner, this aspect is not thoroughly manifested but for some great vajrayana or Mahayana masters, we witness such compassions. I do not see ‘Bodhicitta’ as a goal but rather as a natural quality of a sincere practitioner that has actualized the view of Emptiness.
As for your second question, I will divide it into 2 parts.
First is the stabilization of our experience and insight of anatta. When we mature the insight, there is just the mere activity that is going on, no self. In prostration, there is just the prostration. In recitation of mantra, there is just the recitation, the sound, the mantra.
Second, I think empowerment and deity yoga work at a different level. In meditation, there is this state of consciousness that when we calm our mind sufficiently and relax the mind and body, whenever we think, it comes in terms images and visions instead of words. It is like a dream state or trance state but the mind is still lucid. I believe the teaching of deity yoga is working at this level of consciousness. There are certain group of practitioners that finds it difficult to contemplate our nature but is strong in visualization and quick to enter in such state of consciousness. This practice will suit them better in my opinion. However working at this phase of consciousness has profound impact on our ordinary waking state of consciousness. It is advisable to seek guidance from qualified masters. As I am not a vajrayana practitioner, I do not think I am able to contribute much on this aspect. :-)
By the way just to add on to Thusness's comment - there was a discussion on tantric method and how it correlates experientially, in one of the older Hurricane Ranch conversations. It was Hokai who was explaining it and Dharma Dan was also participating in the discussion.
Thank you both for your answers.
If i can use a bit more of your time and knowledge i have another question.
Actually Free people have stated that they can't access anymore the dhyanas they used to ( see Tarin and Trent comments on DHO) ; and as you correlate actual freedom with THusness 5th stage, do you also can't access dhyana (lacking attention wave)?.
If yes do you consider your stage of realisation as one the buddha went through? and if yes, as the Buddha had access to all the dhyana until his parinirvana how is it possible?
thank you very much for taking the time to answer
Cordially
Nicolas
I asked Thusness, here is his reply: "I am unfamiliar with their terminologies. :)
If he is talking about a state of absorption, then no. One can still have access into it and must access into it. This is like what you r currently having intermittent mini Samadhi in ur daily experiences due to the direct, gapless experience of the transience. In fact as I told u many times, ur insight has run ahead of ur samadhi, U should refine this aspect but the practice will be different. The state of Samadhi is not related to concentration, rather it is a form of resting in the natural state with deep clarity of our anatta and dependently orginated nature. It is a natural ‘oneness’ with whatever that comes into contact.
"
At the beginning of the article it says: "The stages are nothing authentic." Surely Thusness means "nothing authoritative," not "nothing authentic"! It wouldn't be worth reading if it wasn't authentic.
AEN, I suggest that you make this small change, to prevent misunderstandings.
I'm thrilled by the depth and, yes, authenticity of everything I'm finding on your blog.
Cyclops
Thanks for the suggestion, will change the wordings :)
2 cents worth...
So many words to read, like the world so many ideas.
Perhaps practicing what is shared through religions or any practice is a PROCESS, a way or ways to the point.
It is not easy to explain or tell that which is, from experience, or perhaps I am just not well equipped to explain. But, by educating on the PROCESS and by DOING it, the student or practitioner will reach there by themselves.
And I read that you are going to have an ebook, congratulations. Be aware that in another time period here in this world, there are stuff not taught openly as you can observe what happened to religions and other practices. Many factors led to what it is now, at least with the fragments, a sincere practitioner will reach their desired goal eventually.
Nonetheless good effort on your part in your attempt to share.
So many words; such categories
Hmm actually I think Thusness did an amazing job at writing down his path of insights in such a short and concise way.
Interesting but I see a lack of mention of instictual passions such as anger , lust etc
After stream-entry one realizes that there is no-self. one is just like a car is. There is a car but that is just a mental construct - actually there are only interdependent parts giving the impression of a soild new thing called car. Same is the human mind-body - there are only interdependent parts.
But the question occurs - having seen that there is no-self (at stream entry ) then why .is the feeling of self still arising ? The answer immediately comes - the feeling of self that arises is because of the habitual tendencies ( which Richard from AF has much better named it as instinctual passions ) and thus one MUST go about eliminating these instinctual passions and only then and only then can the feeling of self stop arising.
Yes Unknown,
Habitual tendencies continue to surface after initial insight and that can only go after even further developments of insight and tranquility in tandem tuned towards the uprooting of latent tendencies.
In my experience, those afflictions have sort of seemingly disappeared in direct NDNCDIMOP or PCE which is effortless and perpetual, but one must never be so deluded as to think the tendencies are no longer there and no longer surface.
However, I do not believe Richard has overcome those latent tendencies.
As I wrote in my currently-61-pages article Actual Freedom and Buddhism - http://www.box.net/shared/sbyi64jrms
"...He also mentioned that in practice, one should be sincere about tendencies because it conveys the deeper disposition. For example, when I asked Thusness for his opinion on Richard’s self-confessed habit of smoking, active sex-life, etc, he talks about them as examples of ‘deeper disposition’ that will not be removed even after maturing the insight of anatta.
In fact according to Buddha’s standards, if you are still having sex and smoking, you cannot by definition be an arhant since you have already transgressed 2 out of 9 principles (the third and the fifth) that an Arhant cannot transgress due to the complete end of fermentations and the ‘deeper dispositions’ and any subtle cravings that Thusness spoke of. (see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.007.than.html) By Buddha’s standards (the commentaries, and the modern masters, and Daniel Ingram all have different standards. The Buddha, in particular, taught the Fetter Model: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakadagami , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An%C4%81g%C4%81mi , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arahant). Having a realization of Anatta does not mean you have ended the deeper dispositions.
Although it does seem that in this clean apperception, it appears untainted by any sense of a self/Self or any emotions, it is direct, immediate, experience of the senses in its purity without being sullied by any kind of afflictions. Yet this does not mean that tendencies and habits indicative of craving (though may not manifest in the form of vivid emotions of lust, etc) are still surfacing. And as the Buddha said in MN22: “Bhikkhus, that one can engage in sensual pleasures without sensual desires, without perceptions of sensual desire, without thoughts of sensual desire – that is impossible.”
(Continued)
(Omega Point in DhO, 7/19/12 made a good point on this: "Further, how can anyone say he is actually free if he isn't free from delusion or pseudo-scientific thinking? Nitrous acid mixing with nicotine creates cancer causing dust, which persists for several months and harms anyone it contacts. If being AF equates to being harmless, then how does that jive? Is that selflessness, volitionally carelessness? If it is careless is surely isn't benign, If it is selflessness then it's clearly an ethically neutral selflessness (as how could you justify that harm and claim non-neutrality, one eventually would be left admitting one was too careless to learn or that one is actually not free from ignorance and delusion) and therefor volitionally careless and ergo not benign. Does an ethically-neutral, non-benign, careless-selflessness share that much difference with an inflated sociopath who subtly reifies self and even self-identity as 'flesh and blood human being' in terms of a posteri results? If he is smoking because he is 'free' and not because he actually not-free, then does he intend on smoking? If he intends, what causes the mind to move leading to the smoking behavior? If you say it is because he thinks through and decides on principle, then what caused that thought to arise etc? One eventually sees that neurochemical impulses are to blame. Impulses in this case equates to saying it's cause is instinctual. So if he intends to smoke, he isn't free from instincts, no matter the rationalization proclaimed. If he doesn't intend to smoke then how can he be properly called free, as behavior without intent is tautologically identical to random behavior. ")"
In the state of enlightement,you need no goal.the path is the goal
www.bellofpeace gede prama org
Everything rests in the super conscious, be the world, be the sun: companion to the starry night.....knox
How does and enlightened person know they are enlightened? Is it even possible to look for something you don't know?
Bill
Seattle
It's not about "know they are enlightened", it's about doubtless certainty of one's true nature. Saying "they are enlightened" or "I am enlightened" is simply using conventional parlance and doesn't tell you what it is that is realized.
Ask "Who am I?" until there is a complete certainty of Being/Existence. Without a single thought, there is still undeniable awareness, a pure presence or fact of existence. It is not newly fabricated, it is rather ever-present but not noticed due to being lost in thoughts all the time.
I must admit I read your response with some amusement. It appears that you simply replaced “know they are enlightened" with “ doubtless certainty” and a “complete certainty of Being/Existence”. Whatever any of that is suppose to mean? So the question stands, how does one know when they have achieved any of these states?
I apologise for using “conventional parlance”, whatever that means, but it is the only language I have. Is there another? A better question to ask is not “who am I” but What am I?
Being without a “single thought” would mean that one is dead. You are thinking all of the time even when you are unaware of it. Everything that we perceive is collected by our sense apparatus, eyes, ears etc., and the brain interprets it. Our brain stores this and it becomes our memories which we can access later.
If I ask you to tell me about “trees” you can access that from the data you have collected. But if I ask you about something that you don’t know you would draw a blank. Enlightenment, G-d, the Tao, self-realization, nirvana and others all fall into this category. Since they do not exist, except abstractly in our minds, they cannot be known.
We insist on being more that “what” we are because we don’t understand “what” we are. Nature is perfect. It needs nothing. Our ability to think allows us to separate ourselves from nature and unfortunately see ourselves as being above nature.
Life has no meaning, no purpose and to be ordinary is the most difficult challenge you will face. What are you?
Unenlightened in Seattle,
Bill
Your true Essence, or Awareness, or Presence, is not a state. Even without thoughts (yes it is possible to pause thoughts) there is still the doubtless fact of Existence, Presence. This Presence is not fabricated, it is not a state that comes into existence, it is always already there but not recognised, not realized. Through self inquiry you can realise it.
You said that the sense of self leads to an illusory separation from nature, what is the experience of consciousness without separation like?
Good morning Soh,
Thank you for continuing our conversation.
“Awareness” is a simple function of the brain. While you are reading this post you are receiving 2.2 million pieces of information through your sensory apparatus. You have no choice in the matter. Your body is only interested in two things, your survival and your ability to procreate. It has no interest in an “enlightened” man.
You claim it is possible to “pause thoughts”. That is impossible to accomplish without using thought. Unless you possess a faculty (instrument) other humans do not? It’s simply a trick of the mind to engage in thinking about not thinking.
In the rest of your post, and I do not mean to be unkind, you seem to be engaging in a form of Orwellian doublespeak. If one is not careful it is easy to say a lot that means nothing. As an example you deny the self and then say, presence is not fabricated, not a state that comes into existence, that things are already there but not recognized, and only through self inquiry can you realise it. Those are empty words. We form concepts by abstracting and what we abstract can only come from our direct experience. While you are capable of thinking there is no limit to what can exist beyond our experience the truth is that there is. Do square circles exist?
“You said that the sense of self leads to an illusory separation from nature, what is the experience of consciousness without separation like?”
You nuanced it a bit differently, “Our ability to think allows us to separate ourselves from nature“. Thank you for asking for a clarification. “Consciousness” or awareness, a synonym, has no ability of its own to cause anything. “Consciousness” or awareness is like a camera that is filming a movie. It cannot be in the movie. It is only recording. Your ability to think creates the separation. I hope this is clearer?
In friendship,
Bill
Seattle
It is my experience that thoughts can be paused. If you haven't experienced that, try some meditation.
Consciousness doesn't cause anything, that would imply that consciousness existed prior to and apart from manifestation/appearance. All appearances are consciousness and there is no 'consciousness' existing in and of itself in that moment of perceiving besides that appearance. It doesn't record or film the movie, it is the movie. There is no perceiving subject apart from perceived objects. The sense of separation is not merely caused by the ability to think but more importantly the false view of subject-object duality and the false view that self and phenomena exists inherently.
Over ten years since this thread started, I have just discovered it. Thank you Soh and others, your words falling like dharma rain. Being received in soil beyond machinations of rational mind, recognized by original instinct.
"There is no perceiving subject apart from perceived objects. The sense of separation is not merely caused by the ability to think but more importantly the false view of subject-object duality and the false view that self and phenomena exists inherently." I believe a lot of modern art has been recognizing this, painting patterns and processes. Fascinating.
I will have a question soon.
Hi Samnoelpearce,
What you mean by 'emptiness' is not what I mean by emptiness, but rather it is the I AMness referred to here: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
All the best for your year 2019 too :)
“Emptiness” is a central teaching of all Buddhism, but its true meaning is often misunderstood. ... In other words, emptiness is not some kind of heaven or separate realm apart from this world and its woes. The Heart Sutra says, “all phenomena in their own-being are empty.” It doesn't say “all phenomena are empty.” This distinction is vital. The passage means that nothing we see or hear (or are) stands alone; everything is a tentative expression of one seamless, ever-changing landscape.
Emptiness is not complete nothingness; it doesn’t mean that nothing exists at all. This would be a nihilistic view contrary to common sense. Dalai Lama calls emptiness “the true nature of things and events,” but in the same passage he warns us “to avoid the misapprehension that emptiness is an absolute reality or an independent truth.” The Term is being used figuratively. "I felt 'empty' yesterday" would make no sense if taken literally.
We suffer because we grasp after things thinking they are fixed, substantial, real and capable of being possessed...................emptiness points to their impermanence. It is, like everything we think, an idea that exists only in our minds.
Happy New Year form Seattle,
Bill
Yes Bill Diaz, this is why I always stress emptiness as unity of two truths: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2018/11/emptiness-as-unity.html
"Because the purpose is to allow one to clearly and fully realize, feel and taste the moment to moment of manifestation."
Where is this "moment to moment"? What you just read is no longer here it is in the past. To say there is a "moment" or a "now" is to engage in the chatter that is the Monkey in your Mind. Your thought process allows you to believe in things that are nonsense propositions.
regards,
Bill
Seattle
What is this "natural state" you mentioned?
regards,
Bill
Seattle
I do not hold 'moment to moment' as truly existing entities but as merely a convenient label like 'weather'.
But I do not have problems with concepts at all, like 'weather' and 'moment to moment'. The problem is in treating them as truly existing entities. The problem is not merely in thinking or conceptualizing. Thinking and concepts are not in itself the problem, ignorance is, as it treats those concepts as real or referring to something truly existing on its own (such as self, objects, etc).
This will be my last reply to you Bill Diaz, as I do not think your mind is open to investing emptiness teachings on its own terms. I do not have time nor interest to engage in pointless arguments either.
14/4/13 7:35:01 PM: John Tan: When u say "weather", does weather exist?
14/4/13 7:35:20 PM: Soh Wei Yu: No
14/4/13 7:35:42 PM: Soh Wei Yu: It's a convention imputed on a seamless activity
14/4/13 7:35:54 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Existence and non existence don't apply
14/4/13 7:36:02 PM: John Tan: What is the basis where this label rely on
14/4/13 7:36:16 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Rain clouds wind etc
14/4/13 7:36:25 PM: John Tan: Don't talk prasanga
14/4/13 7:36:36 PM: John Tan: Directly see
14/4/13 7:38:11 PM: John Tan: Rain too is a label
14/4/13 7:39:10 PM: John Tan: But in direct experience, there is no issue but when probed, u realized how one is confused abt the reification from language
14/4/13 7:39:52 PM: John Tan: And from there life/death/creation/cessation arise
14/4/13 7:40:06 PM: John Tan: And whole lots of attachment
14/4/13 7:40:25 PM: John Tan: But it does not mean there is no basis...get it?
14/4/13 7:40:45 PM: Soh Wei Yu: The basis is just the experience right
14/4/13 7:41:15 PM: John Tan: Yes which is plain and simple
14/4/13 7:41:50 PM: John Tan: When we say the weather is windy
14/4/13 7:42:04 PM: John Tan: Feel the wind, the blowing...
14/4/13 7:43:04 PM: John Tan: But when we look at language and mistaken verb for nouns there r big issues
14/4/13 7:43:22 PM: John Tan: So before we talk abt this and that
14/4/13 7:43:40 PM: John Tan: Understand what consciousness is and awareness is
14/4/13 7:43:45 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:44:40 PM: John Tan: When we say weather, feel the sunshine, the wind, the rain
14/4/13 7:44:58 PM: John Tan: U do not search for weather
14/4/13 7:45:04 PM: John Tan: Get it?
14/4/13 7:45:57 PM: John Tan: Similarly, when we say awareness, look into scenery, sound, tactile sensations, scents and thoughts
14/4/13 7:47:15 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Yeah
14/4/13 7:47:25 PM: Soh Wei Yu: That's pretty clear to me
HI,
I am Javi Gomez from Facebook. I read your website to see what stages I am missing. Here are my findings of hte last 3 days.
Here are my realizations lately and comparing it with the 7 stages of enlightenment as this might help me to proceed to full awakening.
Stage 1: I AM
I am experiencing the I AM stage in glimpses during the whole day for the last 3 days. It started last year, but now it seems to spontaneously show up without me trying to get it. I experience like I am living in the mind of God, Buddha. Meditation is IT. Seshin is IT. Brushing the teeth is IT. There is no seperation between IT and brusing the teeth. The brushing experience as the moment expresses itself is inmediately God or Reality. 3 days ago I glimpsed that the God or reality was doing me. It really felt that intelligence was moving me, brushing me, breathing me, drinking of a cup me. At one point I saw my reflection in a passing Tram pass by while I was sitting. That reflection was instaneously it, therefor creating a flush of dopamine in the body sometimes, but it becomes less and less, this feeling of being blissed out and it feels like it is naturally balancing itself out. I also realize that meditating most of the time is happening without a doer. It feels like I become surrender or I am quitting my job as a human being. As it was mentioned in ATR site. Cosmic intelligence' and the 'world of experience' are 1. Same! It feels like moving the mouse while checking out the website happenes by itself. The assumed I (seeker) is also part of this intelligence. It feels soemtiems that awakening is effortlessly now without me controlling it. THe more I surrender and non do, the better. NOw it makes sense to say that the imagined doer is replaced by intelligence doing me. So seeking now becomes truth. The thought of I am the doer and I am certaintly doing something is also not happening by me. A cosmic joke played on itself. I am being breathed. I don't breathe.
I also have the sense of prostrating or dying to this moment. I suddenly become a devotee and all the suffering of the past is somehow good and healed.
The least clear point is the recognition of being this cognizant knowing thing. I know it exists while being silent sometimes, but when being active like typing I don't really see it. Right now when I read ' You have none of these for yourself or of yourself. They are all Mine and for My use only.' , I felt like crying. The hand opening was done by his will. I feel blissed out a bit while reading 'and thereby am expressing My Reality through you and through all', realizing that breathing is his will. Sucha grattitude and surrender never experienced before the I Am stage occured. I pivot out of this state many times, coming back to the I AM. 1 hour ago I lost the stage. It felt really bad to become a doer again. No matter what I did to realize no doer or I AM, I failed. SO I surrendered and in that surrender the I AM came back. That is how it works.
Stage 2:
Sometimes I realize that I am the keyboard, the tv, Messi, the scratching of the head, my dad, the kitchen, the sounds. I am not only realizing that God is htis moment. I also realize that I am the experience itself. SO instead of walking as a walker, I am the walking, the road and the breathing. I have this since today and yesterday. It does not bring bliss as I experienced this 3 years ago for 10 minutes. I became the sound of hte ventilator. But this time it is experienced spontaneously when I see that I am not the doer and when I see the I AM stage of seeing God as this moment. It is not constant yet.
Stage 3:
I haven't realized awareness yet most of the time. I lose this recognition of awareness most of hte times I am active. BUt I know it is there. I sometimes since 3 days contemplate the arising of an I in here as a hearer and seer of colors. I also investigate that awareness is the object.
Consius, what you describe as Stage 1 is not I AM but non-doership. You should continue inquiring "Before birth, who am I?" until there is certainty of what Being/I is. That is the first realization of what Awareness is.
On the other hand, non doership and impersonality and the other four aspects of I AM should be complemented with the I AM realization.
What you describe as Stage 3 is also not the Stage 3 of the 7 stages.
I would suggest to continue inquiring into what you are, what Awareness is:
In 2009, John Tan wrote:
"Hi Teck Cheong,
What you described is fine and it can be considered vipassana meditation too but you must be clear what is the main objective of practicing that way. Ironically, the real purpose only becomes obvious after the arising insight of anatta. What I gathered so far from your descriptions are not so much about anatta or empty nature of phenomena but are rather drawn towards Awareness practice. So it will be good to start from understanding what Awareness truly is. All the method of practices that you mentioned will lead to a quality of experience that is non-conceptual. You can have non-conceptual experience of sound, taste...etc...but more importantly in my opinion, you should start from having a direct, non-conceptual experience of Awareness (first glimpse of our luminous essence). Once you have a ‘taste’ of what Awareness is, you can then think of ‘expanding’ this bare awareness and gradually understand what does ‘heightening and expanding’ mean from the perspective of Awareness.
Next, although you hear and see ‘non-dual, anatta and dependent origination’ all over the place in An Eternal Now’s forum (the recent Toni Packer’s books you bought are about non-dual and anatta), there is nothing wrong being ‘dualistic’ for a start. Even after direct non-conceptual experience of Awareness, our view will still continue to be dualistic; so do not have the idea that being dualistic is bad although it prevents thorough experience of liberation.
The comment given by Dharma Dan is very insightful but of late, I realized that it is important to have a first glimpse of our luminous essence directly before proceeding into such understanding. Sometimes understanding something too early will deny oneself from actual realization as it becomes conceptual. Once the conceptual understanding is formed, even qualified masters will find it difficult to lead the practitioner to the actual ‘realization’ as a practitioner mistakes conceptual understanding for realization.
Rgds,
John"
STAGES of Realisation and FACETS of REALITY
I'm glad you pointed out that these stages are not necessarily the same for everyone, even if useful as something to check one's realisation against.
Putting aside my own experiences, this is just logical:
Since reality is always there to be realised, its obvious that one can experientially understand any of its aspects (e.g nonduality, anatta and so on) at any moment.
The one realisation that WILL change the nature of other realisations is supreme nonduality. For one thing, one understands there is no 'hidden reality' behind your experience (as was intimated above. (I call this WYSIWIG...People also often say things like "This is it").
This gives you the confidence that your realisations about ultimate reality will indeed be valid beyond your own personal experience. You know that a theorised 'other reality' not governed by the things you mentioned is not relevant, or possible in experience. Obviously there are other results too.
I would put that one dividing line between different realisations: those had after realising you are the One Stream of Being with nothing hidden or behind 'it', and those had after.
Until then you can always doubt you have truly penetrated reality.
___________________________________________________________________
SUMMARY OF WHAT'S ON THIS PAGE: using two metaphors
I also offer two useful metaphors that I believe summarise everything said about Reality on this page:
* A stream of water
where the water itself is 'Awareness'/Existence/the effulgence/the luminosity
and the SHAPE of the currents is the various forms it manifests as
(all six senses...or to put it another way: ANYTHING that changes, including the most subtle experience.)
* A fire: where the 'firey-ness' or heat is Awareness (as above)
and the various SHAPES of the flames are FORM (as above)
In both cases:
1. There is no duality: Awareness is EXPRESSED AS ever-changing FORM(s) whilever the being is in any 'realm'. You cannot separate the two. This was expressed well in the Heart Sutra (Form is 'emptiness', 'emptiness' is form).
(Awareness only experiences 'itself' without any form at all after death. It should be admitted though that the experience of meditators, NDErs, people who have taken entheogenic 'medicines' such as 5MEO DMT, and many texts do report that Awareness-in-itself IS an 'independent' principle. HOWEVER, it has no form or content of its own whatsoever. It is literally 'empty' of content - like knowing space.).
2. Form is continually changing, without any solidity or 'self' ever arising: like the ever-changing flames or the currents of water. UNGRASPABLE, UNSTOPPABLE, UNFREEZABLE. Unique in every moment.
This is two kinds of not-self:
'Horizontal': the nonduality of 'Awareness' and 'form'
'Vertical: no solidity anywhere
___________________________________________________________________
SUMMARY OF THE ESSENCE OF REALISATION
What is absolutely necessary to realise is:
- Nonduality (of 'Awareness' and 'Form')
- Anatta: that form never freezes into anything solid, is unique in every moment, is continually changing and so on.
It's nice to realise that Awareness-in-itself is an unbreakable continuity, but even if seen as/claimed as some kind of independent principle (as mentioned above in Zen and Dzogchen), it has no form or content of its own.
(Aaron Dorje, Facets of Being)