Showing posts with label Rebirth. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Rebirth. Show all posts
Why Overcome Cyclic Rebirths?
Soh

A reader’s question (paraphrased)

A reader writes that much non-dual literature explains māyā with the familiar ocean-and-waves image: each individual life is like a wave or bubble that briefly rises from the ocean of consciousness and then subsides. From that perspective, liberation is often pictured as the bursting of the bubble—the dissolution of the illusion of separateness back into the vast sea.

But, the reader continues, if we truly are the sea, then another wave inevitably forms. The ocean’s nature is to move, surge, and dance; the play of waves is not an error to fix but an expression of what the sea is. Likewise, consciousness naturally manifests as forms and experiences—it plays. This spontaneous līlā (divine play) is not opposed to truth; it is truth in motion.

Both Buddhist and Hindu traditions often motivate practice with the wish to be free from the cycle of birth and death—to stop returning, to stop taking up form, since existence is bound up with suffering. Yet, viewed through non-duality, a question arises: if there is no real separation from the “ocean of being,” how could we ever truly avoid “becoming a wave” again?

If it is the very nature of the sea to move and the nature of consciousness to express itself, then what we call reincarnation or manifestation might be the spontaneous rhythm of the infinite rather than a mistake to escape. From this angle, the reader finds it hard to feel motivated for arduous spiritual practice aimed at liberation—because if the ocean-and-wave metaphor holds, we will simply become a wave again (perhaps not here, but in other realms). So: why practice at all? The reader asks for my view when I have time, and ends with thanks for the resources on Awakening to Reality, which they found immensely helpful.


Soh's Reply:


Thank you for your thoughtful note. From a Buddhist perspective it is critical to give rise to a deep urgency to practice. Below I respond in detail, expanding key points and keeping your references intact.
1) Why overcome cyclic existence?
In the Buddha’s early discourses, saṃsāra is beginningless and saturated with dukkha (unsatisfactoriness/suffering) from top to bottom. Here is what the Buddha taught:
**“Linked Discourses 15.13
Chapter Two
Thirty Mendicants
Near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty mendicants from Pāvā went to the Buddha. All of them lived in the wilderness, ate only almsfood, wore rag robes, and owned just three robes; yet they all still had fetters. They bowed to the Buddha and sat down to one side. The same thirty monks from Pāvā visited the Buddha on another occasion when he was at Sāvatthī, occasioning the allowance for the robe-making ceremony after the rains residence (Kd 7:1.1.1). | Pāvā, a town of the Mallas, was where Mahāvīra died, plunging the Jains into chaos. (The Jains, however, say this was another Pāvā east of Nāḷandā.) Perhaps because of this, Pāvā became associated with especially ascetic monks such as those in this discourse: Mahākassapa heard the news of the Buddha’s passing at Pāvā; and sixty monks from Pāvā allied with monks of “Avanti and the south” arguing for strict Vinaya in the Second Council (Kd 22:1.7.11.1).
Then it occurred to the Buddha, “These thirty mendicants from Pāvā live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, wear rag robes, and own just three robes; yet they all still have fetters. See SN 16.5:2.1 for explanations of these strict observances.Why don’t I teach them the Dhamma in such a way that their minds are freed from defilements by not grasping while sitting in this very seat?”
Then the Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants!”
“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:
“Mendicants, this transmigration has no known beginning. No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving.
What do you think? Which is more: the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating for such a very long time, or the water in the four oceans?”
“As we understand the Buddha’s teaching, the flow of blood we’ve shed when our head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating is more than the water in the four oceans.”
“Good, good, mendicants! It’s good that you understand my teaching like this. The flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating is indeed more than the water in the four oceans. For a long time you’ve been cows, and the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off as a cow is more than the water in the four oceans. For a long time you’ve been buffalo … sheep … goats … deer … chickens … pigs … For a long time you’ve been bandits, arrested for raiding villages, highway robbery, or adultery. And the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off as a bandit is more than the water in the four oceans.
Why is that? This transmigration has no known beginning. … This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.”
That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, the mendicants approved what the Buddha said. And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the thirty mendicants from Pāvā were freed from defilements by not grasping.”** (SN 15.13). (SuttaCentral)
This sober framing is meant to stir saṁvega—urgency to end the causes of suffering (craving, aversion, and delusion), not to despair.
John Tan, 2006:
“Life is like a passing cloud, when it comes to an end, a hundred years is like yesterday, like a snap of a finger. If it is only about one life, it really doesn’t matter whether we are enlightened. The insight that the Blessed One has is not just about one life; countless lives we suffered, life after life, unending…Such is suffering.
It is not about logic or science and there is really no point arguing in this scientific age. Take steps in practice and experience the truth of Buddha’s words. Of the 3 dharma seals, the truth of ‘suffering’ to me is most difficult to experience in depth.
May all take Buddha’s words seriously.”
(Also See: On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis, and Past Lives https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/07/on-supernatural-powers-or-siddhis.html )
Another friend told me after a bout of severe illness, “It was a great experience to develop renunciation.. I’d rather die than get a body which can experience that sort of pain again.” So do not let our present relative comforts or fortunate circumstances (which are impermanent) blind us to the pains of saṃsāra that we have undergone for countless lifetimes and shall undergo again prior to liberation, and the importance for liberation from cyclic rebirth.

Furthermore, yet another awakened friend, Sim Pern Chong, who has recalled plenty of his past lives, shared that "What I find useful about the “words of power” practice I was taught is that it gives the ālaya (or subconscious—however we name it) the green light to bring past imprints into conscious awareness.
This lets me see previously blocked impressions from other lives.
Seeing scenes of murdering and being murdered, wars, and so on has given me the motivation to end these kinds of life experiences.

I also remember a life in which I was a demonic entity hunting a human as prey. I believe some events in my current life—being attacked by a demonic entity—are karmic consequences of that.

Other lifetimes can be completely different from the present one, which people with past-life amnesia can’t easily fathom. Once you actually see this, the motivation to end compulsive rebirth becomes the main priority—at least in my case."


The Buddha also compared the rarity of a human rebirth and meeting the true Dharma to a blind turtle surfacing once every hundred years and by chance placing its neck through the hole of a drifting yoke—vanishingly rare and precious, so don’t waste it (SN 56.48). (SuttaCentral)
He urged us to strive as if one’s head or turban were on fire, and taught the Fire Sermon: our six sense fields are “burning” with greed, hate and delusion—another reason to cool the fires now (SN 35.28). (SuttaCentral)
2) A Mahāyāna difference: freedom from compelled rebirth vs. compassionate manifestation
Buddhism does not posit a single eternal “ocean of consciousness” that must keep waving. What appears does so through dependent arising; when its causes (especially ignorance) cease, the effects cease. Nāgārjuna crystallizes this: “Whatever is dependently arisen, that is explained to be emptiness … and is itself the middle way.” (MMK 24:18). 
Thus, liberation (nirvāṇa) is not annihilation but the ending of afflictive processes—especially “I-making” and “mine-making.” In Mahāyāna, full Buddhahood is described as non-abiding nirvāṇa (apratiṣṭhita-nirvāṇa): no longer compelled by karma to cycle in birth and death, yet able to freely manifest out of compassion to guide beings. This coheres with the trikāya teaching—especially the nirmāṇakāya, the Buddha’s compassionate emanation body. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
From the bodhisattva path perspective, by the eighth bhūmi (the “Immovable”), afflictive obscurations are exhausted; conduct becomes spontaneous, unshakable, and naturally for others’ benefit. Appearance among beings at that level is skillful means—without suffering as ordinary beings do. (lotsawahouse.org)
Prior to the eighth bhūmi, bodhisattvas may “forget” and re-recognize their realization after their next birth (often at a young age); post-eighth, emanations are fully conscious (knowledge of true nature unforgotten) even at conception, when they freely choose to appear. In Mahāyāna and Vajrayana Buddhism, Śākyamuni’s Indian appearance is taken as an emanation of a long-awakened Buddha—consistent with non-abiding nirvāṇa and trikāya. (lotsawahouse.org)
3) Non-duality and anattā (no-self): not annihilationism nor nihilism
As you intuited, “waves” (appearances) keep playing. In Buddhism, the crucial point is how they appear: when there is appropriation (“I as seer, hearer, controller”), dukkha arises; when there is just the seen, just the heard, without a seer/hearer imagined behind it, there is peace. This is the Buddha’s instruction to Bāhiya: “In the seen, just the seen; in the heard, just the heard … just this is the end of suffering” (Ud 1.10). (SuttaCentral)
Years ago I summarized the same point in my own words: nirvāṇa is the cessation of craving, aggression, and delusion—especially the delusion of a perceiver/controller/self/Self. It is not annihilating a real self (none was ever found); it is ending the clinging process. Without this delusion feeding I-me-mine-making, compelled rebirth ends—precisely the thrust of MN 140’s portrait of the “sage at peace … not reborn” after greed, hatred and delusion are “cut off at the root, like a palm stump.” (SuttaCentral)

Excerpt: “In their ignorance, they used to acquire attachments. Those have been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so they are unable to arise in the future. Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of generosity. For this is the ultimate noble generosity, namely, letting go of all attachments.
In their ignorance, they used to be covetous, full of desire and lust. That has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so it’s unable to arise in the future. In their ignorance, they used to be contemptuous, full of ill will and malevolence. That has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so it’s unable to arise in the future. In their ignorance, they used to be ignorant, full of delusion. That has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so it’s unable to arise in the future. Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of peace. For this is the ultimate noble peace, namely, the pacification of greed, hate, and delusion.
‘Do not neglect wisdom; preserve truth; foster generosity; and train only for peace.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it. This concludes the discussion of the four foundations.
‘Where they stand, the streams of conceiving do not flow. And where the streams of conceiving do not flow, they are called a sage at peace.’ “Streams of conceiving” (maññassavā) is a unique image, allied to the notion that defilements may “stream on to” a person (āsavā assaveyyuṁ, AN 4.195:2.2). That’s what I said, but why did I say it?
These are all forms of conceiving: ‘I am’, ‘I am this’, ‘I will be’, ‘I will not be’, ‘I will have form’, ‘I will be formless’, ‘I will be percipient’, ‘I will be non-percipient’, ‘I will be neither percipient nor non-percipient.’ Conceiving is a disease, a boil, a dart. Having gone beyond all conceiving, one is called a sage at peace. The sage at peace is not reborn, does not grow old, and does not die. They are not shaken, and do not yearn. For they have nothing which would cause them to be reborn. Not being reborn, how could they grow old? Not growing old, how could they die? Not dying, how could they be shaken? Not shaking, for what could they yearn?”
 
Important nuance: In Buddhism, clarity/presence/luminosity is not denied—but it is also not reified as a metaphysical Self or singular substratum. Dependent origination itself is taught as emptiness/the middle way, which undercuts both annihilationism and an eternalistic “Presence” as ultimate substance. 
4) Addressing the Līlā / play concern directly
From a Mahāyāna lens, it’s not that “the ocean must wave again” by compulsion. Rather:
  • Compelled cycling continues so long as ignorance and karma persist; ending their causes ends compelled rebirth (dependent origination).
  • Compassionate play is the Buddha’s free, effortless manifestation—non-abiding in either saṃsāra or static cessation—appearing as needed for beings via nirmāṇakāya. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
So motivation for practice is stronger, not weaker: we practice to end suffering and to gain the capacity to truly help others.
5) What to cultivate concretely
  • Prajñā (wisdom) that sees through both “self” and “things” as inherently existent, purifying the two obscurations—(i) afflictive and (ii) cognitive (subtle grasping at inherent existence)—the twin veils preventing Buddhahood. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
  • Bodhicitta and the pāramitās (generosity, ethics, patience, vigor, concentration, wisdom), walking the ten bhūmis toward effortless, compassionate activity (to and beyond the eighth “Immovable”). (lotsawahouse.org)
6) Mahāyāna view vs. Advaita/“Brahman–Līlā” (plus explicit refutations of “universal consciousness”)
The Hindu/Advaita teaching of Brahman and Līlā differs from the Buddhist insight based on dependent origination and emptiness. In Buddhism, clarity/presence/luminosity is not denied, but we do not posit an ultimate Self, a universal Witness, or an all-embracing single consciousness-substance. Nāgārjuna’s dictum—dependent origination is emptiness; emptiness is the middle way—precludes that reification. (See: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2025/08/the-unfindable-fullness-how-drum.html )
For readers who tend to extrapolate a “Universal Mind,” the following pieces explicitly refute that view and explain why it is a subtle reification that deviates from Buddhadharma:
To echo John Tan’s comments back in year 2004~2006:
  • “Though non-duality is experienced, it is not thorough. He sank back to a source and ding dong in between. Is there Witness without conditions? Are there moments of manifestation without conditions where Witness is experienced? If there is, then it is a game. If not, then know the truth of Dependent Origination. There is a stage 6. The nature of Presence is empty.”
  • “Buddhism is nothing but replacing the ‘Self’ in Hinduism with Condition Arising. Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and eliminate the ultimate ‘Self’, the controller, the supreme. Still you must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication. And every authentication is Bliss.” (2004)
  • “The part of stage 5 must be led forward by DO [dependent origination], otherwise one will sink back to a source. Very often, this is the case. So don't underestimate the simple sentence of ‘manifestation is the source’. It is the key to non-duality then lead to DO. It must be DO that lead one out of the source. Then all broken pieces will slowly fall into place. Otherwise, we will have all those funny theories like reality is lila, a game plot of God. That is because causes and conditions is not understood, and how awareness becomes causes and conditions. When luminosity-emptiness is experienced in its total state, then it is dharmakaya. Experiencing the luminosity aspect itself is not enough. It is best not to talk about transcendental body.” (2006)
Read more context here: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/buddha-nature-vs-brahman.html . (This piece unpacks the difference between Buddha-nature and Brahman from a dependent-origination/emptiness perspective.)
7) Why practice with great urgency—now
  • Overcoming cyclic existence matters because the Buddha teaches that saṃsāra is only suffering; its beginning is untraceable and its ledger of pain exceeds the waters of the oceans (SN 15.13). Let this stir urgency, not apathy. (SuttaCentral)
  • A conscious emanation of an eighth-bhūmi bodhisattva or a Buddha does not suffer as we do; they freely manifest to guide and liberate—this is non-abiding nirvāṇa and trikāya in action. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
  • Our human birth is precious and rare (the blind turtle simile). We must practice as if our hair were on fire, mindful of death and impermanence, because conditions change swiftly and opportunities vanish. (SuttaCentral)
8) A crisp, one-breath summary (kept for convenience alongside the full exposition above)
Because saṃsāra is suffering, we practice to end its causes—ignorance and clinging. When those cease, compelled rebirth ceases. In Mahāyāna, the fully awakened do not dissolve into a static cessation; from non-abiding nirvāṇa they freely emanate (nirmāṇakāya) to help beings. This is why practice is urgent: our human life is exceedingly rare, the Dharma is available now, and we should train as if our hair were on fire, cultivating prajñā and compassion for the sake of all. (SuttaCentral)
Warmly,
Soh
Notes
  • SN 15.13 (oceans of blood), blind turtle (SN 56.48), Bāhiya (Ud 1.10), and Fire Sermon (SN 35.28) are all explicitly referenced with canonical sources. (SuttaCentral)
  • Non-abiding nirvāṇa and trikāya are grounded with accessible references; the eighth-bhūmi point is anchored in a traditional stages-and-paths resource. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
  • The refutations of “universal consciousness” are included with three specific links (ATR 2018/2021/2022). (awakeningtoreality.com) 


----

Reader’s follow-up (paraphrased)

He thanks me for the detailed Buddhist response, then adds that their motivation to practice has been blunted by multiverse ideas (drawn from eternal-inflation cosmology): if countless universes arise, similar events could recur endlessly somewhere, which can make liberation feel moot. Even so, they’re taking the advice seriously—after browsing Awakening to Reality they’ve added new books, intend to strengthen daily practice, and hope to realize the “I AM” stage soon. They note a strong conceptual grasp of non-duality but no experiential realization yet, and admit they struggle with sitting for standard meditation.

They then ask a specific question about soteriology: given the emphasis on the preciousness of human life, urgency, and liberation, which level in Thusness’s Seven Stages would actually count as liberation from saṃsāra and cyclical existence?


Soh's Reply:

Thanks for your thoughtful follow-up. A few direct, do-able pointers and some clarifications about attainments:
Practice: keep it simple and consistent
It’s advisable to do this—(1) sit daily and (2) add self-enquiry:
  1. Daily sitting — settle, quiet the inner talk, and stay. Aim for at least one sustained sit per day (work up to a solid length that’s genuinely challenging yet sustainable for you). Re-read this short piece and follow it to the letter: Quietening the Inner Chatter. (awakeningtoreality.com) It is important to practice this with regularity.
  2. Self-enquiry — add brief periods (during or after the sit) where you turn the light around: Who am I? or Before birth, Who am I? Let the question cut through story and drop you into immediacy of Beingness/Pure Presence; then rest right there. This is exactly how the ATR Practice Guide frames the early phase and its guardrails—work through the sections methodically. (awakeningtoreality.com)
It is advisable and important to also find a good awakened teacher/mentor (online or locally). This page has some recommendations and advises: Finding an Awakened Spiritual Teacher and Mentor. (awakeningtoreality.com)
On attainments: what ends saṁsāra vs. what begins the path of seeing
You asked which level “gets you out of samsara.” Using our ATR/Thusness language as a cross-walk to classical milestones:
  • Initial realization of Thusness Stages 5→7 (clear anattā through to Maha/Total Exertion and twofold emptiness) corresponds roughly to stream-entry / first bhūmi—the start of the path of seeing, not the finish line. It’s profound, but it is not liberation from cyclic existence. See: Buddhahood: The End of All Emotional/Mental Afflictions and Knowledge Obscurations and Awakening to Reality: Meaning of Stream-Entry. However, someone who has attained stream entry or the first bhumi puts an end to the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms or the planes of deprivation: only rebirths in human and deva [celestial] realms become possible from that point onwards. On the different planes of existences, see https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
  • Liberation from compelled rebirth (no more saṁsāric cycling) corresponds to something like arahantship in the Sravaka path or, on the Bodhisattva path, eighth bhūmi (Acalā) and above—where afflictive obscurations are exhausted and emanations are free, not compelled. (Mahāyāna frames full Buddhahood as non-abiding nirvāṇa.) (The Wisdom Experience)
  • For the end-point: Buddhahood = the end of all emotional/mental afflictions and (later) the cognitive/knowledge obscurations. That is well beyond first bhūmi; it’s why steady meditation and integration after insight are indispensable. (See ATR discussions and index pages referencing “Buddhahood: The End of All Emotional/Mental Afflictions and Knowledge Obscurations.”) (awakeningtoreality.com)
Multiverse & motivation (very briefly)
Even if eternal-inflation multiverses exist, your mindstream is conventionally distinct and different from other mindstreams. Buddhist practice targets causes (ignorance/clinging) for suffering and cyclic rebirth in this stream: when those cease, compelled rebirth ceases, full stop. Cosmology doesn’t change that task. What will change your life is exactly the two steps above—daily sit + self-enquiry, guided by the ATR Practice Guide, with feedback from a qualified teacher. (awakeningtoreality.com)
Liberation is permanent: once liberated, you cannot become ‘un-liberated’ again. Your mindstream is liberated from that point onwards. It then becomes possible for you to genuinely help other mindstreams in this universe and the others attain the same awakening.
On the permanency of liberation, see what krodha [Kyle Dixon] wrote:
“Author: krodha
Date: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:50 pm
Title: Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind
Content:
Mere recognition of vidyā is initially unstable because karmic propensities have not been completely exhausted, buddhahood is not one's mere recognition of vidyā though, buddhahood is the result.
Any propensities which have the potential for re-arising on the path are exhausted in buddhahood, and so the result therefore said to be irreversible. Buddhahood is described as a cessation, and what ceases is cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena.
For this reason, nirvana is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of samsara, samsara no longer has any way to arise. However nirvana is also a conventional designation which is only relevant in relation to the delusion of samsara which has been exhausted, and so nirvana is nothing real that exists in itself either. Neither samsara nor nirvana can be found outside of the mind.
As Nāgārjuna states:
"Neither samsara nor nirvana exist;
instead, nirvana is the thorough knowledge of samsara"
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol states:
"You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the ground itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree."
He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.
Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:
“Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of Samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings."
—- Source: Dharmawheel Scrapper’s Compilation of Krodha’s Posts https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/05/table-of-contents-for-malcolm.html ”



With metta,
Soh
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What Does "Ending Suffering" Mean? Why Practice?
Soh

 A good post by Krodha (Kyle Dixon):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1iw09yv/comment/mea8tri/

“Ending suffering” in a Buddhist context means ending the cycle of rebirth, that is essentially the entire purpose of these teachings. There are a lot of other implications that accompany that liberation, but that is essentially what “suffering” characterizes.

Why do this? Well these teachings state that we’ve been essentially mired, or trapped in this cycle of suffering for countless eons. Joined with and separated from friends and family, dying terrible deaths as myriad types of sentient beings, any and all types of horrors, dying of illness, dying in war, starving to death, watching loved ones succumb to these same horrors. Over and over and over again.

The Buddha awakened to realize the nature of phenomena and said that sentient beings suffer because they are simply deluded regarding the nature of things. Thus the Buddhas teach the dharma to liberate beings from the tortuous existence of samsāra.

The Samādhirāja says:

Thus the understanding of fools is a conceptualization of empty phenomena. Engaging in conceptualization, they are doomed to the six existences.

Beings undergo rebirth and aging; there is no end to their being reborn. There is no end to the suffering of skandhas that are born and die.

The suffering of birth and saṃsāra is the conceptualization of foolish understanding. This does not cease throughout eons; beings continue in saṃsāra for millions of eons.

They continue in the performance of activities, whether that of engagement or disengagement. They delight in the actions they perform, but those activities will not liberate them.

They are carried along on a river of actions, and their actions will have no end. They will die over and over, always dwelling in the realm of the māras.

Overpowered by the māras, with poor understanding, they act through being afflicted by the kleśas. They experience births and deaths that take place in various worlds.

Those various beings who are blind fools, they proceed toward death. They are killed and destroyed, and their existences are terrible.

Those with foolish understanding kill each other with weapons. By continuing with that kind of activity their sufferings only increase.

Those with foolish understanding think, “my sons” and “my wealth.” They conceive of that which has no existence and thereby continue to extend saṃsāra.

John Tan, 2006: "Life is like a passing cloud, when it comes to an end, a hundred years is like yesterday, like a snap of a finger. If it is only about one life, it really doesn’t matter whether we are enlightened. The insight that the Blessed One has is not just about one life; countless lives we suffered, life after life, unending…Such is suffering.


It is not about logic or science and there is really no point arguing in this scientific age. Take steps in practice and experience the truth of Buddha’s words. Of the 3 dharma seals, the truth of ‘suffering’ to me is most difficult to experience in depth.


May all take Buddha’s words seriously."



What Kyle posted is also similar to the sutta/teaching by Buddha that I always posted before:

https://suttacentral.net/sn15.13/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

  • Linked Discourses 15.13
  • Chapter Two

Thirty Mendicants

Near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty mendicants from Pāvā went to the Buddha. All of them lived in the wilderness, ate only almsfood, wore rag robes, and owned just three robes; yet they all still had fetters. They bowed to the Buddha and sat down to one side.

Then it occurred to the Buddha, “These thirty mendicants from Pāvā live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, wear rag robes, and own just three robes; yet they all still have fetters. Why don’t I teach them the Dhamma in such a way that their minds are freed from defilements by not grasping while sitting in this very seat?”

Then the Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants!”

“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

“Mendicants, transmigration has no known beginning. No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving.

What do you think? Which is more: the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating for such a very long time, or the water in the four oceans?”

“As we understand the Buddha’s teaching, the flow of blood we’ve shed when our head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating is more than the water in the four oceans.”

“Good, good, mendicants! It’s good that you understand my teaching like this. The flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating is indeed more than the water in the four oceans. For a long time you’ve been cows, and the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off as a cow is more than the water in the four oceans. For a long time you’ve been buffalo … rams … goats … deer … chickens … pigs … For a long time you’ve been bandits, arrested for raiding villages, highway robbery, or adultery. And the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off as a bandit is more than the water in the four oceans.

Why is that? Transmigration has no known beginning. … This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.”

That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, the mendicants approved what the Buddha said. And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the thirty mendicants from Pāvā were freed from defilements by not grasping.


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Arahants, Rebirth, Past Lives, Mahayana, Secular Buddhism, etc etc
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    Joel Rosenblum

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     tosnreSdop4 7t1s6 8t5uAc 8:gl8 t7Pg232tc252a31muMaii0uhfhit7 
    Probably already addressed here somewhere but I don't understand how stream enterers can become Buddhas. I thought stream enterers have max 7 more births and it takes eons to become a Buddha? Or is the view that if you wish to become a Buddha and you are a stream enterer, this indicates you already spent eons working on the paramitas? If that is the case, why did Buddha never encourage anyone to become a buddha, in the suttas? Seems he must have thought it would be too long and difficult...

    20 comments


    • Geoffrey Levens
    I have a great respect for Buddhist literature as a general roadmap but in the end, it’s all stories. In the real world pretty much anything can happen. (And that’s another story)


    Mr./Ms. AS
    Geoffrey Levens - Yeah, it's shocking when you really see that anything can happen at any time.


    • Tyler Cochran
    Geoffrey Levens Always helpful to remember, words are not reality, and can never express its true nature.








    • Christopher Gilbert
    I'd be curious too to see a reference to the number of births needed after becoming a stream enterer.


    Joel Rosenblum
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    Christopher Gilbertmany suttas address this. If you wikipedia stream enterer you will see this mentioned and cited also




      • Soh Wei Yu
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      AN 3.86: Sikkhā Sutta wrote:
      "[Some,] with the wasting away of the three fetters, are 'one-seed-ers' (ekabijin): After taking rebirth only one more time on the human plane, they will put an end to stress.
      "Or, not breaking through to that, not penetrating that, with the wasting away of the three fetters they are 'family-to-family-ers' (kolankola): After transmigrating & wandering on through two or three more families [according to the Commentary, this phrase should be interpreted as 'through two to six more states of becoming'], they will put an end to stress.
      "Or, not breaking through to that, not penetrating that, with the wasting away of the three fetters they are 'seven-times-at-most-ers' (sattakkhattuparama): After transmigrating & wandering on among devas & human beings, they will put an end to stress."
      AN 3.86: Sikkhā Sutta (Alt. translation) wrote:
      Even if he be unable to penetrate and realize it, destroying the three bonds becomes a human once more and makes an end of unpleasantness.
      Even if he be unable to penetrate and realize it, destroying three bonds, he goes from clan to clan, being born in two or three clans makes an end of unpleasantness.
      Even if he be unable to penetrate and realize it, destroying three bonds He limits his births to seven times the most, being born among gods or men makes an end of unpleasantness.
      SUTTACENTRAL.NET
      suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
      suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway

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    • Rick Indie
    it takes eons if you havent entered the stream yet **and** you're only following the sravakayana path. then once you enter the stream (as a sravaka only), then thats when buddhahood is only a couple lifetimes away. But if you practice vajrayana, you can become a buddha in one lifetime, no matter your starting-point. it depends on the method(s) you're using.

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    Joel Rosenblum
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    Rick Indiein that case why did Buddha never tell people to strive to become Buddhas? (in the Pali suttas)


    • Rick Indie
    Joel Rosenblum because not everybody had the merit to become a Buddha in one lifetime then, same as now. Alot of people had alot of karmic obscurations blocking them from buddhahood in that life, so stream-entry was the most feasible option for alot of people in that life. Ultimately, the goal was liberation. if the best path to liberation for you is a longer one, then thats you.

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    • Joel Rosenblum
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    Rick Indieseems that back then people were getting enlightened a lot easier than now. 500 arahants by the time of his death, i wonder why he didn't advise any of them to become Buddhas?








    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Tibetan Buddhism, and some Zen Buddhists, believe it is possible to attain full Buddhahood in one lifetime. Tibetan Buddhists may cite many modern and ancient examples of such attainers.
    Also, Malcolm: "It takes two incalculable eons to reach the eighth bhumi. One more to reach Buddhahood, according to common Mahāyāna.
    In all the śrāvaka schools, once one has attained stream entry, one will attain nirvana within 7 lifetimes."
    Acarya Malcolm Smith, being a Dzogchen teacher, teaches that Vajrayana and Dzogchen, the uncommon Mahayana system, leads to Buddhahood or rainbow body for many practitioners, in one life, else in the bardos.
    Also,
    "Nalanda wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:45 pm
    Is it mainstream/majority Mahayana view that arhats are to walk the Bodhissatva path eventually?"
    Malcolm:
    Yes, this is the mainstream view.
    Nalanda:
    Does that mean then that they are reborn (inspite of what they expected: arhats = end of rebirth) reborn as regular sentient beings to become Bodhissatva?
    Malcolm:
    This is a difficult point. Some scholars assert that, once roused from the absorption of cessation (nirodhasamāpatti), arhats are basically equivalent to 7th stage bodhisattvas and some even assert they can enter the bodhisattva path on the eighth bodhisattva stage because it is asserted that arhats are equivalent to bodhisattvas in realizing the selflessness of phenomena that is the absence of inherent existence.
    Other scholars assert that once roused from the absorption of cessation (nirodhasamāpatti) arhats must begin at the beginning of the Mahāyāna path of accumulation since they have not generated Mahāyāna bodhicitta nor have they realized the profound emptiness free from extremes. I personally favor the latter position because the Abhisamayālaṃkāra clearly describes the superiority of the hearing and reflection on signlessness in the Mahāyāna path of accumulation, and so on. Gorampa summarizes it as follows in his Moonrays:
    Therefore, in our own system of Madhyamaka, although the selflessness of the three yānas is equivalent, the difference between whether freedom from proliferation, the two accumulations, the ultimate nature and reality are realized or not realized is clear in all Madhyamaka textual systems.
    Basically, arhats have a subtle grasping to true existence because they do not realize four-fold signlessness. Since they have this subtle grasping to true existence, they continue to grasp a self. Because they continue to grasp a self, they accumulate action. And since they continue to accumulation action, they can continue to take birth, having been roused from nirodhasamāpatti. And because of this arhats, in order to realize buddhahood, must begin at the beginning of the Mahāyāna path of application where one reviews through hearing and reflection signlessness, etc.
    After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
    DHARMAWHEEL.NET
    After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel
    After enlightenment, can a Buddha return/manifest/emanate to samsara? - Page 2 - Dharma Wheel

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    Joel Rosenblum
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    Soh Wei Yuthis is veryyy interesting to me. Prior, i thought that Mahayanists all believed that what is taught in the Pali suttas is correct, but it is incomplete. Now, i see that a large part of Mahayana teaching directly ccontradicts the suttas w/r/t no rebirth for arahants and other things. Those arahants are in for a big surprise i guess!!! 😂😂😂😂


    Soh Wei Yu
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    Joel Rosenblum
    All Mahayanists do believe that arahats overcome rebirth, but the first kind of rebirth. There are two kinds.
    Eighth bhumi bodhisattvas and arhats overcome the first kind (‘discontinuous death’ (S. pariccheda-cyuti, C. fenduan si 分段死), the death that happens repetitively in the revolution of lifetimes of restricted length.) while Buddhas overcome the second.
    “
    In describing the manomaya-kāya as the special body of the three types of beings, i.e., arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas-of-great-power, the Śrīmālādevī Sūtra says that these beings are subject to a special type of death, ‘inconceivable transformative death’ (S. acintya-pāriṇāmikī-cyuti, C. busiyi bianyi si 不思議變易死), whereas ‘the sentient beings who have reconnection (S. pratisaṃdhi) [of their lives]’ (viz., the sentient beings who are subject to rebirth) are subject to ‘discontinuous death’ (S. pariccheda-cyuti, C. fenduan si 分段死), the death that happens repetitively in the revolution of lifetimes of restricted length.
    There are two types of ‘death’. What are the two? They are [the ordinary] ‘discontinuous death’ (S. pariccheda-cyuti, C. fenduan si 分段死) and ‘inconceivable transformative death’ (S. acintya-pāriṇāmikī-cyuti, C. busiyi bianyi si 不思議變易死). The discontinuous death belongs to the sentient beings who have reconnection (S. pratisaṃdhi); the inconceivable transformative death belongs to the mind-made
    explanation of the passages in the context of the texts, see Tokiwa 1995. Also see Radich 2007, 281–283.
    30. 捨於世間中 所取能取見 轉依離麁重 智慧不思議 十種意生身 眾妙為嚴好 作三界之主 而來密嚴國 (大乘密嚴經 T681 728a10–13). The Sanskrit original of this text is not extant.
    31. Since the passage on the manomaya-kāya in the *Anuttarāśraya Sūtra’s (佛說無上依經 T 669 472a24–b05) is relatively short and mostly included in the equivalent part of the Foxing lun, I will confine my research to the Ratnagotravibhāga Śāstra and the Foxing lun among these three related texts. body (manomaya-kāya) of arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas-of-greatpower, up to their reaching ‘the ultimate supreme enlightenment’ (C. jiujing wushang puti 究竟無上菩提).
    The sūtra continues to say that the reason why the manomaya-kāya of the arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas-of-great-power are subject to the ‘inconceivable transformative death’ is because they still have uneliminated defilements. In other words, the Śrīmālādevī Sūtra describes the manomaya-kāya of these special beings as a sort of remaining undesirable existence resulting from the non-completion of their spiritual development. Indeed, the sūtra connects the manomaya-kāya with a specific type of defilement, that is, ‘entrenched ignorance’ (S. avidyāvāsa-bhūmi, C. wuming zhudi 無明住地), the most fundamental type of defilement, whereas it associates the beings of the three realms with the defilement of ‘grasping’ (S. upādāna, C. qu 取):
    With grasping as condition and contaminated activities (S. sāsrava-karma, C. youlou ye 有漏業) as cause, there arise [[[existence]] in] the three realms. In the same way, with entrenched ignorance as condition and uncontaminated activities (S. anāsrava-karma, C. wulou ye 無漏業) as cause, there arise the three types of the manomaya-kāya belonging to the arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas-ofgreat-power.
    Here the mode of being of the three types of beings — arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and bodhisattvas-of-great-power — is described in contrast with existence in the three realms, and thus we may say that they are the beings who are freed from the three realms. These beings, however, are depicted as still imperfect, due to being still affected by ignorance.
    Such a view in the Śrīmālādevī Sūtra of the manomaya-kāya as the ‘body’ of a spiritually developed but still imperfect being is also explicated in the Ratnagotravibhāga Śāstra. Associating the manomaya-kāya with the four kinds of ‘impediments’ (S. paripantha), the Ratnagotravibhāga Śāstra describes the manomaya-kāya of the three types of beings as a defective mode of existence, which has not obtained the four kinds of ‘supreme virtue’ (S. guṇa-pāramitā) of the Dharma-body of the Tathāgata:” - http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=The_Meaning_of_%E2%80%98Mind-made_Body%E2%80%99_(S._manomaya-k%C4%81ya,_C._yisheng_shen_%E6%84%8F%E7%94%9F%E8%BA%AB)_in_Buddhist_Cosmological_and_Soteriological_systems
    TIBETANBUDDHISTENCYCLOPEDIA.COM
    The Meaning of ‘Mind-made Body’ (S. manomaya-kāya, C. yisheng shen 意生身) in Buddhist Cosmological and Soteriological systems - Tibetan Buddhist Encyclopedia
    The Meaning of ‘Mind-made Body’ (S. manomaya-kāya, C. yisheng shen 意生身) in Buddhist Cosmological and Soteriological systems - Tibetan Buddhist Encyclopedia

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Joel Rosenblum the Mahayana scripture Lankavatara Sutra states, “...Therefore, Mahamati, the assurances given to shravakas and bodhisattvas do not differ. Mahamati, what doesn’t differ is the taste of liberation when shravakas and pratyeka-buddhas or buddhas and tathagatas get rid of the obstruction of passion, not when they get rid of the obstruction of knowledge. Mahamati, the obstruction of knowledge is purified when they see that dharmas have no self. The obstruction of passion is removed prior to this when they become accustomed to seeing that persons have no self. It is when the seventh consciousness ceases that they are liberated from the obstruction of dharmas. And it is when the habit-energy of the repository consciousness ceases that their purification is complete.”


    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Malcolm: " No one doubts that the Mainstream Buddhist path brings about freedom, in the sense of full freedom from afflictions, that is the awakening of an arhat or a pratyekabuddha. But that is not the awakening to which Vajrayāna refers. The awakening to which Vajrayāna refers is the full buddhahood that results from gathering the two accumulations as taught Mahāyāna. The bodhisattva path is not detailed in any of the Mainstream canons. For the Mainstream canons, it is extra-canonical."


    • Mr. WA
    Soh Wei Yu This feels like total nonsense. Like, no better than any of the dogma you'll find in Catholicism or elsewhere. This stuff was always meant metaphorically, not literally, and it is the downfall of our age that we interpret metaphors as literal "objective" truth. The problem with this is it is so un-credible that it actually casts doubt on the entire realization process for someone trying to figure out if there's anything "real" in all this enlightenment business. Faith is required to set out on this path seriously, and in my controversial opinion is that this kind of stuff is super destructive to building that faith and trust with those entering the spiritual path.


    Soh Wei Yu
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    Most of us in AtR group believe in literal rebirth, and many have recalled past lives and verified its validity.
    On the other hand, Malcolm also said it is not a requirement to believe in rebirth. His point is that you can receive and practice Dzogchen teachings without believing in rebirth, and then at some point when your practice matures you will recall your past lives, verify rebirth/karma/etc.
    As Malcolm also said this year, " Belief is just belief. One can believe anything, like the Red Queen, believing 100 impossible things before breakfast.
    The point of Buddhadharma is verification. The Buddha invites us to verify his claims, testing them as a goldsmith examines a piece of gold. When one has tested something one believes might be gold, and finds out it either is gold or not, then there is no ore reason for the belief.
    As far as jatakas go, these are just so stories for moral edification. It is not necessary to believe they are actually past lives of the Buddha, just as it is not necessary to believe sutras and tantras are the literal words of the Buddha which sprang out of his living mouth.
    All that matters is that one recognizes the three afflictions drive karma, which results in suffering. And if one is a Mahayani, to have a commitment to benefit sentient beings in whatever ways one can. If one believes in rebirth, so much the better, but it isn’t necessary."


    • Mr. WA
    Soh Wei Yu Fair enough, I'm definitely in agreement about ending suffering and helping others. I'm pretty agnostic on the past lives part... it makes some intuitive sense and I know some people recall them, but even if they do it's not "proof", just an experience. If you start using temporary experiences as proof of reality you'll be in the same territory as crazy people and psychedelic messiah's. But these texts go well beyond statements about rebirth being a thing... they go into intense detail on numbers of lives and levels and heavens and the 4 this and the 20 that. There's absolutely no way anyone could know that stuff. It's pure religiousity, and that is in such epistemological conflict with the rest of realization (whose cornerstone is direct, continuous, undeniable experience), that it feels like a massive betrayal when people you trust start seriously talking about it. I'm sorry to react so strongly, but someone needs to call out this stuff. The human mind is so easily enslaved by belief, and this most assuredly IS just belief, even if it exists within Buddhist texts. I feel this causes real harm. If I'd seen this discussion 5 years ago I would have dismissed the entire path as nonsense. That would be a terrible shame.


    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Mr. WA My view is that it is possible to find out for yourself, and I believe most of us here agree that it is possible to find out for yourself. I am not a secular Buddhist. This is why Buddha taught the three knowledges: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN36.html
    Also:
    [5/12/15, 8:23:33 PM] John Tan: Go read Dr. Sam Parnia
    [5/12/15, 8:26:27 PM] John Tan: He is very good like Ian Stevenson...a dr, cardiologists unlike a psychiatrist ...that deals with death everyday ... Dealing with cardio arrest and pronounced clinically dead...and a respected person in his field
    [5/12/15, 8:31:51 PM] John Tan: Instead of Sam Harris
    [5/12/15, 8:31:53 PM] John Tan: Lol
    [5/12/15, 8:31:59 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
    [5/12/15, 8:32:11 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Am going to get ian stevensons book
    [5/12/15, 8:33:20 PM] John Tan: Just like when u do research on past life experiences documented by ian Stevenson and his assistant ... Read his assistant account...his assistant dead if I m not wrong just to get some real account
    [5/12/15, 8:33:30 PM] John Tan: Not those kind of bullshit
    [5/12/15, 8:34:54 PM] John Tan: Obe and nde r not those seeing light tunnels ... Feeling peaceful...or passing electricity to pineal gland region to induce certain experience ...
    [5/12/15, 8:35:43 PM] John Tan: I m interested in those accounts that dr Sam Parnia is talking abt
    [5/12/15, 8:37:45 PM] John Tan: Where blood stop...brain activities stop...there is no possibility of any registering of memories or any sensory function because it is clinically impossible because he is a cardiologist and dealing with how to get ppl back to life ... He needs to know all sort of signs there and then...
    [5/12/15, 8:38:34 PM] John Tan: We r talking abt life and death trying resuscitate life in emergency room...lol
    [5/12/15, 8:39:11 PM] John Tan: Not as an academician taking abt this and that as a story
    [5/12/15, 8:43:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [5/12/15, 8:49:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sam harris said about ian stevensons,
    [5/12/15, 8:49:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: elaborate fraud, or something interesting is going on," Harris says. "Most scientists would say this doesn't happen. Most would say that if it does happen, it's a case of fraud. ... It's hard to see why anyone would be perpetrating a fraud -- everyone was made miserable by this [xenoglossy] phenomenon." Pressed, he admits that some of the details might after all be "fishy."
    [5/12/15, 8:50:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Either he is a victim of truly elaborate fraud, or something interesting is going on," Harris says. "Most scientists would say this doesn't happen. Most would say that if it does happen, it's a case of fraud. ... It's hard to see why anyone would be perpetrating a fraud -- everyone was made miserable by this [xenoglossy] phenomenon." Pressed, he admits that some of the details might after all be "fishy."
    [5/12/15, 8:51:02 PM] John Tan: Meaning?
    [5/12/15, 8:51:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think he thinks ian stevesons study might convincingly suggest reincarnation but still hs his doubts
    [5/12/15, 8:55:27 PM] John Tan: There will always b doubt becoz he is a sceptic ...
    [5/12/15, 8:56:45 PM] John Tan: And Ian Stevenson books r scientific studies, not science. He is a scientist but understand that science cannot prove anything like that besides verification.
    [5/12/15, 8:58:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [5/12/15, 8:59:16 PM] John Tan: How is one to prove past life except by verification? Unlike OBE experiences, where medical definition of "death" is clear and ppl start resuscitating ppl back to life... Hearing true expert in the field is imp.
    [5/12/15, 9:41:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [5/12/15, 9:42:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I guess the problem with obe is they may cast doubt whether the obe happened moments before of after the medical death. but i dont see how they can explain things like witnessing medical procedures accurately in obe
    [5/12/15, 9:43:26 PM] John Tan: Not what u to think lah
    [5/12/15, 9:43:47 PM] John Tan: Go listen to Sam parnia in YouTube
    [5/12/15, 9:43:56 PM] John Tan: There r some that I like
    [5/12/15, 9:44:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. ok
    [5/12/15, 9:45:35 PM] John Tan: There r only 3 ways, one is respected expert and one u, by religious faith and lastly practice experience urself.
    [5/12/15, 9:46:25 PM] John Tan: Sceptical is as bulshiting as taking by faith to me.
    [5/12/15, 9:46:39 PM] John Tan: My approach is neither
    [5/12/15, 9:46:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [5/12/15, 9:47:06 PM] John Tan: Practice and listening to respected experts
    [5/12/15, 9:49:14 PM] John Tan: I also like dr Peter Fenwick
    [5/12/15, 9:57:01 PM] John Tan: There is another one Dr Pim Van Lommel
    ...
    [3/12/15, 11:28:10 AM] John Tan: Supernatural is true
    [3/12/15, 11:28:47 AM] John Tan: But it is a complex issues and must b in line with science.
    [3/12/15, 11:29:11 AM] John Tan: Overclaiming is the problem
    [3/12/15, 11:30:39 AM] John Tan: Shamanism is one area I m always studying...but always involved in plants having psychedelic content in an extreme way.
    [3/12/15, 11:32:17 AM] John Tan: I prefer yoga and meditation. Oneness experience is a daily activity to me and intensity is there due to yoga and meditation. However to involve and control, visualization and concentration is key.
    [3/12/15, 11:34:47 AM] John Tan: Non-dual is doing away with the boundaries that r artificially created by the dualistic paradigm...but to invoke and control consciousness, u need to master concentration and visualization.
    [3/12/15, 11:37:25 AM] John Tan: Modern practitioners r not strong in this area due to lack of discipline and perseverance. So seldom we see results...making claims without right and genuine knowledge is unwise and unhelpful.
    [3/12/15, 12:16:08 PM] John Tan: Interesting article but I no more see consciousness as an entity
    [3/12/15, 12:18:52 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. ya dharma dan say he could visualise colours get into jhana and put out a flame via his intention and other siddhis like remember past life
    [3/12/15, 12:20:41 PM] John Tan: Concentration is a mental skill just like exercises...yogic Siddhis cannot b accomplished without mastering concentration.
    [3/12/15, 12:21:12 PM] John Tan: In almost all energy practices, this skill is required.
    [3/12/15, 12:22:29 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [3/12/15, 12:22:51 PM] John Tan: But I m not into that, I prefer clarity over concentration for now...
    [3/12/15, 12:23:06 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
    [3/12/15, 12:26:46 PM] John Tan: I believe intensity of luminous clarity can also alter the energetic frequencies or vibrations but may not b th right approach as compared to concentration and visualization which is much more rich and elaborate in this area.
    [3/12/15, 12:31:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
    [3/12/15, 12:48:46 PM] John Tan: For u now u r still young. Focus on ur body and health and improve ur clarity.
    [3/12/15, 12:49:12 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. ok
    [3/12/15, 12:51:06 PM] John Tan: Ur new house has a place for urself where u can hv a quality time to get in touch with ur bodily sensations in an intimate way....not just going through the steps but get in touch ...
    MN 36  Mahā Saccaka Sutta | The Longer Discourse to Saccaka
    DHAMMATALKS.ORG
    MN 36  Mahā Saccaka Sutta | The Longer Discourse to Saccaka
    MN 36  Mahā Saccaka Sutta | The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

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    • Soh Wei Yu
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    Two obscurations (Tib. སྒྲིབ་པ་གཉིས་, dribpa nyi; Wyl. sgrib pa gnyis) — emotional and cognitive obscurations.
    ● Emotional obscurations are defined according to their essence, cause and function.
    In essence, they are the opposite of the six paramitas, as described in the Gyü Lama:
    "Thoughts such as avarice and so on,
    These are the emotional obscurations."
    Their cause is grasping at a personal ego, or the “self of the individual”.
    They function to prevent liberation from samsara.
    ● Cognitive obscurations are also defined according to their essence, cause and function.
    In essence, they are thoughts that involve the three conceptual ‘spheres’ of subject, object and action. The Gyü Lama says:
    "Thoughts that involve the three spheres,
    These are the cognitive obscurations."
    Their cause is grasping at phenomena as truly existent, or, in other words, the “self of phenomena”.
    Their function is to prevent complete enlightenment.”
    ——-
    Also:
    "PATHS TO ENLIGHTENMENT
    What follows is a short explanation of the way Mipam presents the structure of the Buddhist path to awakening. According to him, we can only go so far in the Lesser Vehicle, realizing the lack of a personal self based on its path, but without the Great Vehicle, we will not come to fully realize the lack of self (that is, emptiness) with respect to all phenomena. In other words, those in the Lesser Vehicle realize only part of emptiness (the lack of a personal self) but do not realize the entire scope of emptiness. They hang on to an ultimate foundation of reality (the fundamental elements of reality, or dharmas), whereas there is actually no such foundation. Therefore, according to Mipam, one cannot become a buddha based solely on the Lesser Vehicle path; becoming a buddha is the result of the Great Vehicle. Nevertheless, realizing the lack of a personal self is enough to free us from samsara, because in doing so, we relinquish the obscurations of the afflictive emotions. The afflictive emotions can be included within the “three poisons” of attachment, aversion, and delusion.
    These afflictive obscurations function to prevent liberation, and they are tied in with the apprehension of a personal self. Based on the notion of such a self, we become attached (to me and mine) and averse (to what is other). This notion of self keeps the wheel of samsara rolling, because it perpetuates the distorted framework through which we selfishly act out attachment and aversion, thus sowing the seeds of suffering. Afflictive obscurations have two aspects: a gross, imputed aspect and a more subtle, innate aspect. According to Mipam, the imputed aspects are relinquished on the first “ground” (Tib. sa, Skt. bhūmi) when you directly perceive the suchness of reality. This experiential realization is called “the path of seeing.”
    The imputed aspects of the afflictive obscurations are learned and not inborn like the innate aspects. Imputed aspects involve distortions that are explicitly conceptual, as opposed to the perceptual distortions that comprise the innate aspects. The difference between the imputed and innate aspects can be understood as something like the difference between software and hardware: the innate aspects are embedded more deeply in one’s mind-stream and are thus more difficult to eliminate. Imputed ego-clinging refers to imputing qualities to the self that are not there—namely, apprehending the self as a singular, permanent, and independent entity. This is overcome on the first bodhisattva ground in a direct, nonconceptual experience of reality that is the culminating insight of analysis. Nevertheless, the more subtle, innate aspect of ego-clinging hangs on.
    The innate ego-clinging, as the bare sense of self that is imputed on the basis of the five aggregates, is more difficult to remove. Rather than construing qualities to the self such as singularity or permanence, it is a more subtle feeling of simply “I am” when, for instance, we wake up in the morning. This innate sense of self is a deeply rooted, instinctual habit. It thus involves more than just imputed identity; it is a deeper experiential orientation of distorted subjectivity. Although analysis into the nature of the self paves the way for it to be overcome, it cannot fall away by analysis alone. Rather, it has to be relinquished through cultivating the path of meditation. According to Mipam, there are no innate aspects of the afflictive obscurations left on the eighth ground. However, the afflictive emotions are only one of two types of obscurations, the other being cognitive obscurations.
    Cognitive obscurations are nothing less than conceptuality: the threefold conceptualization of agent, object, and action. Conceptuality is tied in to apprehending a self of phenomena, which includes mistaking phenomena as real, objectifying phenomena, and simply perceiving dualistically. Such conceptualization serves to obstruct omniscience. Based on the Great Vehicle, these cognitive obscurations can be completely relinquished; thereby, the result of the Great Vehicle path culminates in not merely escaping samsara, as in the Lesser Vehicle, but in becoming an omniscient buddha. According to Mipam, up to the seventh ground, the realization (of the twofold selflessness) and abandonment (of the twofold obscurations) are the same in the Great and Lesser Vehicles.
    As with the Great Vehicle, he maintains that accomplishing the path of the Lesser Vehicle entails the realization of the selflessness of phenomena, to see that phenomena are empty. Those who accomplish the Lesser Vehicle path also realize the selflessness of phenomena, because their realization of emptiness with respect to a person is one instance of realizing the emptiness of phenomena. The final realization of the Lesser Vehicle path, however, is incomplete. Mipam compares it to taking a small gulp of the water of the ocean: we can say that those who realize emptiness in the Lesser Vehicle have drunk the water of the ocean, just not all of it.150 The final realization of the bodhisattva’s path in the Great Vehicle, however, is the full realization of emptiness, like drinking the entire ocean.
    - Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teachings"
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    • Alejandro Serrano
    Perhaps the Buddha never encouraged anyone to become a Buddha because he considered arhatship an irreversible path to buddhahood, or buddhahood itself. Perhaps no self establishment of self includes the non establishment of all phenomena.

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