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Important Notice: Although anatta/anatman means no-self, most of the time when someone has certain breakthrough into "no self", it does not mean the real insight into anatman that Buddha taught or the AtR's anatman. Usually it just means impersonality or substantiated nondual. For more information on the different kinds of no-self, please read Soh's article in the AtR must read panel: 5) Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
John Tan's advise:
As for those layman practitioners that for some reasons still prefer to go on their own asking for some general guides post anatta insights, I think they can focus on the 5 following points:
1. Extend the insight of anatta, the de-reification process to all events and phenomena. MMK comes handy here. It will help one investigate most of the subtle assumptions we held to be "true" in a hypnotic way.
2. Open up our body and go deeply into body-awareness. This is critical imo. Less intellectual activities and more body-awareness. Post anatta and along the path, due to the de-construction process, the energy released from unconscious holding of our mental constructs can be quite overwhelming. It may also be due to other reasons, for example, attachment to non-dual experiences and as a result it will cause discomfort to both our mind and body.
3. So opening up our body is key at this phase. The imbalance can be released by massage, non-inflammatory diet, qi gong, tai chi movements, yoga or any other body awareness exercises. Just open up our body and bring awareness to our body to complement the anatta insight and less intellectual activities.
4. If after that, the practitioner can intuit directly the relationship between mind, prana and body and wish to pursue his knowledge further on how the energy system works, they can then look for experienced teachers in this space to guide them. U r not into this, hence, do not advise ppl on what u r unsure and have no experience.
5. Lastly, bring the insight of anatta into our daily activities, meet conditions and engage.
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“Although the yuan yin lao ren wrote about relative nature of appearances and emptiness, radiance as appearances, the part on "named things"or reified constructs wasn't mentioned. You go check whether are there any insights on 假名。
Also see whether are there any articles on meditation.
物非实有，只是假名。Then from "named things" one understands "non-arising". Although it can also be understood from radiance perspective.
—-
John Tan:
Actually after authenticating appearances are radiances, I see the next most important step is to arise insight of DO (dependent origination) and emptiness. It is a sort of special insight that sees the "middle path" and we use this insight to re-orientate our conventional world view and understand 8 extremes do not apply.”
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Also see: Self and phenomena as a learnt, reified concept
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2012 Post anatta advise to Taiyaki:
+A and -A Emptiness (On the two experiential insights involved in Thusness Stage 6)
Last year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a. Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.
Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:
"There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:
1. First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.
2. First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.
3. First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.
4. Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same "emptiness view" of Self/self.
5. From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by "thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.
6. "Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct "physical".
7. There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy, luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing 'mental constructs'.
8. Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.
9. No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something, no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless unobstructed-interpenetration."
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On another occasion, Thusness wrote (not to Taiyaki):
...Like after anatta, as I have said many times the sense of externality and physicality can still be very strong. My deconstruction process of "externality" and "physicality" is actually based few questions: 1. Why is mind which is "mental" is able to "interact" with something "physical"? 2. Why does consciousness need conditions for its arising? 3. What is interaction? All these questions help stabilized my experiences when I penetrated them in my own way.
Illusion like realization (arose) when I contemplated "hereness" and "nowness" until my mind was able to intuit the logic behind all these, then experience becomes stable. However one can enter by experience to have a taste of it...
Labels:
Anatta,
Dropping,
Emptiness,
Maha
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“Ultimately, the basis is free from all elaborations, no mind, no consciousness, no conditions therefore no DO, no emptiness...no line of demarcation can be drawn.
For a practitioner that has anatta insight, there is no issue on freedom from all elaborations of the ultimate, It is how the conventional is understood that is difficult.” - john tan months ago
—-
“Yes, I think should add together as they represent the 2 different view of emptiness.
Freedom from all elaborations and freedom from self-nature.
Yeah I included the two. One is freedom from all elaboration, one is spacious dream-like nature, lack of self-nature as emptiness.” - jt 2022
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Robert Dominik Tkanka since André A. Pais mentioned about fire, let's take "fire" as an example,
When we look at "fire", there is a vision of a yellow, orange color image --> vision consciousness;
When we touch the "fire", there is a hot sensation --> sensation consciousness;
From these 2 different streams of consciousness, an imputing-consciousness abstracts and reifies a "fire" entity where there is none. Out of nowhere, an objective, independent "fire" is being created.
We then characterized this "heat sensation" by ascribing it to "fire" and made "fire" a bearer of characteristic and "heat" becomes it's essential nature where it has an inherent power to cause something to burn (essential causality).
But there is "no fire" as an entity that has the essential power to cause anything to burn; there is no self existing "heat" either; "fire" is a dependent arising; "heat" is a "dependent arising"; so:
1. What is dependent arising and
2. What is dependently originating?
Now in this example, what is involved in "ignorance" in relation to seeing self-nature:
1. an extra reified entity is created;
2. consciousness is being forgotten and excluded from the equation of understanding "reality" which is most crucial.
3. dependent arising is not seen, instead it is replaced by essential causality;
Anatta insight sees through 1, authenticated 2 but 3 is not seen (imo) but we jumped straight into freedom from all elaborations.
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“It is not simply about freeing from elaborations and we r left with with the world also. Nor is it simply about experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern.
Look at the scenery, so lurid and vivid;
Is the "scenery" out there?
Feel the "hardness" of the floor;
Is this undeniable "hardness" out there?
If "hardness of the floor" aren't out there, are is "inside" the brain? There is no "hardness" in the brain u can locate in the parts that make up the experience of "hardness".
It is not even in the "mind" for u can't even find "mind" then how can "in" the mind be valid?
If "hardness" isn't external nor internal, then where is it?
So, to me, buddhism is not about helping one taste presence or into an effortless state of non-dual or into a state free of conceptualities but also points out this fundamental cognitive flaw that confuses the mind. This is more crucial. If the cognitive fault isn't uprooted and seen through, then all experiences regardless of how mystical and profound will be distorted.
It is not simply about freeing from elaborations and we r left with with "the world" also. Nor is it simply about experiencing presence and non-dual, they aren't the main concern.
Look at the scenery, so lurid and vivid;
Is the "scenery" out there?
Feel the "hardness" of the floor;
Is this undeniable "hardness" out there?
If "hardness of the floor" aren't out there, is it "inside" the brain? There is no "hardness" in the brain u can locate in the parts that make up the experience of "hardness".
Then we say "no", it is in the "mind". So now what that is believed to be "external" in the past is being "internalized" in a "mind".
But WAIT,
How can "hardness" which is no where to be found be in "mind"?
Furthermore, we can't even find "mind" then how can "in" the mind be valid?
If "hardness" isn't external nor internal, then where is it?
So, to me, buddhism is not only about helping one taste presence or into an effortless state of non-dual or into a state free of conceptualities but more importantly points out this fundamental cognitive flaw that confuses the mind. This is more crucial. If the cognitive fault isn't uprooted and seen through, then all experiences regardless of how mystical and profound will be distorted.” - jt months ago
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John Tan shared in 2022:
The weight of thoughts -- Part 1
When contemplating, do not just let our contemplation remain as a mental reasoning exercise. For example:
What appears is neither "internal" nor "external". For the notion of "internality" is dependent on the notion of "externality", without either, the sense of neither can arise. Therefore both notions r merely conventional, they originates dependently.
Do not just let our contemplation remain at this level. If we do that, at most the freedom will simply remain at the mental level -- merely a pellucid, pure and clean state. It is no different from practicing raw attention although insight on how conceptualities proliferate the mind may arise.
But go further to relate directly to our sensations, thoughts, smells, colors, tastes, sounds and ask:
"What do we mean by thoughts are neither inside nor outside our head?"
Seeing through this will be much more penetrating. It will bring a deep sense of illusoriness and mystical awe as a real-time lived-experience.
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The weight of thoughts -- Part 2
How heavy are thoughts?
Where are their roots?
It is not uncommon to hear in the spiritual circle phrases like "the 'I' is just a thought" or "thought is empty and spacious, there is no weight or root to it".
While the rootlessness and the space-like nature of "thoughts" should be pointed out, one must not be misled into thinking they have seen through "anything" much less up-rooted the deeply seated conceptual notions of "I/mine", "body/mind", "space/time"...etc.
So emphasis must also be placed on the other side of the coin. "Thoughts" are astonishingly heavy like a black-hole (size of a pinhole, weight of a star); the roots of conceptual notions" they carry permeate our entire being and everywhere.
The "roots" of thoughts are no where to be found also means they can be found anywhere and everywhere, spreaded across the 3 times and 10 directions -- in modern context, over different time-lines across the multiverse. In other words, "this arises, that arises".
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In anatta, we see through self as a mental construct and one is set on a de-constructive journey to free oneself from all mental constructs, from self to all phenomena and the relationships among them.
However when we see dependent arising, nothing is eliminated.
Conceptualization remains, parts remain, cause-effect remains, self remains, others remains...Everything remains, only the mistaken view of "essence" is relinquished.
Instead of seeing them to exist essentially, it is now understood that they originates dependently and whatever originates in dependence is free from the four pairs of extremes (aka 8 negations of Nagarjuna).
Without understanding dependent arising and emptiness, spontaneous perfection free from all elaborations will be distorted.
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[7:54 AM, 6/3/2021] John Tan: Not bad. He should relook these insights and experiences and ask the following:
1. If everything is me, then the sense of "me" must also disappear at that moment of experience. Otherwise one must mature the experience into no-mind and then anatta as an insight.
2. If later it is realized that there is no me/self/Self as an insight and experience (anatta), then one must refine the view and question how does the sense of me/self/Self arise in the first place?
3. Then bring this insight from the refinement of view into all phenomena and all actions.
4. Therefore not only there is no seer in the seen just the seen, there is no seeing and nothing seen. No self, no others and no aggregates.
5. If this is understood only as negations, then one is not free from extremes and all elaborations.
6. Therefore conventionally, there is self, others, seer, seeing and seen. There are causes and effects. There is arising, abiding and ceasing and the only valid mode of arising is dependent arising.
7. Point 1, 2, 3 praxis is on samatha and vipassana. Direct experience and insights. To mature this insight of anatta, the path of analysis is needed.
8. Point 4-6 thorough reasoning and analysis is added to relinquish cognitive obscuration.
9. If he is interested, he should look into mmk (Nagarjuna's text Mūlamadhyamakakārikā), it will expose the many hidden nuances and subtleties of our cognitive obscurations. Patience is needed to get used to the line of reasoning of Nagarjuna. But no need to get involved in those polemics of the Tibetan schools.
[8:08 AM, 6/3/2021] John Tan: 10. Lastly one should understand the praxis of the 2 stanzas and mmk are different. The 2 stanzas are using samatha and vipassana to directly see through mental constructs to realize one's nature (direct path) whereas mmk is via path of analysis and reasoning. So when reading mmk, one must adhere strictly to the conventional 3 fold structure of seer-seeing-seen. See through the structures and deconstruct step by step. The ultimate purpose and result are the same except mmk exposes all the very subtle and hidden cognitives obscurations that we are unable even post anatta insight. So if one is interested in bringing anatta insight to maturity and perfection, mmk is needed.
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Yin ling:
What works for me to deepen realisation after the initial insight of Anatta (no-self)
1) Don’t chase the luminance and brightness.
Let go of the self slowly more and more by sensing deeply the senses non dually. Keep showing the mind in the seen only the seen, and keep showing the no self structure to the mind. It needs to learn.
It will naturally stabilise at a brilliant radiance without effort.
It is the self that blocks the radiance, not by intensely experiencing the radiance - this can cause energy imbalance.
2) sleep hours will drop but take it easy.
Have some sort of exercise to tire yourself out abit, go easy on caffeine,
if not insomnia can happen due to the brightness, luminosity, and the energy that breaks through from the dropping of self construct.
3) practice by sensing deeply the senses.
Let the intensity of senses become clear.
Be there with the sound. (You will know what I mean, when you hear the sound non dually, at first there will be some sort of vague background due to imprint, let go of that background more and more)
4) Sense deeply the body sensation one by one, sharpen the mind up like a satipathanna practice, this will drop the sense of body outline
5) open up. Let go of the Center in the body.
Let consciousness Spread out slowly, as much as you can, a little each day. Meditate that way, sense the senses in separate little fireflies like figure. See how confusion occurs by our mind collating and separating these dependently originated sensations.
6) shamatha is crucial. It will sharpen the insight and calm the mind. It helps with the letting go of self and calm the afflictions. Have a few good hours of pure shamatha a week will help greatly.
7) when emptiness of personal self stabilise, move this insight to the chair, table, bird, .. investigate how no-self happen to your body and now investigate if you can extend to phenomenas.
Take the time to stabilise personal self emptiness first, however if you have bad energy imbalance like me, you probably will need to extend this insight fast to empty phenomena for the energy to move. Or else it’s agony.
8. Talk to ppl with this insight to strengthen the confidence. It takes time to build that confidence and faith. Read the teachings again and again. Analyse why is it no-self.
Don’t participate with those who says “there is no self, so no worries and nothing to do”- they are clearly not in no-self lol it’s not like that.
9. Remember there’s still a long way and a huge amount of practice to do. Not to call yourself Arahant, not to think you are enlightened 🤣Hurry and practice hard. Try not to be a “teacher” too soon, take too many clients, and write too many books, before you are really clear and safely on the other shore 🤣
Will write if there’s more I can remember.! Wish to hear from others too!
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Yasmin El-Hakim it can be abit hard to understand dependent arising and emptiness via Nagarjuna and jay Garfield to be completely honest..
Just because the way they use “consequences” statements to bring out the lack of inherent existence suits a very high caliber person trained in this kind of logic. Usually we don’t speak like that. So we might not get it not bec we don’t understand Nagarjuna but we don’t understand what they are trying to point
I think better to study some modern book.
Guy newland emptiness is quite good.
Also how to see yourself as you truly are from his holiness is quite good and clear language for modern ppl.
(Soh: the books she mentioned are here:
https://www.amazon.com.au/How-See-Yourself-You-Really/dp/0743290461
and
)
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Some useful articles for post anatta contemplations:
First make sure insight into two stanzas of anatta is thoroughly clear, authenticated and stable from moment to moment.
After you stabilize anatta, you can look into these links:
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/02/putting-aside-presence-penetrate-deeply.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/03/my-favourite-sutra-non-arising-and.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/06/non-arising-due-to-dependent-origination.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/02/some-writings-by-thusnessjohn-tan-on.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/01/tan-there-r-2-lvl-of-understanding-from.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/where-is-flower.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/10/two-levels-of-emptiness.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/09/freedom-from-elaborations-non.html - Freedom From Elaborations, Non-Inherentness, Dependent Origination, Etc
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/08/emptinesschariot-as-vivid-appearing.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/emptiness-non-arising.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-and-emptiness_1.html
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2012/06/advice-for-taiyaki.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/03/a-sun-that-never-sets.html
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/10/advise-from-kyle_10.html
Equation between Emptiness and Dependent Origination - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/equation-between-emptiness-and.html
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/tsongkhapa/three-principal-aspects
https://fpmt.org/wp-content/uploads/teachers/zopa/advice/lamatsongkhapa/DependentArisingbyLTK.pdf
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Have quality time and hours to sit and meditate everyday post anatta (although meditation is 24/7 and should go beyond sitting, discipline to sit is still important). John Tan and Yin Ling sits at least 2 to 3 hours a day, sometimes they sit much longer.
“When you are luminous and transparent, don't think of dependent origination or emptiness, that is [the contemplative practice for] post-equipoise. When hearing sound, like the sound of flowing water and chirping bird, it is as if you are there. It should be non-conceptual, no sense of body or me, transparent, as if the sensations stand out. You must always have some quality time into this state of anatta. Means you cannot keep losing yourself in verbal thoughts, you got to have quality hours dedicated to relaxation and experience fully without self, without reservation." - John Tan, 2018
“The only truth is to see the emptiness of the conventional. Equipoise strictly speaking is free from all elaborations. That is exactly the experiential insight and taste of anatta, in the seen just the seen, therefore no seer, no seeing, nothing seen.” – John Tan, 2020
Find a qualified teacher with deep realisation and yogic/meditative experience for guidance.
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Do read these three books recommended by Yin Ling and Kyle: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/01/all-thrangu-rinpoche-58-books-at-35.html
Also
Book Recommendations for Post-Anatta
“
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Although I shared a lot on DO and emptiness, have some time exploring anatta first until thoroughly clear and stable.
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When being asked on meditation, Soh replied:
I see. The intensity of luminosity is also important. Also see https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/06/pellucid-no-self-non-doership.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/02/the-transient-universe-has-heart.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/07/i-was-having-conversation-with-someone.html
It's the purpose of vipassana practice accompanied with anatta insight https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/thusnesss-vipassana.html
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When sitting, good to do anapanasati. That can also be vipassana and good way to actualize anatta and calm abiding.
What do you mean by insight is not sharp when sitting calmly? The sense of a center returns?
In 2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional "agent"."
“A state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by releasing.”
“When we practice zazen our mind always follows our breathing. When we inhale, the air comes into the inner world. When we exhale, the air goes out to the outer world. The inner world is limitless, and the outer world is also limitless. We say “inner world” or “outer world,” but actually there is just one whole world. In this limitless world, our throat is like a swinging door. The air comes in and goes out like someone passing through a swinging door. If you think, “I breathe,” the “I” is extra. There is no you to say “I.” What we call “I” is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves; that is all. When your mind is pure and calm enough to follow this movement, there is nothing: no “I,” no world, no mind nor body; just a swinging door.” - Shunryu Suzuki https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/10/when-we-practice-zazen-our-mind-always.html
2007:
(10:31 PM) AEN: clarity is like breathing meditation but extending to everything isnt it
(10:32 PM) Thusness: clarity is not like breathing...is a form of awareness that is crystal clear.
(10:32 PM) AEN: hmm ya i mean awareness of breathing
(10:33 PM) Thusness: if it is crystal clear, then there is only breathing but it is not object and subject fusing into one.
(10:33 PM) Thusness: It is breathing itself alone exist. There is no other and this is perfectly clear. 🙂
(10:34 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:34 PM) Thusness: then this is awareness.
(10:34 PM) AEN: when i am doing meditation i just feel the breathing lor.. i didnt tink of subject or object
(10:34 PM) Thusness: when u have the slightest sense of self, then the kung fu isn't there yet.
(10:34 PM) AEN: icic
(10:35 PM) Thusness: it must be in the form of realisation that there is really no such thing at all. Even a non-dual experience will find it difficult to to make it unless there are few years of diligent practice. This is then true progress.
2005:
[22:34] <^john^> samadhi is not experience pure awareness. 🙂
[22:34] <^john^> experiencing.
[22:34] <ZeN`n1th> icic then wats the difference
[22:35] <^john^> the only difference is the 'I'.
[22:35] <^john^> Buddha is so serious and has spoken so much, we have taken it too lightly.
[22:35] <^john^> 🙂
[22:36] <ZeN`n1th> oic..
[22:37] <^john^> so far what do u understand about awareness?
[22:38] <ZeN`n1th> hmm like u say lor... awareness is never lost
[22:39] <^john^> what is awareness right now?
[22:39] <^john^> when u say thought arises, is thought awareness?
[22:41] <ZeN`n1th> thought is not awareness, but there is awareness of thought
[22:41] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[22:41] <^john^> so what is thought?
[22:42] <^john^> and where is awareness?
[22:42] <^john^> same like taste, is the taste awareness?
[22:45] <ZeN`n1th> i think u cant define awareness to a 'thing' 😛
[22:45] <^john^> so is taste or thought a thing? 🙂
[22:47] <^john^> u practice meditation now right?
[22:47] <^john^> 🙂
[22:47] <ZeN`n1th> never practise for quite some time 😛
[22:47] <ZeN`n1th> taste or thought is not a thing
[22:47] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[22:49] <^john^> so do u think awareness is a party behind thinking thought or experiencing taste?
[22:49] <^john^> 🙂
[22:49] <^john^> lol
[22:49] <ZeN`n1th> no
[22:49] <^john^> taste is not a thing, then what is it?
[22:50] <ZeN`n1th> just the awareness
[22:50] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[22:50] <^john^> experience this awareness with totality. 🙂
[22:50] <ZeN`n1th> ok
[22:53] <^john^> what meditation is peculiar to buddhism?
[22:54] <ZeN`n1th> hmm... dunnu leh
[22:54] <ZeN`n1th> i dunnu much about other religion s meditation
[22:55] <^john^> insight meditation. Mindfulness
[22:55] <ZeN`n1th> oic
[22:55] <ZeN`n1th> they dont practise mindfulness?
[22:56] <^john^> nope...most is concentration. 🙂
[22:56] <^john^> not so much on awareness.
[22:56] <ZeN`n1th> then how come they can have a glimpse on buddha nature/pure awareness
[22:57] <^john^> why not, every moment we can have glimpse of awareness.
[22:58] <^john^> if u do not get trapped in concepts and label and start to feel ur breath now
[22:58] <^john^> what is breath actually without concepts
[22:58] <^john^> feel it
[22:58] <^john^> 🙂
[22:59] <^john^> experience the movements, the details and tell me like a layman.
[23:02] <ZeN`n1th> movement like slow or fast ??
[23:02] <ZeN`n1th> lol
[23:03] <^john^> anything. 🙂 The only thing that buddha doesn't even know is ur very awareness that is pure and not contaminated by thoughts. It can be as simple as breathing. 🙂
[23:04] <^john^> What IS has no intention.
[23:04] <^john^> there is no past nor future.
[23:04] <^john^> there is no anticipation.
[23:04] <^john^> how could anyone know. 🙂
[23:06] <^john^> actual texture, shape, and form of sensations.
[23:06] <^john^> u must be able to touch the actual texture, shape and form of awareness.
[23:07] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[23:07] <^john^> luminosity is in these forms, colors, texture, shape. 🙂
[23:08] <^john^> when we say Awareness is formless.
[23:08] <^john^> it doesn't mean is something somewhere but is formless.
[23:08] <^john^> means completely nothing at all. 🙂
[23:08] <^john^> lol
[23:08] <ZeN`n1th> hahaha
[23:08] <ZeN`n1th> icic
[23:09] <^john^> do not even create an image.
[23:09] <^john^> NOTHING. 😛
[23:09] <^john^> but in all it arises. 🙂
[23:09] <^john^> and instantaneously gone.
[23:09] <^john^> and rises.
2005:
[21:08] <ZeN`out> hi.. is it conducive to practise anapanasati in an environment with some smell or i should go to a place without any smell?
[21:09] <^john^> at first without, later when u r clear, it doesn't matter.
[21:09] <^john^> u will experience that the smell is You. From a relative truth perspective.
[21:11] <ZeN`out> icic...
[21:11] <^john^> from absolute truth, smell is Thus.
[21:11] <ZeN`out> oic..
[21:11] <^john^> the practice should be first someone is aware of the breath
[21:12] <^john^> then focused
[21:12] <^john^> but be extremely clear of the breath
[21:12] <^john^> means no thoughts of the breath
[21:12] <ZeN`out> icic..
[21:12] <^john^> then know that only the breath.
[21:12] <ZeN`out> can thoughts and focus co-exist? or isit that when we are focused no thoughts can exist?
[21:13] <^john^> if one gets into absorption, then it becomes samatha
[21:13] <^john^> yes
[21:13] <^john^> but it is subtle.
[21:13] <ZeN`out> yes to ?
[21:13] <^john^> only when a person reaches certain stage then he understands.
[21:13] <^john^> it seems to be mutually exclusive but it isn't
[21:14] <^john^> but if one enters into absorption, then different thing.
[21:14] <ZeN`out> oic... so what happens when one enters absorption
[21:15] <^john^> that is self-forgetting, it is not pure awareness.
[21:15] <^john^> in pure awareness, there is merely the process, there is no subject nor object
[21:16] <ZeN`out> so what i am practising is leads to absorption?
[21:17] <^john^> not exactly depending on u. 🙂
[21:17] <^john^> but first build the strength of focus first.
[21:17] <^john^> concentration
[21:17] <ZeN`out> icic..
[21:17] <^john^> but feel the breath, the realness, the presence, the clarity
[21:18] <^john^> without thought
[21:18] <^john^> just the breath
[21:18] <^john^> if u can do that, then tell me
[21:18] <ZeN`out> icic
[21:18] <^john^> don't worry about whether the speed of ur breath
[21:18] <^john^> whether it is thick or thin
[21:18] <^john^> not about that
[21:18] <^john^> don't worry about that at all.
[21:18] <ZeN`out> hmm ya i know 😃
[21:18] <^john^> show no concern
[21:19] <^john^> u can breath as hard as u can, it doesn't matter
[21:19] <ZeN`out> my dharma teacher told us not to be concerned even if a person completely stops breathing ... thats y i was curious and i check on my breathe 😛 lol
[21:19] <^john^> as long as u can feel the vividness, the clarity
[21:19] <^john^> when the breath stops it is different
[21:19] <^john^> 🙂
[21:20] <^john^> if u r able to do it, then it is different.
[21:20] <ZeN`out> icic
[21:20] <^john^> or if it is so subtle that u can't really feel it, it is different
[21:20] <ZeN`out> icic
[21:21] <^john^> when happened when u r so concentrated on ur breath, then there is no breath?
[21:22] <ZeN`out> huh me?
[21:22] <^john^> yeah
[21:23] <^john^> i mean what if there is no breath and u r concentrating on the breath.
[21:23] <^john^> what will happen?
[21:23] <ZeN`out> then just continue to focus? lol
[21:24] <^john^> if the seed is there, then u will know. 🙂
[21:25] <ZeN`out> oic
[21:25] <ZeN`out> when there is no object to focus on, just remain mindful?
[21:26] <^john^> don't think of how.. just do it. There should be no anticipation.
.....
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Yin Ling:
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Mark Lopez just saw this, have been busy.. , thought of chiming in.
You are generally doings right imo and slowly the two practices will converge and there is something call a spacious samadhi or samadhi borne of insight which abit like jhana but not exactly because in jhana the mind freeze and cannot analyse at all (for me) whilst in samadhi borne of insight the mind is very clear sharp and aware.
It can last in this state for a long time, hours even. mind is v still with the right view in place.
You don’t necessarily need to use breath unless you want to, you can meditate on the mind itself for samadhi. Just the knowing. Post anatta you will know what I’m saying.
I prefer this as mind is spacious and more suitable for my energy .. I have energy imbalance when I do any focusing on small area like breath because my energy follows my mind.
So I meditate on mind for awhile, analyse the insights of anatta, emptiness, dependent arising, luminosity , interrelation etc .. to clear the mind up, then rest in this view for as long as samadhi allows.
If it starts getting chaotic.. with mundane thoughts coming up, I push up the intensity of concentration again, turn towards settling the mind, catching thoughts carefully .. meditate on the knowing mind… abit like tighten the string of my violin. thoughts hardly can arise if I do that .Once it’s stable, I let it go very slowly and check in often to see how’s the mind like.
Then you will find yourself going into samadhi very rapidly .. a few breaths and you are in samadhi and insight conjoined. It is powerful.. the view of emptienss and dependent arising can carry into the day powerfully for up to half the day or even more until ur next sit depending on how high quality the meditstion is.
That’s from my personal experience
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On the subject of meditation after anatta, see Meditation after Anatta
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Thanks so much Soh!
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Comments
[10:11 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: When did malcom say that? Recently or in the past?
[10:11 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: oic..
[10:11 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=36315&p=577078#p577078
[10:11 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: from above
[10:12 PM, 4/12/2021] Soh Wei Yu: the others from here https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=36283&p=577115#p577115
[10:30 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Many misunderstand that oh ultimately it is empty and DO is conventional therefore conceptual so ultimately empty non-existence.
We must understand what is meant by empty ultimately but conventionally valid. Nominal constructs are of two types, those that are valid and those that r invalid like "rabbit horns". Even mere appearances free from all elaborations and conceptualities, they inadvertently manifest therefore the term "appearances". They do not manifest randomly or haphazardly, they are valid mode of arising and that is dependent arising. When it is "valid" means it is the acceptable way of explanation and not "rabbit horn" which is non-existence. This part I mentioned in my reply to Andre.
[10:36 PM, 4/12/2021] John Tan: Do you get what I meant?
What
it means is there is still a "right" or "acceptable" or "valid" way to
express it conventionally. Take freedom from all elaborations for
example, it doesn't mean "blankness" or "anything goes". There is right
understanding of "freedom from all elaborations" that is why Mipham has
to qualify that it is not "blankness", it does not reject "mere
appearance", it must be understood from the perspective of
"coalescence"...and so on and so forth. Similarly, there is right
understanding of "arising" conventionally and that is DO.
So when we clearly see how essence = true existence = independence of causes and conditions are untenable for anything to arise, we see dependent arising.
Buddha).
Soh Wei Yu
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Sim Pern Chong John Tan said: "Because the nature is empty, rebirth is possible. Parts r possible, designations are possible. Parts, designations, cause and effect cannot function if they inherently exist.
If we analyse with essential view, then it seems untenable and impossible."
"So we must examine thoroughly whether we r seeing from a substantialist pov."
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43m
Soh Wei Yu
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Sim Pern Chong There's a message I wrote this year in Chinese to someone, that John Tan and Yin Ling liked:
据我所知，金刚经都在讲空无自性。当然，需要明白空性不是断灭，不是什么都没有。
比如：有小乘修者问龙树菩萨，你说诸法皆空，那不是断见吗？若是如此，怎么有苦集灭道、佛、阿罗汉、等等。
龙树菩萨的解释简单是：不是诸法有自性才能苦集灭道，而是precisely/因为诸法空无自性，才有可能苦集灭道。诸法性空不代表一切不存在。（就如有提过，若是实有又如何幻化）
诸法性空不是断灭见，就是因为一切缘起无自性才可能运作，若一切法有自性，就不是缘起（因缘聚合的假相）的，而是有自体性存在的。无自性才能缘起，才可能谈因果，不然一切皆有定性，若无明和苦是有定性的，那么修行又怎么能有效，就不可能有苦集灭道、佛、菩萨、阿罗汉等等。
这里不是说苦集灭道、佛、菩萨、等等是真实存在的（心经：无苦集灭道），而是一切法，苦集灭道、佛、菩萨、等等都是缘起空无自性，空无自性才能妙有，一切如幻，苦集灭道，六度，八正道，菩萨道、阿罗汉道、等等才会有它的作用。一切法不真实存在（本无自性）但不是说一切不存在，如果说一切法不存在就是断见，如果说一切真实存在那么可能又落入常见，而是说一切法都是缘起性空、众缘和合的假名假相，”自缘起而生的法，只不过是依靠其自身的设施处而安立的假名而已，如同马车一样。所谓缘起性，也就是远离常断有无等边戏的中观道之真实大义。“
所以是从这个角度，金刚经说，”如来说世界，非世界，是名世界。“，X 非 X， 是名 X。一切法缘起性空，不落两边（常、断，存在、不存在等等）的边见。
对我来说，这其实也是在讲心性。一切相本空明，缘起无自性，如梦幻泡影，不落两边（存在/不存在等）。
龙树菩萨：
“若汝见诸法，决定有性者。
即为见诸法，无因亦无缘。”
”若一切不空，则无有生灭。
如是则无有，四圣谛之法。
苦不从缘生，云何当有苦？
无常是苦义，定性无无常。
若苦有定性，何故从集生？
是故无有集，以破空义故。
苦若有定性，则不应有灭。
汝著定性故，即破于灭谛。
道若有定性，则无有修道。
若道可修习，即无有定性。
若无有苦谛，及无集灭谛。
所可灭苦道，竟为何所至？
若苦定有性，先来所不见。
于今云何见？其性不异故。
如见苦不然，断集及证灭，
修道及四果，是亦皆不然。
是四道果性，先来不可得。
诸法性若定，今云何可得？
若无有四果，则无得向者。
以无八圣故，则无有僧宝。“
”汝破一切法，诸因缘空义，
则破于世俗，诸余所有法。“
- https://mingguang.im/reading/中观根本慧论释/二十四 观四谛品
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Soh Wei Yu
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Also...
"The Mādhyamika therefore has to explain how we can account for an object changing and persisting through time without having to assume that there is some unchanging aspect of the object which underlies all change. Nāgārjuna claims that this can indeed be done. Understanding how this can be the case becomes particularly important in the context of the Buddhist conception of the self when the temporal continuity of persons has to be explained without reference to the concept of a persisting subjective core (ātman)."
Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka Pg 126 by Westerhoff
....
Malcolm:
"One, whoever told you rig pa is not part of the five aggregates? Rig pa is knowledge of your own state. In its impure form one's own state manifests as the five aggregates; in its pure form, it manifests as the five buddha families.
Nagārjuna resolves this issue through using the eight examples. There is no substantial transmission, but there is serial continuity, like lighting a fire from another fire, impressing a seal on a document and so on. See his verses on dependent origination:
All migrating beings are causes and results.
but here there are no sentient beings at all;
just empty phenomena entirely produced
from phenomena that are only empty,
phenomena without a self and what belongs to a self,
[like] utterances, lamps, mirrors, seals,
lenses, seeds, sourness and echoes.
Although the aggregates are serially connected,
the wise are understand that nothing transfers.
Also, the one who imputes annihilation
upon extremely subtle existents,
is not wise,
and will not see the meaning of ‘arising from conditions’."
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36m
Soh Wei Yu
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For the benefit of English readers:
Here's the translation of my Chinese text into English from ChatGPT, unpolished so it is not a good translation but you can sort of get some of its meaning from it, although I replaced a part of the Nagarjuna passage with Garfield's translation:
To my understanding, the Diamond Sutra speaks about the emptiness of inherent nature. Of course, it's important to understand that emptiness is not annihilation, it's not about there being nothing at all.
For instance: A Theravada practitioner asked Bodhisattva Nagarjuna, "You say all phenomena are empty, isn't that a view of annihilation? If so, how can there be the Four Noble Truths, Buddha, Arhats, etc.?"
Bodhisattva Nagarjuna simply explained: It's not that phenomena need inherent nature to give rise to the Four Noble Truths, but precisely/because all phenomena are empty of inherent nature, that the Four Noble Truths are possible. The emptiness of phenomena doesn't mean everything doesn't exist. (As mentioned before, if things truly existed, how could there be illusory appearances?)
The emptiness of phenomena is not a view of annihilation, it's because all things arise dependently without inherent nature that they can function. If all phenomena had inherent nature, they wouldn't be dependently originated (based on conditional assemblies), but would exist with their own essence. Without inherent nature, dependent origination can take place, and causality can be discussed. Otherwise, everything would have fixed essences. If ignorance and suffering were fixed, then how could practice be effective? There wouldn't be the Four Noble Truths, Buddha, Bodhisattvas, Arhats, etc.
This isn't saying that the Four Noble Truths, Buddha, Bodhisattvas, etc. truly exist (Heart Sutra: no suffering, cause, cessation and path), but that all phenomena, including the Four Noble Truths, Buddha, Bodhisattvas, etc. are dependently originated and empty of inherent nature. Only with this emptiness can there be marvelous existence, everything is like an illusion, the Four Noble Truths, the Six Perfections, the Eightfold Path, the Bodhisattva Path, the Arhat Path, etc. have their function. All phenomena don't truly exist (they lack inherent nature), but this doesn't mean they don't exist at all. To say all phenomena don't exist is a view of annihilation, to say all truly exist might fall into eternalism, but all phenomena are empty due to dependent origination, they are mere names and appearances due to the convergence of conditions, "Phenomena that arise from conditions are just conventionally designated based on their own parts/characteristics, like a chariot. The so-called nature of dependent origination is the true meaning of the middle way, which is free from the extremes of existence and non-existence."
From this perspective, the Diamond Sutra says, "The Tathagata speaks of the world, is not the world, and thus is called the world.", X is not X, is called X. All phenomena are empty of inherent nature due to dependent origination, not falling into extremes (eternalism, annihilation, existence, non-existence, etc.).
For me, this is also talking about the nature of mind. All forms are inherently clear and empty, arising dependently without inherent nature, like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows, not falling into extremes (existence/non-existence, etc.).
Bodhisattva Nagarjuna:
"If you perceive the existence of all things
In terms of svabhava,
Then this perception of all things
Will be without the perception of causes and conditions.
Effects and causes
And agent and action
And conditions and arising and ceasing
And effects will be rendered impossible.
(Garfield 1995, p.69)"
"If everything is not empty, then there is no birth and cessation.
Thus, there is no Four Noble Truths.
Suffering does not arise from conditions, how can there be suffering?
Impermanence is the definition of suffering; a fixed [inherent] nature doesn't have impermanence.
If suffering is of a fixed nature, why does it arise from aggregation?
Therefore, there is no aggregation, because it breaks the meaning of emptiness.
If suffering has a fixed nature, it shouldn't cease.
You adhere to a fixed nature, refuting the truth of cessation.
If the path has a fixed nature, there's no practice of the path.
If the path can be practiced, it doesn't have a fixed nature.
If there's no truth of suffering, and no truth of origination or cessation,
Then what is the path that can end suffering aiming at?
If suffering has a fixed nature, it wasn't seen before.
How can it be seen now? Its nature isn't different.
If suffering is seen differently, the origination and realization of cessation,
The practice of the path and the Four Fruits, these too are not different.
The nature of these four paths and fruits was not attainable before.
If the nature of all phenomena is fixed, how can it be attained now?
If the Four Fruits are not there, then there's no attainment.
Because there are no Eight Noble Ones, there's no Sangha Jewel."
...
"If dependent arising is denied,
Emptiness itself is rejected.
This would contradict
All of the worldly conventions.
If emptiness is rejected,
No action will be appropriate.
There would be action which did not begin,
And there would be agent without action.
If there is svabhava, the whole world
Will be unarising, unceasing,
And static. The entire phenomenal world
Would be immutable.
If it (the world) were not empty,
Then action would be without profit.
The act of ending suffering and
Abandoning misery and defilement would not exist.
(Garfield 1995, p.72)
- https://mingguang.im/reading/中观根本慧论释/二十四 观四谛品
(Note: The translation tries to maintain the original meaning of the Chinese text, but some adjustments had to be made for clarity and fluidity in English.)Reply
14m
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Soh Wei Yu
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Updated Nagarjuna text slightly above
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More on teachers:
Shared recently:
“Not many dharma centers have teachers that realised anatta
Even in singapore out of the dozens or hundreds, i think only one
If you cannot find a deeply awakened teacher that realised anatta at least, i can suggest attending online sanghas
Ven jinmyo osho is good
see: https://wwzc.org/long-distance-training-program , https://wwzc.org/dharma-texts-by-jinmyo-renge-sensei
But yes will be good to visit the garchen buddhist monastery regardless of whether an awakened teacher resides there :)
theres another teacher who teaches online that john tan and i attends
that is good, a dzogchen teacher acarya malcolm smith, you can attend
his teachings by registering from here http://www.zangthal.com/
but the course has already started so maybe you might want to wait for
the next one or something. but you can read some of his writings here http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2014/02/clarifications-on-dharmakaya-and-basis_16.html "
….
To join the white wind zen program there is a recommended fee to pay $95 a month i think. For the malcolm one there is also a fee "
It is also advisable to look around your vicinity/city to check out if there are good awakened teachers post-anatta that are able to advise and guide you further along the path. Best if it can be a mentor that you can have personal contact and interaction with. Otherwise, one can simply attend the teachings. Try looking at Buddhanet's worldwide directory to find a dharma center near you: http://www.buddhanet.info/wbd/ . If one cannot find a teacher nearby, there are online communities (such as the two I just mentioned) that one can join.
