Posts
One of the most top-voted threads on Reddit's streamentry subreddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/
[9:07 PM, 8/27/2020] John Tan: Yes pretty much agree with what he said.
[9:40 PM, 8/27/2020] John Tan: But the same insight of anatta must be applied to object, characteristics, cause and effect, production and cessation...which is a more slippery issue. Nevertheless, experientially seeing through self/Self is still most crucial.
John Tan
Friday, January 23, 2015 at 6:13pm UTC+08
You cannot choose and pick what you like about liberation and enlightenment. Saying one has actualized anatta and uprooted self and attained arahatship is not what you see people declaring here and there. I have told you many times what [these people] realized is only at most stream entry. You are talking about liberation and freedom from cyclical existence and therefore you are referring to arahatship.
......
John Tan: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/08/insight-buddhism-reconsideration-of.html
(Note: Based on previous context, I've assumed this is the link for "insight-buddhism...")
[6:11 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: This article is written myriad object?
[6:14 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Should put geoff and myriad objects article in main link, I think it clears a lot of misconceptions.
Soh: Yeah.. ok
Main link as in the stickied posts in atr blog?
John Tan: Yes
Soh: Ok
[9:58 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Any links to insightful articles?
[9:58 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: I think a section on that is good
Soh: Ok.. later i think how to create
John Tan: Otherwise many ppl might missed all these good articles
[9:59 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Otherwise many ppl might miss all these good articles
[9:59 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: And its really difficult to search through the whole blog other than u
[10:00 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Nafis is another one that probably went through the whole blog... Lol
Soh: yeah im surprise he is becoming like me.. many of the posts he pasted was what i wanted to pasted but lazy lol
….
Update, 2024:
I recently wrote on reddit:
What Krodha said in this thread is right: "It is quite rare to attain stream entry, I’ve been involved with dharma for over a decade and can count those who are tried and true stream entrants on one hand. That said, contemplate the Bahiya and Kalakarama suttas and cultivate the first dhyāna."
I would add that many people have misunderstood what stream entry is. Maybe 99% on reddit. The only thread on the streamentry subreddit that correctly presents stream entry can be found in https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/ , it is a good read and highly recommended reading.
——
Glad you liked it. If that interests you, I think this should interest you too. On nondual awareness and its nature and the subtleties of insight:
- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html
- https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html
🙏 :) p.s. I'm Soh, and Thusness (John Tan) is my mentor... I've been through similar stages in my journey
——
Self-view is well defined, for example, as I quoted in my article:
“The contemplation of neti neti, or dissociation, the separation of the witness from the witnessed, Self from not-self and so on, is done to 'support' a position of a true Self. So with regards to the phenomenal world of everchanging things, I reject as not me and mine, for I am the ultimate Witness that is perceiving all these.
This is the false View no. 4 described in Sabbasava Sutta: "...As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress." - the commentary of 'Middle Length Discourses' book explains, "of these six views, the first two represent the simple antinomy of eternalism and annihilationism; the view that ‘no self exists for me’ is not the non-self doctrine of the Buddha, but the materialist view that identifies the individual with the body and thus holds that there is no personal continuity beyond death. The next three views may be understood to arise out of the philosophically more sophisticated observation that experience has a built-in reflexive structure that allows for self-consciousness, the capacity of the mind to become cognizant of itself, its contents, and the body with which it is inter-connected. Engaged in a search for his 'true nature,' the untaught ordinary person will identify self either with both aspects of the experience (view 3), or with the observer alone (view 4), or with the observed alone (view 5). The last view is a full-blown version of eternalism in which all reservations have been discarded.”
• https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/anatta-not-self-or-no-self_1.html
The insight and realisation of anatman puts an end to all views of self.
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Since self view is well defined by Buddha in several suttas, that is a very clear indication of when stream entry occurs. Most people however misunderstand that point and have a watered down version of “ending self view”.
So yes what you said is right it is not arbitrary
On a related note, i wrote an article about the different degrees of no self. Only the true anatman insight can end self view, not mere non doership, impersonality or even nondual: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2020/04/different-degress-of-no-self-non.html
….
A crucial criteria in Buddha's teachings on stream entry is the ending of self-view. This ending of self-view marks the attainment of stream entry.
Krodha/Kyle Dixon explained well what that entails: https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/15m6m36/explain_like_im_five_what_is_selfview_how_to/
krodha · 6 mo. ago
What's an easy way to identify self view in daily life?
Self-view is the nonconceptual feeling of being an inner subjective knower of external phenomena that feel separate from you. If you feel that you are the seer of sights, hearer of sounds, feeler of feelings, knower of the known, that is self-view.
Overcoming self-view looks like this:
With the recognition of selflessness there is an emptying out of both the “subject” and “object” aspects of experience. We come to understand that “I-making” and “mine-making” with regard to the mind and body as well as all external representations is deluded. When the recognition of selflessness is fully developed there is no longer any reification of substantial referents to be experienced in relation to subjective grasping. Whatever is seen is merely the seen (diṭṭhamatta). Whatever is heard or sensed is merely the heard (sutamatta) and merely the sensed (mutamatta). Whatever is known is merely the known (viññātamatta). This is explained in Ud 1.10 Bāhiya Sutta:
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
When there is no self to be found one’s experience becomes very simple, direct, and uncluttered. When seeing, there is the coming together of visible form, the eye, and visual consciousness, that’s all. There is no separate “seer.” The seer is entirely dependent upon the seen. There can be no seer independent of the seen. There is no separate, independent subject or self.
This is also the case for the sensory object. The “seen” is entirely dependent upon the eye faculty and visual consciousness. There can be no object seen independent of the eye faculty and cognition. This is the case for all possible sensory objects. There is no separate, independent sensory object.
The same holds true for sensory consciousness as well. “Seeing” is entirely dependent upon the eye and visible form. There can be no seeing independent of the eye and cognition. This is the case for all possible sensory cognitions. There is no separate, independent sensory consciousness.
It’s important to understand this experientially. Let’s take the straightforward empirical experience of you looking at this screen right now as an example. Conventionally speaking, you could describe the experience as “I see the computer screen.” Another way of describing this is that there’s a “seer” who “sees” the “seen.” But look at the screen: are there really three independent and separate parts to your experience? Or are “seer,” “sees,” and “seen,” just three conceptual labels applied to this experience in which the three parts are entirely interdependent?
The “seer,” “seen,” and “seeing” are all empty and insubstantial. The eye faculty, visible form, and visual consciousness are all interdependent aspects of the same experience. You can’t peel one away and still have a sensory experience — there is no separation. AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta:
Thus, monks, the Tathāgata does not conceive an [object] seen when seeing what is to be seen. He does not conceive an unseen. He does not conceive a to-be-seen. He does not conceive a seer.
He does not conceive an [object] heard when hearing what is to be heard. He does not conceive an unheard. He does not conceive a to-be-heard. He does not conceive a hearer.
He does not conceive an [object] sensed when sensing what is to be sensed. He does not conceive an unsensed. He does not conceive a to-be-sensed. He does not conceive a senser.
He does not conceive an [object] known when knowing what is to be known. He does not conceive an unknown. He does not conceive a to-be-known. He does not conceive a knower.
Sensory consciousness can’t be isolated as separate and independent. Nor can any of these other interdependent phenomena. Even the designations that we apply to these various phenomena are entirely conventional, dependent designations. But this doesn’t mean that we should now interpret our experience as being some sort of cosmic oneness or unity consciousness or whatever one may want to call it. That's just another empty, dependent label isn’t it? The whole point of this analysis is to see the emptiness of all referents, and thereby stop constructing and defining a “self.”
— Geoff/Jnana
(Note: The "15 Share" part from Reddit is omitted as it's interaction metadata)
Note by Soh: For the full chapter and article by Geoff/Jnana which is very highly recommended, "required reading", please read in full: Great Resource of Buddha's Teachings
Update, 2022:
Someone wrote:
>the first five looks fairly easy, even somebody trained in Adaita Vendanta could do most of them
Soh:
Actually what triggers stream entry would be a direct experiential realization of anatman and conditionality. This is different from the realization of atman-brahman in Hinduism or Advaita Vedanta.
Anatman could be summarised as the realization that in truth, always already, in seeing, there is just the seen, no seer, in hearing, there is just sound, no hearer, and so on. Read Bahiya Sutta and Kalaka Sutta for example. Also check out the chapters on selflessness and cessation in this well compiled PDF: https://app.box.com/s/nxby5606lbaei9oudiz6xsyrdasacqph
Also, you should read this well written article explaining what stream entry is, what the realization entails, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/igored/insight_buddhism_a_reconsideration_of_the_meaning/
When the direct realization of anatman manifests and you attain stream entry, you instantly cut off the first three fetters all at once. You will no longer have skeptical doubt about the Buddhadharma because now you have direct experiential realization of it and have ascertained the Buddha's words to be true.
Edit and update on my first point: When you experience impersonality and even nondual even in Advaita Vedanta, it is certainly not the overcoming of self view of the first fetter. There can still be the view of an unchanging self or awareness like vedanta. It is very clear by reading all the suttas that overcoming of self view covers even eternal witness and substantialist nondual views, so impersonality and nondual does not reach the elimination of self view that a stream enterer has attained.
I wrote an article before with citations from Buddha on how all these self views are refuted, including an eternal witness or an unchanging infinite consciousness as self and so on http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2011/10/anatta-not-self-or-no-self_1.html — stream entry realization covers the dissolution of all these subtle views of self and inherent existence.
Anattā at Stream-Entry vs. Non-Buddhist “No-self”
The understanding of anattā (no-self) for a stream-enterer (sotāpanna) is not the same as non-Buddhist versions of “no-self” that rest only on a seamless nondual experience, that reify some luminous substrate or non-dual awareness, or that posit a luminous matter and an external world. For example, some modern teachings like Actual Freedom may be based on concepts (and a partial experience and insight of no-self) such as an inherently existing, luminous physical matter, or on the direct and gapless experience of non-duality alone.
In the early discourses, stream-entry is precipitated by a direct realization of dependent origination, encompassing both arising and cessation—the Buddha’s “this/that conditionality” (idappaccayatā). This is the noble method that one “rightly sees and penetrates,” as expressed in AN 10.92:
“When this is, that is; from the arising of this, that arises; when this isn’t, that isn’t; from the cessation of this, that ceases.”
Source: AN 10.92, SuttaCentral
John Tan shared before: "Anatta allows recognition of appearances as one's radiance. But that is still not anatta proper without recognition of dependent arising.
“There are different types of spiritual awakening, and liberation is even defined differently in different religions and systems. The point is that liberation as defined by the buddhadharma is only available to those who engage in the methodologies of the buddhadharma in accordance with right view and so on. Principally dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda], which is an exclusively Buddhist view.
Like Buddhapālita states:
Because we [Buddhists], in the correct way, see the nonexistence of the self existence of things which appear because the sun of dependent origination arose, because of that, because we see the truth, liberation can be accepted only for us.”
What the “Stream” Is
The Buddha explicitly identifies the stream as the Noble Eightfold Path. Entering it is not merely adopting a view; it’s the onset of the path-process itself (magga → phala). By seeing the dependent nature of phenomena, the disciple enters this stream that leads to full liberation.
Trigger and Effect: The Arising of the Dhamma-Eye That Sees Dependent Origination
At the moment of direct realization of dependent origination, the “Dhamma-eye” arises. This insight into [dependent] origination-and-cessation cuts the first three fetters—self-identity view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), and grasping at rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa). This is how the Nikāyas mark stream-entry.
This Dhamma-eye is epitomized in the Buddha's First Discourse, where the Venerable Kondañña had his breakthrough:
“And while this discourse was being spoken, there arose in the Venerable Kondañña the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma: “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.””
Source: SN 56.11, SuttaCentral
This same core insight led to the conversion of the future chief disciple, Sāriputta. The Venerable Assaji first gave this brief exposition of the Dhamma:
Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause & their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative.
The text then describes the immediate result as Sāriputta listened:
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
Source: Vinaya, Mahavagga, 1.23.1-10, Access to Insight
Direct Insight into the Twelve Links
In another sutta, it details how a stream-entrant has direct insight into the twelve links of dependent origination:
"I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'"
Source: SN 12.68, Access to Insight
How the Supportive “Factors” Fit
The canon speaks of two complementary four-fold sets related to this attainment:
- Supportive conditions leading to stream-entry: associating with good friends, hearing the true Dhamma, appropriate attention, and practicing in accord with the Dhamma. These are often cultivated before the breakthrough.
- Endowments possessed by a stream-winner: verified confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, and possessing the virtues dear to the noble ones—together with the rightly seen noble method (idappaccayatā). These are present with stream-entry, not as mere book-learning.
Direct Realization vs. Conceptual Analysis
The texts contrast this direct, personal knowledge with learning through inference, tradition, or reasoning by analogy. Stream-entry depends on directly seeing this process of arising and ceasing, not merely analyzing it conceptually.
Seeing the Goal vs. Completing the Work
This breakthrough doesn’t finish the path. Although the stream-enterer directly realizes the Dependent Origination of the twelve links, they have not yet brought about the cessation of that entire chain—from ignorance up to becoming, birth, aging, and death.
The Nikāyas compare this to seeing water in a desert well without yet being able to touch it. One knows the goal with certainty, but the effluents (āsava) are not fully ended until arahantship. The same bhikkhu in SN 12.68 explains his situation with this powerful analogy: 💧
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."
Source: SN 12.68, Access to Insight
