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Soh:
I just coincidentally read a quote by Acarya Malcolm days ago which I agree:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=606932
“There is no source, no pure love, or anything like it. The highest manifestation of consciousness is a person who has realized how things are 100%, in other words, a buddha.
Now, to the extent that Buddhas are motivated by love, the wish that sentient beings be happy, we can say they are embodiments of love. But there is nothing at all mysterious about that, just as there is nothing mysterious about a mother’s love for an only child.”
“If things arose out of dharmakāya, we would all be awakened from the beginning.
We say, in a general way, that "everything arises out of emptiness" as a metaphor for not being able to find a ultimate source for anything. As Nāgārjuna puts it, "empty things arise from things that are empty."”
If anything, love is simply part of the potentialities:
" - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../madhyamaka...
those who assert they are not nominal but truly existent has fallen into extreme views
as for the shentong views of intrinsic qualities, it can lend itself to substantialist views easily
instead one should see this way:
9/3/2012 11:38 PM: John: Namdrol pointed out diff between shentong and dzogchen... The potentiality and full form...cut and paste that as that is important.
9/3/2012 11:39 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Ok
9/3/2012 11:40 PM: Soh Wei Yu: Saved it in my email. Malcolm Smith
The problem with shentong, which CHNN has addressed many times, is that in Dzogchen the result exists as a potentiality of the basis; but in Shenton it is fully formed at all times. For this reason, in several retreats ChNN has declared that shentong is incompatible with Dzogchen.
...
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: John: His current practice of seeing awareness as a background
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I see
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I guess he won't see it as background anymore then
9/4/2012 1:54 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Doesn't seem compatible
9/4/2012 1:55 AM: John: So no awareness, whatever arises is
9/4/2012 1:55 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
9/4/2012 1:56 AM: John: U understand what namdrol mean?
9/4/2012 1:56 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Shentong? One is buddha nature is empty of any inherent attributes, manifesting according to conditions
9/4/2012 1:57 AM: Soh Wei Yu: The other is buddha nature is already replete with all the qualities of buddhahood and just needs to discove
9/4/2012 1:57 AM: John: No good...u r filling words not knowing the meaning
9/4/2012 1:58 AM: John: And what u said is completely out
9/4/2012 1:59 AM: Soh Wei Yu: I think its like what I wrote before
9/4/2012 1:59 AM: Soh Wei Yu: In the past I had the idea that there is an inherently existing Self waiting to be discovered
9/4/2012 2:00 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Now I see that everything is being "created" or actualized by conditions, nothing inherent
9/4/2012 2:00 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Including buddha-nature
9/4/2012 2:00 AM: John: How this relates to what namdrol said
9/4/2012 2:01 AM: John: Tell me line by line what he meant...u like to gross around
9/4/2012 2:09 AM: John: tell Christ, just joking...no offence.
9/4/2012 2:09 AM: John: Lol
9/4/2012 2:10 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Haha ok
9/4/2012 2:14 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Malcolm Smith
The problem with shentong, which CHNN has addressed many times, is that in Dzogchen the result exists as a potentiality of the basis; but in Shenton it is fully formed at all times. For this reason, in several retreats ChNN has declared that shentong is incompatible with Dzogchen.
59 minutes ago Like
9/4/2012 2:19 AM: Soh Wei Yu: in Dzogchen the result exists as a potentiality of the basis: means the result (buddha's qualities) arises as one of the possible appearance of luminous emptiness. But it is nothing inherently existing anywhere, merely manifest when conditions are there. It is in the form of actualizing buddha nature through conditions. "in Shenton it is fully formed at all times." The buddha qualities are inherently existing in ourselves, so there is no need for any conditions and it is only a matter of discovering something inherent. This teaching does not factor conditionality in terms of result and may have a danger of inherent view
9/4/2012 2:19 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Not sure if I'm right
9/4/2012 2:20 AM: John: Sort of
9/4/2012 2:20 AM: Soh Wei Yu: Arising as potentiality also means without conditions nothing manifest, nothing inherent
9/4/2012 2:20 AM: John: Yes
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
Madhyamaka, Cittamātra, and the true intent of Maitreya and Asaṅga self.Buddhism
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Mr. AP
Post stage 5, a universal mind is seen through as false reification. Meaning, we reject such advaita notions of a monist universal mind/consciousness as a true self, nor do we accept a theistic notion of an external creator like the dualists or monotheists. We have elaborated a lot on this before so unless you wish for url references which I can provide (such as https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/the-tendency-to-extrapolate-universal.html or https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/08/no-universal-mind.html )
Nonetheless if you wish to call the mind (personal) or potentiality god, that is ok (although I am not often inclined to use this term unless it suits a specific audience), although it is an empty convention as per what Acarya Malcolm also wrote:
“And this so-called "god" aka basis [gzhi] is just a nonexistent mere appearance, that is, our primordial potentiality also has no real existence, which is stated over and over again in countless Dzogchen tantras.
For those whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible.
For those whom emptiness is not possible, nothing is possible.
-- Nāgārjuna.
...
Malcolm: This is completely inconsistent with the view of Dzogchen. The view of Dzogchen is that there is no basis or foundation at all. Also the doctrine of the two truths is absent in Dzogchen. Further, the view of Dzogchen is that everything, including buddhahood is completely equivalent to an illusion and therefore, uniform.
- https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=649959#p649959 “
——
The Heap of Jewels Tantra states:
From the nonexistent empty source of phenomena the primordial Adibuddha has always turned the wheel of Dharma as the intrinsic sound of empty dharmata through the special pristine consciousness of vidya without a beginning, middle, or an end.
——
Also, John Tan and I like this, very clear:
Malcolm’s translation of Longchenpa:
don de nges par rtogs 'dod na
dpe ni nam mkha' lta bur btag
don ni chos nyid skye ba med
rtags ni sems nyid 'gag pa med
If one wishes to ascertain the meaning of that,
the example is to examine "space-like."
The meaning is nonarising dharmatā.
The proof is the unceasing mind-essence.
In the commentary on this last line, the Chos dbying mdzod is cited:
"The proof is arising as anything at all from the potential (rtsal).
At the time of arising, there is no place of arising and no agent of arising.
If one examines the mere name, 'arising,' it is like space,
including everything in a great, impartial uniformity.
——
The Dalai Lama also wrote before:
“I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level.”
——
Mr. AP
Devotion to a deity is ok like I wrote about Tara.
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/02/tara-and-manifestation.html
And there are many levels of deity practice, from kriya to maha and anu and ati yoga. The perspective and practice gets subtler and more profound the higher up you go.
Mr. AP
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Soh Wei Yu
You call devotion "okay" and I am saying it's crucial (for a
well-balanced realization). I'm not trying to change your mind about
this either, since I know you have your own path. But I still consider
it an oversight.
3h
3 hours ago
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Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Group expert
Mr. AP depends on person. I would not say it is an absolute necessity.
Acarya Malcolm and ChNN does not present Dzogchen as a devotional path either, it is primarily based on rigpa.
Shakyamuni Buddha also attained full enlightenment without focusing on devotional practices.
3h
3 hours ago
Reply
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Group expert
I do Tara practice everyday. I have quite some devotion to Tara if you read my story above.
But, I do not put this as a key practice for everyone. It depends on person.
I shared this with my admins days ago:
I see. I think doing some deity practice or simple ones like the 21 praises to tara may help ward off negative influences.
I
always have the feeling that buddhas and bodhisattvas are helping me
and had many miraculous encounters (waking state, not psychedelic
induced) including pleasant smells of other realms and telepathic
messages
Just
the other day i had a really hard time finding a cockroach. For hours
it was hiding from me. Then after chanting the 21 praises i told tara
please let the cockroach come out cos the helper is coming to clean up
my place tomorrow, she is definitely going to kill it. As soon as i
finished that thought, the cockroach ran out towards my direction, so i
used wet tissue to take it out and release into the wild. I felt some
compassion for the cockroach when i saw it
Later
on i re read the 21 praises and was reminded it mentioned that it wards
of things like pestilence, negative entities and so on
3h
3 hours ago
Reply
Edited
——-
Mr. AP
“Buddhism is nothing but replacing the 'Self' in Hinduism with Condition Arising. Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and eliminate the ultimate 'Self', the controller, the supreme. Still you must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication. And every authentication is Bliss.” - John Tan, 2004
“Understand immense intelligence not as if someone is there to act and direct, rather as total exertion of the universe to make this moment possible; then all appearances are miraculous and marvelous.” - John Tan, 2012
….
In January 2005, John Tan wrote:
“[19:21] <^john^> learn how to experience emptiness and no-selfness. :)
[19:22] <^john^> this is the only way to liberate.
[19:22] <^john^> not to dwell too deeply into the minor aspect of pure awareness.
[19:23] <^john^> of late i have been seeing songs and poems relating to the luminosity aspect of Pure Awareness.
[19:23] <^john^> uncreated, original, mirror bright, not lost in nirvana and samsara..etc
[19:23] <^john^> what use is there?
[19:24] <ZeN`n1th> oic...
[19:24] <^john^> we have from the very beginning so and yet lost for countless aeons of lives.
[19:25] <^john^> buddha did not come to tell only about the luminosity aspect of pure awareness.
[19:25] <^john^> this has already been expressed in vedas.
[19:25] <^john^> but it becomes Self.
[19:25] <^john^> the ultimate controller
[19:26] <^john^> the deathless
[19:26] <^john^> the supreme.. etc
[19:26] <^john^> this is the problem.
[19:26] <^john^> this is not the ultimate nature of Pure Awareness.
[19:27] <^john^> for full enlightenment to take place, experience the clarity and emptiness. That's all.”
And in March 2006, John Tan said:
<^john^> the different between hinduism and buddhism is they return to the "I AM" and clings to it.
<^john^> always "I" as the source.
<ZeN`n1th> icic
<^john^> but in buddhism it is being replaced by "emptiness nature", there is a purest, an entity, a stage to be gained or achieved is an illusion.
<^john^> there is none. No self to be found. No identity to assumed. Nothing attained.
<ZeN`n1th> oic..
<^john^> this is truly the All.
<^john^> so for a teaching that is so thorough and complete, why must it resort back to a "True Self"?
<ZeN`n1th> hmm but i got a question about just now you say impermanent... but mahayana texts also say tathagathagarbha is permanent right?
<^john^> yes but for other reasons.
<ZeN`n1th> what kind of reasons
<ZeN`n1th> wat you mean
<^john^> first you must know that there is really a very subtle difference between pure subjectivity and emptiness nature.
<ZeN`n1th> icic
<^john^> for one that has experienced in full emptiness nature, does he/she need to create an extra "True Self"?
<ZeN`n1th> so wat difference
<ZeN`n1th> no
<^john^> he already knows and experiences and completely understand the arising cause and conditions of why the "true self" was created...
<^john^> will he still be confused?
<^john^> he knows exactly what is happening, the reality of the 'self'.
<ZeN`n1th> icic..
<^john^> i would say it is due to his compassion to let the other sects have a chance to understand the dharma that he said so.
<^john^> this is what i think.
<^john^> but there is no necessity to preach something extra.
<ZeN`n1th> oic
<^john^> in light of emptiness nature, "True Self" is not necessary.
<ZeN`n1th> icic
<^john^> the so called "purest" is already understood, there is no clinging.
<^john^> there is hearing, no hearer...etc
<^john^> is already beyond "True Self".
<ZeN`n1th> oic
<^john^> yet it exactly knows the stage of "True Self".
<^john^> if there is no hearing...then something is wrong.
<^john^>
<^john^> but there is hearing but no hearer.
<ZeN`n1th> hahaha
<ZeN`n1th> oic
<^john^> put your time into practice and understanding of no-self and emptiness.
<^john^>
<ZeN`n1th> ok
— excerpts from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/buddha-nature-vs-brahman.html
——-
2006:
(9:06 PM) John: so i said extend it to the six senses, presence without self
(9:06 PM) John: sound without hearer
(9:06 PM) John: scenery without seer
(9:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:06 PM) John: everything to experience and understand anatta
(9:07 PM) AEN: icic
(9:07 PM) John: so that "AMness" presence is experienced in all moment without the need to fall back.
(9:07 PM) AEN: oic
(9:07 PM) John: how could there be movement then?
(9:08 PM) John: it is just arising and ceasing
(9:08 PM) John: because there is no moment that is not so.
(9:08 PM) AEN: icic
(9:08 PM) AEN: ya
(9:08 PM) AEN: that is not wat?
(9:09 PM) John: that is not arising and ceasing according to conditions and causes
(9:09 PM) John: emptiness
(9:09 PM) John: this must be understood after clarity
(9:09 PM) AEN: oic
(9:10 PM) John: but there cannot be any movement, because there is no moment that is not like that
(9:10 PM) AEN: icic
(9:11 PM) John: then from this complete clarity, emptiness, no movement, yet everything wonderfully arises and ceases, one experiences the spontaneous arising, the self-so, the unconditioned
(9:11 PM) John: then there is true insight.
(9:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:11 PM) John: then karma will make sense
(9:12 PM) John: because of arising without self
(9:12 PM) John: arises with causes and condition without self
(9:12 PM) John: therefore be serious about the deeds
(9:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:13 PM) John: in "AMness", how does karma step in?
(9:13 PM) John: he will be confused because "AMness" in its ultimate sense is a controller.
(9:13 PM) AEN: icic
(9:14 PM) John: all these are words, it is the true experience that is most crucial.
— excerpt from https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/07/this-is-impersonality-aspect-not-anatta.html
2006:
(11:00 PM) John: it rests sort of absorption yet awareness in the moment to moment
(11:01 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:01 PM) John: this is just the beginning of experiencing anatta in the correct sense
(11:01 PM) John: till this experience is stabilized
(11:01 PM) AEN: oic
(11:02 PM) John: then one becomes transparent
(11:02 PM) John: transparency is a very distinct experience
(11:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:02 PM) John: it is total vividness, clarity
(11:02 PM) AEN:
<^john^> in fact, ur master would want to experience that pure sensation resulting for differing condition
<^john^> but one should not over do it. :)
(11:03 PM) John: experiencing just the things
(11:03 PM) John: yes...it must come with realisation
(11:03 PM) John: not through will effort
(11:03 PM) AEN: oic
(11:03 PM) John: that is the realisation brings and carries us naturally to this experience
(11:04 PM) John: the realisation and experience of anatta...
(11:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:04 PM) John: if we forcefully do it, we will not be able to make it.
(11:04 PM) John: however it is a good practice
(11:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:05 PM) John: to reverse the habitual energy of continuous symbolizing
(11:06 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:06 PM) John: once transparency is experienced the first fruition of insight samadhi is experienced.
(11:06 PM) AEN: oic
(11:07 PM) John: this stage is important. :)
(11:07 PM) John: for now, i want to put it more clear to longchen later...
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:07 PM) John: the part of stage 5 must be led forward by DO otherwise one will sink back to a source
(11:08 PM) John: very often, this is the case
(11:08 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:09 PM) John: so don't underestimate the simple sentence of "manifestation is the source"
(11:09 PM) AEN: ok
(11:09 PM) John: it is the key to non-duality then lead to DO.
(11:09 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:09 PM) John: it must be DO (dependent origination) that lead one out of the source.
(11:09 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:10 PM) John: then all broken pieces will slowly fall into place
(11:10 PM) John: otherwise we will have all those funny theories like reality is lila
(11:10 PM) John: a game plot of God.
(11:10 PM) AEN: oic
(11:10 PM) John: :)
(11:11 PM) John: that is because causes and conditions is not understood
(11:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) John: and how awareness becomes causes and conditions
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic
(11:12 PM) John: when luminosity-emptiness is experienced in its total state, then it is dharmakaya
(11:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:12 PM) John: by experiencing the luminosity aspect itself is not enough
(11:13 PM) AEN: oic
(11:13 PM) John: it is at best not to tok about transcendental body
(11:13 PM) AEN: lol ok
(11:14 PM) John: and should not confuse ppl unnecessarily
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) John: actually my intention of toking about stage 5, manifestation is the source is only to longchen initially
(11:16 PM) John: and later JonLS.
(11:16 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:16 PM) John: not to others as it will only confuse them
(11:16 PM) AEN: icic
(11:17 PM) John: do u know that longchen almost gave up once?
(11:17 PM) AEN: haha how come
(11:17 PM) AEN: when
(11:17 PM) John: forgotten. :P
(11:17 PM) AEN: o i remember something like he doesnt want to be liberated.. or something
(11:17 PM) John: yeah
(11:17 PM) AEN: lol
(11:17 PM) AEN: icic
(11:17 PM) AEN: i remember
(11:18 PM) John: cause the time is not right and it will only have reverse effect
—-
2006:
(11:44 AM) John: there is another danger about just having the experience of our luminosity and anatta without placing emphasis on our emptiness nature.
(11:44 AM) John: life becomes just a manifestation of the divine
(11:44 AM) John: and the divine becomes like damn great...
(11:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:44 AM) John: actually the divine cannot do anything...lol
(11:44 AM) John: that is why there is never an 'I'. :P
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:45 AM) John: and action is karma.
(11:45 AM) AEN: oic
(11:45 AM) John: and unwholesome action results in suffering
(11:45 AM) John: this must be known
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:46 AM) John: i think this will gradually evolve and unfold.
——-
Mr. AP the texts i pasted is not pointing to devotion but how to overcome wrong reification of a source
——
Mr. AP devotion is more important for theistic and faith based paths like christianity.
For buddhism, wisdom is primary and key to liberation. Devotion is secondary but can still be an important factor of the path. Faith is an important factor even in the Theravada path and plays an even more crucial role in Mahayana and Vajrayana paths, although to varying degrees and is dependent on the type of practice involved.
But if you are of the highest calibre and can actualize self liberation all the time (and I am not saying this about myself) like Samantabhadra, you can be liberated without even the slightest devotion or virtue involved.
———-
Mr. AP ...At that moment do not be afraid of the yellow light, luminous and clear, sharp and bright, but recognize it as wisdom. Let your mind rest in it, relaxed, in a state of nonaction, and be drawn to it with longing. If you recognize it as the natural radiance of your own mind, even though you do not feel devotion and do not say the inspiration-prayer, all the forms and lights and rays will merge inseparably with you, and you will attain enlightenment...
~ Padmasambhava"
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/fearless-samadhi.html
Failing this recognition, down the bardo stages the practitioner is advised to have devotion and pray for rebirth in pure land based on a deity (like Amitabha) if I recall.
——-
Mr. AP
Devotion is also important when you are practicing surrendering to a higher power. But as I wrote before, such practices are pre anatta practices and only lead to impersonality. That is one of the four aspects of I AM to be refined post the I AM realization.
Post anatta practice takes different form but you can still practice devotion.
“2009:
(9:50 PM) AEN: icic..
but thats a form of practice rite
like surrendering
(9:50 PM) Thusness: nope
(9:51 PM) Thusness: surrendering requires u to have higher power
(9:51 PM) Thusness: requires to identify a higher subject for u to surrender to
it is an object of practice
(9:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:52 PM) Thusness: experience whatever is requires non-dual as pre-requisite
(9:52 PM) Thusness: there is just this empty luminosity
it is already whatever is
anything dual is not it
(9:53 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:53 PM) AEN: i remember david carse was saying surrendering is the way to experience non dual
something like that
(9:53 PM) Thusness: then it is surrendering
(9:53 PM) AEN: but he din say to a higher power or anything i tink
(9:54 PM) Thusness: whatever arises is mind that is why it is direct experience
(9:54 PM) Thusness: it is the highest form of insight
(9:54 PM) Thusness: u don't call surrendering self liberation
don't any mixed up
(9:56 PM) Thusness: when i experience whatever is, i breathe hard, i breathe soft, i rub my hands and legs
(9:56 PM) Thusness: what has that got to do with surrendering
surrender to what?
i eat, i blink my eyes
(9:56 PM) Thusness: what has that got to do with surrendering
don't anyhow say
(9:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(9:57 PM) Thusness: totally different
i walk, i jump
(9:57 PM) Thusness: all experiences are the ground
(9:58 PM) Thusness: all vividly present and spontaneous 'there'
carry water chop wood
(9:58 PM) Thusness: are all just marvellous activities
this is experiencing whatever arises
(9:59 PM) Thusness: nothing to do with surrendering
(9:59 PM) AEN: icic..
(9:59 PM) Thusness: swallowing saliva
(9:59 PM) Thusness: don't talk about spontaneous perfection
(10:00 PM) Thusness: it is because the mind is already non-dual and deep realisation that all is already the ground based on these 2 insights, all experiences becomes that
(10:01 PM) Thusness: because one has already penetrated to the deepest most of insight that is why he can in all actions and movements, he is one with Tao.
(10:01 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:01 PM) Thusness: not because there is something to surrender to, that is to the liberated still a form of illusion.
(10:01 PM) Thusness: but as a skilful means of practice.
(10:03 PM) Thusness: what i told u is to tell u that it is wrong to say that but i don't want u to go tell ppl it is like that
(10:03 PM) Thusness: this is the problem with sentient being
(10:03 PM) Thusness: what said and advice is not followed but what told not to say is spoken
(10:04 PM) Thusness: ended up misleading ppl
like zen
(10:04 PM) Thusness: becomes mouth talk and a path of highest profundity becomes mouth talk
(10:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:04 PM) Thusness: don't do that
(10:04 PM) AEN: ok
(10:06 PM) AEN: wat do u tink about this:
(10:07 PM) AEN: "Finally, ultimately, the surrender and the Understanding are the same, even if they are apparently, in perception or experience, separated chronologically. The very concept of 'the total Understanding' necessarily includes surrendering for it begins with the willingness, "Thy will be done", and ends in seeing that one is not."
(10:08 PM) AEN: by david carse
(10:09 PM) Thusness: that is surrendering the self when the self is not thoroughly seen through
it is a way of practice
—-
“Session Start: Saturday, 5 June, 2010
(11:27 PM) Thusness: certainty of being when you focus on the 4 aspects till the peak and with right understanding, you will also have the same experience as anatta and emptiness. when you felt that the will of the source becomes your will, you become life itself, that is the same experience. actually all is the same experience except that buddhism provides the right understanding. in the experience of "I AM" and the article you posted about the divine, what is the peak of experience phase?
(11:48 PM) AEN: which article about divine?
Hmm im not sure
(11:49 PM) Thusness: the article about the source after "I AM"
(11:50 PM) AEN: is it like the 'sacred will of the world'
i mean the peak of experience
(11:51 PM) Thusness: after glimpses and realization of the source, when the divine will becomes your will. you must be able to experience every manifestation as the grace of divine will. so must understand this in terms of direct experience and right view. :) i will talk to you when we meet. do you know why there is the sensation of a 'divine will'?
(11:57 PM) AEN: bcos the sense of self is being let go... and its seen that everything is spontaneously arising from the source
(11:58 PM) Thusness: and what is this 'source' that seems to be doing the work?
(11:59 PM) AEN: consciousness, life?
(11:59 PM) Thusness: isn't "I AM" the consciousness?
(12:00 AM) AEN: ya but at the beginning it still feels like an individuated sense of presence... but then later its seen as more impersonal, like everything is merely the expression of the source
(12:00 AM) Thusness: first you must understand the separation is due to dualistic thought, thought separates. do you know what is the 'divine' will? the sensation due to "the sense of self is being let go... and its seen that everything is spontaneously arising from the source" causes the 'divine will'
(12:02 AM) AEN: oic..
(12:03 AM) Thusness: what is the divine will?
(12:03 AM) AEN: it means its happening due to the divine source, nothing is happening due to an individual will/agent/doer
(12:04 AM) Thusness: when someone hit the bell, anything due to divine will?
(12:05 AM) AEN: its also divine will bcos there is ultimately no separate person who acts, and no separate person who experience.. everything is manifested by the divine will... including every action that is spontaneously arising
(12:05 AM) Thusness: when someone hit the bell, anything so divine?
(12:05 AM) AEN: it’s a manifestation of consciousness
(12:05 AM) Thusness: no good no good. because of the lack of understanding of your nature. your nature is empty. what is this divine will? it is just DO [dependent origination]. because we think in terms of entity and the 'weight of this dualistic and inherent' tendencies makes us feel separate and inherent. instead of seeing 'DO', we see it as divine will. not knowing empty nature, we mistaken DO for divine will. not knowing no-self nature, we thought we are independent. when no-self is fully experienced and insight of anatta rises, you do not feel source as separated from 'you'
there is merely manifestation, empty luminosity. empty as in DO and therefore does not require 'divine will', yet all manifests due to empty nature, effortless and spontaneous. there is conditions that are required for manifestations. a 'divine will' is not necessary
(12:11 AM) AEN: icic..
(12:12 AM) Thusness: when a practitioner realizes no-self and anatta insight arises, he clearly sees conditions. there is no divine will to listen to, but whenever condition is, manifestation is. slowly understand this. do not see DO as something dead. see it as direct manifestation of your breathe just like you experience everything as the grace of this divine will. feel this grace of life everywhere. letting go of yourself completely and feel this life
(12:18 AM) AEN: oic.. i am writing my experience to lzls lol
(5:36 PM) Thusness: Lol. In Chinese
(6:12 PM) Thusness: the second experience is more of 天地同根，万物同体. (tian di tong gen, wan wu tong ti: heaven and earth have one root, ten thousand phenomena have the same substance)
(6:12 PM) Thusness: clouded by '我相' (wo xiang, self image, egoity)
(6:12 PM) AEN: what do you mean
(6:13 PM) Thusness: means the second experience is more of a realization on the same source.
much like ?
(6:13 PM) AEN: oic..
why you said clouded by wo xiang
(6:15 PM) Thusness: ? (xiang, image) is simply a construct. That is from a dualistic point of view, being 'connected' must always be the case. When you de-contruct personality, you merely discover. a practitioner must also be aware of the 'weight' of these constructs. from an empty point of view, when the tendency is there, it is also not right to say that the interconnected state is always there, always the case. Obviously 'you' are not 'connected'. when the 'construct' is strong, there is no such experience or when the 'personality' is there, there is no experience of '万物同体' (everything has the same substance/source). Or 'personality' is that very experience of individuality and therefore cannot have any experience of same 'source'. get it?
(6:19 PM) AEN: ic.. ya
(6:19 PM) Thusness: the former does not realize the causes and conditions for any arising. when we say it is always 'there' we are having 'absolute view'. If we cling to that, then that will prevent clear seeing. So what is the experience of 'individuality' like? it is the very experience of what practitioner before the 'connection' feel and understand. that is a state of reality, cannot be said to be determined or not.
(6:21 PM) AEN: oic.. what you mean by that is a state of reality cannot be said to be determined or not
(6:22 PM) AEN: hmm i think i get what you mean. so one must deconstruct the individuality otherwise there is no feeling of connection
(6:22 PM) Thusness: yes. for personality is the very state of individuality. what i want you to understand is not to have a pre-determined state.
(6:26 PM) AEN: ic... that means according to conditions we experience the connection, but its not always there?
(6:27 PM) Thusness: yes it is better to understand that way
(6:28 PM) Thusness: now when you experience certainty of being, you only experience the undeniability of your existence. doubtless, certain and present. but being connected to the source is different. it will also determine your later phase of practice. if you are attached to the Presence, what happened?
(6:31 PM) AEN: hmm. you mean when you are attached to Presence you will have difficulty seeing the connection?
(6:31 PM) Thusness: you wanted the state of Presence to transcend to the 3 states (waking, dreaming and sleeping) for you are only interested in that Certainty of Being. whereas when you realized the source, you don't do that. you are surrendering much like the christian. you are devoting. nothing is important besides serving the divine. sustaining the state of presence and devoting to a divine source is different. you sleep when it is time to sleep. whatever thy will is. in Presence, you still think of control, in surrendering, you realized you are being lived. Awareness is being done. it is almost the opposite, but then there is also the integration
(6:35 PM) AEN: oic.. Actually i think if we let go of control completely the presence is also naturally there, there is no need to try to control presence
(6:36 PM) Thusness: if you think that, that becomes a hindrance
(6:36 PM) AEN: oic how come
(6:36 PM) Thusness: coz you are torn in between. you are serving 2 masters. :P Presence and source. but then there is also the integration where divine will becomes your will. then in jacob ladder meditation, after realization and experience of the grace, it must be found everywhere. therefore you return to phase 1 of the ladder with new understanding. you are directly and intuitively experiencing all manifestations as the expression of life. where you and the divine become one, where phenomena and the divine becomes indistinguishable, as transient, as inner and outer world
(6:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:40 PM) Thusness: however that is because we are trying to express and understand this in an inherent and dualistic way. we speak in such a way because we are using a dualistic paradigm. and the experience seems difficult to reconcile and become seamless. so you must arise insight. you realized, what you call Self/self is just a label. this is very difficult to understand. then you are not trapped in 'reconnection' or surrendering.
You realized there is no-self (Soh: Thusness Stage 4 and 5). whatever experienced is vividly present and aliveness everywhere because what that 'blocks' is no more there through the arising insight. now how clear are you in directly experiencing sensation? in experiencing sound, color, sight, taste? the mind at present is more interested in the behind reality. so anatta transform the experience of individuality through insight, clear seeing. there is a difference in saying what you call Awareness has always been sight, sound, the scent of fragrance… and there is Awareness and there is sound, sight, taste… when you see and mature your insight of anatta, it is realized that wrong view is what that is causing the problem. however after that, you must practice directly
(6:48 PM) AEN: what do you mean practice directly
(6:48 PM) Thusness: means you don't think theoretically too much after the arising insight of anatta, there is a difference between thinking that a Weather truly exist and the changing clouds, the rain exist inside weather. get it? so when you took that to be real, it creates the problem of reification and intensifying the inherent existence of Self. if there is no-weight to the constructs, then there would be no problem. unfortunately, constructs are like spells. :)
(6:51 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:52 PM) Thusness: do you get what i meant? just experience first. feel this aliveness everywhere. in other words, what you realized is beyond ? (xiang4: [imputed] appearance), but you do not understand the impact of ? (xiang4: [imputed] appearance). anyway you can send your article to your lzls for comments. :)” - June, 2010
——
Mr. AP also the key to anatta is not just “not reifying source”
This is crucial:
2006
(10:55 PM) John: all along, the manifestation is really the source
(10:55 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:55 PM) John: once the extra source that is the habitual energy is given up, Presence is felt everywhere in all arising and ceasing
(10:56 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:56 PM) John: that is from moment to moment, Presence is experienced in varying conditions
(10:56 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:57 PM) John: from blinking eyes...moment to moment...in raising legs, standing up, feet touching ground...moment to moment...presence that is stage 1 is experience in all
phenomena arising and ceasing
(10:57 PM) John: only the thinking, the hearing, the seeing...
(10:57 PM) John: moment to moment
(10:57 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:57 PM) John: conditions shifts and changes
(10:58 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:58 PM) John: this must be very thorough then the luminosity-emptiness without sinking back to a Source can be experienced
(10:58 PM) John: this is the whole purpose of mindfulness
(10:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:59 PM) John: but it becomes tedious for a mind that has not experience no-self or stage 5
(10:59 PM) AEN: icic...
(10:59 PM) John: but to a person that has experienced stage 5, he wants to know even the minutest details
(10:59 PM) John: of every single moment...this i told u before right?
——
Mr. AP
Spend not even a thought moment for the source and dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world (along with contemplating the two stanzas of anatta as seal, always already so), then you will breakthrough
2006:
(7:02 PM) John: the manifestation is the source, spend not even a moment of thought for the source.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) John: the stage is the real within the apparent
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:03 PM) AEN: eh
(7:04 PM) John: i think i wrote to u about telling longchen to dissolve the self in the incredible realness of the phenomenon
world right?
(7:04 PM) AEN: they never write correctly i tink
(7:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: yea
(7:04 PM) AEN: by PM right?
(7:05 PM) John: hm...yeah....i wrote him another pm after he has a glimpse of it.
(7:05 PM) AEN: oh not sure whether u sent me
(7:05 PM) John: What about the unmanifested is the manifest?
(7:05 PM) John: din send u. :P
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic
(7:05 PM) AEN: manifest is unborn?
(7:05 PM) AEN: all dharmas are unborn
(7:06 PM) John: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
(7:06 PM) John: the last sentence is very important.
(7:06 PM) AEN: o icic
(7:07 PM) John: when is the part i told him about just the happening and spend not even a thought moment for the source?
——
2006:
(10:48 PM) John: when the mind turns away from the source and focus on manifestation, it forgoes images and realises its intimate relationship btw with the arising and ceasing
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:48 PM) John: however it is not entirely clear yet due to habitual energy though the glimpse is strong
(10:48 PM) John: that it is the reality
(10:48 PM) John: but it is still not clear.
(10:48 PM) AEN: oic
(10:48 PM) John: this is a crucial state
(10:48 PM) John: very crucial in fact
(10:49 PM) John: in either sinking back to a source as in the advaita or buddhism anatta
…
…That is why “Manifestation is the Source” is crucial. When effort is not diverted to ‘returning to a source’
which is another ‘karmic doing’, the mind cease
(11:22 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:23 PM) John: the mind ceases to be anything but only this the ever arising and ceasing phenomena that manifest according to causes and conditions. Then the initial experience of
Pure Presence must be experienced in every moment of Arising and Ceasing in all its diversities and manifolds.
(11:23 PM) John: I refuse to talk about the One Reality for fear that it is mistaken as the Eternal Witness before the experience of no-self and emptiness nature due to the similarity
in descriptions.
What is the crucial condition that gives rise to the experience of All is the One Reality?
(11:23 PM) John: It is the intense moment-to-moment experience of Presence in all manifestation that gives rise to this understanding. That is, it is the vivid Presence in All
Phenomena Arising without entry and exit that serve as the condition. All descriptions pale when compared to the actual experience.
(11:24 PM) John: It is the same initial experience of Presence except that now it is experienced as the phenomena itself. This is the condition for the arising of noble wisdom to know
our true nature. This is the transparency of the ‘Self’ that gives rise to wisdom to see the Dharmakaya -- The body of truth.
(11:24 PM) John: With the stability of this experience, it gives birth to the Transcendent Body that is characterized by blissfulness, clarity, vividness and vitality as the first
level of fruition. There is no ending to this experience. May you experience the full truth of Dharma.
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