Awakening to Reality: Form is Emptiness

Please explain the difference between empty and emptiness.

John Tan

Anurag Jain I just capture what comes to my mind when I meditate. Don't have to take it seriously if it doesn't make sense to u.

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Sure ! To me, empty and emptiness ring the same. Both indicate the inconceivable nature of forms..

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Which of course is not just conceptually known but experientially felt. All forms are experienced as reflection of moon in water occupying no space and time and ungraspable.

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Michael Hernandez

John Tan I get that. Oftentimes insight is so deep it's difficult to explain in our language of concepts.

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Michael Hernandez what do you get in this case?

Since you have understood what John Tan has written through language itself, you are contradicting yourself.

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Michael Hernandez

Anurag Jain I get the experience of insight is supramundane. Insight is a by product of unbinding. It's how the we attempt to rationally categorize the experience. It's not wholly explainable because it lies beyond use of language. I get that we might attempt to convey the experience but it comes out conventional. I've also tried several times to convey insight only to perplex and confuse others.

I get that

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I did not ask about insight Michael Hernandez . I asked the difference between empty and emptiness.

I also think all insights can be explained ..... otherwise there is no way to teach and to learn.

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Michael Hernandez

Anurag Jain for example the explanation of the sound of one hand clapping is not the experience.

In fact the drawn out explanation hinders others. In some traditions insight experiences are kept private for a couple of reasons.

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Aditya Prasad

I am reminded of this quote from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:

"All Buddhist systems of philosophy expound that things--phenomena and mind--are empty, as they have to. The intention of the Buddha when using the word 'emptiness' (Skt. sunyata) is that -ness (Skt. ta) is the cognizant quality, so emptiness here should be understood as 'empty cognizance'. Whenever the suffix -ness is included, we should understand this pure connotation. If we understand 'emptiness' as meaning just an empty voidness, rather than empty cognizance, we lean too much towards nihilism, the idea that everything is a big blank void. That would be a serious sidetrack."

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Christiane Michelberger

I think we are leaving the space here that can still be expressed in words. In my experience, even emptiness and forms are concepts that don't match the experience.

For example, there is no thing called "emptiness". Emptiness is even empty of itself. Or you could say, "Empty" means "empty". It is also empty of emptiness.

The same is true for form.

In this space, neither form nor emptiness exist.

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Emptiness is Tongpa in Tibetan. Tongpa means to empty out. It is a verb.

Aditya Prasad

Albert Hong I thought tongpa is empty and tongpanyi is emptiness?

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Aditya Prasad i’m not a tibetan expert. I just use whats useful for me for practice. Nyi means i think nature of. From where i learn dharma emphasis is placed on emptiness as a verb.

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Mr. RDT

Emptying as a verb is something I love using while guiding others with somatic techniques. Its useful in the context of letting go of tension (in my own language would be literally "emptying the body of the tension" or "voiding").

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Yes. Also a great way to actualize continuous fluxing or process of everything. Imperamence to also the death of the physical body to even self liberation.

Maybe Rigtong. Or tongrig. Or

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Mr. RDT

Albert Hong letting go every moment or every moment actualised as letting go

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Mr. RDT beautiful. Tongsal emptying radiance or saltong radiance emptying.

Opening towards and towards opening.

The factuality of openness is maybe ngobo or openness that allows.

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Albert Hong nope, tong is a verb while tongpa is a noun... whenever you add "pa" it makes verb a noun... its tibetan 101. depending how phrase is constructed tongpa will be either noun or adjective..

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Mr. RDT

Piotr Ludwiński thanks for the input.

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Piotr Ludwiński is it used like a noun?

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I’ve always used it as an actional dynamic rather than a personplacething.

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since you can read tong pa as either noun or adjective you have those two conflicting translations of heart sutra "form is empty and emptiness is form" or "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". it is used like a noun. in conventional expression nouns and verbs are not blended into smoothie since there is nothing more ultimate about verbs or activity...

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But it could be a translation based on meaning rather than literal.

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if you want to re-write tibetan grammar and dharma according to your sentiments you are free to do so... lol

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its futile since activity as compassionate activity is anyway discussed in terms of three kayas or three aspects of natural state - each aspect is already discussed till exhaustion throughout vajrayana so its not necessary to make smoothie from verbs and nouns really... inclination to make language smoothie from dharma comes from sentiments conditioned by chinese language which itself is in no any way more ultimate than sanskrit or tibetan...

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It is when it comes to translation into english. Processes verses static symbols are much different in practice and view.

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But to each their own. For me the nuance of language is important. Ive read many translations of the same text and you can get wide ranges of meaning and views.

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Piotr Ludwiński haha i dare not. I don’t translate anything. But certainly my Lama does and what small tibetan i’ve understood is based on that small sample. I don’t actually know tibetan even though i read countless translated books.

Tongpa as a verb has a much different meaning than as a noun. But as an adj is makes sense.

Can we assume the the word rig-pa is a noun or adj?

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Piotr Ludwiński all kinds of translations are made. Some attempts at literal and some based on meaning or practice.

All translations are based. From duff to guntheur to padma publications to dowman. They are so different it is shocking. …

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Sorry to take over the wall. One of my favorite word or saying is ma' gags pa. It is translated as Not Stopped. This is a verb if I am correct. Does the Pa indicate it as a masculine noun?

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Albert Hong nothing needs to be emptied out as emptiness is already the reality of all forms.