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Ive seen somewhere post by Sim Pern Chong about his experience with observing thoughts and I have pretty similar experience, but want to ask about usefulness of it.
Once I sat for a 3-4 hours and directly observing arising thoughts and dont go into context, just notice first impressions, immediately let go (basically just by noticing it ceases) of it and wait for another. So, after awhile it become more and more subtle stream until it feels like I observe not an imaginary objects, but something like potential that can form into what we called “thoughts”, like electric impulse about to transform into more solid objects.
In that process were a little insight (but not realisation) that all discursive thinking and even analysis (which feels really intimate and kinda “all this thoughts come and go, but analytical thoughts its me/mine for sure”), all this mental stuff is just one thought talking to another thought, for example one opinion try to dominate and argue with another opinion, but both of it came from the past and process without my volition.
After that experience I try to maintain this practice in dynamic daily life, with open eyes it feels like thoughts become bigger like bubbles and far less contracted and easy to let go, thats why everytime I feel a little bliss when I just observe it without passive thinking.
Im curious:
1) So, is there any possibility with this method to trigger some insights to Iam/cessation?
2) Sometimes Angelo Grr said that this “silent watcher of the thoughts” its too just mere a thought, but I dont understand how it can be, how to recognise it? Im just sitting with this IAm sense for hours days by days and nothing happened lol, just sense of life itself, empty cognisance.
Thank you
Comments
Sim Pern Chong
Just a sharing... from my limited understanding. Pls read with a pint of salt.
I
think the experience of what you described as "potential that can form
into what we called “thoughts”, like electric impulse about to transform
into more solid objects" is authentic. However, the afterthought
analysis of that experience is not entirely correct.
The
part about me observing thoughts ... emm.. its not really accurate.
There is absolutely no me in such occurrence. .. because the 'sense of
I/me' is simply the 'stage' where the delusion (of subject/object) has
taken hold.. And the imagination-inducing spell of 'thoughts' is a
component of the impression of 'self'...and 'others/ world'.
For
example, there is an impression as if there is a guy call 'Sim Pern
Chong' who is posting these texts. But that is just an impression of
'processes' that are really not-arising out of a base/self or anything .
.. Impressions are really 'appearing' non-dually and not as distinct
object. The concept mind locks in on a certain aspect to focus and see
that as fixed 'entity/object/etc'.
What
appears as thoughts, sight, sound, etc.. are 'luminous or space-like'
yet empty expressions. If experiences are not grasped, the 'appearance'
prior to solidification as a physical 'environment' can be perceived.
The experience of pre-thought appearing as 'luminous' object.. is just
one expression. Sight will have a different appearance prior to
solidification as '3D world' as well and etc.
Hence, depending on what is in attention, that will appear to be the 'reality' at that moment.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Angelo
Grr's advise might depend on where the person is at. He might ask
someone to realise the silent watcher first, which is also important.
See my article https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../isness-of-thought...
Gap Between Thoughts, Thought Between Gaps
Based on some conversations earlier this year and last year by Thusness/PasserBy which I have slightly edited:
First experience the Isness of the gap between 2 moments of thought, then the Isness of the thought between 2 moments of gap.
~ Thusness/PasserBy
On the realization of luminosity in the gap between thoughts, this conversation in 2005 is relevant:
[23:23] <ZeN`n1th> Dzogchen teacher Tenzin Wangyal (1997, 29) points out:
[23:23]
<ZeN`n1th> The gap between two thoughts is essence. But if in
that gap there is a lack of presence, it becomes ignorance and we
experience only a lack of awareness, almost an unconsciousness. If there
is presence in the gap, then we experience the dharmakaya [the
ultimate].
[23:24] <ZeN`n1th> so presence is the awareness?
[23:24] <ZeN`n1th> nice quote , anyway
[23:24] <ZeN`n1th> anyway u were saying about the "i"... so what do u mean?
[23:24] <^john^> without presence, it is absorption
[23:25] <^john^> very well said, where u get this quote. 
…
For
the purposes of contemplation for the first breakthrough awakening (the
I AM), this pointer by Angelo Dillulo (author of Awake: It’s Your Turn,
he also realised deep insights further than the initial awakening and
his pointers are clear) is important:
“Inquiry for First Awakening
The
inquiry that leads to first awakening is a funny thing. We want to
know “how” precisely to do that inquiry, which is completely
understandable. The thing is that it’s not wholly conveyable by
describing a certain technique. Really it’s a matter of finding that
sweet spot where surrender and intention meet. I will describe an
approach here, but it’s important to keep in mind that in the end, you
don’t have the power (as what you take yourself to be) to wake yourself
up. Only Life has that power. So as we give ourselves to a certain
inquiry or practice it’s imperative that we remain open. We have to
keep the portals open to mystery, and possibility. We have to recognize
that the constant concluding that “no this isn’t it, no this isn’t it
either...” is simply the activity of the mind. Those are thoughts. If
we believe a single thought then we will believe the next one and on and
on. If however we recognize that, “oh that doubt is simply a thought
arising now,” then we have the opportunity to recognize that that
thought will subside on its own... and yet “I” as the knower of that
thought am still here! We can now become fascinated with what is here
once that thought (or any thought) subsides. What is in this gap
between thoughts? What is this pure sense of I, pure sense of knowing,
pure sense of Being? What is this light that can shine on and
illuminate a thought (as it does thousands of times per day), and yet
still shines when no thought is present. It is self illuminating. What
is the nature of the one that notices thoughts, is awake and aware
before, during, and after a thought, and is not altered in any way by
any thought? Please understand that when you ask these questions you
are not looking for a thought answer, the answer is the experience
itself.
When
we start to allow our attention to relax into this wider perspective we
start to unbind ourselves from thought. We begin to recognize the
nature of unbound consciousness by feel, by instinct. This is the way
in.
At
first we may conclude that this gap, this thoughtless consciousness is
uninteresting, unimportant. It feels quite neutral, and the busy mind
can’t do anything with neutral so we might be inclined to purposely
engage thoughts again. If we recognize that “not interesting, not
important, not valuable” are all thoughts and simply return to this
fluid consciousness, it will start to expand. But there is no need to
think about expansion or watch for it. It will do this naturally if we
stay with it. If you are willing to recognize every thought and image
in the mind as such, and keep your attention alert but relaxed into the
“stuff” of thought that is continuous with the sense of I, it will all
take care of itself. Just be willing to suspend judgement. Be willing
to forego conclusions. Be willing to let go of all monitoring of your
progress, because these are all thoughts. Be open to the pure
experience. Just return again and again to this place of consciousness
with no object or pure sense of I Am. If you are willing to do this it
will teach itself to you in a way that neither I nor anyone I’ve ever
seen can explain, but it is more real than real.
Happy Travels.
Art by: Platon Yurich”
However, beyond that initial awakening, we must also understand the following.
When
we discriminate between awareness from thoughts, awareness appears as
the 'space' behind and between thoughts. And because of discriminating
awareness and content thinking, the behind background reality is
preferred over content, so background awareness appears as 'awakening'
-- but it is really only treating a particular speck of dust as mirror
and thus unable to see all as mirror... and so instead of being
'awakening' it is actually being 'lost'. That experience is just a
dimension of Presence... but due to deeply rooted habitual tendencies to
grasp dualistically, one tightly clings to the 'background subject'.
That is, Presence is mistaken as a true Subject or True Self behind all
objects, as some kind of unchanging background. Or it becomes the
Eternal Witness perceiving (dispassionately) and untouched by all
impermanent objects coming and going (where in reality the knowingness
cannot be separated from the flow of phenomenality). (See Stage One of
Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment) But it is not the
entirety of Presence -- the aspect of non-dual, Anatta (no-self),
Emptiness and Dependent Origination are not included. Because of this,
it is difficult to see that the five aggregates (the 'heaps' of
experiences that are designated as 'self': forms, feelings, perceptions,
volition and consciousness) are Buddha-Nature.
When
we talk about naked awareness it is not a state where not even a single
thought arise. When it is taught about the gap between 2 moments of
thought, it is to first have an experience of the nakedness of
awareness. To touch just that aspect of awareness. When we extend the
gaps, our thoughts become less and clarity becomes more obvious.
However
it will come to a time that no matter what is done, how much effort is
being invested, how long, the other aggregates do not subside. This then
is the crucial moment whether one can break through into non-duality
(of subject and object).
Awareness
is a seamless experience that is non-dual in nature. In this seamless
experience, there is no boundary whatsoever, no experiencer experiencing
experience; whatever arises is experience, is awareness -- as the sound
of birds chirping, as words appearing on the screen, as the thoughts
itself. There is no separate hearer, seer, watcher, observer, thinker.
Everything is shining, self-felt, self-knowing, self-luminous, without a
center. It is always just spontaneous arising and ceasing. There is no
center, agent, boundary, inside or outside... merely a seamless whole
experience.
Whether
perception or no perception, whether momentum or no momentum, whether
there are thoughts or no thoughts, it doesn't matter. That is the
arising of the non-dual wisdom, with the understanding that the
transience are the Presence.
Then
no thoughts and thoughts are thoroughly understood. When no thoughts
and thoughts are clearly understood, it becomes Gap-less. That is true
effortlessness and is the pathless path without entry and exit.
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Gap Between Thoughts, Thought Between Gaps
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Going
before the arising of thoughts and perception and have a glimpse of
that luminous nature is simply just a glimpse. Here lies the importance
of “concentration & absorption” in spiritual practices. It is also
true that the strength of uninterrupted concentration may not be there
even for one with insights, and it has to go hand in hand with their new
found insight of nonduality for stability, and also move into various
graduation of nonduality. In truth, there are no stages/appearances that
are purer than any others – every state is equally pure and non-dual in
nature. When the mind grasps pure awareness as ‘formless’,
‘thoughtless’, ‘attributeless’, and as the background reality.... the
‘fabric’ and ‘texture’ of pristine awareness as ‘forms’ is then missed.
Nevertheless, for the first 3 (Thusness’s) stages of experience in
Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../thusnesss-six...,
the problem would certainly be the lack of sustained meditation
concentration as well as the tendency of trying to grasp
intellectually... which is also why Thusness often emphasizes the
importance of sitting. That is apart from the lack of clear and deeper
insight into the nature of awareness which will lead to the effortless
and self-liberating actualization of total presence or empty clarity.
The
first 3 stages are before the arising of non-dual insight and the
purpose of sustainability is to create sufficient gap between 2 moments
of thoughts to allow the sensation of contrast between
conceptual/non-conceptuality for the thinking mind to realize the
possibility of going pre-symbolic thereby loosening its stubborn grips
of a dualistic framework.
Sustained
bare attention also gave rise to the realization that ‘inner’, ‘outer’,
‘space’, ‘time’ and even ‘body’ and ‘mind’ are all mere constructs.
Freeing from these constructs, also give rise to the condition for
non-dual insight to arise.
For
the first 3 stages, practice takes the form of striving towards a
certain stage of perfection whereas Thusness stage 4 onwards, practice
moves from ‘efforting’ to natural luminosity and spontaneity. Even so,
meditation is still very important as explained in Meditation after
Anatta https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../meditation-after... .
If
a practitioner mistakes that initial glimpse (such as the I AM
awakening of Stage 1) as the entirety of Buddha Nature by maintaining
the mirror bright and attempt to go after that particular state, it will
eventually proof futile. If we see only the realm of no-thought, then
the gap between two moments will eventually becomes an obstruction.
Then
the practice becomes the thought moment between two moments of gaps. To
experience that luminous empty essence of that thought. It is in
essence clarity, awareness itself, and is empty. The waves and the ocean
are one and the same. All waves are One Taste. Experiencing Isness as
an ocean and shunning away thoughts and manifestation is equally lost,
the further insight (insight into non-duality) is the insight into
everything as self-luminous awareness or Mind. smile.gif
However,
start by practicing the gap between 2 moments of thought and expand it
but with the right understanding of no-self/non-duality. Then when the
luminosity shines, it will gradually understand because it knows what
blocks. When it tries all its best to do away the transients and yet the
transients persist, one will have to wait for the right condition to
come, such as having someone to point out or some verses that serves as a
condition for awakening.
So first experience the Isness of the gap between 2 moments of thought, then the Isness of the thought between 2 moments of gap.
Excerpt from Pointing Out Innate Thinking:
"Is
it an aware emptiness after the thought has dissolved? Or is it an
aware emptiness by driving away the thought from meditation? Or, is the
vividness of the thought itself an aware emptiness?"
If
the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he had not
cleared up the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to
resolve this for a few days.
On
the other hand, if he personally experiences it to be like the latter
case, he has seen identity of thought and can therefore be given the
following pointing-out instruction:
"When
you look into a thought's identity, without having to dissolve the
thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness
of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware
emptiness. We call this seeing the natural face of innate thought or
thought dawns as dharmakaya.
"Previously,
when you determined the thought's identity and when you investigated
the calm and the moving mind, you found that there was nothing other
than this intangible single mind that is a self-knowing, natural
awareness. It is just like the analogy of water and waves."
~ 14th Century Mahamudra Master, Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
"When you vividly perceive a mountain or a house, no matter how this
perception appears, it does not need to disappear or be stopped. Rather,
while this perception is experienced, it is itself an intangible, empty
awareness. This is called seeing the identity of perception."
"Previously
you cleared up uncertainties when you looked into the identity of a
perception and resolved that perceptions are mind. Accordingly, the
perception is not outside and the mind is not inside. It is merely, and
nothing other than, this empty and aware mind that appears as a
perception. It is exactly like the example of a dream-object and the
dreaming mind.
"From
the very moment a perception occurs, it is a naturally freed and
intangible perceiving emptiness. This perceiving yet intangible and
naked state of empty perception is called seeing the natural face of
innate perception or perception dawning as dharmakaya.
"This
being so, 'empty' isn't something better and 'perceiving' isn't
something worse, and perceiving and being empty are not separate
entities. So, you can continue training in whatever is experienced. When
perceiving, in order to deliberately train in perception, there is no
need to arrest it. When empty, in order to deliberately train in
emptiness, you do not need to produce it.
- Clarifying the Natural State, Dakpo Tashi Namgyal
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Dzogchen Master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
Even
if those who begin to practice this find it difficult to continue in
this state for more than an instant, there is no need to worry about it.
Without wishing for the state to continue for a long time and without
fearing the lack of it altogether, all that is necessary is to maintain
pure presence of mind, without falling into the dualistic situation of
there being an observing subject perceiving an observed object. If the
mind, even though one maintains simple presence, does not remain in this
calm state, but always tends to follow waves of thoughts about the past
or future, or becomes distracted by the aggregates of the senses such
as sight, hearing, etc., then one should try to understand that the wave
of thought itself is as insubstantial as the wind. If one tries to
catch the wind, one does not succeed; similarly if one tries to block
the wave of thought, it cannot be cut off. So for this reason one should
not try to block thought, much less try to renounce it as something
considered negative. In reality, the calm state is the essential
condition of mind, while the wave of thought is the mind's natural
clarity in function; just as there is no distinction whatever between
the sun and its rays, or a stream and its ripples, so there is no
distinction between the mind and thought. If one considers the calm
state as something positive to be attained, and the wave of thought as
something negative to be abandoned, and one remains thus caught up in
the duality of accepting and rejecting, there is no way of overcoming
the ordinary state of mind.
Shurangama Sutra:
"Ananda,
you have not yet understood that all the defiling objects that appear,
all the illusory, ephemeral phenomena, spring up in the very spot where
they also come to an end. Their phenomena aspects are illusory and
false, but their nature is in truth the bright substance of wonderful
enlightenment. Thus it is throughout, up to the five skandhas and the
six entrances, to the twelve places and the eighteen realms; the union
and mixture of various causes and conditions account for their illusory
and false existence, and the separation and dispersion of the causes and
conditions result in their illusory and false extinction. Who would
have thought that production and extinction, coming and going are
fundamentally the eternal wonderful light of the Tathagata, the
unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True
Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature one seeks coming and
going, confusion and enlightenment, or birth and death, one will never
find them."
.
.
"You
still have not realized that in the Treasury of the Tathagata, the
nature of form is true emptiness and the nature of emptiness is true
form. That fundamental purity pervades the Dharma Realm. Beings’ minds
absorb itaccording to their capacity to know. Whatever manifests does so
in compliance with karma. Ignorant of that fact, people of the world
are so deluded as to assign its origin to causes and conditions or to
spontaneity. These mistakes, which arise from the discriminations and
reasoning processes of the mind, are nothing but the play of empty and
meaningless words."
Lama Surya Das:
I
think this five skandha scheme is a very interesting one, in the sense
that it can begin to raise some very interesting questions and help us
dig deeper, rather than just having a vague, amorphous kind of
understanding. We are individual. We are each responsible for ourselves
and our karma and our relations. Our individuality is comprised of these
five aggregates or skandhas. We can work with that. It is actually an
expression of the Buddha-nature.
Now,
doesn't anybody want to say, "I didn't hear anything about
Buddha-nature in the five skandhas. Where's the Buddha-nature? Who made
that up?" That's the right question. What Buddha-nature? I never said
anything about it. Who made that up? What enlightenment? What nirvana?
Who made all that stuff up? Is it in us or elsewhere? How to get from
"here" to "there"?
We're
all looking for something to hang our hopes on, but when we really get
down to the present moment, to our own experience, to clear seeing, we
come to what Buddha said: "In hearing there is only hearing; no one
hearing and nothing heard." There is just that moment, that hearing. You
might think, "Oh, a beautiful bird." How do you know it's a bird? It
might be a tape recorder. It might be bicycle brakes squeaking. In the
first moment, there is just hearing, then we get busy, our minds and
concepts get involved. The Buddha went through all the five senses. "In
seeing there is just seeing; no one seeing and nothing seen." And so on,
with tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking. Thoughts without a
thinker. In thinking there is just thinking. There is just that
momentary process. There is no thinker. The notion of an inner thinker
is just a thought. We imagine that there is somebody thinking. It's like
the Wizard of Oz. They thought there was this glorious wizard, but it
was just a little man back there behind the screen, behind the veil.
That's how it is with the ego. We think there's a great big monkey
inside working the five windows, the five senses. Or maybe five monkeys,
one for each sense; a whole chattering monkey house, which it sometimes
feels like. But is there really a concrete individual or permanent soul
inside at all? It seems more like that the lights are on, but no one is
home!
Labels: I AMness, Non Dual, Thought |
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Mirror: Advice On Presence And Awareness
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
“On a related topic, John Tan wrote in Dharma Overground back in 2009,
“Hi Gary,
It
appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one
adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite
new here so I may be wrong.
My
take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are
experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the
‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here,
Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would
require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the
‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of
spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.
On
the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual
approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to
gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot
downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience
the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine
nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come
face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of
non-dual awareness.
Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.
Awakening
to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’;
that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts
and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a
kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without
intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object
gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the
‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same
‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be
it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of
immediacy'.”
In 2009, John Tan wrote:
"Hi Teck Cheong,
What
you described is fine and it can be considered vipassana meditation too
but you must be clear what is the main objective of practicing that
way. Ironically, the real purpose only becomes obvious after the arising
insight of anatta. What I gathered so far from your descriptions are
not so much about anatta or empty nature of phenomena but are rather
drawn towards Awareness practice. So it will be good to start from
understanding what Awareness truly is. All the method of practices that
you mentioned will lead to a quality of experience that is
non-conceptual. You can have non-conceptual experience of sound,
taste...etc...but more importantly in my opinion, you should start from
having a direct, non-conceptual experience of Awareness (first glimpse
of our luminous essence). Once you have a ‘taste’ of what Awareness is,
you can then think of ‘expanding’ this bare awareness and gradually
understand what does ‘heightening and expanding’ mean from the
perspective of Awareness.
Next,
although you hear and see ‘non-dual, anatta and dependent origination’
all over the place in An Eternal Now’s forum (the recent Toni Packer’s
books you bought are about non-dual and anatta), there is nothing wrong
being ‘dualistic’ for a start. Even after direct non-conceptual
experience of Awareness, our view will still continue to be dualistic;
so do not have the idea that being dualistic is bad although it prevents
thorough experience of liberation.
The
comment given by Dharma Dan is very insightful but of late, I realized
that it is important to have a first glimpse of our luminous essence
directly before proceeding into such understanding. Sometimes
understanding something too early will deny oneself from actual
realization as it becomes conceptual. Once the conceptual understanding
is formed, even qualified masters will find it difficult to lead the
practitioner to the actual ‘realization’ as a practitioner mistakes
conceptual understanding for realization.
Rgds,
John"
“The anatta I realized is quite unique. It is not just a realization of
no-self. But it must first have an intuitive insight of Presence.
Otherwise will have to reverse the phases of insights.” - John Tan, 2018
He also said:
“Hi Mr. H,
In
addition to what you wrote, I hope to convey another dimension of
Presence to you. That is Encountering Presence in its first impression,
unadulterated and full blown in stillness.
So after reading it, just feel it with your entire body-mind and forgot about it. Don't let it corrupt your mind.
Presence,
Awareness, Beingness, Isness are all synonyms. There can be all sorts
of definitions but all these are not the path to it. The path to it must
be non-conceptual and direct. This is the only way.
When
contemplating the koan "before birth who am I", the thinking mind
attempts to seek into it's memory bank for similar experiences to get an
answer. This is how the thinking mind works - compare, categorize and
measure in order to understand.
However,
when we encounter such a koan, the mind reaches its limit when it tries
to penetrate its own depth with no answer. There will come a time when
the mind exhausts itself and come to a complete standstill and from that
stillness comes an earthshaking BAM!
I. Just I.
Before birth this I, a thousand years ago this I, a thousand later this I. I AM I.
It
is without any arbitrary thoughts, any comparisons. It fully
authenticates it's own clarity, it's own existence, ITSELF in clean,
pure, direct non-conceptuality. No why, no because.
Just ITSELF in stillness nothing else.
Intuit
the vipassana and the samantha. Intuit the total exertion and
realization. The essence of message must be raw and uncontaminated by
words.
Hope that helps!” - John Tan, 2019
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
In
addition to "watching thoughts", the direct path to self realization is
to inquire into who or what you are prior to the thoughts. Or, what is
the watcher, the witness, the awareness, as Angelo said above. Until a
certainty of Beingness dawns.
(quote
from Angelo above, do read the full text above: If however we recognize
that, “oh that doubt is simply a thought arising now,” then we have the
opportunity to recognize that that thought will subside on its own...
and yet “I” as the knower of that thought am still here! We can now
become fascinated with what is here once that thought (or any thought)
subsides. What is in this gap between thoughts? What is this pure sense
of I, pure sense of knowing, pure sense of Being? What is this light
that can shine on and illuminate a thought (as it does thousands of
times per day), and yet still shines when no thought is present. It is
self illuminating. What is the nature of the one that notices thoughts,
is awake and aware before, during, and after a thought, and is not
altered in any way by any thought? Please understand that when you ask
these questions you are not looking for a thought answer, the answer is
the experience itself. )
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
You can ask, "before birth, who am I?"
Mr. OR
Oh
I can totally relate re sitting in I am sense indefinitely with no
breakthrough. Feels like such a high bar to just get the process
started.
And
if even Rob Burbea of all people didn't have I Am realisation, even
though Seeing that Frees has a whole chapter on mindfulness of the self
sense, what hope the average householder!
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. OR The element of inquiry is a more direct path to realization rather than just sitting in presence which is more gradual.
Mr. OR
Soh Wei Yu I have done both for ages.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. OR
It took me 2 years, I think Anurag told me it took him 5 years of self
enquiry to realise the I AM. The time it takes varies. What's most
important is that there must be intensity of inquiry, to the point it
takes over your whole life and being. Means you will automatically want
to enquire throughout the day whenever you can, besides spending quality
time to sit and meditate everyday (I recommend 1 hour at least, John
Tan and Yin Ling recommend people to sit 2 hours a day, they personally
sit much more). Inquire in sitting, inquire in normal activities.
“ANNAMALAI SWAMI – FINAL TALKS
'YOU SEEM TO BE LACKING INTENSITY'
Q:
Bhagavan wanted to know the answer to the question 'Who am I?' He
seemed to find the answer straight away. When I ask the question when I
try to find out what the Self is, I can reject thoughts that arise as
being 'not me’, but nothing else happens. I don't get the answer that
Bhagavan did, so I am beginning to wonder why I am asking the question.
Annamalai Swami: You say that you are not getting the right answer.
--- Who is this 'you'? Who is not getting the right answer? ---
Question: Why should I ask? Asking has not produced the right answer so far.
Annamalai
Swami: You should persist and not give up so easily. When you intensely
inquire 'Who am I?' the intensity of your inquiry takes you to the real
Self. It is not that you are asking the wrong question.
You
seem to be lacking intensity in your inquiry. You need a one-pointed
determination to complete this inquiry properly. Your real Self is not
the body or the mind. You will not reach the Self while thoughts are
dwelling on anything that is connected with the body or the mind.
Question: So it is the intensity of the inquiry that determines whether I succeed or not.
Annamalai
Swami: Yes. If the inquiry into the Self is not taking place thoughts
will be on the body and the mind. And while those thoughts are
habitually there, there will be an underlying identification: ‘I am the
body; I am the mind.' This identification is something that happened at a
particular point in time. It is not something that has always been
there. And what comes in time also goes eventually, for nothing that
exists in time is permanent.
The
Self, on the other hand, has always been there. It existed before the
ideas about the body and the mind arose, and it will be there when they
finally vanish. The Self always remains as it is: as peace, without
birth, without death.
Through the intensity of your inquiry, you can claim that state as your own.
Inquire
into the nature of the mind by asking, with one-pointed determination,
'Who am I?' Mind is illusory and non-existent, just as the snake that
appears on the rope is illusory and non-existent.
Dispel
the illusion of the mind by intense inquiry and merge in the peace of
the Self. That is what you are, and that is what you always have been.
LWB, p. 41”
“Something I always say when you are doing self enquiry or any other contemplations and meditations, this is crucial:
"We
think it's all about like, again, because of our modern mind, we almost
think everything can be solved through some sort of technology. Right,
oh, I just need to do it different, there must be some secret trick to
inquiry, that's our technological mind-set. Sometimes that's a mindset
that is very useful to us. But, we don't want to let that dominate our
spirituality. Because as I witnessed, the intensity of the living
inquiry that's more important than all the techniques.
When
somebody Just Has To Know. Even if that's kind of driving them half
crazy for a while. And, that attitude is as important or more important
than all the ways we work with that attitude, you know, the spiritual
practices, the meditations and various inquiries and various different
things, sort of practices. If we engage in the practices because they
are practices, you know like, ok I just do these because this is what
I'm told to do, and hopefully it will have some good effect. That's
different than being engaged, when you're actually being deeply
interested in what you're inquiring about, and what you're actually
meditating upon. It's that quality of real, actual interest, something
even more than interest. It is a kind of compulsion, I know I was saying
earlier don't get taken in by compulsion, but there is/can be a kind of
compulsion. And that's as valuable as anything else going on in you,
actually."
- Adyashanti
“Don’t
overcomplicate the “how”. It is just simple, innocent inquiry into “who
am I?” driven by genuine desire to discover the truth of your Being.” –
Soh
Soh’s koan between
2008 to 2010 that led to I AM realization was “Before birth, who am I?”
But for some people it may not work well, in which they should change
the questioning as follows.
Soh Wei Yu shared a link.
Admin
· 16m ·
I wrote this for someone having difficulty with the koan "Before birth, who am I?"
"You
said before birth who am I leads to conceptuality for you. I told you
that you should change your koan to “before thinking, what am I?”
There is a similar koan in the past
元音老人
从前有一位师父参“如何是父母未生前本来面目？”参了多年，未能开悟。后来碰到一位大德，请他慈悲指示个方便。大德问：“你参什么话头？”他答道：“我参如何是我父母未生前的本来面目？”大德道：“你参得太远了，应向近处看。”他问：“怎么向近处看？”大德道：“不要看父母未生前，须看一念未生以前是什么？”禅者言下大悟。
大家坐在这里，请看这一念未生前是什么？它在各人面门放光，朗照一切而毫无粘着，无知无见而又非同木石，这是什么？就在这里猛着精彩，就是悟道。所以说“至道无难，言端语端”啊！
Soh's translation:
Yuan Yin Lao Ren:
In
the past there was a Master who contemplated, "what is the original
face before my parents were born?" He contemplated for many years, but
did not awaken. Later on he encountered a great noble person and
requested for his compassionate guidance. The noble one asked: "What
koan did you contemplate?" He replied: "I contemplated what is the
original face before my parents were born?" Noble one replied: "You
contemplated too far away, should look nearby." He asked: "How should I
look nearby?" Noble one replied: "Don't look into what is before your
parents were born, need to look at: before a thought arise, what is it?"
The Zen practitioner immediately attained great awakening.
Everyone
that is sitting here, please look at what is this before a moment of
thought's arising? IT is radiating light in front of everybody's [sense]
doors, the brightness radiates everything yet is without the slightest
clinging, nothing is known and nothing is seen yet it is not similar to
wood and stones, what is This? IT is right here shining in its
brilliancy, this is awakening to the Way. Therefore it is said, "the
great way is not difficult, just cease speech and words"!
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. OR
I have also written before in this group that I'm a very pragmatic
person, and if there were really a shortcut, like say a psychedelic drug
that can trigger I AM realization for >50% of people, then I would
recommend that even if I go to jail. Seriously, imagine how
transformative it will be for the world if everyone takes a psychedelic
drug that causes >50% of them to realise the I AM. The world will
change for the better for sure, and I am willing to make that sacrifice.
Actually I don't need to advertise that drug, I'm sure lots of people
will know about it and take it.
Unfortunately
I don't see any such shortcut drugs (yet). Even psychedelic drugs only
result in really small percentage of such breakthroughs or glimpses.
Most people that tried those have altered states of experience without
lasting realization, even if they have glimpses of presence and cosmic
consciousness. So I still recommend self enquiry and meditation as the
most direct and viable way to self realization, I never recommend any
other shortcuts as I don't really see any.
Probably government agents have taken note of what I said here 
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. OR By the way how exactly do you inquire?
Mr. OR
Soh Wei Yu
I investigate what I am, non-verbally, in direct experience. Sometimes I
employ the Ramana "method", but more often than not, I just think the
word, 'I' and see what that refers to. Or I do that but wordlessly.
Mr. JFZ
Owen
RichardsI do that too, just saying 'I' and feeling into that. If that
doesn't work I ask questions such ass, where is awareness, who am I, am I
aware, what am I, what is awareness? Mostly during life. Results in
silence and a little bliss and relaxation. It has a satisfying taste.
P.s.
I did have my first glimpses with the help of a certain fungi actually.
But it was coupled with a period of intense inquiry and listening to
Adyashanti.
Mr. MP
Mr. OR
have you reach the deepest essence/substances of what you are? Is the I
am that you rest into is the essence of who you are? Meaning the ever
clear pure background that everything is happening to?
If yes, notice that every thoughts even doubt thoughts have the same taste of it, have the same essence of the background.
Soh Wei Yu
Admin
Mr. OR
you don’t need to accept or reject it as what you are or what you are
not. It has nothing to do with an intellectual acceptance.. and
everything to do with the revelation of a doubtless unshakeable
certainty of Beingness. When will that dawn you can never know and it is
not good to anticipate and chase after some event. Just inquire and let
it reveal itself like the brightness of ten thousand suns revealing
itself one day when clouds dissipate. Even the clouds are not a
hindrance if you inquire into the source behind the clouds. Inquire and
return to that radiant Source. Every moment it is what you are, what is
it that is hearing that sound, aware of that thought? Every moment can
be an entry point to the source the moment you inquire.
