Posts
Soh Wei Yu I
like Daniel Ingram models. Perfecting one axis doesn't mean perfecting
another. More rational, pragmatic approach to the path towards
perfecting sila, samadhi and prajna :)
Soh Wei Yu Path of seeing does not require four jhanas, and four jhanas does not require path of seeing
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland This
isn’t the way Chandra presents the paths and grounds in
Madhyamakavatara, but I kinda have a feeling it’s not so important in
his work.
Soh Wei Yu Yeah. That's my point. Daniel also wrote about the problems of the Bhumi models. Basically mixing up a lot of axis
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Okay, I see 🙂
André A. Pais Is attainment of shamatha equivalent to attainment of the 4th or 8th jhana?
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland According to whom? 😛
André A. Pais That's
what I am asking. Is jhanas and shamatha the same? No, right?
Concentration is not really something I've studied at all. It shows,
right? 😉
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland Here’s
how I think about it: Can you have jhana without samatha? No. Can you
have samatha without jhana? Yes. Is samatha without jhana samma samadhi?
No.
André A. Pais Stian Gudmundsen Høiland samma samadhi?
Soh Wei Yu Right samadhi/concentration
Soh Wei Yu As part of the eightfold path.
Soh Wei Yu "The Suttas usually define Samma-Samadhi as the four jhanas"
Soh Wei Yu Even in Tibetan, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, it's stated:
"
Malcolm (Loppon Namdrol) wrote:
Rongzom makes the point very clearly that Dzogchen practitioners must develop the mental factors that characterize the first dhyana, vitarka, vicara, pritvi, sukha and ekagraha, i.e. applied attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease and one-pointedness. If you do not have a stable samatha practice, you can't really call yourself a Dzogchen practitioner at all. At best, you can call yourself someone who would like to be a Dzogchen practitioner a ma rdzogs chen pa. People who think that Dzogchen frees one from the need to meditate seriously are seriously deluded. The sgra thal 'gyur clearly says:
The faults of not meditating are:
the characteristics of samsara appear to one,
there is self and other, object and consciousness,
the view is verbal,
the field is perceptual,
one is bound by afflictions,
also one throws away the path of the buddhahood,
one does not understand the nature of the result,
a basis for the sameness of all phenomena does not exist,
one's vidya is bound by the three realms,
and one will fall into conceptuality
He also added:
Dhyanas are defined by the presence or absence of specific mental factors.
The Dhyanas were not the vehicle of Buddha's awakening, rather he coursed through them in order to remove traces of rebirth associated with the form and formless realms associated with the dhyanas.
...
Whether you are following Dzogchen or Mahamudra, and regardless of your intellectual understanding, your meditation should have, at base, the following characteristics:
Prthvi -- physical ease Sukha -- mental joy Ekagraha -- one-pointedness Vitarka -- initial engagement Vicara -- sustained engagement
If any of these is missing, you have not even achieved perfect samatha regardless of whether or not you are using an external object, the breath or even the nature of the mind.
...
Even in Dzogchen, the five mental factors I mentioned are key without which you are really not going to make any progress.
...
Samadhi/dhyāna is a natural mental factor, we all have it. The problem is that we naturally allow this mental factor to rest on afflictive objects such as HBO, books, video games, etc.
Śamatha practice is the discipline of harnessing our natural predisposition for concentration, and shifting it from afflictive conditioned phenomena to nonafflictive conditioned phenomena, i.e., the phenomena of the path. We do this in order to create a well tilled field for the growth of vipaśyāna. Śamatha ultimately allows us to have mental stability and suppresses afflictive mental factors so that we may eventually give rise to authentic insight into the nature of reality. While it is possible to have vipaśyāna without cultivating śamatha, it is typically quite unstable and lacks the power to effectively eradicate afflictive patterning from our minds. Therefore, the basis of all practice in Buddhadharma, from Abhidharma to the Great Perfection, is the cultivation of śamatha as a preliminary practice for germination of vipaśyāna. "
"
Malcolm (Loppon Namdrol) wrote:
Rongzom makes the point very clearly that Dzogchen practitioners must develop the mental factors that characterize the first dhyana, vitarka, vicara, pritvi, sukha and ekagraha, i.e. applied attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease and one-pointedness. If you do not have a stable samatha practice, you can't really call yourself a Dzogchen practitioner at all. At best, you can call yourself someone who would like to be a Dzogchen practitioner a ma rdzogs chen pa. People who think that Dzogchen frees one from the need to meditate seriously are seriously deluded. The sgra thal 'gyur clearly says:
The faults of not meditating are:
the characteristics of samsara appear to one,
there is self and other, object and consciousness,
the view is verbal,
the field is perceptual,
one is bound by afflictions,
also one throws away the path of the buddhahood,
one does not understand the nature of the result,
a basis for the sameness of all phenomena does not exist,
one's vidya is bound by the three realms,
and one will fall into conceptuality
He also added:
Dhyanas are defined by the presence or absence of specific mental factors.
The Dhyanas were not the vehicle of Buddha's awakening, rather he coursed through them in order to remove traces of rebirth associated with the form and formless realms associated with the dhyanas.
...
Whether you are following Dzogchen or Mahamudra, and regardless of your intellectual understanding, your meditation should have, at base, the following characteristics:
Prthvi -- physical ease Sukha -- mental joy Ekagraha -- one-pointedness Vitarka -- initial engagement Vicara -- sustained engagement
If any of these is missing, you have not even achieved perfect samatha regardless of whether or not you are using an external object, the breath or even the nature of the mind.
...
Even in Dzogchen, the five mental factors I mentioned are key without which you are really not going to make any progress.
...
Samadhi/dhyāna is a natural mental factor, we all have it. The problem is that we naturally allow this mental factor to rest on afflictive objects such as HBO, books, video games, etc.
Śamatha practice is the discipline of harnessing our natural predisposition for concentration, and shifting it from afflictive conditioned phenomena to nonafflictive conditioned phenomena, i.e., the phenomena of the path. We do this in order to create a well tilled field for the growth of vipaśyāna. Śamatha ultimately allows us to have mental stability and suppresses afflictive mental factors so that we may eventually give rise to authentic insight into the nature of reality. While it is possible to have vipaśyāna without cultivating śamatha, it is typically quite unstable and lacks the power to effectively eradicate afflictive patterning from our minds. Therefore, the basis of all practice in Buddhadharma, from Abhidharma to the Great Perfection, is the cultivation of śamatha as a preliminary practice for germination of vipaśyāna. "
André A. Pais What does shamatha without jhanas actually entail? Mere single pointed concentration? What do the jhanas add?
Soh Wei Yu It can refer to formless realms, or pre-jhana states like "access concentration"
Soh Wei Yu How
does jhana help.. I think Malcolm explained well: "While it is possible
to have vipaśyāna without cultivating śamatha, it is typically quite
unstable and lacks the power to effectively eradicate afflictive
patterning from our minds. Therefore, the basis of all practice in
Buddhadharma, from Abhidharma to the Great Perfection, is the
cultivation of śamatha as a preliminary practice for germination of
vipaśyāna."
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland In
the suttas the Buddha and the people who ask him things are quite often
concerned with what kind of direction they should take concentration
practices on. Personally, I think the jhana formulas, which are almost
always repeated in full in the suttas, were one of the main practical
things the Buddha taught: How to achieve a unified mind in a consistent
and fruitful manner.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland I
think that might have been a hot topic of the day: Knowing the immense
benefits of samadhi, but lacking “scientific” thinking about it.
Soh Wei Yu 2011:
(8:29 PM) Thusness: removing the fetters is not to say no-emotion and be like a machine...
Through compassion u can also remove fetters
in the Theravada model, how are u to remove the 3 poisons?
????
(8:32 PM) AEN: through insight, tranquillity, dispassion
(8:33 PM) Thusness: so what is lacking in the 7 phases of insight?
(8:35 PM) AEN: the 7 phases of insight are focused on the insight portion
but i guess dispassion should arise after emptiness?
(8:36 PM) Thusness: it helps
so in addition to that, u must also practice samadhi
for tranquility and calm
(11:53 PM) Thusness: as for u, do some meditation to improve ur samadhi.
(2:29 PM) Thusness: the 10 fetters is removed by the perfection of ??? (jie4, ding4, hui4; precepts, samadhi and wisdom) in Theravada teaching
(8:29 PM) Thusness: removing the fetters is not to say no-emotion and be like a machine...
Through compassion u can also remove fetters
in the Theravada model, how are u to remove the 3 poisons?
????
(8:32 PM) AEN: through insight, tranquillity, dispassion
(8:33 PM) Thusness: so what is lacking in the 7 phases of insight?
(8:35 PM) AEN: the 7 phases of insight are focused on the insight portion
but i guess dispassion should arise after emptiness?
(8:36 PM) Thusness: it helps
so in addition to that, u must also practice samadhi
for tranquility and calm
(11:53 PM) Thusness: as for u, do some meditation to improve ur samadhi.
(2:29 PM) Thusness: the 10 fetters is removed by the perfection of ??? (jie4, ding4, hui4; precepts, samadhi and wisdom) in Theravada teaching
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Proper meditation should b detaching frm all phenomena, and focus solely on 'returning to the Source'. Creation or phenomena r ultimately impermanent and will lead to none other dan dissatisfaction and suffering.Its by being enchanted with creation that souls keep on trapped in the cycle of manifestation endlessly.
What you wrote is the view of Advaita, but not Buddhadharma. In Buddhadharma there is no souls, and no Source behind manifestation. Consciousness is simply the flow of manifestation and inseparable from conditions. The cycle of samsara is ended through direct insight into twofold emptiness and actualizing it such that all grasping at self/Self and phenomena as truly existing is completely relinquished.
Without Consciousness theres no creation,'the flow of manifestation',as you called it,cannot even happen without Self.Never confuse dis two aspects,4 they r distinct....Phenomena r impermanent so subject to suffering , the same cannot be said of (real)Self,only the (small/limited ) self is suffering....
Whatever you say, I have already gone through that phase and gone beyond. I have gone beyond the realizations of all Advaita and Neo-Advaita people and I have to say it is not the same realization.
It seems that I cannot convince you and you cannot convince me, as my own realizations are doubtless and unshakeable at this point and no views can shake me any more.
So let's stop the discussion here.
Sorry, dis is yr blog after all and i could've taken such arguments elsewhere eg..other online forums etc...but anyway,im not ready yet 2 agreed on and share yr views ...
I am not interested in continuing this conversation here or anywhere else because I have engaged in countless of such discussions in the past.
All I have to report here is I have gone through the same exact realisations as the Advaitins and I have gone beyond that. The view and realization is different. If you do not accept the possibility of this then there is nothing further to discuss. Right now you are holding the Advaitin realization as the ultimate and this rejecting any other forms of realization. You need to keep an open mind, otherwise there is no grounds for discussion. That is why I will cease discussing with you.