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Conversation — 27 August 2006
John: Read your email about the Ken Wilber page 250.
AEN: Okay, wait.
John: Fulcrum 10 is the peak of no-self (comments by Soh: actually as clarified later, it is more of substantialist nondual but not yet anatta realization) and beginning to understand emptiness as it is but not necessarily understood the meaning of emptiness. To date, Ken Wilber's description of enlightenment is closest to my description. (Note by Soh: However, Ken Wilber's understanding is still more of Stage 4 nondual, not yet anatta [stage 5] and emptiness [stage 6] as John Tan later clarified) It is from fulcrum 9-10. Except that fulcrum 7-9 is waking, dreaming, and dreamless is what I told you should not be followed. Let's take Longchen for example, from his understanding and my description to him, where do you think I am leading him?
AEN: Emptiness? No-self and emptiness.
John: Yes. So where was he when he first communicated with you?
AEN: In terms of fulcrum?
John: Yeah.
AEN: Fulcrum 9-10?
John: Yes. Did he go through 7 and 8?
AEN: No.
John: Okay then, how is one to experience fulcrum 9? That is what I disagree. :) In fact, true enlightenment should only start at 9. And a glimpse of our nature starts at 9.
AEN: You mean he said otherwise?
John: 7 can be the result of mindfulness.
AEN: Which page is 7?
John: Page 7? I mean fulcrum 7.
AEN: Oh, okay, found it.
John: Mindfulness can lead us to fulcrum 7. That is the result of being mindful and non-conceptual. But our true nature isn't experienced... means there is no this sudden awareness of 'I AMness'. (Soh: Also see: 1) Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment (Available in Languages: AR, DA, DE, EN, ES, FR, HI, ID, IT, JA, KO, NE, PL, PT-BR, PT-PT, RU, TA, TH, VI, ZH) ) This 'I AMness' is a natural progression when the karmic propensities are still very strong and yet there is a sudden glimpse of our nature. At that moment, one is not able to discern what is the meaning of no-self. Why no doership and why no I? Because the experience of that Presence (They experience it as ISness, as Pure Presence but yet still fall back to 'Self') because of karmic propensities and habitual energy. They were being misled by the hypnotic spell of 'I'. And how to break this spell? That is the question. The experience is there but there is no clarity; this is the problem. So one must know exactly the stage to lead to the next stage by carefully breaking that spell of identification.
AEN: By the way, page 184 about fulcrum 7, there is some sort of nondualism experience? 'You're on a nature walk... and suddenly you look at a beautiful mountain and wham - there is no looker - just the mountain.'
John: Yes, that is experience of clarity without knowing the- nature.
AEN: It is a stage. Not 'I AMness'?
John: Yes... means one can experience clarity but has no understanding of AMness.
AEN: Oh, hmm, last time I think maybe I experienced fulcrum 7.
John: He must continue to practice. Yeah... when you told me about the clarity, about the awareness that everything seems so clear and real. This is come and go. And I told you to see the scenery but no one there. That is the vividness, the clarity... all these are the attributes of awareness. Now I tell you to experience the calmness to gather strength. Stillness of body and mind. This is tranquility and calmness, not clarity and luminosity. So one can experience clarity and vividness but the path of enlightenment hasn't started yet. There must be this intuitive understanding of 'I AM' then it begins. Like Eckhart Tolle. Like Longchen and Ken Wilber... all these people experience the 'Self'. The 'Self' is a misunderstood version. When I told Longchen first there is no I, no self, yet there is Presence, he was confused. Remember?
AEN: Yeah.
John: Then he was thinking can one experience to a high stage but yet is still ignorant of the source... this is the question he asked Bob. Remember?
AEN: Not too sure. Which post?
John: Hmm... what is his site URL?
AEN: Wait.
John: You are the one that sent me the post. Knock your head.
AEN: I mean around when?
John:
AEN: Yeah, thanks for looking.
John: Reply #8 on Oct 24, 2005, 12:39am. He was asking Bob can one be so aligned with vast absolute yet not aware of the thinker of thoughts. :) He doesn't dare to ask in religion/sects... :) He said so.
AEN: Why? Yeah, I mean why he wouldn't dare?
John: Shy to ask... later they'd say like all people in Buddhism forum are not enlightened. :P It is important that he breaks through that witness and sees it in manifestation; that is exactly what Ken Wilber said. :) In fact, I borrowed his books last week just because I saw this phrase. :P Otherwise no value.
AEN: Oh.
John: Because it is very common for one to sink back to the source. But for his case, it is a bit unique... he dwells completely into manifestation. And he experiences witnessing consciousness in all three stages: waking, dreaming, and dreamless. But the way he puts it into fulcrum 7 and 8 before 9 is experienced, I can't agree. I think it is not right and dangerous.
AEN: How come?
John: However, I like his books because of his experience.
AEN: Wait, fulcrum 8 is...? Fulcrum 7 is dangerous?
John: Because that sort of practice is first not towards liberation, meaning there is no wisdom in our nature but merely a stage. Next, the tranquil calm that is most important for any practices isn't mentioned. That to me is not right and very dangerous. A correct practice should lead one towards calmness, purity, and tranquility. This comes first, then even if one experiences nothing about our nature, one is able to benefit from such fruition. During death, ward off evils, solve daily problems, deal with mental stress. Such calmness itself is the 'mantra', is the cure for all the above, or serves as the base for it.
AEN: Ward off evil as in?
John: Yeah... when the mind is calm, there is little power over some person. It is difficult to penetrate such a mind.
AEN: Oh.
John: Therefore that must be the base of practice first. Only when conditions are right and one is quite sure that the practitioner is ready, then it is appropriate to guide one towards dreamless and dream stage... and real qualified masters are needed. Dealing with the mind itself into a realm that is not easily understood by people is dangerous. And those masters aren't sure themselves unless they are really high achievers. How many of them are truly so? Therefore one should refrain from such practice. And teachers must correctly advise their students or followers their practices toward achieving the virtuous attributes of the mind. And at the same time provide correct knowledge of our nature, leading them only when the conditions are right. Otherwise if a newbie asks then I start telling them this and that, or if TWE asked then reply this and that... then they are misled. Rather lead them towards the experience of the tranquil calm; it will solve their problems and experience the benefits and fruition of chanting and meditation. Then get them acquainted with dharma and have correct understanding of what our true nature is like. That's all. The page 250 of what Ken Wilber described is exactly what Longchen needs now; he must stabilize this experience and return to the practice of tranquility and calmness through letting go to master the thought pattern. With this mastery, he is able to completely allow the condition of sleep to manifest as it is. Now during night, sleep will definitely occur. Why? Because the conditions are there. The mind knows and is aware of it. Right?
AEN: Yeah.
John: When the conditions are there, there is manifestation, and that is itself the source. When we didn't sleep, it is not that the stage is high but rather we are unable to allow conditions to be as it is. If we can enter into deep sleep, it is because of this. One must observe the condition. When we are not able to take nothingness as an object which is so obvious during deep sleep, we are denying that condition. It is a form of subtle attachment and also not knowing emptiness. An attachment to the self. Natural awareness can be sustained but through another way. That is, one is able to control the thought patterns and allow thoughts to subside. Only after achieving this level, we have mastery we can go into it. That is achievement. When you read Ken Wilber's book, do know about what can be practiced, what can't. When in the future you face problems, you must know what can solve your problems. It is always about the mastery of our thoughts (the capacity to slow down and settle it) in a mundane world. Then it comes to ultimate liberation and enlightenment; that is the intuitive experience of our pristine nature. :) For one that experiences 'I AM', one can still take another 20 years to experience what Ken Wilber said. It is just a 'spell' that bonds, and it takes more than 20 years for him to break. Nothing changes, just a bond.
AEN: Hmm, I ask you, if a practitioner attains a very high stage this lifetime, will he still need to go through all the various stages Ken Wilber mentioned in the next lifetime?
John: Yeah. As far as I know.
AEN: I see.
John: But don't worry too much... because the strength of the practice is latent deep inside... How is the channel now?
AEN: The Buddhist channel? Okay, but quite quiet... still got some chatting but not much. And all the ops are gone. Last time there were like 10 ops, now only 2 left. Others all deregistered. 2 as in, including me.
John: MSN is better...
AEN: Yeah. Leonard says: 'That's life - no chance to even go for the chanting.' I said: 'How come? What happened?' Leonard says: 'Last night had dinner...' I said: 'I see...' Leonard says: 'Sometimes I feel that karma is something that cannot be avoided... I am trying so hard....'
John: Yes... he can't.
AEN: Leonard says: 'I wonder how the Buddha did it....'
John: A misunderstanding after the experience of the 'Self' is the creation of a super will. :) Buddha didn't do it; he allowed natural manifestation. That 'will' is a wrong interpretation of our true nature.
AEN: Do I say that to him?
John: Yes.
AEN: Okay.
John: Time to understand more about how 'thoughts' work. :P When we take 'thought' and dwell into the content, we will be affected. There is no escape. However, by concentrating on the virtuous qualities of the mind and nothing about the content of thoughts, we will be able to dissolve thoughts. Just the qualities. There is no need to care about the content... If he is able to dwell into those qualities, the content will subside. Because all along this has been overlooked, it cannot serve as a 'mantra' for overcoming problems.
