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Related Chinese video: https://youtu.be/RsHH2gOQHxM?si=2GlrgDErQl7edESV
Conversation — 11 February 2009
AEN:
When self becomes more and more transparent,
Likewise phenomena become more and more luminous.
In thorough transparency all happening are pristinely and vividly clear.
Obviousness throughout, aliveness everywhere!
This became apparent to me just now. The more the self disappears, the more everything manifests its clearness, naturalness, and spaciousness. But spaciousness is not like void; the more spacious, the more clear everything is. Today I am surprisingly awake even though I only slept 2 hours.
By the way, I posted something on Buddhism and Taoism here:
Thusness: Don't deviate from the path I wrote in the forum. Whatever you experienced is already this way; when you continue, you are only enhancing the imprints and ignorance. If you are unable to get out now, do you think you are able to get out after continuously re-enforcing your imprints? All actions leave imprints.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: Observe your thoughts; see, is there any agent? Truly experience it. If you see, you are naturally non-dual.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: So why is there a need to go a big round and end up with all wrong views? If there is no self, you are already most direct... where is there a need to be non-dual? If you don't understand propensities, you will never know how it blinds you. Yet even with anatta, you will still not understand Dependent Origination. If you are lucky, it takes you 3-5 years to have your divided consciousness view being replaced. If you are unlucky, it can take you lives.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: It is very difficult to have permanent lucidity and you should start from now. I am not belittling your teacher, but she is not there yet even at this age. Do you think you have that dedication and sincerity like her in practice?
AEN: No.
Thusness: So don't continue to enhance yourself with wrong understanding. Rather, after having the views, practice to have these views be authenticated in actual experience. When you realize anatta, there will be a period to get accustomed to sync your views with experience. It is not easy to do that. Yet it is very important because we don't know consciousness. In addition to non-dual and emptiness, you must experience imprints. And to have the right understanding, it can take you an entire life.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: If you practice like that of the Advaita, you will not even talk about imprints and dispositions. You do not know what is spontaneous arising in terms of Dependent Origination. You cannot know what intention is.
AEN: I see. By the way, did you see my messages earlier?
Thusness: Nope.
AEN: I can't remember what I sent you because I sent it in school. One of the things I asked you is what books to recommend "Thevoice."
Thusness: Regarding?
AEN: He sent me a link to Jill Bolte Taylor's video, then he asked me if I know of any talks. Then I sent him Toni Packer articles and the Tejananda articles, because I think it's more practical. I think he is looking for something more practical. I also told him he can look for Clarifying the Natural State. But he also mentioned Mahamudra is too complex for him; he got a bit of experience with that before or something last time. By the way, I also asked you—you mentioned last time Thevoice knows the luminosity aspect... but he told me something like he doesn't know what pure awareness means and he has never experienced that before. But enhanced or expanded awareness maybe. Books also, I mean. I told him he can get Toni Packer books.
Thusness: Yeah.
AEN: ?
Thusness: I said he treats it like individuality. He knows the "I", but as individuality. Not as pure awareness. I told you "I AM" has various phases. Means he knows he is not the body. Not the eternal witness sort of experience.
AEN: Different from witness?
Thusness: Not so much of witness but that he is more than a body. Like spirit, but not a direct experience of "I".
AEN: Not a direct experience of "I"? What do you mean?
Thusness: It is like what is being described in what you posted in the forum. It is not a direct experience of eternal witness. It is inferring, relating, testing. But the person knows he is not the body. Knows vaguely about awareness, but has not directly touched awareness. Do you know that touching awareness directly even at the "I AM" is totally different from what is being described? It is like what Ken Wilber said: beyond the shadow of doubt. Like what Ramakrishna described. It is not the part where he said he is being carried as if he is dead. That is like what Thevoice is experiencing. It is the direct experience of the "I AM". Complete stillness, ultimate, without thoughts. Complete certainty. Ramakrishna at a later phase is talking about that—resting completely as Self. I mean Ramana Maharshi...
AEN: Oh, haha. No wonder, never read much on Ramakrishna before.
Thusness: When he visualized that he is being dead and carried to be burnt, he realizes he is not the body. It is not the direct experience of "I AM".
AEN: Not?
Thusness: Yes, not. It is just a glimpse. Not that direct experience. That experience is like what a Zen master asking a koan—it is that sort of experience. Direct realization of the "I". Found it. Without thoughts, no inference, entire and complete. Just that experience rest in the "I", not as everything, and the empty nature is not seen. That experience is correct.
AEN: I see. Correct?
Thusness: Yeah. Have you read my Stage 4? I said the sound is exactly like "I AM".
AEN: It's same as "I AM" but in sound, etc., right? Oh, yes.
Thusness: It is not like your experience of sound.
AEN: What do you mean? It's totally non-dual you mean?
Thusness: Non-dual is no separation. There are differing degrees. Do you feel like you are God? When one experiences "I AM", he feels like he is God. That sort of experience. Can that experience be ordinary?
AEN: Nope.
Thusness: It is transcendental.
AEN: I see. Just now you said in the forum there's this article that was inferring and not direct experience.
Thusness: That is why one is led to the journey into perfecting that state. Like you do this, shake a bit then you realize that... like it is like a screen... nothing like that. You cannot understand awareness that way. Either by self-enquiry you directly experience it, or koan. There is no such thing as unsure.
AEN: I see.
Thusness: There are a few Ramanas.
AEN: It's Ramana Maharshi. But maybe it's not him.
Thusness: If a practitioner can experience like what Maharshi experience as SELF in anatta, then he is near full enlightenment.
AEN: I see. You mean someone who experiences anatta may not experience what Ramana experiences? Both are required?
Thusness: It is the thoroughness. And the depth and degree of luminosity. For non-dual anatta to have that sort of presence, there must be complete effortlessness. Because unlike concentrative mode of practice, non-dual or the formless and pathless path requires one to be completely effortless and spontaneous to have total non-dual luminosity.
AEN: I see. By the way, for Ramana it's still a concentrative mode of practice, right? Like abiding on self.
Thusness: To me, yes. The video is good. But don't...
AEN: Don't?
Thusness: It is a very good video. But don't post it in the forum.
AEN: Oh, haha, I see. Yes, I won't.
Thusness: If a person can have that experience then go into non-dual, it is different. If anatta can be experienced, it will be better.
AEN: I see. What do you mean 'it is different'?
Thusness: A person can experience non-dual, there is no separation, but there is no such experience like "I AM". So he does not have that 'quality' of experience. However, if a practitioner experiences that "I AM" then when non-dual, he knows that there is such an experience, and all experiences are really like that.
AEN: I see. The non-dual experience will be more in-depth?
Thusness: No. It is all the same. But found in all manifestation, not as a stage. I wrote in Luminous Emptiness that if luminosity and emptiness is taught but there is no realization that it is the great bliss, then one has not realized anything. But Chodpa said, not that it is pointless but just a step along the path. So what is the great bliss?
AEN: Absorption in luminosity? Clarity? I don't know. I have experience of bliss but don't know if it's what you mean.
Thusness: It is actually a sort of absorption.
AEN: Yes, I notice there's bliss when there's absorption.
Thusness: Will talk about that next time. I think I will write about anatta, so that you don't get confused with non-dual. Anatta is about no agent. Clarity that there is no agent. And because there is no agent, it has to be direct.
AEN: I see. Means in the sound just the sound.
Thusness: It is naturally non-dual.
AEN: I see. I wrote something to you just now but don't know if you received it.
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/2385161/Sharing+like+back+in+the+day...
Looking forward to hearing the discussion.
When self becomes more and more transparent,
Likewise phenomena become more and more luminous.
In thorough transparency all happening are pristinely and vividly clear.
Obviousness throughout, aliveness everywhere!
This became apparent to me just now. The more the self disappears, the more everything manifests its clearness, and naturalness, and spaciousness... but spaciousness is not like void... but the more spacious the more clear everything is... Today I am surprisingly awake even though I only slept 2 hours.
By the way, posted something on Buddhism and Taoism here:
Thusness: Yes. I want to experience this clarity. You must sleep. Later into anatta.
AEN: I slept I think 2 hours in the evening.
Thusness: What you experienced is non-dual. Now you must practice anatta and letting go. You will naturally experience that clarity. You must understand anatta and Dependent Origination also implies imprints. You are always dealing with imprints. Then wait for the right conditions for ripening of your experience.
AEN: I see.
