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- Soh Wei Yu
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Another description by U G Krishnamurti that I like:
Your movement of thought interferes with the process of touch, just as it does with the other senses. Anything you touch is always translated as 'hard', 'soft', 'warm', 'cold', 'wet', 'dry', and so on.
You do not realize it, but it is your thinking that creates your own body. Without this thought process there is no body consciousness -- which is to say there is no body at all. My body exists for other people; it does not exist for me; there are only isolated points of contact, impulses of touch which are not tied together by thought. So the body is not different from the objects around it; it is a set of sensations like any others. Your body does not belong to you.
Perhaps I can give you the 'feel' of this. I sleep four hours at night, no matter what time I go to bed. Then I lie in bed until morning fully awake. I don't know what is lying there in the bed; I don't know whether I'm lying on my left side or my right side -- for hours and hours I lie like this. If there is any noise outside -- a bird or something -- it just echoes in me. I listen to the "flub-dub-flub-dub" of my heart and don't know what it is. There is no body between the two sheets -- the form of the body is not there. If the question is asked, "What is in there?" there is only an awareness of the points of contact, where the body is in contact with the bed and the sheets, and where it is in contact with itself, at the crossing of the legs, for example. There are only the sensations of touch from these points of contact, and the rest of the body is not there. There is some kind of heaviness, probably the gravitational pull, something very vague. There is nothing inside which links up these things. Even if the eyes are open and looking at the whole body, there are still only the points of contact, and they have no connection with what I am looking at. If I want to try to link up these points of contact into the shape of my own body, probably I will succeed, but by the time it is completed the body is back in the same situation of different points of contact. The linkage cannot stay. It is the same sort of thing when I'm sitting or standing. There is no body.
Can you tell me how mango juice tastes? I can't. You also cannot; but you try to relive the memory of mango juice now -- you create for yourself some kind of an experience of how it tastes -- which I cannot do. I must have mango juice on my tongue -- seeing or smelling it is not enough -- in order to be able to bring that past knowledge into operation and to say "Yes, this is what mango juice tastes like." This does not mean that personal preferences and 'tastes' change. In a market my hand automatically reaches out for the same items that I have liked all my life. But because I cannot conjure up a mental experience, there can be no craving for foods which are not there.
Smell plays a greater part in your daily life than does taste. The olfactory organs are constantly open to odors. But if you do not interfere with the sense of smell, what is there is only an irritation in the nose. It makes no difference whether you are smelling cow dung or an expensive French perfume -- you rub the nose and move on.
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Soh Wei Yu shared a link.
Admin
Stream Entry
Myriad Objects gonna put your well written article explaining stream entry ( https://www.reddit.com/.../insight_buddhism_a... ) to the top of AtR blog tonight
[6:11 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: This article is written myriad object?
[6:14 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Should put geoff and myriad objects article in main link, I think it clears a lot of misconceptions.
Soh: Yeah.. ok
Main link as in the stickied posts in atr blog?
John Tan: Yes
Soh: Ok
[9:58 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Any links to insightful articles?
[9:58 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: I think a section on that is good
Soh: Ok.. later i think how to create
John Tan: Otherwise many ppl might missed all these good articles
[9:59 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Otherwise many ppl might missed all these good articles
[9:59 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: And its really difficult to search through the whole blog other than u 


[10:00 am, 19/04/2022] John Tan: Nafis is another one that probably went through the whole blog... Lol
Soh: yeah im surprise he is becoming like me.. many of the posts he pasted was what i wanted to pasted but lazy
lol
69 Comments
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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If
 anyone else has suggestions on what else to link under the new 
“insightful articles” section pls suggest here and i will consider
Ng Xin Zhao
Soh Wei Yu
 Maybe unrelated, you mentioned somewhere that John/ Thusness had the 
awakening experience in a previous life. Can one person attain to stream
 winning twice? Or had I misunderstood/ misremembered your statement?
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Ng Xin Zhao his view as i understand it is yes
Also the mahayana people understands that way
But anything after death will be a controversial topic
Like the topic of bardo and antarabhava
Theravadins usually dont believe
But some like ajahn brahmavamso seems to believe in antarabhava based on his experience
Also in suttas there is the verse “when consciousness descends into the womb” which is a reference to it
Likewise views of what happens after life would differ
The
 mahayana teachings are more elaborate, saying that unless you are at 
8th bhumi or above, at some point in the bardo or during birth and 
gestation you will forget your past life and will have to regain the 
realisation
But one generally is still on an irreversible conveyer belt to total liberation and full awakening
Ng Xin Zhao
Soh Wei Yu Huh... if you're right, it means basically anyone could have been a stream winner.... 
Well, there's at least a few things which should carry forward: https://suttacentral.net/an1.268-277/en/sujato... 
Some things becomes impossible to do. 
“It
 is impossible, mendicants, it cannot happen for a person accomplished 
in view to acknowledge another teacher. But it is possible for an 
ordinary person to acknowledge another teacher.”
Basically, will become Buddhist, not another religon.
SUTTACENTRAL.NET
suttacentral.net | 502: Bad gateway
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Ng Xin Zhao i would say that applies after you regain the realisation
It is impossible for me to believe in brahman or follow a teacher that teaches a substantialist atman brahman now
Cos there is no doubt here, there is no essence view, no self/Self
It is not by magical power that I avoid other teachers
I can still learn yoga and asanas from non buddhist and learn whatever is helpful pragmatically
But
 there is no way some other teachers can convince me at this point “no 
no, anatta and dependent origination is wrong. Brahman is the more 
ultimate view” i will just smile and think to myself “bro you are 
wasting your time”
Nafis Rahman
These are a few articles that might be worth including:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-not-self-or... (for refuting Thanissaro’s views on anatta)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../substantial-and... (clear and comprehensive description on the difference between substantialist and non-substantialist non-duality)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../no-mind-and-anatta... (no-mind vs anatta)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../suggestions-for... (different members who realized anatta)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../anatta-and-post... (William Kong’s anatta realization + John Tan’s comments)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-transient... (for understanding luminosity/presence, might be helpful for those who skipped I AM or followed MCTB)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/2580991161942298/ (if you agree I think this post on presence by Hale along with the comments by John Tan should be made into a new blog post)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../the-magical... (for motivating spiritual practitioners and to show what’s possible in terms of experiencing/actualizing post-anatta insights)
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../insight-diagnosis... (good summary of Thusness Stages)
For Stage 6:
Total Exertion:
Non-Arising: 
The latter I just copied from the sample atr practice guide.

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Different Degress of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
wow.. that's a lot 
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Thanks
William Lim
Would tagging the articles in the site based on the stages be useful?
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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William Lim Already have tags like "I AMness", "Non Dual", "Anatta", "Emptiness" etc
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Usually
 that corresponds to Stages 1-2, 4, 5, 6 respectively. But sometimes an 
article talks about many aspects. Keep in mind also that these stages 
are not strictly linear - http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../are-insight...

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Are the insight stages strictly linear?
Yin Ling
Admin
This article is superb. 
I
 followed the mctb path but in all honesty I never think fruition did 
much for me. It doesn’t change my experience or perception. It was nice 
to have, and it occurs involuntarily for me, now and then. 
It
 wasn’t until anatta insight that I understand the fetter system is 
speaking about THIS- the stage 5 ATr is talking about, not the mctb 
first path. 
Bec only with this insight , the afflictions can drop. It is very logical. Lol. 
Stream entry in the canon is a very rare attainment
Even First mctb path is very hard to achieve let alone steam entry. 
One need to work very very hard .
William Lim
Yin Ling & Soh Wei Yu,
 for clarity of path, and better understanding of insights... how does 
mctb maps map to atr maps? And to the aharant and bodhisattva paths? I'm
 sure someone must have written something about this.
Yin Ling
Admin
William Lim mctb 4th path = atr stage 5 
No self realisation 
Aka 
Canon stream entry 
Before that it is a completely different path 
Mctb is a gradual vipassana path 
ATR aims to bring one to direct realisation like zen and Mahamudra. 
That’s my understanding lah. 
Arahant
 is beyond atr. Coz it’s completely eradication of afflictions but ATr 
insights are prerequisites to eradicate these afflictions. Boddhisatvas 
path I’m not familiar I won’t comment. 
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
8th bhumi is similar to arahant in terms of overcoming mental afflictions like the three poisons
There are other fine differences but that is the area of overlap
Yin Ling
Admin
Because of delusion/ignorance 
It’s usually a lot of effort 
Search until you cannot search then only the mind will suddenly understand 
The mind is not a conscious thing like your rational thinking now 
When it understands the whole perception change suddenly 
The energy turn inside out , it’s palpable 
The core becomes empty 
The realisation causes a massive rewiring
The whole body wakes up 
The whole nervous system gets rewired 
One can literally feel it. 
And then there’s huge energetic release 
It’s like you go to the gym for 5 years and then you look different. 
If
 one don’t do any work, all these doesn’t happen. I haven’t meet anyone 
who hasn’t practise sincerely and work quite hard before Anatta insight 
Maybe others have meet some 
It is why also why Dogen went to China. He has asked the same Q as you 
Yin Ling
Admin
From wiki 
4]
Early training Edit
At
 some later point, Dōgen became a low-ranking monk on Mount Hiei, the 
headquarters of the Tendai school of Buddhism. According to the Kenzeiki
 (建撕記), he became possessed by a single question with regard to the 
Tendai doctrine:
As
 I study both the exoteric and the esoteric schools of Buddhism, they 
maintain that human beings are endowed with Dharma-nature by birth. If 
this is the case, why did the Buddhas of all ages — undoubtedly in 
possession of enlightenment — find it necessary to seek enlightenment 
and engage in spiritual practice?[5][6]
This
 question was, in large part, prompted by the Tendai concept of original
 enlightenment (本覚 hongaku), which states that all human beings are 
enlightened by nature and that, consequently, any notion of achieving 
enlightenment through practice is fundamentally flawed.[7]
The
 Kenzeiki further states that he found no answer to his question at 
Mount Hiei, and that he was disillusioned by the internal politics and 
need for social prominence for advancement.[3] Therefore, Dōgen left to 
seek an answer from other Buddhist masters. He went to visit Kōin, the 
Tendai abbot of Onjō-ji Temple (園城寺), asking him this same question. 
Kōin said that, in order to find an answer, he might want to consider 
studying Chán in China.[8] In 1217, two years after the death of 
contemporary Zen Buddhist Myōan Eisai, Dōgen went to study at Kennin-ji 
Temple (建仁寺), under Eisai's successor, Myōzen (明全).[3]
Travel to China Edit
In
 1223, Dōgen and Myōzen undertook the dangerous passage across the East 
China Sea to China to study in Jing-de-si (Ching-te-ssu, 景德寺) monastery 
as Eisai had once done.[citation needed]
In
 China, Dōgen first went to the leading Chan monasteries in Zhèjiāng 
province. At the time, most Chan teachers based their training around 
the use of gōng-àns (Japanese: kōan). Though Dōgen assiduously studied 
the kōans, he became disenchanted with the heavy emphasis laid upon 
them, and wondered why the sutras were not studied more. At one point, 
owing to this disenchantment, Dōgen even refused Dharma transmission 
from a teacher.[9] Then, in 1225, he decided to visit a master named 
Rújìng (如淨; J. Nyōjo), the thirteenth patriarch of the Cáodòng (J. Sōtō)
 lineage of Zen Buddhism, at Mount Tiāntóng (天童山 Tiāntóngshān; J. 
Tendōzan) in Níngbō. Rujing was reputed to have a style of Chan that was
 different from the other masters whom Dōgen had thus far encountered. 
In later writings, Dōgen referred to Rujing as "the Old Buddha". 
Additionally he affectionately described both Rujing and Myōzen as 
senshi (先師, "Ancient Teacher").[3]
Under
 Rujing, Dōgen realized liberation of body and mind upon hearing the 
master say, "Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò).
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Mr. OR Original Enlightenment vs Practice-Enlightenment
    John Tan
    When Dogen was still a monk in Tendai School, he was puzzled and 
couldn't understand the teaching of "original enlightenment". If we were
 originally enlightened, how can we be lost? Unsatisfied he traveled to 
China in search for answers and when he returned back to Japan, he began
 promoting "practice-enlighthment". What did Dogen realize from this 
koan of "original enlightenment" into "practice-enlightenment"?
    Those that went for the ATR gathering don't answer ah
.
    2

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Original Enlightenment vs Practice-Enlightenment
Cheng Chen
Yin Ling
 similar thoughts here. As much as we might complain about MCTB & 
Co., it did and continues to inspire many folks to go forth earnestly, 
including myself.
Yin Ling
Admin
Cheng Chen
 it did the same for me hence the respect for Ingram. I still respect 
him a lot no matter what he calls himself .. he is a good practitioner 
with strong knowledge , he has penetrative insight much more than what I
 have and a passion for helping ppl. 
I have alot to learn from him. 
It
 is only the system that can create confusion bec ppl who attain stream 
entry in his system will wonder - why do I still see from a self view 
but the sutta says when stream entry is realised self view is gone. What
 is this?
That was what I went through. So confused
It wasn’t until anatta insight I have the confidence that self view is gone  and willl never come back 
Then I know the mctb system is faulty lol
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Cheng Chen
 I remember reading MCTB 1 back in 2006. Was very impressed and so was 
John Tan. Highly recommended and I'm sure MCTB 2 is even much better 
with added feedback and improvements over a decade.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Session Start: Sunday, December 03, 2006
(9:39 PM) John: I have read more detail about Dharma Dan's PDF, he is truly enlightened. 
(9:39 PM) AEN: oic.. how come
(9:39 PM) John: i know lor...u can take that pdf seriously.
(9:40 PM) AEN: icic...
(9:40 PM) AEN: ok
(10:35 PM) John: hopefully he cleared his fetters..
(10:35 PM) John: his understanding is thorough. 
(10:35 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:39
 PM) John: my transparency is his precision about noticing the vibration
 of sensation.  This is a very important practice. 
(10:39 PM) John: But focus on the clarity i told u.
(10:40 PM) John: reality that instant of luminosity and it is gone.
(10:40 PM) John: if u thoroughly understand that, u understand ur nature.
(10:40
 PM) John: if u can understand what he said in terms of intuitive 
experience, the next steps is to stabilize it till the experience of 
total transparency.
(10:41 PM) John: u should take this self-claimed arahat seriously.
(10:41 PM) John: lol
(10:41 PM) John: got 'liao4' (substance). 
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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John Tan was so impressed he actually wanted to meet Daniel back then. 
Session Start: Friday, December 08, 2006
(10:09 PM) John: going australia tmr...eheheh
(10:09 PM) AEN: oo ok.. have a gd trip
(10:09 PM) John: thought can relax...but my wife told me is with a tour group...gonna be another tiring week.
(10:09 PM) John: lool
(10:14 PM) John: where is dharma dan located?
(10:14 PM) AEN: USA
(10:14 PM) John: is he an australian?
(10:14 PM) AEN: hahaha u wan to find him?
(10:14 PM) AEN: LOL
(10:15 PM) John: not autralia?
(10:15 PM) John: hahaha yeah...thought of if i am there...
(10:15 PM) AEN: oo cool
(10:15 PM) AEN: he lives in alabama
(10:15 PM) AEN: which is a state in USA
(10:15 PM) John: but too bad...i thought it was australia. 
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Nicely said. 
I
 would add that though stream entry is a not common attainment in 
general, still, the suttas recorded thousands of attainers (in Buddha’s 
times) and in this group there are quite many 
 just so that people don’t think its an impossible feat
Yesterday
 I was reading through mindfulness, bliss and beyond by ajahn brahm 
after writing about the last citadel of self which i remembered reading 
from years ago.
Im
 convinced ajahn brahm has attained similar realisation of anatta (which
 unfortunately is not common at all even among well known theravadin 
teachers) and he too has a similar definition of stream entry. I would 
say, better definition than mctb whose 4th path is actually more like 
sutta stream entry
William Lim
Soh Wei Yu
 Yes, and it is this value that ATR provides. That attainment of varying
 degrees is possible in this lifetime. Which is why the closeted yogis 
need to step forward 
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu yea this group is surprisingly many, probably birds of same feather 
Which
 tend to create a false impression like its too common and “let’s go for
 arahantship, stream entry is only entry level” lol 
It is achievable if one prioritise it in their life 
But without effort it is very hard to see.
Tan Jui Horng
Admin
Soh Wei Yu
 Actually it seems that we may actually have quite a number of 
sakadagamis, given that it's not just the first 3 fetters having fallen,
 but for some, sensual desire and ill-will have also been attenuated.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Tan Jui Horng idk its very vague how much is considered attenuated so i generally don’t speculate
Yesterday
 was reading ajahn brahm book, he also mentioned about this vagueness of
 sakadagami and concluded that only a buddha in his omniscience can 
determine whether someone is sakadagami
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Anagami and arahant on the other hand has more clear cut markers
Tan Jui Horng
Admin
True,
 I always felt the historical Buddha was really compassionate at 
categorizing attainments. Sotapanna level is just first 3 fetters and 
(at least officially) insight progressing into actual behaviour change 
at the reactionary level being the huge gulf between sotapanna and 
anagami, the latter which is indeed extremely rare to the point of 
people doubting the possibility.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Tan Jui Horng maybe they are around but we just don’t know. Maybe ajahn brahm is an arahant, who knows? But due to vinaya they cannot reveal.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Anagami is characterized by buddha in terms mastery of samadhi that is lacking in sotapanna and sakadagami.
Theoretically
 speaking, it will not be difficult for ajahn brahm to reach anagami and
 arahant with his samadhi mastery combined with the correct insights.
Yin Ling
Admin
Soh Wei Yu some ppl say only anagami can access nirodha samapati and ajahn brahm has describe it 
But of course I’m totally just speculating
Mr./Ms. DL
Soh Wei Yu
 yes i think there was a very informative ingram interview on guruviking
 back in 2019. He went through a very informative quickfire towards the 
end of the talk about all stages, its very fast and caffeinated but has 
value on this topic. He mentions that there are so many meditators who 
really believe they attained stream entry when upon further 
investigation it was simply just arising and passing stages which can be
 easy to confuse. He then goes on to explain the next 3 stages and how 
to attain them and how they can also be confused.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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Mr./Ms. DL Yes, but his MCTB 1 to 3 are not what we here considers sutta stream entry which is more akin to MCTB 4th path.
Cheng Chen
In
 recent years, I’ve come to see MCTB 4th as the initial breakthrough for
 stream entry - the experiential setup. But there’s still a dawning of 
the realization itself, an integration if you will, that results in more
 of the Anatta discussed here.
Breakthrough != realization and MCTB/pragmatic are hyper focused to breakthroughs with very little support for realization.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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This is one of the articles i shared with you also
Mr./Ms. WA
Going
 to go out on a limb and really disagree with Soh here.  The fetters 
model is so dogmatic.  This just feels so wrong to me.  Who cares what 
the Buddha said?  I mean this respectfully, but he was just a dude.  
This is about what is most deeply True, not about what some guy said 
thousands of years ago.  It can be useful if it helps you get there 
yourself, but I think many of you that "grew up" inside of Buddhism 
don't realize how much it shapes your epistemology and framing.  It is 
an ugly model at best when you view it from the outside.  Sometimes it 
is helpful but other times a totally secular and heart/intuition-baser 
approach is wildly more freeing.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
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I
 disagree. I believe most of us here with the experiential insights can 
see from experience how insights correlate to the release of afflictions
 and fetters. I have also written a chapter about it in the AtR guide
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Mr./Ms. WA i also like how Kyle expressed:
"...The
 anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part
 I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the 
strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts 
have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also 
able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. 
But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to 
whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of 
experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet 
timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013
“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.
Anatta
 realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how
 John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for 
lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the 
event. The nature of this realization is not often described in 
traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is 
very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” 
that “burns” the kleśas.
The
 reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this 
wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are 
subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is 
contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle
 Dixon, 2019
“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021
Mr. J.P. H
Soh Wei Yu
 "The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions" - I AM does 
this too. Not sure if this is due to brief no-self that comes with it or
 not. But it is very noticable.
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr. J.P. H agree. 
Along the path the afflictions drops slowly. With practise it keeps dropping, hence practise is always beneficial
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
I also actually like what some of Actual Freedom teachings describe but I do not necessarily agree on all their points of view
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
I do agree with heart based approach though. 
And i have to stress that overcoming kleshas has nothing to do with suppressing them.
That would be akin to trimming the branches but liberation requires uprooting the stems in the analogy Yin Ling provided yesterday
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr./Ms. WA i didnt grow up with buddhism.
I didn't understand the fetter system until i have some insight. 
MCTB
 stream entry did not resonate with me though my teacher tell me I 
attain it, I know something is not right so I didnt stop at first path. I
 don't go around telling ppl what I attain bec it doesnt feel authentic 
to me. In fact, I practise harder. Maybe something in my past lives etc 
inform this intuition, but I know this is not IT. 
When
 i saw what i saw, the Buddha's words sounds completely different from 
when I first read it. It was total clarity. It was OMG....geez. Suddenly
 the whole sutta felt like I could have written it, this is not a 
show-off, but i trust alot of ppl will feel the same way. they are just 
incredibly humble. I am saying this just to show what is possible. 
One then have complete and total reverence for Sakyamuni Buddha. not forced reverence. It's faith borne of knowlegde.
Actually
 I sometimes feel tired talking about this, becuase i understand what 
the buddha is talking about, I understand the depth, I could see, and I 
could understand, in a deep deep way, in a way many ppl who pooh pooh 
the teaching don't understand, so it exhaust me. I try to send my 
message across when I have the energy to, coz I don't need validation or
 approval, it all is like the buddha called, wisdom eye. but it cannot 
be proven like science. 
Sometimes
 I am impressed with Soh's patience , ppl like Angelo, doing this for 
years and not get tired. I get tired easily lol i won't make a good 
teacher.
Then
 again, I feel its a responsibility to correct wrong views if one is 
given the  good fortune to have insight. So i try my best. 
Its
 also good to not pooh pooh the teachings if one cannot see yet. give it
 benefit of doubt, leave it and come back again. Dunning Kruger is like 
that. We don't see so we think it is wrong or dogmatic. and we create 
our own system and we disagree with something that has worked for 2600 
years. our arrogance will be our biggest downfall.
Mr./Ms. WA
Yin Ling
 It's fine to find truth in the sutras, but I think the massive error is
 to judge attainments by fetters.  This is correlation vs causation, 
IMO, and is extremely problematic given the complex nature of humans, 
mind-bodies, and our many situations.  Ingram makes this argument very 
effectively, particularly from the perspective that judging attainments 
this way is far more likely to lead to suppression and totally warped 
people than to judge it by insight and experiential reality alone.  
Insight is insight, the body-mind results may or may not follow.  The 
teachers I trust all confirm that true realization needs no 
verification, so when people get extremely wrapped up in "this is 4th 
path or that is 4th path", I find that pretty indicative that there's a 
lot of ego and conceptuality at play rather than realization.  You'll 
never hear Adyashanti call himself an Arhat, yet he is deeply deeply 
realized.  
At
 the very least, it's not helpful for me and mostly discouraging.  This 
is a journey within our truest nature, and I do not care where any of 
you think I am.  The deepest realization will discard all states and 
stages anyway, and defy language completely.
Yin Ling
Admin
Mr./Ms. WA I agree with you on  - 
There’s no point labelling ppl with attainments. 
But that doesn’t mean that the fetter system does not work or is wrong. 
If
 one attain no self realisation, one will understand why the 1st and 2nd
 fetters are also let go off, and how and why the 7 fetters are 
something that need to be gradually let go off after that. 
One has a framework of practise. The last bit of conceit is not let go until near arahantship. 
It is for us to guide practise, not for us to categorise ppl, you are right in this
But
 to say that Buddha is just a dude and “who cares about what he says” is
 abit much and very arrogant. Saying “ugly model” when it is in the 
canon is not very respectful to those who practise sincerely and manage 
to escape from the fetters
Daniel
 Ingram claim Arahant ship yet claim he still have lust, desire and 
emotional afflictions. I highly respect him but that is not something I 
aim to follow.. 
The Buddha words has its truth and if we haven’t attain, at least give benefit of doubt and respect
Tommy McNally
Mr./Ms. WA If you don't care what the Buddha said, why are your practicing Buddhadharma?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you're coming at this from MCTB and the pragmatic dharma community?
I
 didn't "'grow up' inside of Buddhism"; I came to the Buddhadharma after
 15+ years of study and practice within the Western Mystery Traditions. I
 actually disliked Buddhism for a long, long time until it became the 
only model that correlated with the insights and realisations I was 
experiencing. It's for this reason that I now have absolute faith (based
 on experience, rather than blind acceptance) in what the Buddha taught,
 but also why I understand where you're coming from. I also said very 
similar things to you in the past after reading MCTB and joining the 
Dharma Overground; you can verify this as my posts on the DhO go back 
over a decade.
Don't
 get caught up in maps and models. Just because one model doesn't align 
with your current understanding, it doesn't mean it should be dismissed 
in toto. Furthermore, unless you've attained liberation from samsara, 
you're in no position to tell others how to practice or what works best.
Mr. OR
"Consciousness/Awareness
 ceases to appear as a substantial and unchanging core of their direct 
experience, and it is now known to be always specific 
(eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness...etc"
How could this be? To whom does it appear this way?
Like
 Rupert says, reality would have to be fragmented and discontinuous if 
this was the case. But there is never in actual experience separate 
consciousnesses.
It
 seems this article is keen to differentiate Buddhism as the One True 
Path TM, and as such attempts to set up this 'there is no awareness' as a
 definjng dogma. Pass.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
After
 experiential insight of anatta, it is clear without doubt that there is
 no unchanging consciousness. This is the defining difference between 
Thusness Stage 4 and Stage 5.
Let's
 see how Greg Goode, which you can hardly take to be a 'dogmatic 
Buddhist', and U.G Krishnamurti describes the discontinuity of 
consciousness (the latter not even being 'Buddhist' at all): 
Greg Goode: 
Stian,
 cool, get into that strangeness! There is a certain innocent, 
not-knowing quality to strangeness that counteracts the rush to 
certainty, the need to arrive, to land.
I still don't get your "no compromise" point. Can you rephrase it, but without the words "between" or "compromise"?
Anything
 can be denied. And is. There is one prominent Advaita teacher that I 
like who likes to say "You can't deny that you are the awareness that is
 hearing these words right now."
This kind of gapless continuity, so prized in Advaita, is readily denied in other approaches to experience:
you. can't. deny. that. you. are. the. awareness. hearing. these. words. right. now.
I
 remember feeling during one retreat, just how many ways that this could
 be denied. From a different model of time and experience, there are 
gaps and fissures all over the place, even in that sentence (hence. the.
 dots). Each moment is divided within itself, carrying traces of past 
and future (retention and protention). The first "you"-moment and the 
second "you"-moment are not necessarily experienced by the same entity. 
Each "I" is different. Entitification itself is felt as autoimmune, as 
divided within itself, and any "gaplessness" is nothing more than a 
paste-job.
Not saying one of these is right and the other wrong. Just pointing out how something so undeniable can readily be denied!
......
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Greg Goode: 
Dr. Greg Goode wrote in Emptything:
It
 looks your Bahiya Sutta experience helped you see awareness in a 
different way, more .... empty. You had a background in a view that saw 
awareness as more inherent or essential or substantive?
I
 had an experience like this too. I was reading a sloka in Nagarjuna's 
treatise about the "prior entity," and I had been meditating on 
"emptiness is form" intensely for a year. These two threads came 
together in a big flash. In a flash, I grokked the emptiness of 
awareness as per Madhyamika. This realization is quite different from 
the Advaitic oneness-style realization. It carries one out to the 
"ten-thousand things" in a wonderful, light and free and kaleidoscopic, 
playful insubstantial clarity and immediacy. No veils, no holding back. 
No substance or essence anywhere, but love and directness and intimacy 
everywhere...

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Greg Goode on Advaita/Madhyamika
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
U.G Krishnamurti:
 Is there in you an entity which you call the 'I' or the 'mind' or the 
'self'? Is there a co- ordinator who is co-ordinating what you are 
looking at with what you are listening to, what you are smelling with 
what you are tasting, and so on? Or is there anything which links 
together the various sensations originating from a single sense -- the 
flow of impulses from the eyes, for example? Actually, there is always a
 gap between any two sensations. The co-ordinator bridges that gap: he 
establishes himself as an illusion of continuity.
In
 the natural state there is no entity who is co-ordinating the messages 
from the different senses. Each sense is functioning independently in 
its own way. When there is a demand from outside which makes it 
necessary to co-ordinate one or two or all of the senses and come up 
with a response, still there is no co-ordinator, but there is a 
temporary state of co- ordination. There is no continuity; when the 
demand has been met, again there is only the unco-ordinated, 
disconnected, disjointed functioning of the senses. This is always the 
case. Once the continuity is blown apart -- not that it was ever there; 
but the illusory continuity -- it's finished once and for all.
Can
 this make any sense to you? It cannot. All that you know lies within 
the framework of your experience, which is of thought. This state is not
 an experience. I am only trying to give you a 'feel' of it, which is, 
unfortunately, misleading.
When
 there is no co-ordinator, there is no linking of sensations, there is 
no translating of sensations; they stay pure and simple sensations. I do
 not even know that they are sensations. I may look at you as you are 
talking. The eyes will focus on your mouth because that is what is 
moving, and the ears will receive the sound vibrations. There is nothing
 inside which links up the two and says that it is you talking. I may be
 looking at a spring bubbling out of the earth and hear the water, but 
there is nothing to say that the noise being heard is the sound of 
water, or that that sound is in any way connected with what I am seeing.
 I may be looking at my foot, but nothing says that this is my foot. 
When I am walking, I see my feet moving -- it is such a funny thing: 
"What is that which is moving?"
What functions is a primordial consciousness, untouched by thought. 
...
 You must always recognize what you are looking at, otherwise you are 
not there. The moment you translate, the 'you' is there. You look at 
something and recognize that it is a bag, a red bag. Thought interferes 
with the sensation by translating. Why does thought interfere? And can 
you do anything about it? The moment you look at a thing, what comes 
inside of you is the word 'bag', if not bag', then 'bench' or 
'bannister', 'step', "that man sitting there, he has white hair." It 
goes on and on -- you are repeating to yourself all the time. If you 
don't do that, you are preoccupied with something else: "I'm getting 
late for the office." You are either thinking about something which is 
totally unrelated to the way the senses are functioning at this moment, 
or else you are looking and saying to yourself "That's a bag, that's a 
red bag," and so on and so on -- that is all that is there. The word 
'bag' separates you from what you are looking at, thereby creating the 
'you'; otherwise there is no space between the two.
Every
 time a thought is born, you are born. When the thought is gone, you are
 gone. But the 'you' does not let the thought go, and what gives 
continuity to this 'you' is the thinking. Actually there is no permanent
 entity in you, no totality of all your thoughts and experiences. You 
think that there is 'somebody' who is thinking your thoughts, 'somebody'
 who is feeling your feelings --- that's the illusion. I can say it is 
an illusion; but it is not an illusion to you.
Your
 emotions are more complex, but it is the same process. Why do you have 
to tell yourself that you are angry, that you are envious of someone 
else, or that sex is bothering you? I am not saying anything about 
fulfilling or not fulfilling. There is a sensation in you, and you say 
that you are depressed or unhappy or blissful, jealous, greedy, envious.
 This labelling brings into existence the one who is translating this 
sensation. What you call "I" is nothing but this word 'red bag', 
'bench', 'steps', 'banister', 'light bulb', 'angry', 'blissful', 
'jealous', or whatever. You are putting your brain cells to unnecessary 
activity making the memory cells operate all the time, destroying the 
energy that is there. This is only wearing you out.
This
 labelling is necessary when you must communicate with someone else or 
with yourself. But you communicate with yourself all the time. Why do 
you do this? The only difference between you and the person who talks 
aloud to himself is that you don't talk aloud. The moment you do begin 
to talk aloud, along comes the psychiatrist. That chap, of course, is 
doing the same thing that you are doing, communicating to himself all 
the time -- 'bag', 'red bag', 'obsessive', 'compulsive', 'Oedipus 
complex,' 'greedy', 'bench', 'banister', 'martini'. Then he says 
something is wrong with you and puts you on the couch and wants to 
change you, to help you.
Why
 can't you leave the sensations alone? Why do you translate? You do this
 because if you do not communicate to yourself, you are not there. The 
prospect of that is frightening to the 'you'. 
...
 The eyes are like a very sensitive camera. The physiologists say that 
light reflected off objects strikes the retina of the eye and the 
sensation goes through the optic nerve to the brain. The faculty of 
sight, of seeing, is simply a physical phenomenon. It makes no 
difference to the eyes whether they are focused on a snow-capped 
mountain or on a garbage can: they produce sensations in exactly the 
same way. the eyes look on everyone and everything without 
discrimination.
You have
 a feeling that there is a 'cameraman' who is directing the eyes. But 
left to themselves -- when there is no 'cameraman' -- the eyes do not 
linger, but are moving all the time. They are drawn by the things 
outside. Movement attracts them, or brightness or a color which stands 
out from whatever is around it. There is no 'I' looking; mountains, 
flowers, trees, cows, all look at me. The consciousness is like a 
mirror, reflecting whatever is there outside. The depth, the distance, 
the color, everything is there, but there is nobody who is translating 
these things. Unless there is a demand for knowledge about what I am 
looking at, there is no separation, no distance from what is there. It 
may not actually be possible to count the hairs on the head of someone 
sitting across the room, but there is a kind of clarity which seems as 
if I could.
The eyes do 
not blink, except when there is sudden danger -- this is something very 
natural because the things outside are demanding attention all the time.
 Then, when the eyes are tired, a built-in mechanism in the body cuts 
them out -- they may be open, but they are blurred. But if the eyes stay
 open all the time, if the reflex action of blinking is not operating, 
they become dry and you will go blind; so there are some glands beyond 
the outer corners of the eyes, which are not activated in your case, 
which act as a watering mechanism. Tears flow all the time from the 
outer corners. Ignorant people have described them as 'tears of joy' or 
'tears of bliss'. There is nothing divine about them. By practicing not 
blinking, one will not arrive in this state; one will only strain the 
eyes. And there are neurotics in mental hospitals whose eyes do not 
blink for one reason or another -- for them it is a pathological 
condition. But once you are in your natural state, by some luck or some 
strange chance, all this happens in its own way.

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
U.G. Krishnamurti: The Mystique of Enlightenment
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
All
 these described above are also my day to day experience after 
experiential insight of anatta. But I wanted to quote some people who we
 can universally agree are far from being "dogmatic", even though I do 
not consider AtR people here dogmatic.
Mr. OR
Soh Wei Yu
 but even in the expression, " my day to day experience" those senses 
are united in a single experience. It couldn't be otherwise.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
There
 is nothing that unifies experience here. There are memories of a past 
experience, but each moment is unique and there is no referencepoint or 
centerpoint or a unifying ground to which the different moments refer 
back to. And yet in this unique instant you can feel the total exertion 
of all times and the entire universe in that moment of activity.
Dogen puts it this way: 
"
Firewood
 becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose
 that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand 
that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which 
fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. 
Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes 
future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after 
it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.
This
 being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth 
turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an
 unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into
 birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.
Birth
 is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete 
this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the
 beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring."
Also,
[27/1/16,
 12:47:33 AM] John Tan: Each form is time anew and each time is an anew 
form.  Hearing sound, that is time.  Seeing colors that is time.  
Actually awareness is altogether forgotten and not needed, so is 
duration.  Only when u step out of "being-time", duration arises.  That 
is what I  think Dogen meant by being-time.
[27/1/16,
 1:01:09 AM] John Tan: Also when Dogen say being-time, time is also not 
just a brief instance, nor is it linear. Past is not before present and 
present is not before future.  The whole of one's entire past and the 
whole of one's entire future is fully exerted in a single instant 
manifested as form.
[27/1/16,
 1:17:31 AM] John Tan: To hv a heart to heart communication with Dogen, u
 must read with the wisdom of total exertion.  A brief instance of 
wisdom is at the same time the full exertion of an infinite lifetimes 
wisdom.  This is not abt beautiful words, u must fully feel it.

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Genjo Koan: Actualizing the Fundamental Point
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
" my day to day experience" 
Could better be put this way: day1 experience, day2 experience.
Both are unique. And there is no 'my' or 'me' behind these experiences.
Anything that refers to "me" just conventional parlance as Buddha taught many times
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
If
 on the other hand you are practicing self-enquiry, then you just focus 
on Who am I that's it. But at later phases of insight you'll have to 
investigate the above.
John Tan wrote in Dharma Overground back in 2009,
“Hi Gary,
It
 appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one 
adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite
 new here so I may be wrong.
My
 take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are 
experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the
 ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, 
Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would 
require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the 
‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of 
spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.
On
 the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual 
approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to 
gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot 
downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience 
the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine 
nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come 
face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of
 non-dual awareness.
Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.
Awakening
 to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; 
that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts
 and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a 
kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without
 intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object 
gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the 
‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same
 ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be 
it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of 
immediacy'.”
Mr. OR
Soh Wei Yu
 I can only go by experience, and in experience there is the sound of 
rain, a tingling sensation, the sight of this screen, etc. There are no 
Chinese walls separating these phenomena. They happen in one awareness, 
not three separate awarenesses.
If your experience is different, who am I to argue? But I cannot imagine such a fractured, schizophrenic existence.
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
Mr. OR In my I AM phase, everything happens within a single substratum of awareness/consciousness.
That
 background is seen through in anatta. And indeed everything is 
disjointed and uncoordinated. All these are described in the 2nd 'must 
read' article by John Tan https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/.../on-anatta...
It's important to keep an open and contemplative mind for progress. Otherwise you'll get stuck with some stages of realization.

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
And
 as Greg Goode wrote "It looks your Bahiya Sutta experience helped you 
see awareness in a different way, more .... empty. You had a background 
in a view that saw awareness as more inherent or essential or 
substantive?
I had an 
experience like this too. I was reading a sloka in Nagarjuna's treatise 
about the "prior entity," and I had been meditating on "emptiness is 
form" intensely for a year. These two threads came together in a big 
flash. In a flash, I grokked the emptiness of awareness as per 
Madhyamika. This realization is quite different from the Advaitic 
oneness-style realization. It carries one out to the "ten-thousand 
things" in a wonderful, light and free and kaleidoscopic, playful 
insubstantial clarity and immediacy. No veils, no holding back. No 
substance or essence anywhere, but love and directness and intimacy 
everywhere..."
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
I
 have no idea what you mean by "schizophrenic" but here there is no 
imagination whatsoever, and also no question of identities. I don't know
 if you mean multiple personality disorders but in anatta there is no 
self nor Self, no identity whatsoever in any way, shape, and form.
Only in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, so on and so forth.
Mr. OR
Soh Wei Yu if there is no self for you, how can you talk about your experience?
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
That question supposes that talking is initiated by an agent, a talker.
The
 anatta insight is precisely the realisation that all actions does not 
need an agent much like "lightning" is simply "flash", it is simply an 
illusory construct that lightning is an agent which initiates flash, or 
wind is an agent that initiates blowing, or river is an agent that 
initiates flowing, etc. Both words are just that activity, that 
manifestation. 
Likewise
 awareness is not an agent behind experience but is simply the 
experience in all its vivid colors, sounds, sensations. There is no one 
singular awareness behind experience. That is anatta insight.
The Buddha rejected the "who" question and asks, with what condition X arise? This leads to insight of conditionality.
Short excerpt: 
"Who, O Lord, feels?"
"The
 question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he 
feels.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be 
appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the 
question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the 
correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling; and 
feeling is the condition of craving.'"
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Flawed Mode of Enquiry
Soh Wei Yu
Author
Admin
And likewise there is simply experience, no experiencer. 
It
 is only a convenient convention to call it "my experience", when in 
truth there is no I, me, or mine whatsoever. Everything just rolls and 
knows without a knower.
“Would an arahant say "I" or "mine"?
Other
 devas had more sophisticated queries. One deva, for example, asked the 
Buddha if an arahant could use words that refer to a self:
"Consummate with taints destroyed,
One who bears his final body,
Would he still say 'I speak'?
And would he say 'They speak to me'?"
This
 deva realized that arahantship means the end of rebirth and suffering 
by uprooting mental defilements; he knew that arahants have no belief in
 any self or soul. But he was puzzled to hear monks reputed to be 
arahants continuing to use such self-referential expressions.
The Buddha replied that an arahant might say "I" always aware of the merely pragmatic value of common terms:
"Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions."
The
 deva, trying to grasp the Buddha's meaning, asked whether an arahant 
would use such expressions because he is still prone to conceit. The 
Buddha made it clear that the arahant has no delusions about his true 
nature. He has uprooted all notions of self and removed all traces of 
pride and conceit:
"No knots exist for one with conceit cast off;
For him all knots of conceit are consumed.
When the wise one has transcended the conceived
He might still say 'I speak,'
And he might say 'They speak to me.'
Skillful, knowing the world's parlance,
He uses such terms as mere expressions." (KS I, 21-22; SN 1:25)” - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/.../jootla/wheel414.html

ACCESSTOINSIGHT.ORG
Teacher of the Devas
Cheng Chen
I
 remember reading this awhile ago - agreed with nearly all points, and 
especially on Anatta being, more or less, sutta stream entry. I recall 
this was also one of the better mechanistic rebuttals against the 
over-hyped pragmatic dharma “cessation stream entry” MCTB inspired 
stuff…

