Someone asked, "What is the main difference between I Am and 'I Am Everything' when it comes to end of sense of separateness (experience of oneness)? Does nondual manifest in the I Am stage?"

Let me quote from Thusness conversations back in 2007:

2007

Thusness: First is the experience of "I AMness," and the fusing of things into I. Now what is the major difference between 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6?

AEN: Back. Hmm. Stage 1 is like you said, a dot in the center.

Thusness: No good... Everything I said is all related in all those 6 stages.... And everything till now is not beyond that... You will see and witness whatever that I have written are all elaborations of these 6 stages. So put them into perspective.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: What are the first 2 stages about?

AEN: I AMness?

Thusness: What is "I AMness"? What about merging with everything?

AEN: A sense of presence, existence, beyond all that is 'experienced'? Merging with everything is like experiencing a temporary fusing of presence with everything?

Thusness: No good... You have not understood the essence of it. The first 2 stages are all about Self. It is regarding source... It is always regarding the subject...

AEN: Ah yes, wanted to write about the subject, then suddenly forgot.

Thusness: It is Advaita Vedanta.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: All about sinking back to a source. Stage 2 is like non-dual and sunk back to a source. It is always the source... the Self, the background, even if you fuse and merge into everything. Get it?

AEN: Yeah.

Thusness: What about the 3rd stage?

AEN: Trying to get rid of the self to fuse?

Thusness: What is the problem?

AEN: The nature of awareness is not understood?

Thusness: Nope.... It is about bonds.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: The 13 years are all about understanding bonds... Why is there sinking back to a source? So it takes 13 years to understand the impact of a bond.... That is why I said most people underestimated the power of the bond.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: What about the 4th stage?

AEN: Mirror bright? Awareness reflecting everything?

Thusness: Yeah, but what does that not mean, what is the essence, and what is the difference between 2 and 4?

AEN: Stage 2 doesn't know awareness reflects everything every moment?

Thusness: Nope...

AEN: Only fusing? I see.

Thusness: It is the phenomenon... The stress is on phenomenon. The experience is the 'Presence,' but this time it is not "I AM," not "before birth who am I?" It is the sound. It is the taste. It is the scenery. Get it?

AEN: Yeah.

Thusness: The manifestations.

AEN: Actually stage 2 also, right? Fusing.

Thusness: No, no... Stage 2 is sinking back to a source. The focus is the source. Get it?

AEN: I see. Then what about the fusing?

Thusness: The experience is always the same, but the emphasis is different. 1 and 2 are always about the subject.

AEN: I see. By the way, mirror still has a background, isn't it?

Thusness: And in stage 2, object merges into subject, and stays in the subject, which is the essence of Hinduism. Stage 4 is on object... only on the object.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Like the stage 1 of the source. Stage 5 is non-dual on the object; the background is gone. It is subject into object. Get it? Only the phenomenon arising.

AEN: Okay, but stage 4, you said only object already, no subject?

Thusness: But stage 4 is like the stage 1 of Vedanta.

AEN: Huh.

Thusness: But this time it is on the object.

AEN: Then isn't it 'subject into object' of stage 5? Okay, stage 4 is a background, but this time the background has everything in it?

Thusness: That is why I said it is like the stage 1 of "I AMness." It is the beginning of entering and realising the object aspect. "I AMness" is the beginning of experiencing the subject aspect. Get it?

AEN: I see. I mean, what's the difference between stage 4 and 5 since it's all on object?

Thusness: Stage 4 is the beginning... Stage 5 is thoroughness. That is, there is realisation of the object, and the clarity is on the phenomenon. But the realisation of the non-dual nature of awareness is not there... That is, there is clarity on the focus of object, but there is still a background reflecting. There is not much sinking back to a source, as focus has shifted to the clarity of the phenomenon. But stage 5 is thorough, only the phenomenon. The background is gone. Mind/body drop. Clearly, there awareness is the sunny sky, the mountains. Get it?

AEN: Yeah.

Thusness: Stage 6 is the non-local aspect of awareness and the oneness with conditions. I called it the emptiness nature.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: That is experiencing the interdependence as non-locality, not bounded in space and time. This is the non-local aspect of awareness.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: So all the 6 stages cover the initial experience of subject, the source, then the non-dual experience of subject-object but object into subject.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: That is more like Hinduism. Then 3 is the strength of the bond. 4 is the break-through of presence in seeing phenomenon. 5 is non-dual of our nature in subject into object. 6 is non-local aspect. Get it?

AEN: I see. Yeah.

Thusness: Most people will go through these 6 stages when experiencing awareness.

2008

Thusness: Slowly tell him about stage 1-2 first. 1 is to have a direct glimpse of awareness, yet still being affected by the propensity of 'I'. Stage 2 is an experience of its relationship with phenomena and still having the propensity. First these 2. As long as you caution him that it is not it, it is okay.

12 MARCH 2008

AEN: Yesterday I had a rather strange experience. Quite difficult to describe. Feels like fading out of existence... and forcefully 'absorbed' into the surroundings... a bit intense... like as if entering a different state of consciousness. But lasted for a while, then returned.

Thusness: Hmm.... Not a good description.

AEN: Yeah, I don't know how to describe. But it was more intense than the other day.

Thusness: Is there clarity?

AEN: Yeah, I think so... just awareness as form.

Thusness: Did you sit?

AEN: Yeah, I was sitting.

Thusness: Oh... you opened your eyes. :P

AEN: Yeah, I opened my eyes because I felt a bit tired.

Thusness: Fading out of existence is not a good description then.

AEN: Is it? How come?

Thusness: It is just personality dissolving.

AEN: Yeah, I mean not becoming unconscious. I see.

Thusness: Knowing that you are not body or mind but mere luminosity. However, this is not the body/mind dropped yet.

AEN: Yeah, I had a feeling as if my body and mind are dissolving, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

Thusness: Yet you experienced vividness of forms.

AEN: Yeah.

Thusness: This is like stage 2.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: You need to do more summary of what I said about anatta. For now, you will not understand the profound meaning of anatta and emptiness in terms of experience. It will only come many, many years later. But it is sort of Advaita Vedanta experience.

Thusness: Stage 1, 2, and 3 are Advaita Vedanta. What you experienced is similar to Ramana Maharshi. He went through the same question, pretending that he is dead. A person undergoing stage 1, when he experiences stage 2, might not know the difference.

AEN: How come?

Thusness: There is no insight into it... because of propensities. He might not be able to see the conditions. So stage 1 is inner, stage 2 is outer. But deep in these practitioners, the views are still dual. You must also be deeply aware of these tendencies and their strength to blind. And that is what consciousness is all about: luminosity and tendencies and emptiness. That is all.

Thusness: Stage 4 is like stage 2 except with insight. The pathless is seen. It is no more like a stage... but the insight has no deep clarity. Propensities need to dissolve quite sufficiently to go into stage 5, as stated in the Bahiya Sutta.

AEN: Eckhart Tolle is like stage 4?

Thusness: That is a deeper insight.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Don't ask me. To me... ehee... like stage 2. :P But the strength of sustaining is strong. Tony Parsons is stage 4-5. Jeff Foster also. Observer and observed as one is non-dual experience. Stage 2 is non-dual. But there is no insight of no-self. Insight is you know and understand the pathless path of no-self. You see it although it is pathless. You see the path. This is due to insight and therefore there is more permanent lucidity. Stage 2 remains as a stage. You don't know how to get it, don't know when it comes again, or the path towards it.

AEN: I see. Yeah.

Thusness: Longchen (Sim Pern Chong) knows it, but needs to further refine it by penetrating into the deeper depth of non-dual and into anatta, as stated in the Bahiya Sutta. Then comes emptiness.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: So you understand more about the various stages?

AEN: Yeah.

Thusness: Stage 1 can be very blissful too.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: When the meditative strength is there. But there is no understanding of the 'forms,' only the pure sense of existence in thought realm, not in the 'forms'. You should know by now.

AEN: I see. Yeah.

Thusness: It is difficult for people who have no experience to know what I meant. But when you have experienced, you will know what I meant.

...

Thusness: Yeah... first neither Kevala nor Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi is no-self.

AEN: Yeah.

Thusness: There are 4 stages of I AMness. :)

AEN: 4th is mirror bright?

Thusness: Nope. Means within I AMness, there are 4 stages.

AEN: I see. What are the 4 stages?

Thusness: In 1 and 2. First one you already know. One is I AM as an individual Self... one is I AM as an infinite self of the first stage. That, I think, Longchen already told you and you asked me before.

AEN: I AM of individual is like Claudia? I AM of infinite is like what? Asked you what?

Thusness: That is within first stage. That is like what Longchen told you.

AEN: When?

Thusness: Infinite bliss of "I AM." He told you when you met up with him.

2008

Thusness: Does Ken (Ken Wilber) talk about anatta?

AEN: No.

Thusness: Or Advaita sort of understanding?

AEN: Advaita. (Ken Wilber is at Thusness Stage 4.)

Thusness: Then why do you keep asking me? What is anatta?

AEN: Yeah, but what I mean is, nondual experience is not as in stage 2 type of passing experience, but as everpresent reality? Anatta is no agent and dependent origination?

Thusness: Didn't I tell you understanding non-dual experience as verb. (Soh: refer to my article The Wind is Blowing, Blowing is the Wind (https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/08/the-wind-is-blowing.html))

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Not an entity that is independent and unchanging?

AEN: But Ken Wilber says, "You are that, and there is no you – just this entire luminous display spontaneously arising moment to moment. The separate self is nowhere to be found." *I see.

Thusness: Non-dual experience is there is clarity of no separation. (As in Thusness Stage 4.) Stage 2 is there is merging, as if I dissolved and merged... There are two; dual. Non-dual is there never was a separation. No split. There is no separate I. But this awareness is still very much constant, permanent, and unchanging. Anatta goes further and understands exactly what is non-dual experience. This is a break-through in insight.

AEN: I see. It's about discerning it as DO?

Thusness: There is thinking, no thinker. Seen, no seer. Sound, no hearer. Understood? Becoming, no being. Understand that object@

AEN: What do you mean?

Thusness: Object/subject is the result of compartmentizing 'verb'. Action.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Thinking becomes thinker and thoughts. That is anatta. It is the direct experience that there is no thinker, just thoughts. In seeing, always only the seen.

AEN: Is this what you mean by nondual yet permanent (for Ken Wilber): "You are not the one who experiences liberation; you are the clearing, the opening, the emptiness, in which any experience comes and goes, like reflections on the mirror. And you are the mirror, the mirror mind, and not any experienced reflection. But you are not apart from the reflections, standing back and watching. You are everything that is arising moment to moment. You can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp, it is so small, and you can taste the sky without moving an inch." I see.

Thusness: Yes, what I called desync of view and non-dual experience. When insight arises, there is no desync. Non-dual experience is clearly understood because there never was one. It is always only manifestation.

AEN: There never was what?

Thusness: DO is the operation mechanism of the Transience. A self. It is very difficult to have such clarity. Only Buddha has it. Even Buddhist practitioners have so many misconceptions. They can't see how consistent and precise the teaching is.

AEN: I see. By the way, this is not yet nondual experience, right? More like I AM?: "the world moves forward as it is..... but instead of seeing the diversity as the ultimate the One underneath it all is rested in..... Like the ocean reality or maya is simply the surface waves of moving consciousness.... shakti which manifests the underlying Ocean of Consciousness into a limited visible form..... But what is beneath and around and within that form is simply the same consciousness which comprises the Whole of the Ocean.... But in the calm of the depths you know the vastness instead of the limited......"

Thusness: Yes. Under the influence of the 'bond' without knowing it. Stage 1 to 6 cannot be skipped.

AEN: What do you mean?

Thusness: Best experienced that way. A practitioner cannot skip stages.

AEN: But Buddhist path skips some, right? Like Dharma Dan never go through 'I AM'.

Thusness: Yes. The depth of clarity will not be there. Like Grimnexus sees 4 same as 5. But a person that has undergone knows clearly.

AEN: Yeah, he thought it's the same. By the way, Grimnexus at stage 4, right?

Thusness: Like Ken and Ajahn Amaro, seems the same, but even Ajahn Amaro thought it is the same.

AEN: Long time never see him online already. He like never came online for many months. I see.

Thusness: Why do you worry so much about other people's stage? Rather pray hard that you will not be misled and go through countless lives of rebirth again. What you must have is to correctly discern. If you want to have clarity of the essence of the six phases, discern and understand correctly. What if I am no more around? If Ajahn Amaro cannot know the difference, much less others.

AEN: I see. Dharma Dan?

Thusness: Rather ask yourself, have you correctly understood, than about others. How would I know? You keep asking about others; I worry more about you. If you know, you will be able to know, are they there. Like Ken and Ajahn Amaro clearly have same experience but different understanding. David Loy treats them the same too, not realising the differences. So have the right understanding. One is abiding, the other is non-abiding. One is still efforting, the other is effortless. One is Brahman, the other is DO. One is mirror, the other is pure manifestation. 'Self' is grasped unknowingly because it is independent, changeless. Therefore they can't treasure the Transience. They can't see conditions. The Transience and conditions are most sacred. How can Self see this? But one must know the emptiness nature of Transience, unfindable and ungraspable, and arises when condition is. When we say attributes, we are referring to the empty nature of awareness.

AEN: What do you mean?

Thusness: But awareness is full of colors.

AEN: You mean attributelessness? I see.

Thusness: Like 'redness' of a flower. But to Advaitins, it is absence, nothing to do with awareness.

AEN: You mean they see awareness as formless?

Thusness: Yes. Means absence of attributes as colorless, formless. But what Buddhism is referring to is its emptiness nature, not that there is a real formless entity. Awareness is appearances appearing when condition is.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Awareness is not free of thoughts. To Advaitins, it is. To Buddhist practitioner, thought is awareness. One thought arises, next one. Like what Ajahn Amaro said, there is no worry about no thought, no conceptuality. All will be experienced in their most vivid forms. I got to go now.

AEN: I see. Okay, good night.

Thusness: Good night. 1-2 are non-dual experience. 3 is dropping. 5-6 is non-dual insight.

AEN: By the way, I don't really understand. Is John Wheeler's realisation about impersonality, or is it about no-self? And what's the difference?

Thusness: John Wheeler realized certain aspect of no-self. Not anatta, but close to phase 4. The sense of dualism is still there, because he will not be able to integrate the transient. He can, however, realize he is lived by a greater life.

AEN: I see. Is that what you mean by feeling God?

Thusness: All manifestations are the doing of this One life.

AEN: I see. Eckhart Tolle said, "Many expressions that are in common usage, and sometimes the structure of language itself, reveal the fact that people don't know who they are. You say: 'He lost his life' or 'my life,' as if life were something that you can possess or lose. The truth is: you don't have a life, you are life. The One Life, the one consciousness that pervades the entire universe and takes temporary form to experience itself as a stone or blade of grass, as an animal, a person, a star or a galaxy. Can you sense deep within that you already know that? Can you sense that you already are That?'"

Thusness: This One Life is same to you as well as me. This is a very subtle extrapolation. But experientially it does appear so. It has a lot to do with the spontaneous arising and impersonality (deconstruction of personality).

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Therefore when one focuses and refines the 4 aspects I spoke about, without even arising the insight of non-dual, one can still be led to such an experience. This is stage 2. Get it?

AEN: Yeah, think so. So stage 2 is related to impersonality?

Thusness: Further to that, one will want to penetrate into 3.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Re-read phase one to 3.

AEN: Okay.

Thusness: Phase 4 is strictly non-dual. Though non-dual, still having inherent view. So a practitioner still does not see the truth of the relative. The absolute still seems special.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: That is One Mind.

AEN: "The 'vision' of truth appears new because it was not noticed before. Whatever we are and the world is, is already the fact. There is no attainment involved in being what you are. That is the constant space of life, awareness or being in which all appears. It includes silence and sound, activity and stillness, form and emptiness, knowledge and ignorance, and all other dualities and opposites. Your natural condition is not a state within the appearances but the spacious heart of reality which contains and embraces them all. It is like a bright mirror in which diverse reflections rise and set. The mirror remains as it is and bears no relation to the presence or absence of its reflections. The mirror cannot be limited by or identified with any of the reflections appearing in it, nor does it grasp or resist them. For their part, the reflections have no substance or independent nature apart from the mirror. In the same way, all that is, was or ever will be is contained in the timeless light of your true nature. The strange and wonderful thing is that this has always been so. If this is not noticed, it gets pointed out and recognized, and the true perspective is restored. It is as simple as that." - John Wheeler. This is like One Mind?

Thusness: In phase 4, a practitioner will be obsessed with this substratum in a non-dual context. You must understand phase 5-7 is refining the insight of the same experience of 4. You so clearly see that non-dual is implicit, as there never is any agent apart from the ongoing phenomenality. Then you realize the true meaning of anatta and emptiness, and move from dissociation to self-liberation. Seems like talking to different practitioners helps you understand the 7 phases, but don't make it as an absolute model.

21 FEBRUARY 2014

John Tan: It is bringing this I AM into everything. I AM the I in you, the I in the cat, the I in the bird. I AM the first person in everyone and everything. I.

John Tan: I am the phase. That is my second phase. That the I is ultimate and universal.