Conversation — 9 May 2009

AEN: Hi, are you there?

Thusness: Yes. Going to watch Star Trek later. :)

AEN: Sunyata Mu said:

"Basically from my birth to about somewhere in my thirties there was a belief that I was the thoughts. This belief that I was the thoughts led to a situation which was basically 'out of control'. I believed I was the thoughts, so basically I was trapped on a roller coaster ride with them. There was no place to sit back from them... I was a slave to them and a victim of them.

So, when the realization occurred that I was the witnessing of the thoughts (...what I would call 'awakening' ) then there was some space from them.

I'd discovered a deeper part of me which I could abide in and just watch the thoughts pass by. There was then a freedom from the thoughts. They could be grabbed or let go. The slavery to them had been broken. To get to this point it was very useful to see the thoughts as 'not me' and to see them for what they actually are... dead symbols.

This awakening then opened up the next step of the 'journey'. It went from 'the witness' (which is seen as a separate self which is witnessing).... to 'the witnessing', which is non-personal. 'The witnessing' is like the 'one witnessing' in a dream. All of the dream characters have the same witnessing flowing through them. They seem separate, but it's the same witnessing (awareness) flowing through them all.

So, now that the deepest part of 'me' had been realized I could now begin to reclaim the world of thought.

An analogy would be.... I am the sun. But I didn't realize that I was the sun. I thought that I was the suns' rays and was oblivious to the fact that there was a sun which was emanating those rays. I then realized that my deepest self (the bit that the rays depend on to exist) was the sun. So I 'awakened' to the fact that the sun was there, and that it was my deepest self. And now that I realize that I am the sun I can safely take back ownership of the rays. Sure I am the rays.... but now there is also the realization that I am the sun.

So, now, there is a realization that at one end there is pure non-personal witnessing. At the other end there is the world of thoughts. And now there is a freedom to move between the two. Before, there was just a stuckness in the thoughts.... that was the only possibility. Now there is a free movement between the two. ( And yes, they are not actually 2, they are like the sun and its rays.... which are actually one.)"

Thusness: Yes. But the deeper realization is that witness and the thought is flat. :) Both are dust; don't differentiate. This is the profound truth of emptiness.

AEN: What do you mean witness and thought is flat? By the way, what he said is nonduality, right?

Thusness: There is no hierarchy.

AEN: I see.

Thusness: Yes. When we first experienced eternal witness, there is this awakening to the real you. But we are still unable to separate from the subtle idea of 'you' from pristineness.

AEN: I see...

Thusness: Then non-dual comes. That's the observer and the observed. This is the beginning of non-duality. One must penetrate very deeply into non-dual.

AEN: I see... so what he described here is still witness or like non-dual?

Thusness: Then comes the realization that absolute and relative are really inseparable. Then till one day we are so clear about the layer of tendencies that affect our thinking mechanism. When we re-examine the experiences, insights of non-duality without the subtle influences due to the neutralization with the arising of prajna wisdom (dependent origination), we begin to understand how the dualistic and inherent view distort our understanding with much deeper clarity. Experience then move from non-dual to anatta and emptiness. Eventually the background, the transience are simply same level. The absolute that is so dear to us becomes flat. Emptiness flattens all.

Thusness: That is why I said it is the last mark, last trace that must be further purified by emptiness.

Thusness: Email me this conversation... My keyboard keys are spoiled... jump here and there. Then close this window... haha. When we talk about the natural state, if we have not reached this clarity of insight, we will not be able to be truly natural. Because there is a center. Not all are centers... That center is the grasping, the more special. How natural can that be?

Thusness: This last mark must be clearly seen.

AEN: By the way, I remember you said regarding the sun analogy: "Yes Sinweiy, The Buddha out of infinite compassion spoke the lucid luminosity, the unconditioned Obviousness, the pure. But the self-luminous awareness from beginningless time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be found. This is the Tatagatha Nature. :)"

Thusness: Conditions and luminosity = appearances. This is DO [dependent origination]. This is not relative and absolute. Don't mistake relative as conditions.

Thusness: Relative is the transience. The appearance. This is the subject-object view. Luminosity and conditions are DO [dependent origination]. In DO [dependent origination], there is only appearances. All are flat. Equally pure. That is why replace the inherent and dualistic view with DO [dependent origination]. That is the right view. To orientate and articulate with the right view. Then when experience comes, it will not be distorted. Insight will arise.

Thusness: When I talk about insight, I am talking about anatta and DO [dependent origination]. Get it?

Thusness: You will see Advaita and Vedanta sees the absolute. The non-dual experience is there but there is the hierarchy that the Absolute is high above. In Buddhism, even the Absolute is closely examined. Nothing substantial, as empty. :)

Thusness: Seeing its nature, one realized the truth of luminous yet empty. All is just like an illusion but not an illusion. Like a dream but not a dream. Merely magical display. This is stage six. Then is the realization that all these realizations are already so before beginning. :)

AEN: OK. By the way, John Astin just posted this in his blog, I posted in the forum also: "To remain or abide as awareness does not mean we get into some state called “awareness” and then find a way to remain in that state. To remain as awareness is to simply recognize that all states and experiences are the continuous flow of awareness."

Thusness: Yes... very good. This is attempting to use dualistic mode of expression to express. And there is subtle influences even when one is clear and is able to trace the differences. But due to the effects of the tendencies, we cannot have that clarity.

AEN: I see. You mean that expression is still dualistic?

Thusness: Not exactly. What I meant is it is very difficult to have the clarity. From John Astin's words, he spotted the difference but it is very difficult to have thorough clarity of DO [dependent origination] when using dualistic framework. Get it?

Thusness: I got to go.

AEN: OK... see you.

Thusness: goldisheavy already have insight into the 2fold emptiness.

AEN: He just posted something? Hmm. What do you mean by insight?

Thusness: I just read his posts. Quite good.

AEN: You mean he realized emptiness?

Thusness: I go now.

AEN: OK... see you. By the way, you mean he realized emptiness or he understand theoretically?

Conversation — 10 May 2009

AEN: So how should I reply Sunyata Mu? :P

Thusness: Who is he?

AEN: The person who wrote the witness one. This one: http://www.inthenow.tv/actual%20pages/awakeinthenow.html

Thusness: Everyone has their own experience. I need to read through first. Some have direct insight of emptiness. Some have direct insight of anatta. Some have Advaita sort of non-dual.

AEN: Oh yeah, the gold realized both?

Thusness: And there are varying degree.

AEN: goldisheavy*

Thusness: Nope... I only say he has insight into emptiness.

Thusness: But that does not mean he will have realization of awareness, or the intensity of no dog may differ. Like you experience witness however that is not the experience I want you to have. You do not have that certainty, that eureka sort of realization. So there are differing degree.

[Note by Soh: That realization of the Certainty of Being came for me through self-enquiry next year, in February 2010 - see My e-book/e-journal)

Thusness: Similarly non-dual there are varying degree. Some non-dual have no thoughts. Some have thoughts. Though from the perspective of emptiness, all is flat, the experience differs in terms of intensity and vividness. Realization however is different. It is a realization. Means you see. You suddenly understand. And knows very clearly.

AEN: Anyway, I emailed you the Sunyata Mu's email, about the sun's ray and sun.

Thusness: What did you write to him?

AEN: I haven't replied him.

Thusness: I meant what did you write to him to have him replied you that way?

AEN: I just pasted some quotes about witness and witnessed are non-dual.

Thusness: Show me your email to him first. Then re-send me his reply.

AEN: OK, hold on. Wah. But very long. :P I just forward you.

Thusness: OK. He has potential to go beyond stage 4.

AEN: By the way, he posts in now-for-you also but only a few posts. I saw his site from there. I see. I emailed you his reply. I mean, I emailed you my email to him. I also emailed you his reply, yesterday, with the title 'Fw: From Sunyata Mu ...'

AEN: So what he said is like stage 4?

Thusness: That is a guide for you, don't always think of stage. Some start with emptiness but have no experience of luminosity. Then luminosity will become a later phase. Does that mean that the most pristine experience of "I AM" now is the last stage? Don't get yourself confused.

Thusness: I told you to look into at it as phases of insight but your entire mind is looking at it as a stage.

Thusness: Some have no experience of luminosity at all and is able to understand the profound wisdom of emptiness. Yet have no direct experience of luminosity, or the degree of experience is simply just not there.

Thusness: Some have experienced luminosity but does not understand how he get himself 'lost'. No insight to the tendencies at all therefore cannot understand DO adequately. Does that mean that one that experience emptiness is higher than one that experience luminosity? I told you so many times it does not mean that. And I wrote in the article too. How come you fail to see despite me telling you umpteen times?

Thusness: Didn't receive yet.

AEN: Huh, don't have? Yesterday I sent you also never receive?

Thusness: What you should understand is what is lacking in the form of realization. There is no hierarchy to it. Just insights.

Thusness: Then you will be able to see all stages as flat. Get it?

Thusness: And simply talk about the progress of insights. But all insights are equally precious. And flat. No higher.

Thusness: Like dharma dan experience non-dual but not no-dog. Then no-dog is precious. Even after non-dual, that will bring out the luminosity aspect more.

Thusness: When in non-dual, one can still be full of thoughts. Therefore experience the thoroughness of being no-thoughts, fully luminous and present. Then it is not about non-dual, not about the no object-subject split, it is about the degree of luminosity for these non-dualist. But some monks that is trapped in luminosity and rest in samadhi, then it is about non-dual. For non-dualists, depending on the level of understanding, you can move forward or backward, there is no-hierarchy.

Thusness: Send me his reply too... I didn't have it in this computer.

AEN: Yeah, I sent you both but you didn't receive? I think I save into document. Initiated a file transfer. You there?

Thusness: thevoice talking to me.

AEN: Oh, I see...

Thusness: I will tell you how to reply him... maybe write something about natural state... later this evening when I solve my email problem for my e75. Think have to go change the phone.

AEN: I see... OK.

Thusness: This astraldynamics is generating a lot of traffic... haha.

AEN: Yeah, haha. Didn't know his website so popular.

Thusness: His books sold more than 50,000 copies... so his readers should be a lot.

Thusness: Sunyata Mu is from Australia?

AEN: Yeah. I think Sydney. Why?

Thusness: I thought this was him: Blaxland, New South Wales, Australia, 0 returning visits. Haha.

AEN: I think his house in Blaxland then his workplace in Sydney or something. Yeah. Because at first he came in from Sydney...

Thusness: Now many visitors return.

AEN: I see, yeah.

AEN: Sunyata Mu is saying there is a universal consciousness in everybody, I think. And that each individual and experience is 'emanating' from the one source. Then his idea of 'no separate self' is the universal brahman.

Conversation — 12 May 2009

AEN: Hi.

Thusness: Hi. :)

AEN: You saw my messages just now? I asked "how should I reply Sunyata Mu :P"

Thusness: My next post is related to Sunyata Mu however I do not have the time to write yet. :) It is about the difference between phase 4 and 5.

AEN: I see. You saw his emails, right?

Thusness: Yeah, about the sun and the ray.

AEN: Yeah. I think he's talking about universal consciousness. He thought no separate self means everyone has a universal brahman or something, if I'm not wrong.

(Note by Soh: For readers who tend to extrapolate a “Universal Mind,” the following pieces explicitly refute that view and explain why it is a subtle reification that deviates from Buddhadharma:

“The Tendency to Extrapolate a Universal Consciousness” (Awakening to Reality): https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/12/the-tendency-to-extrapolate-universal.html 

“No Universal Mind” (Awakening to Reality; with a helpful quote from Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal): https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2021/08/no-universal-mind.html .

“No Universal Mind, Part 3” (Awakening to Reality): https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/03/no-universal-mind-part-3.html)

Thusness: Partly yes.

AEN: I see.