"The key towards pure knowingness is to bring the taste of presence into the 6 entries and exits. So that what is seen, heard, touched, tasted are pervaded by a deep sense of crystal, radiance and transparency. This requires seeing through the center." - Thusness

John Tan: Yes. That (More real than real) is also an insight that turns the mind internal. Non-arising means appearances without essence similar to a reflection, like a rainbow. That (More real than real) comes with I AMness. The different between anatta and substantiality is beside appearance, there is innate feeling of some essence separate from the appearances of colors, sensations, sound, smell, taste and thoughts. Therefore one cannot be fully open and release."

- Thusness/John Tan, 2019

John Tan wrote in 2012/2013:

In ignorance, there is hearer hearing sound.

In anatta, in hearing, only sound.
Yet sound has no true inherent nature (empty),
It is an activity and is that very activity called “hearing”.
Both “hearing and sound” are pointing to the same activity.
Only when seen to have true existence on either side does confusion arise.

In Madhyamaka Emptiness, reification is seen through.
Yet the experiential state of freedom from reification is not expounded.
However one can have a taste of that freedom from arising insight of anatta since anatta is precisely the freedom from reification of Self/self (First fold Emptiness).
In anatta, seeing is simply the full scenery, in hearing only sound…
thus, always only lights, shape, colors, sounds, scents… in clean purity.
Emptying the object further (second fold) is merely dissolving subtle bond of “externality” that creates the appearance of true existence of objects outside. When “externality” is deconstructed, it is effectively a double confirmation of anatta…
…innerly coreless and outwardly empty, all appearances are still simply sound, lights, colors and rays
In thorough deconstruction, as there is no layer that reifies, there is no conceptuality. Therefore no complication, no confusion, no stains, no boundaries, no center, no sense of dual..
no sense of activity…just self arising.
All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity.
Whatever appears is
neither here nor now,
Neither in nor out,
Neither arises nor ceases,
In the same space…
non-local, timeless and dimensionless
Simply present…

To Jax:
The place where there is no earth, fire, wind, space, water…
is the place where the earth, fire, wind, space and water kills “You” and fully shines as its own radiance, a complete taste of itself and fully itself.

Lastly, it is interesting to get know something about Dzogchen however the jargons and tenets are far beyond me.
Just wrote due to a sudden spurt of interest, nothing intense.
Thanks for all the sharing and exchanges.

Excerpt from http://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-031-002.html

The Transcendent Perfection of Wisdom in Ten Thousand Lines


Chapter 13

Like Space

13.1The Blessed One addressed Senior Su­bhūti as follows: “Su­bhūti, you asked where this vehicle will come to rest. In this regard, Su­bhūti, [F.134.b] the vehicle will not come to rest anywhere. If you ask why, it is because resting is non-apprehensible, and so all things do not come to rest. On the other hand, the vehicle will come to rest by way of its non-resting. Su­bhūti, just as the expanse of reality neither comes to rest, nor does it not come to rest, similarly, Su­bhūti, the vehicle does not come to rest, nor does it not come to rest. The same refrain should be extensively applied here, just as has been indicated in the context of the previous chapter.
13.2Su­bhūti, just as non-arising neither comes to rest, nor does it not come to rest, similarly, this vehicle does not come to rest, nor does it not come to rest; in the same vein, just as non-cessation, non-signlessness, non-affliction, non-purification and non-conditioning neither come to rest, nor do they not come to rest, similarly, Su­bhūti, this vehicle does not come to rest, nor does it not come to rest. If you ask why, Su­bhūti, it is because the essential nature of the expanse of reality neither comes to rest, nor does it not come to rest. If you ask why, Su­bhūti, it is because the essential nature of the expanse of reality is empty of the essential nature of the expanse of reality. In the same vein, the essential nature of those other unconditioned phenomena, up to and including non-conditioning, is empty of non-conditioning, [and so forth]. Su­bhūti, for these reasons this [Great] Vehicle will not come to rest anywhere, but nor will it not do so. This is owing to its non-resting.
13.3“Also, Su­bhūti, you asked who will attain emancipation by means of this vehicle. In this regard, Su­bhūti, no one will attain emancipation by means of this vehicle. If you ask why, Su­bhūti, it is because all those things associated with this vehicle, and with those who would attain emancipation, and that in which emancipation is attained, are non-existent and they are non-apprehensible. [F.135.a] Since all things are accordingly non-existent and non-apprehensible, who could attain emancipation by means of anything? In what could emancipation possibly be attained? If you ask why, Su­bhūti, it is because the self and other [posited subjects], up to and including the knower and the viewer, are non-apprehensible. This being the case, the ‘self’ is never apprehensible. Similarly, [other posited subjects], from sentient beings and living creatures to knowers and viewers, are all non-apprehensible.


Su­bhūti then said to the Blessed One, “Venerable Lord! This great vehicle, which is called the Great Vehicle, overpowers and attains emancipation from the world with its gods, humans, and antigods. Venerable Lord! As I understand the words spoken by the Blessed One, this Great Vehicle is equal to space. Just as in space, coming, going, and abiding are not discernible, so in this Great Vehicle, also, coming, going, and abiding are not discernible. Just as in space, the limit of the past is non-apprehensible, and the limit of the future and the intervening [present] are non-apprehensible, so in this Great Vehicle, also, the limit of the past is non-apprehensible, and the limit of the future and the intervening [present] are non-apprehensible. It is because it genuinely transcends the three times266 that this vehicle is called the Great Vehicle.”

13.14The Blessed One then replied to Senior Su­bhūti, “That is so, Su­bhūti! It is just as you have said! This vehicle is equal to space. That is why it overpowers and attains emancipation from the world with its gods, humans, and antigods. Su­bhūti, this vehicle of the bodhisattvas comprises the six transcendent perfections. [F.137.a] If you ask what these six are, they are the transcendent perfection of generosity, the transcendent perfection of ethical discipline, the transcendent perfection of tolerance, the transcendent perfection of perseverance, the transcendent perfection of meditative concentration, and the transcendent perfection of wisdom. Su­bhūti, these designate the Great Vehicle of great bodhisattva beings.

Christian, I see all phenomena like rainbow, they appear but are empty.  Neither exist nor not exist, they are free from extremes.

As for the word “exist”, I reserve it for “svabhāva”.  To exist is to possess essence or substance.  Essence means phenomenon possessing characteristic or not brought about by causal process or capable of standing by itself.  Substance means irreducible constituents of reality can be found.


Yes Christian, I understand. Whether it is expressed as “exist conventionally but ultimately empty” or “appear but r empty” is simply a matter of flavour.

What is important is the taste of seeing conventional things as empty till one’s entire body-mind is pervaded with emptiness - like space, free and unobstructed.
Malcolm wrote:


The Uttaratantra states:
Unconditioned, effortless,
not realized through other conditions,
endowed with wisdom, compassion and power,
buddhahood is endowed with two benefits.
But what does this really all mean?

When we examine Asanga's comments on this, he states:
When these are summarized, buddhahood is described with eight qualties. If it is asked what those eight qualities are, they are unconditioned, effortless, not realized through other conditions, wisdom, compassion, power, the abundance of one's own benefit and the abundance of others' benefit. [Buddhahood] is unconditioned because it is the nature of lacking a beginning, middle and end. It is called "effortless" because peace is endowed with the dharmakāya. It is not realized through other conditions because each person must realize it for themselves. It is wisdom because those three things are realized. [Buddhahood] is compassionate because [the Buddha] shows the path. It is powerful because it is free from suffering and affliction. The former three [unconditioned, effortless and not realized through other conditions] are for one's own benefit; the latter three [wisdom, compassion and power] are for others' benefit.

In that regard, the conditioned is fully understood as arising somewhere, and also understood as abiding and perishing. Because those do not exist [arising, abiding and perishing], buddhahood itself is unconditioned without a beginning, middle and an end. This is seen as a differentiation made through the dharmakāya. Because all proliferation and concepts are pacified, [buddhahood] is effortless [lhun gyis grub]. Buddhahood is not realized through other conditions because it is realized through wisdom oneself produced. Here, udayo [to produce] is not the arising of a desire for realization. As such, the tathāgata is unconditioned due to the truth, out of the characteristics of non-engagement, all the activities of the buddha effortlessly engaged in without impediment and without interruption for as long as samsara exists
So let us parse this out a little bit.

Asanga states in his commentary on the Uttaratantra:
...the conditioned is understood as arising somewhere, and also understood as abiding and perishing. Because those do not exist [arising, abiding and perishing], buddhahood itself is unconditioned without a beginning, middle and an end.
Buddhahood is unconditioned because the trio of arising, abiding and perishing are false. Not because in contrast to things that arise, abide and perish, buddhahood does not arise, abide and perish.

Buddhahood however has a cause, as he writes:
Buddhahood is not realized through other conditions because it is realized through wisdom oneself produced.
Buddhahood is also effortless, because, as he writes:
...all proliferation and concepts are pacified, [buddhahood] is effortless [lhun gyis grub]...As such, the tathāgata is unconditioned due to the truth; and from the characteristics of non-engagement, all the activities of the buddha are engaged in effortlessly [lhun grub], without impediment and without interruption for as long as samsara exists
As for tathāgatagarbha always existing in the continuums of sentient beings; if you think somehow tathāgatagarba is something other than or different than a sentient beings mind, there there is a fallacy of the tathāgatagarbha being something like an atman. But there is no atman in the tathāgatagarbha theory, not really. the supreme self, (paramātma) is explained very clearly in the Uttaratantra:
The supreme self is the pacification of the proliferations of self and and nonself.
But what does this mean? Asanga adds:
The perfection of self (ātmapāramitā) is known through two reasons: due to being free from proliferation of a self because of being free from the extreme of the non-buddhists and due to being free from the proliferation of nonself because of giving up the extreme of the śrāvakas.
He explains further:
From cultivating prajñāpāramita in order to turn away from seeing the five addictive aggregates as self, the non-existent self in which the others, the nonbuddhists, delight, one attains the result, the perfection of self. In this way all the others, the nonbuddhists, accept natureless things such as matter and so on as a self due to their being deceived by a characteristic of a self according to how those things are being apprehended, but that self never existed.

The Tathāgata, on the other hand, has attained the supreme perfection of the selflessness of all phenomena through the wisdom that is in accord with just how things truly are, and though there is no self according to how he sees things, he asserts a self all the time because he is never deceived by the characteristic of a self that does not exist. Making the selfless into a self is like saying "abiding through the mode of nonabiding.
There are some people who, ignoring the Nirvana Sutra's admonition to rely on the meaning rather than on the words, fall headlong into eternalism, unable to parse the Buddha's profound meaning through addiction to naive literalism.

Tathagatagarbha is just a potential to become a buddha. When we say it is has infinite qualities, this is nothing more nor less than when the Vajrapañjara praises the so called "jewel-like mind":
The jewel-like mind is tainted with
evil conceptual imputations;
but when the mind is purified it becomes pure.
Just as space cannot be destroyed,
just as is space, so too is the mind.
By activating the jewel-like mind
and meditating on the mind itself, there is the stage of buddhahood,
and in this life there will be sublime buddhahood.
There is no buddha nor a person
outside of the jewel-like mind,
the abode of consciousness is ultimate,
outside of which there isn't the slightest thing.
All buddhahood is through the mind...
Matter, sensation, perception
formations and consciousness
these all arise from the mind,
these [five] munis are not anything else.
Like a great wishfulfilling gem,
granting the results of desires and goals,
the pure original nature of the true state of the mind
bestows the result, Buddha's awakening
There is no other basis apart from this natural purity of the mind that is inseparable clarity and emptiness. We can call it whatever we want, but still this fact remains. The Lankāvatara rightly observes that tathāgatagarbha is just a name for emptiness and the ālayavijñāna for those afraid of emptiness. Jayānanda writes that ālayavijñāna is the mind that comprehends the basis, i.e. emptiness. How else can the mind be purified of evil conceptual imputations other than by realizing emptiness? Emptiness free from all extremes is the pure original nature of the true state of the mind, so why bother confusing oneself with all kinds of rhetoric? The mind itself has two aspects, emptiness and clarity, ka dag and lhun grub, and these are inseparable. This inseparable clarity and emptiness is call the ālaya in gsar ma and the basis in Nyingma. This also known as tathagatagarbha when it encased in afflictions, the dharmadhātu from its ultimate side, the ālayavijñāna from its relative side and so on. It really is not that complicated.



Are you making the assertion that use of the term “unconditioned” renders all traditions that use the term compatible? The sugatagarbha doctrine has a few variations, for example, the Lanka equates it with the all-basis consciousness. As I understand the term, tathagatagarbha refers to the union of the mind”s clarity and emptiness. That union is unconditioned, but the mind itself is conditioned. Just this is the “god” ChNN is referring to, and nothing else, since the basis is just this.
'“Supernatural” is a misnomer, and moreover is a materialist straw man fallacy. Not to mention a semi-pejorative term wielded by materialists that is rooted in the concept of “superstition.” In actuality, there is no such thing as the supernatural in Buddhist teachings, only subtle aspects of dependent origination [pratītyasamutpāda] that are usually obscured or misunderstood.' - Kyle Dixon [krodha], 2022


"My advice is knowing our nature does not require us to "rojak" [Soh: turn quantum physics and spirituality into an eclectic mix] them at all and the benefits of practice is something very tangible. It can be realized, known and experienced including the supramadane abilities of buddha and bodhisattvas, the sambhogakaya body and buddhafields to those that r serious in practice.  They maybe myth to some but not myth to me, at least it can be verified by first person experiences (imo) regardless how science think and that are already enough for me to cope." - John Tan, 2022

 Jared K Jones:

I would say that after thorough investigation, there are reasons in terms of philosophy, physics, and direct observation to think that  these sorts of phenomena are not mere descriptive fancy, nor so-called “skillful” lies to gain followers.

For practical examples, look at monks who do Tummo. They generate heat in a part of the body where there is no physical basis for such heat. Then they manipulate that heat at will and move it up the spinal column.

There was also a case of a very old Hindu yogi who attained Samadhi and stopped eating or drinking. He was studied by doctors in a continuous isolation chamber for 10 days, who concluded that - not only was he not dying of starvation or dehydration - he was in great health.

Further, we now have - thanks to the Dalai Lama - brain scans of yogis who have held themselves in the post-death state for several weeks. They didn’t decompose and had brain activity after death for extended periods of time, indicating consciousness when the body is medically dead.

The marathon monks of Mt. Hiei who have committed to the 7 year cycle only eat one small meal a day, a starvation died of 900-1,200 calories, while hiking between 6-16 hours a day. They should be dead, medically speaking.

We also have accounts from modern times like those found in “Yogis of Tibet” where high lamas exhibit extraordinary miracles, like leaving footprints in solid rock.

Milarepa famously did this same demonstration many times for students, to show that the external world is merely a manifestation of mind. When the mind is fully tamed and awakened, the external world is entirely fluid. His handprint - from one of his meditation caves - is attached.

Great masters often also generate relics and signs in the ashes of their funeral pyres: pearls, handprints, pieces of jade, and so on. Having known people through the grape vine who have been involved in the collection of such relics, it is done with the utmost integrity.

When you read Vimalakirti, this is not allegorical or simply a creative narrative, in my view. In relativity, the observer is at the center. Events are different physically for different observers: different numbers of particles, different speeds in time, different sizes, different sequences of events, and so on.

For one observer, x happens first, then y. For another, y first, then x. For another, xy happens at the same time. And in one perspective, neither happens. All four can occur simultaneously with regards to the same so-called “external” thing. This is just Western physics!

So, when Vimalakirti causes the room to expand or mountain chairs to appear from other realms, there is no reason that his should effect the perception of the surrounding people living in the city around him. It’s simply the activity which is possible for a mind which has realized the objects of experience are inseparable from a creative-knowing factor.

Honestly, it took me a long time looking at emptiness, the conventional nature of mind, and modern physics - as well as examples like the above - to say that these things are most likely true. I’m about 80% convinced.


Andersine Thank you! It saddens me to see Buddhists rejecting these ideas based upon our current scientific-materialist mythology.

Stanford professors are literally saying, “Is there a universe when we aren’t looking?”

And saying “Information is what the universe is made of, and information is merely mental. So, the universe is fundamentally mental.”

And we have Einstein saying (paraphrased), “The physical properties of the events depend on the observer, not only the event itself. The event can happen physically in two different ways simultaneously, depending upon two different reference frames.”

This is our own culture telling us it’s non-dual! It’s empty of self-character. The physical matter is empty and only arises with the observer. Time is empty and only occurs from a reference frame.

There is no “past event” which determines what happens now! It’s physically a different universe for all observers. Western physicists at major universities are (quite literally) saying these things.
The purpose of practicing dharma is for awakening and liberation, not siddhis. See Chinese video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaHEmOz4b-M

Session Start: Tuesday, April 17, 2007

(11:14 PM) AEN:    btw wat u think about the supernatural topic (someone trained in shamatha asking for advice on development of siddhis/powers)
(11:14 PM) AEN:    lol
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    i wish i can discuss with him but he is not the person for me to discuss. :)
(11:16 PM) AEN:    huh why
(11:16 PM) Thusness:    anyway unless i am an irresponsible person, i will not discuss such thing in public forum.
(11:17 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:17 PM) AEN:    why is he not for u to discuss
(11:17 PM) Thusness:    though i would very much like to.
(11:17 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:18 PM) Thusness:    infact i have been looking for someone that have perfected non-duality to writing something about non locality, i have told u b4.
(11:18 PM) AEN:    oic
(11:18 PM) AEN:    so wat r u saying.. u wan to discuss supernatural powers and non locality with someone?
(11:18 PM) AEN:    as in someone non dual
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    someone that has deep experience in non duality. :)
(11:19 PM) AEN:    icic.. so tats why u don wan to discuss with the forum guy? cos he's not non dual yet?
(11:19 PM) Thusness:    i do not wish to tok to ppl in samatha meditation.
(11:19 PM) AEN:    why
(11:20 PM) Thusness:    and only when i know the person is already enlightened. :)
(11:20 PM) Thusness:    otherwise there is no point.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    and i do not want ppl to misinterpret the nature of these experiences.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    i also do not like ppl to bullshit about these experiences.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    and also do not like ppl to make fun of these experiences.
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    lol
(11:21 PM) AEN:    what u mean by bullshit and make fun
(11:21 PM) Thusness:    i might leave something b4 my i die.
(11:21 PM) AEN:    leave what?
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    my experiences and how to get access to it after non-duality.
(11:22 PM) AEN:    oic wat sort of experiences?
(11:22 PM) Thusness:    u r not enlightened yet. :P
(11:22 PM) AEN:    about supernatural powers? lol
(11:23 PM) Thusness:    yeah. :)
(11:23 PM) Thusness:    ur mind is not stable yet.
(11:23 PM) AEN:    oic btw wats the uses of supernatural powers.. how can supernatural power help one and others
(11:24 PM) AEN:    my mind not stable means?
(11:25 PM) Thusness:    with ur current state of mind, u will not be able to correctly absorb in whatever aspect.
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    whatever that is necessary are already stated in sutras
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    there is really no point bringing it out to discuss.
(11:26 PM) Thusness:    what one experiences for me is to break the perceptual bond that prevent us from knowing some subtle aspects of our mind.
(11:27 PM) Thusness:    that is too difficult to break by merely just accepting things.
(11:28 PM) Thusness:    the way to access to paranormal experiences differs.
(11:28 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:28 PM) Thusness:    however for one that has stabilize non dual path, it is the natural progression to experience something non-local
(11:28 PM) Thusness:    some non-local aspect of our nature.
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    to understand our nature.
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    what good is there really to discuss the non local aspect of it besides that?
(11:29 PM) Thusness:    i do not like to call it supernatural power.
(11:29 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    u can c that i seldom call it so.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    i call it non local aspects of our nature.
(11:30 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    as it is part of our nature.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    in line with emptiness.
(11:30 PM) Thusness:    i do not like to deviate from the profound teachings of emptiness.
(11:30 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    of our nature. :)
(11:31 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    that is why i also do not wish to discuss with anyone that is on concentration.
(11:31 PM) Thusness:    coz it is not about wisdom and our nature.
(11:32 PM) AEN:    btw theres difference rite between someone who gain those powers from concentration, and those who become enlightened and those so called powers actually arise from prajna?
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    if u want to know, know what is our nature and practice.
(11:32 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:32 PM) Thusness:    i do not know, i have not discussed with them. :)

(11:36 PM) Thusness:    first is the realisation.
(11:36 PM) AEN:    what u mean
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    u must realise what is meant by non duality.
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    what is no-self
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    realisation.
(11:37 PM) AEN:    icic
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    like longchen
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    experience it.
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    then ur dualistic thought will continue to confuse u.
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    it is not easy to overcome
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    until it has sunk so deep into ur consciousness
(11:37 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    that one day ur realisation and action become one...
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    somehow u 'see' the pathless path towards non dual at every moment.
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    but due to attachments, the experience of non duality through wisdom will not be thorough.
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    so u must practice the other 5 paramitas
(11:39 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    then non dual in action can become one....to clear other forms of attachments and to further experience our boundless nature.
(11:40 PM) Thusness:    but some of these bonds can be cleared if one is able to have non local experiences.
(11:40 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    certain attachments will subside due to these experiences.
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    but the practice of the other 5 parimatas are more thorough.
(11:41 PM) Thusness:    non local aspects of our nature if without sufficient wisdom will have side effects.
(11:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:42 PM) AEN:    what side effects
(11:42 PM) AEN:    5 paramitas how does it help
(11:42 PM) AEN:    in non attachment?
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    to me side effects is always creating perceptual bond on other aspects.
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    u eliminate one and u add 3.
(11:42 PM) Thusness:    :)
(11:42 PM) AEN:    oic...
(11:43 PM) Thusness:    if non local aspects is experienced and u unknowingly add to our ego other form of bonds, then it is quite difficult to break.
(11:44 PM) Thusness:    coz it was caused by non local experiences.
(11:44 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:44 PM) AEN:    u mean like being identified/attached to having supernatural powers?
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    one of them.
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    or u may visit other realms and get attached?
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    or u may contact spirits and be attached and dwell with them...
(11:45 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:45 PM) Thusness:    u do not know... when u dwell...
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    u may sink into deeper illusion into the realm that u have created without knowing
(11:46 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:46 PM) Thusness:    it is not just a matter of ego. :)
(11:47 PM) AEN:    yea teacher chen said
(11:47 PM) Thusness:    it is our wisdom and clarity have not penetrated to the depth of seeing through these states.

(7:16 PM) AEN:    eckhart tolle's depth of experience is there?
(7:16 PM) John:    I hope the next book has what i want. :)
(7:16 PM) AEN:    oic wat u want
(7:17 PM) John:    eckhart tolle's yes.  But i think not to Toni's level.  That is my opinion.  Toni's is almost mirror bright.  But I just cannot understand certain thing.
(7:18 PM) AEN:    oic..
(7:18 PM) AEN:    cannot understand wat
(7:18 PM) John:    about emptiness, there is something not there.
(7:18 PM) John:    initially i thought it should be a natural progression.
(7:20 PM) AEN:    as in?
(7:22 PM) AEN:    u there?
(7:23 PM) John:    toking to my dad and wife. :P
(7:23 PM) AEN:    oic
(7:35 PM) John:    you taken ur dinner?
(7:42 PM) AEN:    yea
(7:43 PM) John:    i hope to grab the new book when it arrives in Singapore.
(7:43 PM) AEN:    oic ya me too
(7:56 PM) AEN:    there?
(8:20 PM)    You have just sent a Nudge!
(8:26 PM) John:    just finished eating. :)
(8:27 PM) AEN:    oic okie
(8:27 PM) AEN:    so wat u mean about the emptiness
(8:29 PM) John:    many ppl can only write until the level what toni wrote.... I am looking for some non locality experiences.
(8:31 PM) AEN:    back
(8:32 PM) AEN:    wat do u mean by non locality experiences
(8:32 PM) AEN:    and why is it that many ppl can only write until wat toni wrote?
(8:35 PM) John:    zen masters have that level of clarity.  As for lay, seldom do i see ppl having that clarity.  It is therefore difficult for people to write about anything after he/she  
reaches that level of clarity.  Unfortunately, real zen masters doesn't speak much. :)
(8:35 PM) John:    when u listen, the sound is out there....how far can we hear?
(8:36 PM) AEN:    as in physical distant?
(8:36 PM) John:    yes
(8:37 PM) AEN:    dunnu leh need measurement.. haha.. on the relative level
(8:37 PM) John:    lol
(8:37 PM) John:    wait for the books to be out lah...
(8:37 PM) AEN:    huh??
(8:39 PM) AEN:    so u mean toni packer didnt spoke of non locality
(8:39 PM) John:    i do not know. Dunno she experience or not. :P
(8:39 PM) AEN:    http://www.heartspace.org/misc/IndraNet.html
(8:39 PM) AEN:    

4. Non-locality

Indra's Net shoots holes in the assumption or imputation of a solid and fixed universe 'out there'. The capacity of one jewel to reflect the light of another jewel from the other edge of  
infinity is something that is difficult for the linear mind, rational mind to comprehend. The fact that all nodes are simply reflections indicates that there is no particular single source  
point from where it all arises.
(8:39 PM) AEN:    so have u read any books that spoke about non locality
(8:40 PM) John:    this is interesting...
(8:40 PM) AEN:    avatamasaka sutra.
(8:40 PM) AEN:    and indra's net
(8:41 PM) AEN:    http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=129929
(8:44 PM) John:    have u watched superman?
(8:44 PM) AEN:    yea
(8:45 PM) John:    there is a part where he raise above the earth atmosphere and listen....he hears all...
(8:45 PM) John:    i like that part.
(8:45 PM) John:    :)
(8:45 PM) AEN:    oic..
(8:45 PM) AEN:    how come
(8:45 PM) John:    just like lah...
(8:45 PM) AEN:    oic
(8:45 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:46 PM) AEN:    like guan yin :P
(8:46 PM) John:    yes. :)
(8:46 PM) AEN:    my shi fu said something like... which i didnt quite understand... when u practise until certain level, in another universe, when a flower blossom u will know
(8:46 PM) AEN:    cant remember isit exactly it
(8:46 PM) AEN:    i tink not referring to supernatural powers
(8:47 PM) John:    ur shi fu is who?
(8:47 PM) AEN:    ven shen kai
(8:47 PM) John:    sheng kai?
(8:47 PM) John:    okie.
(8:47 PM) AEN:    teacher chen is his dharma successor in charge of transmitting some important dharmas
(8:48 PM) John:    ic...then li zhu teacher?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    yup
(8:48 PM) AEN:    oh
(8:48 PM) AEN:    local teacher
(8:48 PM) John:    so when u say shi fu, u r normally referring to ven sheng kai?
(8:48 PM) AEN:    yea
(8:48 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(8:48 PM) John:    ic. :)
(8:48 PM) AEN:    truthz maybe call 'shi gong'
(8:48 PM) AEN:    cos different side
(8:49 PM) AEN:    bcos li zhu lao shi is not chu jia
(8:49 PM) John:    ic
(9:02 PM) AEN:    "guan yin's practise is 'er gen yuan tong', whatever world has sentient beings calling for him, he will hear and save them. therefore if we are to attain buddhahood in this  
world, even if there is a flower blossoming in another universe, we will know immediately, then we will attain budhahood'
(9:02 PM) AEN:    i tink he mention about flower blossoming in another universe somewhere else too
(9:03 PM) AEN:    in the 'kai shi lu' series
(9:03 PM) John:    ic.  You are very resourceful. :)
(9:04 PM) AEN:    haha cos i just listen to this again recently
(9:04 PM) AEN:    so i remember
(9:04 PM) John:    ic
(9:08 PM) AEN:    guan yin can listen cos he can access 'the ocean of self-nature'
(9:08 PM) AEN:    is it some kind of supernatural power?
(9:09 PM) John:    this might be possible through deep clarity....it relates to clearing of fetters.
(9:09 PM) AEN:    oic
(9:09 PM) John:    but like i said, not for u to delve into it now. :P
(9:09 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(9:09 PM) AEN:    ok

Session Start: Thursday, July 06, 2006

     (E-mail Address Not Verified)

(9:44 PM) AEN:    still there?
(9:44 PM) AEN:    so how is nonlocality experienced as
(9:57 PM)    You have just sent a Nudge!
(11:19 PM) John:    might be like superman. :)
(11:22 PM) AEN:    har?
(11:22 PM) AEN:    hahaha
(11:22 PM) AEN:    as in really can hear very far? lol
(11:23 PM) John:    what is emptiness?
(11:24 PM) AEN:    empty of inherent existence (3 dharma seals), dependant arising?
(11:25 PM) John:    how does consciousness arise?
(11:25 PM) AEN:    conditioned arising
(11:25 PM) AEN:     /dependant arising
(11:25 PM) John:    and how does condition arise?
(11:25 PM) AEN:    hmm like net of indra metaphor?
(11:26 PM) John:    dunno...just arise. :P
John Tan commentary on Lankavatara Sutra, 2007:

When we look at Buddhism, Buddhism is very consistent. Why do I say that Buddhism is very consistent? Not because I like Buddhism. You see, a person saying that I have experienced Presence, and I AM the Eternal Witness, I AM God, I AM all powerful and I AM the First Cause, and yet, they see a dualistic world. This is in total conflict; this has totally no logic at all. Because, you see, in Buddhism when we talk about Non-Duality, we are saying something like the Dependent Origination. Because of This, That Is. This arises, That arises. This ceases, That ceases. We look at the entire formation, there is no
Who? Where is the Who? When we ask Where?, there is no Where?. When we ask When?, there is no When? It can be 10 million miles away. It can be in another planet. The teaching is consistent. It does not require a Who, a Where, a When. Condition arises, it is there. It is not stored in any place, or anywhere. This is the teaching. The entire teaching is consistent when it comes to the practise. They didnt say Concentration can lead to Insight. They tell you, Vipashyana Meditation can lead to Insight of what Reality is all about. It does not teach that there is a Self. The Buddha taught the three dharma seals: there is No-Self. So the teaching is consistent in terms of philosophy, in terms of meditation practice, and in terms of the truths that is being preached.

And also in terms of spiritual powers. When I say something like Clairvoyance... I can see, not bounded by distance. I can hear, not bounded by distance. How come? Why? If we were to take other religions, they can
t explain. But if you were to take Buddhism, Buddha had never told you, has never taught, something of an Ego, something of a Where, something of a When. It is not bounded by Time and Space at all in the entire philosophy. Never has he taught anything like that. And therefore, when we talk about spiritual powers, it is consistent. It is knowing without the need for a Space and Time, not bounded by Space and Time, because the entire teaching is so. And what is being said about this? It is the Nature. This is your nature. Reality is like that, it is so. Therefore, when we understand the teachings, we understand that yes, it is not right to be attached, therefore we cannot say we want to seek spiritual powers, like Nub. But we have to understand, this is our Nature, this is our Reality. Because the teaching has never contradicted itself. If you want to know about your reality, you have to practise. That is the teaching. And the practise has always been telling you to observe these 3 universal characteristics. So when we see the link between the practise, the philosophy, even something spiritual and something that is not scientific. This is important.
 (Post last updated: 15th June 2008)


The non-solidity of existence

This article describes a spiritual insight. It may be quite hard to understand.
The things that we experience are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight registers vision, the ears register sound, the body registers sensations. These perception, sensations and experiences are not happening in some places. They are the experience of the arising of certain conditions. There is no solidity and physicality in the actual experience.

What we experienced is not universal and common to all. Here's an example to illustrate that: We know that as human beings, we see in term of colours. Some animals are however colour-blind, thus they see differently from us. But none of us, is really seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently. So who is seeing the real image of an object? None.
Likewise, the various planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In certain types of meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states and are thus non-localised. In these meditations, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.
All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.
What we think of as places are really just consciousness and there is no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. The touch sense gives an impression of feeling something that is physical and three-dimensional. But there is really no solid self-existing object there. Instead, it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of physical solidity and form.
OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises.
For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading.

These articles are parts of a series of spiritual realisation articles .


Thusness/Passerby's comment on a related/largely similar post by Longchen in the forum:

Originally posted by longchen:
Hi Friend,
Just my understanding only. For discussion sake. Also, I find this topic very interesting.
What appears to us are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight sees some thing, the ears hear something, etc ,etc. There are not happening in some place. They are the arising of certain conditions.
To illustrate that what we experience is not standardised, we know that human beings see in term of colour range. Some animals are colour-blind. so they see differently. But none of us, is seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently.
Likewise, the 31 planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In the jhana meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states. In the jhanas, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence.
All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places.
What we think of as places are really just consciousness. .. no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. It gives an impression of feeling something 3D with textures and so on so forth. But there is no solid self-existing object there... it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of solidity.

Hi Longchen,
I can see the synchronization of emptiness view into your non-dual experiences --. Integrating view, practice and experience. This is the essence of our emptiness nature and right understanding of non-dual experience in Buddhism that is different from Advaita Vedanta teaching. This is also the understanding of why Everything is the One Reality incorporating causes, conditions and luminosity of our Empty nature as One and inseparable. Everything as the One Reality should never be understood from a dualistic/inherent standpoint.
This also explains the nature of 'supernatural power' like clairvoyance and seeing things far away, etc.
Indeed! You can see the how the view, practice and experience leading to the understanding of non-locality in terms of views, practices and experience.

Stage 6. The nature of Presence is Empty
Not only is there no ‘who’ in pristine awareness, there is no ‘where’ and ‘when’. This is its nature.
When there is this, that is.
With the arising of this, that arises.
When this is not, neither is that.
With the cessation of this, that ceases.

-- the principle of conditionality
The self-luminous awareness from beginning-less time has never been separated and cannot be separated from its conditions. They are not two -- This is, That is. Along with the conditions, Luminosity shines without a center and arises without a place. No where to be found. This is the emptiness nature of Presence.

  • Soh Wei Yu Supernatural powers does exist and is not just magical thinking. But whether all stories are mythical or actually happened is another story. But as for siddhis, many people including John Tan has had experiences with them, various kinds. I have only very limited experiences with them compared to the other yogis, and mainly of a clairvoyant nature. I shall digress and just refer to others on this matter.



    Daniel M. Ingram wrote:

    ...As to crazy-ass experiences, here's a very short list: moving flames around with my mind with very Ghost-Busters-style energy blasts that accompanied the force that moved the flame, endless OBE stuff and lucid dream stuff, some of which was straight off the cushion and back to the cushion, predicting my wife having a car accident 4 years later accurately, hearing and seeing all manner of stuff (from British women chatting in their parlor about the news on the tele to pit preachers on Sunday morning talking about how the Buddhists in the monastery I was staying in would all go to Hell, and much, much more), have very profound and powerfully explanatory past-life experiences, have some bilocation-type experiences, being able to put my "ghost-hand" through a wall with all awareness and sensation perception then embodied in that rather than my usual body, being able to call up beyond-orgasmic bliss to roll through my body, being able to know to hit the breaks to slow down before I could possible see the deer about to run out in front of me on the way driving home, being able to make people do or stop doing various things (very grey morality territory here), being able to see and manipulate the energy channels in my body, being able to know who has called while the phone is ringing sometimes (lots of people can do that, actually), banishing a demon or two (whatever that means), and the endless crazy A&P stuff with my body exploding into energy and fire-works like experiences, bright lights, seeing through closed eye-lids, shaking, traveling, and many other strange things like that. There are more subtle magicks: long-range formally-cast intentions to have certain situations resolve within certain parameters, being able to feel what the person I was giving a back rub to was feeling and where the pain was, resolutions to have various jhanic experiences happen or to get stream entry or whatever, general subtle-energy manipulation in my body, rooms, situations, interactions, conversations, and even more subtle things: strange intuitions about how things will go, about what to do or not do in a certain situation. Even at times the musical things I write that just show up and seem unbidden seem magickal, but that's probably not what you were after.

    While obviously this stuff is quite interesting, in the end, as they all say and are right, it is actually things like finishing the process of insight and being kind, wise in a relative way, and helpful that make the most difference in terms of how good your life will be, though those things can help with that, if used properly and kept in perspective, which for some, like me, takes seeing them so many times I finally got somewhat (though not completely) bored by them. In short, if you have some powers experience, don't quit your day job.


    Also see interview: DY 008 – “Meditation, Magick, and the Fire Kasina” – with guest Daniel Ingram

    Thusness liked this article: http://integrateddaniel.info/magick-and-the-brahma-viharas/
  • On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis
    On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis
    On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis
  • Soh Wei Yu Also, check out this book:


    She was not a trained yogi before her nde but her nde itself and recovery was very miraculous

    It is an interesting book a new york times bestseller
  • Dying to be Me by Anita Moorjani
    Dying to be Me by Anita Moorjani
    Dying to be Me by Anita Moorjani
  • Soh Wei Yu A post by Daniel Ingram this year -

    “Might check out the book Real Magic, by Dean Radin, as well as some others, such as Supernormal and Entangled Minds, that is if you are interested in entertaining arguments that this stuff has long been proven and
    people just continue to reject it for fixed-paradigmatic/dogmatic reasons.

    Might get your concentration strong, like really strong, and see what happens, as there is nothing like doing the experiment yourself to inform questions and views. That is always more satisfying than reading some words on an internet forum, and can lead to other benefits as well. Basically, if you actually care about this stuff, care about it in a way that gives you the benefits that deep, caring practice leads to. If you don't actually care that much, consider moving to a forum that is more for theoretical discussions and skepticism than practice. Talk is cheap but also typically unsatisfying in these areas for all concerned.

    Haven't had anything in particular to do with Actualism in years, but did derive some interesting results from my experiments with it, and definitely don't regret that period of my practice, though I am happy that politics isn't happening now like it was then.

    Best wishes,

Additional information:

Dean Radin's works, such as Real Magic, Supernormal, and Entangled Minds, argue that phenomena often labeled as "supernatural" or "paranormal" have been scientifically proven through rigorous studies, but are frequently dismissed due to prevailing scientific paradigms and skepticism.

Key Points from Dean Radin's Works:
Historical and Cultural Context: Radin explores how practices considered "magical" have been part of human cultures for millennia, suggesting that these practices are rooted in a deep understanding of consciousness and reality.

Scientific Evidence: Radin presents various experiments and studies that he claims demonstrate the existence of psi phenomena (e.g., telepathy, precognition, psychokinesis). He argues that statistical analyses of these experiments show results that are significantly beyond chance, challenging the mainstream scientific community to reconsider its stance.

Quantum Mechanics: Radin often draws parallels between quantum mechanics and psi phenomena, suggesting that principles such as non-locality and entanglement might offer a scientific basis for understanding how consciousness could influence matter at a distance.

Skepticism and Paradigm Shifts: Radin discusses the resistance within the scientific community to accept psi phenomena, attributing this to fixed paradigms and dogmatic skepticism. He argues that this reluctance hinders progress and the acceptance of new evidence.

Daniel Ingram's Perspective:
Daniel Ingram suggests that rather than merely reading about these phenomena, individuals should engage in deep, focused practice (e.g., meditation, concentration exercises) to experience and understand these phenomena firsthand. He emphasizes the importance of personal experimentation and practice over theoretical debate, highlighting the transformative benefits that such practices can bring.

Ingram's viewpoint aligns with Radin's in advocating for an open-minded approach to exploring consciousness and reality, suggesting that personal experience and empirical evidence should guide one's understanding rather than rigid adherence to skeptical paradigms.

Further Exploration:
For those interested in exploring these ideas further, reading Radin's books (Real Magic, Supernormal, and Entangled Minds) can provide a more detailed examination of the arguments and evidence presented. Additionally, engaging in practices such as meditation and concentration exercises can offer personal insights and experiences that complement the theoretical and experimental findings discussed in these works.


Dean Radin's books provide numerous examples of studies and experiments that support the existence of psi phenomena and challenge the prevailing skepticism. Here are several examples from his books to illustrate the points made by Daniel Ingram:

From Real Magic (2018):
Global Consciousness Project: Radin discusses the Global Consciousness Project, which uses random number generators placed around the world to detect changes in randomness during major global events. The project has found statistically significant deviations from randomness during events like 9/11, suggesting a global consciousness effect.

Intention Experiments: Radin presents various experiments where participants focus their intentions on specific outcomes, such as changing the pH of water or influencing the growth of plants. These experiments often show results that are beyond what would be expected by chance, suggesting that human intention can have a measurable effect on physical systems.

Precognition and Presentiment: Radin describes studies where participants show physiological responses to future events. For instance, in experiments where participants are shown random images that are either calming or disturbing, their bodies often react to the images a few seconds before they are displayed, indicating a form of precognition.

From Supernormal (2013):
Meditation and Psychic Abilities: Radin explores the correlation between advanced meditation practices and the development of psychic abilities. He cites studies on yogis and monks who demonstrate abilities such as telepathy and psychokinesis, which are consistent with ancient texts describing siddhis (supernormal powers).

Remote Viewing: Radin discusses the practice of remote viewing, where individuals describe distant or unseen targets. Controlled experiments conducted by the U.S. government and independent researchers have shown that remote viewers can accurately describe locations and objects that are hidden from them.

From Entangled Minds (2006):
Telepathy Experiments: Radin details experiments on telepathy, such as the Ganzfeld experiments, where participants in separate rooms try to send and receive mental images. Meta-analyses of these experiments show statistically significant results, suggesting that telepathic communication is real.

Quantum Entanglement and Psi: Radin draws parallels between quantum entanglement and psi phenomena. He discusses experiments where paired particles exhibit correlated behaviors over distance, likening this to how minds might be interconnected in a similar way.

Supporting Daniel Ingram's Points:
Personal Experience and Practice: Radin's books often emphasize the value of personal experience and practice. For example, the positive results from meditators and yogis suggest that developing strong concentration and mindfulness practices can lead to personal experiences of psi phenomena, supporting Ingram's advice to engage deeply in such practices.

Overcoming Skepticism: Radin addresses the scientific community's resistance to accepting psi phenomena, mirroring Ingram's point about fixed paradigms. Radin argues that despite strong empirical evidence, psi research is often dismissed due to entrenched skepticism and materialist worldviews.

These examples from Radin's books provide a robust foundation for Ingram's points, illustrating how scientific studies and personal practice both support the existence of supernormal phenomena.
  • Soh Wei Yu Ken Wilber, Integral Meditation:

    “These examples also point out that some of the “narrative” forms of religion that we talked about earlier are holdovers from this early Magic period in our evolution, because they take quite literally the miraculous s
    tories in the Bible, for example (such as Moses parting the Red Sea). Even to this day, some adults are attracted to magical elements in their religion—they likely got involved with the religion in the first place because they are drawn to acts like magically walking on water, raising the dead, making the blind see, turning water into wine, and multiplying loaves and fishes. The religious practices of some sects might include things like handling live poisonous snakes, with the belief that their faith will magically protect them. (Unfortunately, a leader of one of the largest of these sects recently died, in his early 40s, after being bitten by a rattlesnake in one of these rituals.) And some present-day spiritual approaches, such as those described in The Secret and What the Bleep Do We Know? contain a heavy dose of this magic, which appeals, as we will see, to what’s called the egocentric or self-aggrandizing aspect of ourselves. This fantasy magic is a hidden

    map in much of the “law of attraction” and several other New Age notions. Now, this infantile word-magic is quite different from actual paranormal capacities, such as real ESP, precognition, or telekinesis, or the value of a strongly held intention in achieving one’s goals. Strictly controlled scientific experiments have demonstrated, beyond a reasonable doubt, that some of these capacities are indeed very real.2 (footnote reference to Dr Roger Walsh, researcher in consciousness studies and related fields) But the success at these paranormal capacities seems to dramatically go down when the person is motivated by purely selfish, egocentric, narcissistic, or power drives. There’s a big difference between fantasy magic and real psychic capacities, so do keep that in mind. Now, you might have some of these essentially magical superstitious notions, but you can easily tell whether they are magical hidden maps, and not real psychic powers, by noting how many self-aggrandizing motivations are also occurring around the magic notions. If they are wishes for nothing but your own glorification, your own success, your own specialness, or for beating out all others for the prize, and you are using magical practices (which are essentially a form of exaggerated wish-fulfillment), then you might very well have a fair amount of your awareness stuck at this early stage, this magical, fantasy, egocentric stage. If so, you will take up meditation to marvelously increase your own greatness, or magically bring you boons (getting the girl, the car, the new house, the promotion), or cause you to automatically lose weight and become irresistibly gorgeous, and miraculously give you all your own egoic desires just like that!, and basically put you first and foremost in all the world (yikes!). If you have a fair number of these magical beliefs, the recommendation, of course, will be to recognize them, to recognize that hidden map in your life, see how much of your life these superstitious magical beliefs are governing, and then hold them up to direct awareness, bringing them under the sunlight of pure mindfulness and radiant presence, thus turning them into mere objects of awareness. See these beliefs as objects in your mindfulness field instead of using them as subjects, as hidden maps with which you see the world. Look at them, not through them. Look directly and intensely at them—stop looking through them or with them. Videotape them to death.”
    • Reply
    • 13h

      Soh Wei Yu
      badge icon
      Powers are possible due to dependent origination. If things were inherently produced and fixed, it would not arise due to causes and conditions and be immutable and fixed, and all appearances will be impossible. Then powers will be impossible, also. So the OP is correct.
      On the other hand some people like Jesus interpreted their miracles to have come from other power, like an omnipotent God. This is not how Buddhadharma understands siddhis. Likewise, siddhis does not arise due to an all powerful Self or agent, as there is none.
      In buddhism, powers arise due to the dependent origination and cultivation of the four bases of powers.
      As Malcolm said years ago, “Nevertheless, Buddhism is a species of naturalism, asserting that everything that occurs can be explained without resort to supernatural explanations.”
      Of course, he is not negating powers, but he also pointed out that even siddhis were “produced” by causes and conditions, particularly samadhi

           · Reply
           · 3h

      Soh Wei Yu
      badge icon
      More on the naturalism part, Malcolm wrote:
      “Meanings are invented, consensual and conventional.
      As for your second sentence, it is very questionable that metaphysical naturalism is necessarily grounded in utilitarianism — I think you are making too broad a claim. For example, take this definition in which there is no species of utilitarianism mentioned:
      Naturalism, in recent usage, is a species of philosophical monism according to which whatever exists or happens is natural in the sense of being susceptible to explanation through methods which, although paradigmatically exemplified in the natural sciences, are continuous from domain to domain of objects and events. Hence, naturalism is polemically defined as repudiating the view that there exists or could exist any entities which lie, in principle, beyond the scope of scientific explanation.
      Buddhadharma [and Jaindharma] in this respect is also a species of metaphysical naturalism — in Buddhadharma there is no mystery precisely because "whatever exists or happens is natural" and there does not exist nor could exist "any entities which lie, in principle, beyond the scope of Dharma explanation."
      In other religions however [sans philosophical Taoism and Confucism], there is a profound mystery, God, through whose agency all things are created.
      Indeed, this is one of the reasons why Buddhadharma is so appealing to westerners with liberal educations. The naturalism of Buddhadharma and philosophical Taoism fit well into our already metaphysically naturalist predilections.
      HH Dalai Lama exemplifies this view with his confidence that indeed science can explain confirm, and justify any and all Buddhist beliefs, but even more than that, he recommends abandoning any Buddhist tenets that are directly contradicted by scientific explanation and found to be definitely false from a scientific point of view.

               · Reply
               · 2h

      Write a reply...

      Soh Wei Yu
      badge icon
      Also as i said to JT:

      [5:11 PM, 11/10/2020] Soh Wei Yu: I think those who experience all is mind but not anatta and especially total exertion are more prone to solipsism and idealism
      [6:50 PM, 11/10/2020] John Tan: Yes.
      [6:52 PM, 11/10/2020] John Tan: No privileging into either pole.

      6:52PM Ok The R U I A S D F G K L X c B N 123 space return'

           · Reply
           · 2h

      Soh Wei Yu
      badge icon
      Not implying the OP is falling into that trap though, but my previous discussion with Mr. A 2 years ago gave me an impression that his view is skewed towards that.
       · Reply
       · 2h · Edited
    • ----------------------------

      • badge icon
        One of the first 'students' of John Tan realised anatta in 2006 after being stuck at I AM for many years prior to meeting John Tan. Previously he was into a mystical group belonging to the Rosicrucian, the teachers were quite deeply experienced in the I AM to non dual and impersonality but not into anatta. The teachers were psychic and confirmed Sim Pern Chong's memories of his past lives (that is, they could see Sim's past lives as well). That mystical group's website: http://www.plotinus.com/

        (Sim Pern Chong's writings: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/search/label/Simpo%2FLongchen)

        Sim Pern Chong remembered many of his past lives in incredible details as he relived his past lives and not merely recalled vague scenes. He also knew how his current life wife, daughter, etc were related to him in his previous lives, also his daughter exhibits psychic ability even at a young age (John Tan commented the child seems just like the father). He actually was a Nyingma monk who practiced Dzogchen two lifetimes ago. I think he told me before about practicing in the Tibetan highlands overlooking vast expanse. This life, he got acquinted with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche again in 2012 when I told him to join me for that retreat. But it explains his interest in Dzogchen even way back in maybe early 2000s.
        Being a Tibetan monk in that lifetime, that means he surely had taken refuge, made bodhicitta aspiration etc in his previous life. But that didn't mean he could attain liberation in that lifetime, as most people do not. Nor did he realise anatta or emptiness or attain first bhumi, etc. In fact he remember that he only attained the I AM realization in his Tibetan monk lifetime, which was the first life he was into spirituality (the previous lifetimes before that had events leading up or causing his spiritual search in subsequent life but I shall digress).
        In the immediate past life, he did not encounter Buddhism but was reborn in western Europe, I believe France. He was fighting in world war 1 in the trenches in a scene which he relived, meaning it was incredibly real and vividly experienced as if he was 'there' again, and in that scene he could recall running across trenches, pausing for a while and thinking of his wife (I think), a sad scene. This caused some trauma for him and explained his anxieties about war in this life, and his past life recall helped solve his traumas. In that lifetime, he also realised I AM only and was involved in mysticism, which explained his current lifetime links with the mystical groups prior to meeting John Tan.
        Having I AM realization does not ensure some kind of mastery of rebirth or something like that. It is not even the first bhumi. That being said, Sim Pern Chong did recall some subconscious level (which he call 'Alaya') planning or blueprint of rebirth prior to appearing in this life. I actually had that sort of impression before, a brief one, of the spiritual purpose of my incarnation, as if there was some kind of plan or purpose. But I certainly am not a conscious emanation of some high level being, flawless, that was enlightened from birth.
        This life, he came to know John Tan through an internet forum in 2004 and realised anatta and emptiness.
        Malcolm said those who encounter Dzogchen teachings have had past life karmic connections with the teachings. Most practitioners that do their due diligence will attain liberation at the bardo. The very "lousy" ones will attain liberation within three lifetimes, so it does not mean you know Dzogchen then that means we are 'advanced' or special. It means we are the most lousy practitioners and didn't get liberated in the bardo or attain rainbow body in the previous life. Maybe we all had such links from previous lifetimes.

        (2024 Update by Soh: 

        Sim shared: For the benefit of whoever is reading this.. i share my personal experiences of relive past live occurrences.
        In a previous life, I adopt a stray dog as a young boy. Then WW1 broke out and i got conscripted as infantry soldier. Dog at home died due to no care. In this life, dog becomes someone that i have to take care of. This is how karma works. It doesn't really take into account that i was forced to leave in a drafted war.
        In another ancient life, i am in a group of medical trainee. A captured or slave woman.. i really dunno.. i just watch the scene as a first person... was disected alive. In this life, this woman becomes someone that i have endure hardship with. This is karma... and it again did not take into account that the trainees where forced to perform the dissection.
        Those that use mouth to direct the orders.. they do not incurr the direct karma of the 'hands-on' task of the subordinates. This is how dark forces manipulate karma for god know how long.. possibly even before there were modern day humans.
        These are not well articulated in traditional religious text.. because i believe many 'teachers' do not really go deep into the alaya. Most 'teachers' are just parroting 'teachings'. Realising no-self can be experienced in the sense sphere.. the alaya is a different kind of penetration .. it is penetration into the unseen realms of consciousness. Nothing beats the knowledge from direct perception.

        ... Hmm.. i really dunno. My approach is just a fine balancing act between finding insights and yet keeping the mind open minded. That is how i progressed.
        On a certain level, the knowledge of these are already there.. it is just blocked from the regular attention. I am at times also frustrated that the full awareness is not available. As a side note, i have been rebuked by a Being conveyed through a very wierd encounter where someone called me and then suddenly says his mentoring spirit guide wants to talk to me. And then the spirit guide took over the other guy and tell me how much i have forgotten and need to recover fuller memories.
        I think Achan Brahm has direct understanding of this area.. but he is kept by samaya to not reveal any psychic ability. I saw in one of his recent video that he mentioned that he is frustrated by not being able to talk about past lives of his own.) note: Achan Brahm = Ajahn Brahmavamso

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        Sim Pern Chong also foresaw this covid pandemic in a meditation vision more than a decade ago which he posted in sgForums - I still remember that post, a vision where all airplanes and transport stopped (as happened during the lockdown). He also had visions that preluded the 2004 tsunami, and this time he had another vision about the impact of global warming. It is catastrophic and I shall not divulge too much details. Humanity must work/cooperate with nature to survive this ordeal, it is existential. Personally I only knew from my meditation about a month+ before the worldwide outbreak of covid as I wrote in https://www.facebook.com/cyberlogy/posts/10163337237870226?__cft__[0]=AZWvDK4OQVQHBqnRdrbOW-ArbA3OCHFxMrA4MB5YYr8XKD88dw24zMr0_9ALNKeTsDEBQ2axJepO78DQPCRGcKfNAHmwbe1lnv_qZkUI8jZWZVNG0qLJH_Jz-nZAbzJH8Ig&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R . I forewarned a few people.
        I used to have more dreams of clarity and such visions in practice in the past during army days when I had much more time to meditate.
        Speaking of which, I shall go meditate now.

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        bro, this is the best post you’ve written yet!

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        I think it should be common that many of us have practiced for many lifetimes, although not always.
        I think back in 2012, the moment John Tan saw Kyle Dixon on skype video the first time back then, he psychically intuited that Kyle had a past life connection with Milarepa. In recent years John Tan reminded me about it again. According to wiki Milarepa lived in the 11th century. If this is true then maybe kyle has been practicing dharma for many lifetimes. John Tan also psychically knew a lot of things about me just by looking at me (things in this life or recent events that happened to me that was unspoken, which I could confirm was true and was shocked he knew about them).
        On the other hand some like Daniel Ingram claimed not to have been very spiritual in recent lifetimes.*
        Even some other people like j krishnamurti remembered being a student, a monk of Buddha - http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk22a.htm
        P.s. this is not a superiority contest of who has practiced for more lifetimes, just sharing some interesting stories.
        *daniel ingram:
        As to world-cycles or the like, my past life experiences line up along the following lines, if you believe in such experiences having validity:
        1) This life human.
        2) Last life some sort of moderately powerful, clearly somewhat debauched male jealous god/sorcerer of some kind that was stabbed in the back with a dagger by a woman who he had wronged in some way, I think.
        3) Some sort of mother skunk-like animal that was eaten by a large black dog or wolf.
        4) Some sort of mother bat that was killed when the rock it was clinging to at the top of the cave fell to the floor.
        5) Some sort of grim, gigantic, armored skeletal titan-like thing that ran tirelessly through space swinging a gigantic sword and doing battle nearly continuously without sleep for hundreds of thousands of years that was killed by something like a dragon.
        6) Some gigantic, gelatinous, multi-tentacled, very alien being living in a very dark place for a very long time, probably under water, I think.
        Other than some sense that the skunk-thing and the bat-thing were virtuous mothers, I have no sense that there was any profound previous dharmic development at least back that far, and, in fact, have the distinct sense that the previous one was a bit of a cad and not very ethical. Take that all for what you will.”
        The Buddha, Vipassana, J.Krishnamurti: Teachings - Krishnamurti; Dhamma - Buddha
        The Buddha, Vipassana, J.Krishnamurti: Teachings - Krishnamurti; Dhamma - Buddha
        The Buddha, Vipassana, J.Krishnamurti: Teachings - Krishnamurti; Dhamma - Buddha

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          Aayush Jain
          I better not write more otherwise it will turn into 西游记。Especially if I talk about my own experiences and John's experiences of meeting and receiving teachings from Buddhas and Bodhisattvas in dreams of clarity, meditation, etc 🤣 but I think these are not very rare and has been written in books.

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    • Soh: actually people you met do also have past life connections and causes. like sim pern chong, the guy i mentioned above, he can recall exactly why he met his wife this life... actually in a past life he was a scientist who operated on his current wife, he was forced by the japanese government to do cruel tests on subjects. this guilt led him into tibetan buddhism and spirituality the next life and he realised the I AM in that life, and from that life he formed a connection with dzogchen teachings which also manifested in this life his interest in dzogchen even before he became a buddhist. in his previous immediate life he was living in france and could relive with his whole body the whole scene of fighting in ww1 trenches, which was really traumatising. but remembering it somehow helped him release some karmic patterns and traumas this life including a fear of military
      xabir Snoovatar

      so those intuitive people, they can sense karmic patterns and sense these connections and conditions
      in the life in france he also realised I AM and was involved in western mysticism, which also is why he was involved in rosicrucian and western mysticism before his encountering of john tan

    • Update: Sim Pern Chong wrote, “
    • I had a vivid memory of a scene as a soldier running across a mud field while its being bombarded. The cold of the European dawn and the panting of running with a rifle being held by my right arm.. .i can still remember.

    • I wore a uniform and carry a rifle similar to the French infantry as shown in this video clip... which also summed up the insanity of war. https://youtu.be/8zcL0PuvYWo

    • From lifetimes to lifetimes, I find a recurring theme of certain human existence .. that is that of 'living live without the freedom of choice'.。。 '人在江湖 身不由己'.”

    • "guilt led him into tibetan buddhism" he was a tibetan monk in that lifetime and could remember meditating overlooking vast expanse in mountains 

      So you mean to say that past lives is actually a "valid mode of arising" conventionally. Right?
      yes.. also sim pern chong had many very interesting accounts. he could remember in details his past lives and how his wife, his daughter and his experiences in this life were all linked to specific karmic causes and relations in previous life
      and how they were related in previous life and why they meet again etc
      Is this not same as past life regression therapy?
      Brain Weiss stuff?
      not the same. there are two types, there is past life regression therapy that leads to trance like hypnotic states. that is also one way of retrieving past life memories. but for sim pern chong, his is also by way of entering samadhi and jhana, and when recalled through this way the memories were hyper vivid and real through whole body remembering, as if he was reliving the event
      or as john tan also said about another practitioner in 2006,
      Session Start: Sat Feb 18 21:32:54 2006 Session Ident: ^john^ <ZeN`n1th> hi did u see the meditation post? <^john^> just read through. <^john^> :) <^john^> she is not experiencing it correctly and becoz the foundation is still not strong enough, she will face problem later. <ZeN`n1th> oic what she experienced <ZeN`n1th> jhanas isit <^john^> it is a sort of absorption. <^john^> but it is not like longchen [sim pern chong] that profound. <ZeN`n1th> oic.. <ZeN`n1th> absorption = jhana ? <ZeN`n1th> what u mean by absorption <^john^> and with her current stage, it is not advisable to know about reincarnation and past life regression. <^john^> yeah <ZeN`n1th> she wanted to know meh?? <ZeN`n1th> btw why not advisable to know about reincarnation? <^john^> but that is my advise, some ppl are more attached to mystical experiences. :) <ZeN`n1th> hmm but longchen [Sim Pern Chong]'s experience is not jhana rite? <ZeN`n1th> oic.. <^john^> becoz she will not be able to cope and understand the full meaning when she recall. :) <ZeN`n1th> oic <^john^> when one reaches a stage of absorption, at that moment, as described in the text she posted, he will be able to recall. <^john^> the entire body will recall, not just the mind. :) <^john^> memories is not just in the mind. :P <ZeN`n1th> oic... <^john^> anyway not to indulge into such thing first, it will not be fruitful for practice. <^john^> 🙂

    • this is also an interesting article:

      If you had just one person who had been confirmed as medically dead who could describe to the doctors, as soon as they were revived, what had been said, and done during that period of death, wouldn't that be pretty convincing? When I was doing elementary particle physics there was a theory that required for its proof the existence of what was called the 'W' particle. At the cyclotron in Geneva, CERN funded a huge research project, smashing atoms together with an enormous particle accelerator, to try and find one of these 'W' particles. They spent literally hundreds of millions of pounds on this project. They found one, just one 'W' particle. I don't think they have found another since. But once they found one 'W' particle, the researchers involved in that project were given Nobel prizes for physics. They had proved the theory by just finding the one 'W' particle. That's good science. Just one is enough to prove the theory.

      When it comes to things we don't like to believe, they call just one experience, one clear factual undeniable experience, an anomaly. Anomaly is a word in science for disconcerting evidence that we can put in the back of a filing cabinet and not look at again, because it's threatens our world view. It undermines what we want to believe. It is threatening to our dogma. However, an essential part of the scientific method is that theories have to be abandoned in favour of the evidence, in respect of the facts. The point is that the evidence for a mind independent of the brain is there. But once we admit that evidence, and follow the scientific method, then many cherished theories, what we call 'sacred cows' will have to be abandoned.


      If you want to look at the scientific evidence for rebirth, check out Professor Ian Stevenson. He spent his whole life researching rebirth on a solid scientific basis at the University of Virginia.[4] Chester Carlson, the inventor of xerography, (encouraged by his wife) offered funds for an endowed chair at the University to enabled Professor Stevenson to devote himself full-time to such research. If it weren't for the fact that people do not want to believe in rebirth, Dr. Ian Stevenson would be a world famous scientist now. He even spent a couple of years as a visiting fellow of Magdalene College in Oxford, so you can see that this is not just some weird professor; he has all of the credentials of a respected Western academic.

      Dr. Stevenson has over 3000 cases on his files. One interesting example was the very clear case of a man who remembered many details from his past life, with no way of gaining that information from any other source. That person died only a few weeks before he was reborn! Which raises the question, for all those months that the foetus was in the womb, who was it? As far as Buddhism is concerned, the mother kept that foetus going with her own stream of consciousness. But when another stream of consciousness entered, then the foetus became the new person. That is one case where the stream of consciousness entered the mother's womb when the foetus was almost fully developed. That can happen. That was understood by Buddhism twenty five centuries ago. If the stream of consciousness doesn't enter the mother's womb, the child is a stillborn. There is a heap of evidence supporting that.
    • -------
      [5/12/15, 8:23:33 PM] John Tan: Go read Dr. Sam Parnia
      [5/12/15, 8:26:27 PM] John Tan: He is very good like Ian Stevenson...a dr, cardiologists  unlike a psychiatrist ...that deals with death everyday ... Dealing with cardio arrest and pronounced clinically dead...and a respected person in his field
      [5/12/15, 8:31:51 PM] John Tan: Instead of Sam Harris
      [5/12/15, 8:31:53 PM] John Tan: Lol
      [5/12/15, 8:31:59 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Lol
      [5/12/15, 8:32:11 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Am going to get ian stevensons book
      [5/12/15, 8:33:20 PM] John Tan: Just like when u do research on past life experiences documented by ian Stevenson and his assistant ... Read his assistant account...his assistant dead if I m not wrong just to get some real account
      [5/12/15, 8:33:30 PM] John Tan: Not those kind of bullshit
      [5/12/15, 8:34:54 PM] John Tan: Obe and nde r not those seeing light tunnels ... Feeling peaceful...or passing electricity to pineal gland region to induce certain experience ...
      [5/12/15, 8:35:43 PM] John Tan: I m interested in those accounts that dr Sam Parnia is talking abt
      [5/12/15, 8:37:45 PM] John Tan: Where blood stop...brain activities stop...there is no possibility of any registering of memories or any  sensory function because it is clinically impossible because he is a cardiologist and dealing with how to get ppl back to life ... He needs to know all sort of signs there and then...
      [5/12/15, 8:38:34 PM] John Tan: We r talking abt life and death trying resuscitate life in emergency room...lol
      [5/12/15, 8:39:11 PM] John Tan: Not as an academician taking abt this and that as a story
      [5/12/15, 8:43:39 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
      [5/12/15, 8:49:50 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Sam harris said about ian stevensons,
      [5/12/15, 8:49:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: elaborate fraud, or something interesting is going on," Harris says. "Most scientists would say this doesn't happen. Most would say that if it does happen, it's a case of fraud. ... It's hard to see why anyone would be perpetrating a fraud -- everyone was made miserable by this [xenoglossy] phenomenon." Pressed, he admits that some of the details might after all be "fishy."
      [5/12/15, 8:50:16 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Either he is a victim of truly elaborate fraud, or something interesting is going on," Harris says. "Most scientists would say this doesn't happen. Most would say that if it does happen, it's a case of fraud. ... It's hard to see why anyone would be perpetrating a fraud -- everyone was made miserable by this [xenoglossy] phenomenon." Pressed, he admits that some of the details might after all be "fishy."
      [5/12/15, 8:51:02 PM] John Tan: Meaning?
      [5/12/15, 8:51:55 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I think he thinks ian stevesons study might convincingly suggest reincarnation but still hs his doubts
      [5/12/15, 8:55:27 PM] John Tan: There will always b doubt becoz he is a sceptic ...
      [5/12/15, 8:56:45 PM] John Tan: And Ian Stevenson books r scientific studies, not science.  He is a scientist but understand that science cannot prove anything like that besides verification.
      [5/12/15, 8:58:00 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
      [5/12/15, 8:59:16 PM] John Tan: How is one to prove past life except by verification?  Unlike OBE experiences, where medical definition of "death" is clear and ppl start resuscitating ppl back to life... Hearing true expert in the field is imp.
      [5/12/15, 9:41:21 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..
      [5/12/15, 9:42:57 PM] Soh Wei Yu: I guess the problem with obe is they may cast doubt whether the obe happened moments before of after the medical death. but i dont see how they can explain things like witnessing medical procedures accurately in obe
      [5/12/15, 9:43:26 PM] John Tan: Not what u to think lah
      [5/12/15, 9:43:47 PM] John Tan: Go listen to Sam parnia in YouTube
      [5/12/15, 9:43:56 PM] John Tan: There r some that I like
      [5/12/15, 9:44:03 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic.. ok
      [5/12/15, 9:45:35 PM] John Tan: There r only 3 ways, one is respected expert and one u, by religious faith and lastly practice experience urself.
      [5/12/15, 9:46:25 PM] John Tan: Sceptical is as bulshiting as taking by faith to me.
      [5/12/15, 9:46:39 PM] John Tan: My approach is neither
      [5/12/15, 9:46:54 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Ic..
      [5/12/15, 9:47:06 PM] John Tan: Practice and listening to respected experts
      [5/12/15, 9:49:14 PM] John Tan: I also like dr Peter Fenwick
      [5/12/15, 9:57:01 PM] John Tan: There is another one Dr Pim Van Lommel
      [5/12/15, 10:14:22 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. will look into them
    • ..............
    • See: https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/summary_of_evidence 

      Evidence for the Afterlife


      For all those skeptics/materialists out there who think siddhis are woo woo, superstitions, etc, the CIA takes it seriously and has very interesting findings and research: https://www.vice.com/en/article/7k9qag/how-to-escape-the-confines-of-time-and-space-according-to-the-cia


      u/tool-94 avatar

      3y ago

      Edited 3y ago
      Holy shit, I have heard of this before but never thought anyone has got it on film. It’s very rare to be allowed to film this stuff, so naturally I was always skeptical.



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      3y ago
      Go read The Holographic Universe for a lot more examples of this kind of stuff.



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      u/tool-94 avatar

      3y ago
      By Michael Talbot, I have read it a few times. One of my favourite books actually



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      - https://www.reddit.com/r/HighStrangeness/comments/k87iec/chi_energy_documentary_proof_of_chi/

      .......... https://www.facebook.com/groups/AwakeningToReality/posts/25473693455578744/?__cft__[0]=AZW9StYSoPpAdy4hTNCp-Bxa8ckCTQ6-jYWopWnHQagigZEjiQVbCRM6_YQmDgd-nDN2gL5LmlK86ORdSUUbQ4fbFeGFqLTnpjsgTvX-ZqoLlpQfzHSrw19sjn3oLroyMwZ8wDNnUsolgvd1fkyP-XRB5l0c1lVwwR55FYKKNKGAng&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R
      Soh Wei Yu
      All-star contributor
      Regarding the Chi demonstration, Chi demonstrations are very common in Asian countries. My own family has experienced the 'electric shock' currents from Chi masters, they were public demonstrations. How it works is the moment he puts his hand on someone, and the people behind them all chained up by putting their hands on the shoulders of each one in front. When he 'passes Chi', all felt the electric current shocks. Although the burning paper with hand we've not seen yet.
      Also, this is Sim Pern Chong's father, he's the teacher of one of our past foreign minister, this one is Tai Chi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPAmScOHCYQ...
      Sim Pooh Ho
      Sim Pooh Ho
      Sim Pooh Ho
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        Adam Holt
        Soh Wei Yu do you accept everything that is said about the tathataga in this Sutta?
        Do you think that the focus within AtR leads to this fully? Or is AtR more of a sravaka system?
        Maha-sihanada Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar
        Maha-sihanada Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar
        Maha-sihanada Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lion's Roar

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      • Nafis Rahman
        Adam Holt Although there aren’t any Buddhas/Arhats in this group, John Tan has always aimed for Buddhahood since the very beginning.
        This is a basic classification:
        Anatta realization/ATR Stage 5 = Sutta Stream-Entry
        Anatta Actualization/Freedom from 10 Fetters = Arhatship
        Actualization of Twofold Emptiness + Omniscience + Freedom from Cognitive Obscurations (in addition to emotional obscurations attained upon Arhatship) = Buddhahood
        “[To attain Buddhahood], you must free [yourself] from 2 obscurations and 4 mara.” – John Tan, 2020
        Two obscurations (Tib. སྒྲིབ་པ་གཉིས་, dribpa nyi; Wyl. sgrib pa gnyis) — emotional and cognitive obscurations.
        ● Emotional obscurations are defined according to their essence, cause and function.
        In essence, they are the opposite of the six paramitas, as described in the Gyü Lama:
        "Thoughts such as avarice and so on,
        These are the emotional obscurations."
        Their cause is grasping at a personal ego, or the “self of the individual”.
        They function to prevent liberation from samsara.
        ● Cognitive obscurations are also defined according to their essence, cause and function.
        In essence, they are thoughts that involve the three conceptual ‘spheres’ of subject, object and action. The Gyü Lama says:
        "Thoughts that involve the three spheres,
        These are the cognitive obscurations."
        Their cause is grasping at phenomena as truly existent, or, in other words, the “self of phenomena”.
        Their function is to prevent complete enlightenment.”
        On the four maras,
        “According to Sutrayana
        1. the mara of the aggregates (Skt. skandhamāra; Tib. ཕུང་པོའི་བདུད་, Wyl. phung po'i bdud), which symbolizes our clinging to forms, perceptions, and mental states as ‘real’;
        2. the mara of the destructive emotions (Skt. kleśamāra; Tib. ཉོན་མོངས་ཀྱི་བདུད་, Wyl. nyon mongs kyi bdud), which symbolizes our addiction to habitual patterns of negative emotion;
        3. the mara of the Lord of Death (Skt. mṛtyumāra; Tib. འཆི་བདག་གི་བདུད་, Wyl. 'chi bdag gi bdud), which symbolizes both death itself, which cuts short our precious human birth, and also our fear of change, impermanence, and death; and
        4. the mara of the sons of the gods (Skt. devaputramāra; Tib. ལྷའི་བུའི་བདུད་, Wyl. lha'i bu'i bdud), which symbolizes our craving for pleasure, convenience, and ‘peace’.
        Rigpa Wiki
        Rigpa Wiki
        Rigpa Wiki

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        In addition to what Nafis said which is correct -
        Regarding powers like recalling past lives and so on, that depends on individuals practice. There are at least 4 persons in AtR that realised anatta who developed past life recollections in their practice. But not all. However, with the development of samadhi, these are quite common. Having these powers however are not an indication of awakening.
        In Buddhism, everything, including omniscience and siddhis, have their causes and conditions, as Malcolm said before. For example the development of samadhi is a primary cause. So it would be magical thinking if one thinks that having insight alone will magically produce siddhis. As Malcolm said, Buddhism is a "Buddhadharma [and Jaindharma] in this respect is also a species of metaphysical naturalism — in Buddhadharma there is no mystery precisely because "whatever exists or happens is natural" and there does not exist nor could exist "any entities which lie, in principle, beyond the scope of Dharma explanation."
        In other religions however [sans philosophical Taoism and Confucism], there is a profound mystery, God, through whose agency all things are created." - http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../on-supernatural... Therefore the so called 'magical' powers are in fact not exactly magical but causally arisen.
        For example Susima Sutta gave examples of great numbers of arahats who had zero siddhis: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_70.html Also, even in Mahayana and Vajrayana paths, these powers may not manifest immediately for those who follow direct path towards insight*.
        In Moonlight of Mahamudra by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (all texts by Dakpo Tashi including Clarifying the Natural State are highly recommended, by myself, John Tan, even other teachers like Daniel Ingram, and Malcolm who are not Mahamudra practitioners), it states:
        "Some have offfered the following comment:
        Only an ignorant person can make the false statement
        That he who has realized the path of insight in this life
        Will achieve the great qualities in the next.
        They commented for the sake of criticizing. Without any
        definite knowledge they said that it is the lie of an ignorant
        person to say that he who has realized the path of insight in
        this life will attain the twelve-hundred great qualities in the
        next. No scriptural passage specifically states that one who
        has realized the path of insight will instantly gain all the
        sublime qualities while not being deceased. However, a
        passage saying that such a realized one will be reborn as a
        universal monarch, dominating the world through the wheel
        of mystical power, refers to the next but not to this life. For
        example, a female yogin who realized the path of insight
        will not physically transform herself into a universal
        monarch without departing from this life. Moreover, if
        someone who has attained this path of insight must literally
        demonstrate all the great qualities that represent his first
        ground of enlightenment, so clearly described in the
        treatises, he would be impelled to deny the achievements
        of not only the scholars and saints of Tibet and ancient
        India but even of the Bodhisattvas, the disciples of the
        Buddha. This would contradict the historical events.
        Apparently these critics have failed to examine the s̄tra
        The Dáabh̄ mika-s̄tra states:
        He who has attained the first ground is likely to be
        reborn as a universal monarch. If he [in his next life]
        dwells in the solitude of a forest, having renounced
        his worldly life, he is likely to achieve the twelvehundred
        great qualities, including a hundred diffferent
        forms of absorption.
        The term “likely” indicates that there is no absolute
        certainty with regard to all these possibilities. To imply
        that the Dáabh̄mika-s̄tra is the source of what they referred
        to as “the false statement” is a great shame.
        Some treatises state that even though one may have fully
        realized the mind as being the aspect of ultimate reality
        [dharmak̄ya], one might not have acquired the great
        qualities of enlightenment in this life, because one has not
        achieved the release from the threefold bondage, such as
        the body. This physical hindrance is compared to the
        eggshell that entraps the infant eagle. However, such an
        aspirant will, during the stages of his death, rise in an
        illusory form of consummate bliss [sambhogak̄ya], having
        just experienced the luminous awareness.
        Referring to the belated realization of the great qualities,
        other people have criticized by saying that it is astonishing
        for the sunlight to appear tomorrow when the sun has
        already risen today. This is absolutely wrong: They
        ignored the treatises of esoteric Buddhism [vajraȳna],
        which proclaim that mystics will realize the enlightenment
        of dharmak̄ ya through the process of dying and of
        sambhogak̄ya through the intermediate state [bardo]. The
        treatise entitled the Chaturdev̄parip̣c
        ch̄ proclaims:
        When one’s physical vehicle of karma disintegrates,
        Then, through one’s spiritual power,
        One will achieve such a body as one has aspired to.
        This body will permeate all static and dynamic
        The way space encompasses everything.
        Understand that it remains so.
        The Sampụa affirms:
        When one’s physical vehicle of karma disintegrates,
        One will attain a supreme form.
        Keeping in view this matter [of attaining some of the
        great qualities long after one has realized the spiritual
        path], Je Shang states:
        Misery may not completely disappear
        Immediately upon realizing the [truth of] nonduality.
        Who can deny that someone has attained the path of
        Even though he has yet to realize the complete
        The early morning sun can neither melt frozen water
        Nor heat the ground and stones at once.
        Yet who can deny the existence of the sun?
        Such sayings are consistent with the fact of human
        experience. For instance, the new moon may be incomplete
        in its form, yet it is still the moon. A child may not be fully
        grown, yet it is still a human being. However undeveloped
        a lion’s cub, it is still a lion. In this respect Je Gyare
        On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis, and Past Lives
        On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis, and Past Lives
        On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis, and Past Lives

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        Even among the Arahats
        There are two kinds:
        Adorned and unadorned ones.215
        Even among Bodhisattvas
        There are two kinds:
        Renowned and unrenowned ones.
        Even in the mystic tradition
        There are two kinds of mystics:
        The ones practicing secretly and the ones doing it
        amidst an assembly.
        With regard to those who have attained realization
        There are two kinds:
        Those who can describe [knowledge] and those who
        can demonstrate [it].
        Regarding those who have attained the grounds and
        There are two kinds:
        Those who have understood the grounds and paths
        And those who have achieved them.
        As for the great meditators who have knowledge of
        the grounds and paths
        And those who have realized [can demonstrate] them,
        Some have fully achieved great powers of
        psychophysical transformation
        While others have failed to attain them and others
        have achieved mixed abilities.
        Some of them fulfill the needs of sentient beings,
        While others fail to fulfill them.
        This is due to the greater or lesser intensity of their
        I shall now sum up these sayings. The great qualities
        associated with the grounds and the paths, according to the
        treatises of the vehicle of dialectics, are revealed skillfully
        out of some higher motivation. The paths [of the four
        yogas] are not the same as these. Even the inner signs of
        realization on these paths are diffferent. Just as there
        existed adorned and unadorned Arahats and renowned and
        unrenowned Bodhisattvas, there are different types of
        great meditators, some possessing the sublime power of
        transformation and others lacking this power, due mainly to
        the difference in the quality of their practices. It has been
        said that in order to achieve the sublime power of
        transformation and other great qualities, one must strive
        hard on the path of the transient world and the higher path
        of mantraȳna.
        With this I have completed the elucidation of the
        editation on the Mah̄ mudr̄ of ultimate certainty, especially
        the differentiation of each of the four yogas and the
        methods for crossing the grounds and the paths of

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        • 20m

      • Soh Wei Yu
        Likewise, Acarya Malcolm told me a decade+ ago,
        xabir wrote:
        I was wondering then is Shakyamuni Buddha a "complete" or "inferior" Buddha, and if he attained complete Buddhahood does that mean he too practiced Dzogchen or Mahamudra or something similar, or did he truly walk the three aeons Mahayana way to Buddhahood? Also, I have heard lamas who say those who attain Buddhahood in one life (through Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc) will not manifest all powers, omniscience, etc within their present life but will do so after death. What is your opinion?
        The Buddha was an emanation of compassion, so not inferior.
        As to your second question, yes, such people do not necessarily manifest all qualities of realization in this life, but do so after death.

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        • 19m

      • Soh Wei Yu
        *As John Tan also said before, "ATR insight is seeing through self nature except the praxis as in way of practice is direct approach via vipassana -- special insight. The seeing through of self as a background is not through analysis.
        Soh: Oic.. thrangu rinpoche also said thats the diff between mahamudra and madhyamika
        [11:20 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: When that is seen through, one becomes effortlessly non-dual in experience as there is no subject to "dual".
        [11:22 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: Both essencelessness and non-dual dawn in a single leap but that doesn't mean one has thoroughly eradicated proliferation. Hence mmk helps to do that.
        [11:24 pm, 29/10/2021] John Tan: So it is not about doing away with conceptualities but a special insight that sees through self nature."
        AtR direct path into anatta and its approach is similar to what the famous Mahamudra teacher Thrangu Rinpoche said about the Vajrayana approach:
        Thrangu Rinpoche on Nature of Mind
        Thrangu Rinpoche:
        In the Vajrayana there is the direct path to examining mind. In everyday life we are habituated to thinking, "I have a mind and I perceive these things." Ordinarily, we do not directly look at the mind and therefore do not see the mind. This is very strange because we see things and we know that we are seeing visual phenomena. But who is seeing? We can look directly at the mind and find that there is no one seeing; there is no seer, and yet we are seeing phenomena. The same is true for the mental consciousness. We think various thoughts, but where is that thinking taking place? Who or what is thinking? However, when we look directly at the mind, we discover that there is nobody there; there is no thinker and yet thinking is going on. This approach of directly looking in a state of meditation isn't one of reasoning, but of directly looking at the mind to see what is there.
        Source: Shentong and Rangtong
        If we look for a perceiver, we won’t find one. We do think, but if we look into the thinker, trying to find that which thinks, we do not find it. Yet, at the same time, we do see and we do think. The reality is that seeing occurs without a seer and thinking without a thinker. This is just how it is; this is the nature of the mind. The Heart Sutra sums this up by saying that “form is emptiness,” because whatever we look at is, by nature, devoid of true existence. At the same time, emptiness is also form, because the form only occurs as emptiness. Emptiness is no other than form and form is no other than emptiness. This may appear to apply only to other things, but when applied to the mind, the perceiver, one can also see that the perceiver is emptiness and emptiness is also the perceiver. Mind is no other than emptiness; emptiness is no other than mind. This is not just a concept; it is our basic state.
        The reality of our mind may seem very deep and difficult to understand, but it may also be something very simple and easy because this mind is not somewhere else. It is not somebody else’s mind. It is your own mind. It is right here; therefore, it is something that you can know. When you look into it, you can see that not only is mind empty, it also knows; it is cognizant. All the Buddhist scriptures, their commentaries and the songs of realization by the great siddhas express this as the “indivisible unity of emptiness and cognizance,” or “undivided empty perceiving,” or “unity of empty cognizance.” No matter how it is described, this is how our basic nature really is. It is not our making. It is not the result of practice. It is simply the way it has always been.
        Source: Crystal Clear ( )
        Thrangu Rinpoche on Nature of Mind
        Thrangu Rinpoche on Nature of Mind
        Thrangu Rinpoche on Nature of Mind

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        Also taking this chance to share something John Tan said recently about Buddhahood although not very related to this topic:
        "If there is alternation between +A and -A, that is arya along the path. If there is no alternation, that is buddhahood. That is just my opinion."
        I did not share the whole paragraph in full because he told me to avoid doing so, as he does not want to give any impression of sounding superior.

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          Soh Wei Yu
          Here's another excerpt by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, in Clarifying the Natural State:
          "During these three stages of One Taste, for the most
          part, keep to secluded places. From time to time, participate
          in group gatherings and you will progress.
          Even though you think that it makes no difference
          whether or not you meditate, it is essential to keep to seclusion
          and train in the true mindful presence.
          Even though you have attained the realization of greater
          One Taste, if you fail to have some degree of clairvoyance
          and receive signs from the dakinis, you must be tainted by
          damaged samayas. Therefore, make, for instance, a
          thousand tsa-tsas or the like, and offer a flower to each of
          them. Make the request, "May my defilement utterly
          subside!" Perform the dharani-rituaI for purifying
          defilement, as well as any other suitable virtuous practice.
          If you get involved in pleasure or displeasure when signs
          occur, you are influenced by Mara. Consider that being
          benefited or harmed, assisted or hurt by Mara, and so
          forth, are all your own mind and that this mind is limitless
          and centerless, like space."

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        • 1m

Session Start: Wednesday, 25 April, 2007

(3:24 PM) AEN: i met with longchen just now.. hehe

(4:09 PM) AEN: we discuss alot of things hehe

(4:10 PM) AEN: he said he cant maintain deconstructed state though non dual state is effortless for him

(4:10 PM) AEN: like when talking to me he is non dual but still theres perception

(4:11 PM) AEN: anyway he also thinks buddhism has more depth than others... lol

(4:11 PM) AEN: and tinks dream interpretation got down sides like can become attached to symbolism

(4:13 PM) AEN: can u maintain deconstructed, 'bright' state when talking to ppl?

(4:13 PM) AEN: isit there must be insight into self liberation of perception or something like that?

(4:14 PM) AEN: he also told me his past lives hahaa

(4:14 PM) AEN: his father, etc

(4:14 PM) AEN: alot of other things

(4:22 PM) AEN: the reason why he became a monk was becos in a previous lifetime prior to the tibetan monk...

(4:22 PM) AEN: he was one of those scientist or something..

(4:22 PM) AEN: he was among one of them watching the scientist dissecting a body of a woman... for research i think

(4:23 PM) AEN: then suddenly the woman woke up from her unconsciousness

(4:23 PM) AEN: and was like 'why are you doing this to me??' to her horror but the other scientist didnt hear her, they're like planning what organ to take out, etc

(4:23 PM) AEN: and he felt very very guilty and felt he shld go into spirituality

(4:23 PM) AEN: so next life become tibetan monk

(4:23 PM) AEN: lol

(4:24 PM) AEN: then this life he also like to research and experiment with things

(4:24 PM) AEN: he said was bcos of imprint from past life

(4:45 PM) AEN: he said jonls's energetic expansion is due to release of the self, 'hereness', and all the attachment... but wrongly interpreted as 'arising from the gut'

(4:46 PM) AEN: he also discussed qi gong just now.. and said at different stage of realisation, the qi is different

(5:20 PM) AEN: btw he also said something like we form labels on things we experience extremely fast and we usually din notice it

(5:21 PM) AEN: symbols i tink.. dunnu wat he said.. or perception

(6:53 PM) Thusness: yes i can. :)

(6:53 PM) AEN: oic how

(6:53 PM) Thusness: and transparency. :P

(6:53 PM) Thusness: but don't get attached to states. :P

(6:53 PM) AEN: lol

(6:54 PM) AEN: but how to remain deconstruct even when there are perceptions

(6:54 PM) AEN: like when u talk to me, there has to be symbols

(6:54 PM) Thusness: we are not use to completely without symbols...but we must at least certain period during waking state. :)

(6:54 PM) Thusness: i will tell u later.

(6:54 PM) AEN: oic

(6:56 PM) Thusness: that is a form of realisation.

(6:56 PM) Thusness: i will need to explain to u the essence of non-dual thinking.

(6:57 PM) AEN: icic..

(6:57 PM) Thusness: and what david loy mean but din really grasp the essence of it.

(6:57 PM) AEN: oic..

(6:59 PM) Thusness: my the other book came. :)

(6:59 PM) Thusness: hehe

(6:59 PM) AEN: icic..

(6:59 PM) Thusness: but more of a reference.

(6:59 PM) AEN: oic

(6:59 PM) Thusness: came back early for that book.

(6:59 PM) Thusness: :P

(6:59 PM) AEN: hahaha

(6:59 PM) AEN: icic

(6:59 PM) AEN: u were having meeting just now rite?

(7:00 PM) AEN: what other book btw

(8:05 PM) AEN: longchen told me deconstruction is a state free from perception

(8:05 PM) AEN: i ask what he meant by perception

(8:05 PM) AEN: he say sensations of sound, sight, etc are all perception

(8:05 PM) AEN: then i ask if there is no perception of 5 senses and thoughts, how is that different from unconsciousness

(8:05 PM) AEN: he replied "I dunno how to explain... but there is no unconsciousness... rather there is a bliss and brightness. It is also here that one realises that thought content is the cause of much of the suffering."

(8:31 PM) Thusness: that is good. :)

(8:31 PM) Thusness: i mean what he said is quite good. :)

(8:33 PM) AEN: oic

(8:33 PM) AEN: but i still dun really understand hows tat different from unconscious

(8:33 PM) AEN: lol

(8:33 PM) AEN: can u explain

(8:33 PM) Thusness: cannot...this is not what he meant.

(8:34 PM) Thusness: what he meant is there is no differentiation of sound, sight...etc

(8:34 PM) Thusness: it becomes isness

(8:34 PM) AEN: oic...

(8:35 PM) AEN: orh so no differentiation

(8:35 PM) Thusness: means sensate reality of sound, sight..etc becomes deconstruction from meanings....and become one whole experience of Isness.

(8:35 PM) AEN: ok

(8:35 PM) Thusness: there must be clarity of it.

(8:35 PM) AEN: icic

(8:35 PM) Thusness: u r in temasek poly

(8:35 PM) AEN: yea

(8:36 PM) Thusness: but he must also know in clarity of how consciousness blind us and how subtle it is.

(8:36 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:36 PM) Thusness: and the continuous function of this habitual tendencies to blind us

(8:36 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:37 PM) Thusness: until isness and blinding become clear.

(8:37 PM) AEN: oic

(8:38 PM) AEN: means no karmic propensities left?

(8:38 PM) AEN: lol nice display pic

(8:39 PM) Thusness: u can c it?

(8:39 PM) Thusness: lol

(8:40 PM) AEN: yea lol

(8:43 PM) Thusness: so u know what longchen mean by deconstruction of perception...

(8:43 PM) Thusness: there is no sound, sight...etc

(8:44 PM) Thusness: then it is the clarity of that Isness...

(8:44 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:44 PM) Thusness: and the factors prevent that clarity of Isness as I have mentioned to jonls

(8:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(8:45 PM) Thusness: means the dropping must be thorough as a background, body then later propensities.

(8:45 PM) AEN: icic

(8:45 PM) Thusness: we are so used to perceptions and thinking

(8:45 PM) AEN: oic

(8:45 PM) Thusness: so we must get used to effortless clarity that is Isness itself

(8:46 PM) Thusness: and experience the concreteness as 'forms'

(8:47 PM) AEN: btw longchen said he said meditation can sometimes b a hindrance at latter stages

(8:47 PM) AEN: cos of a sense of wilfulness to meditate

(8:48 PM) AEN: so now his meditation is spontaneous and without will

(8:48 PM) Thusness: yes

(8:48 PM) Thusness: this is very true. :)

(8:48 PM) AEN: he meditate whenever there is opportunity to meditate.. like just now there was an overhead bridge with a nice expansive scenery hehe.. its quite long and he said he often do walking meditation there and can get v deep 'deconstructed' states

(8:48 PM) AEN: though he still sit down and meditate lah

(8:49 PM) AEN: oic

(8:49 PM) Thusness: that is very good. :)

(8:49 PM) Thusness: means is experiencing without background as Oneness...

(8:49 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:49 PM) Thusness: it must be thoroughly clear.

(8:49 PM) AEN: oic

(8:50 PM) Thusness: like what toni packer said.

(8:50 PM) AEN: icic

(8:51 PM) Thusness: meditation is the oneness clarity...when one's non-dual is up to a certain stage.

(8:51 PM) Thusness: always oneness clarity...

(8:51 PM) Thusness: till the background is completely gone...just only the obviousness

(8:52 PM) Thusness: there are differing degree...

(8:52 PM) Thusness: of clarity

(8:52 PM) AEN: oic

(8:52 PM) Thusness: then opening eyes and walking everything moment is meditation.

(8:52 PM) Thusness: it is insight meditation.

(8:52 PM) Thusness: :)

(8:52 PM) AEN: icic

(8:53 PM) Thusness: when the deconstruction is gone, sight, sound, touch....how can there be a body?

(8:53 PM) Thusness: if there is no body, how can there be an inner and outer?

(8:53 PM) AEN: oic...

(8:54 PM) Thusness: so that is why i told u i am always in no body

(8:54 PM) Thusness: not as a stage

(8:54 PM) Thusness: but as a form of realisation

(8:54 PM) AEN: icic

(8:54 PM) Thusness: as an insight

(8:54 PM) AEN: oic

(8:54 PM) AEN: longchen also no body?

(8:55 PM) Thusness: like what ur lzls said...but it is not a form of meditation but insight that has sunk deep into our consciousness

(8:55 PM) Thusness: should be...

(8:55 PM) AEN: icic.. but if 24/7 means effortless already rite

(8:55 PM) Thusness: and has to be up to this

(8:55 PM) AEN: oic

(8:55 PM) Thusness: then the background and body is drop like dogen said.

(8:55 PM) AEN: icic..

(8:56 PM) Thusness: then again like what dogen said he realised that he has come to see clearly that mountains, sky, rivers and birds are really mind. :)

(8:56 PM) Thusness: but this mind and awareness is one.

(8:56 PM) Thusness: :)

(8:56 PM) AEN: oic..

(1:32 AM) Thusness: lets say u have experience anatta, no-self, u become transparent, that is mirror bright wisdom....

(1:33 AM) AEN: icic..

(1:33 AM) AEN: but no self doesnt mean transparent?

(1:33 AM) AEN: btw transparent is deconstructed?

(1:34 AM) AEN: pathie isnt around?

(1:35 AM) Thusness: the experience of non-duality

(1:35 AM) Thusness: now actually when u have fear, the wisdom of great equality will not arise

(1:35 AM) Thusness: no matter how u bluff. :P

(1:35 AM) Thusness: how one bluff.

(1:36 AM) AEN: icic..

(1:36 AM) AEN: wat u mean by how u bluff

(1:36 AM) Thusness: so an experience of being stunt back will also mean that the wisdom of equality will not be there.

(1:36 AM) AEN: oic

(1:36 AM) AEN: but 'stunting' is used in zen and dzogchen right

(1:36 AM) AEN: like shouting, etc

(1:36 AM) AEN: haha

(1:37 AM) Thusness: don't mix zen...

(1:37 AM) Thusness: i dunno :P

(1:37 AM) AEN: btw fear has to do with attachment to body?

(1:37 AM) Thusness: i am toking about that particular experience that is real and can be experienced.

(1:37 AM) AEN: icic

(1:37 AM) AEN: u hold on ah

(1:38 AM) AEN: u heard the shouting phat practise?

(1:38 AM) AEN: this is a dzogchen pith instruction but someone on internet

(1:38 AM) AEN:

Three words strike the essential meaning.

First, keep your mind relaxed,

Not scattered, not concentrated and without divisive thoughts.

Resting in this state of even minded relaxation,

Utter a sudden mind shattering PHAT,

Forceful, vigorous and abrupt.

E MA HO!   How marvellous!...

(1:38 AM) AEN:

Nothing at all!... Astonishment and wonderment!...

In this state of wonderment, all penetrating mental freedom,

An all encompassing mental freedom that is inexpressible,

Recognise this awareness, the dimension of absolute reality.

Identifying the primacy of the nature of mind is the first essential point

(1:39 AM) AEN: hmm those text also talk about self liberation

(1:39 AM) AEN:

Like a drawing on water,

There is uninterrupted self arising and self liberation:

Whatever arises is sustenance for naked awareness emptiness,

All fluctuation the creativity of the sovereign dimension of the absolutely real,

Spontaneously self purified and leaving no trace   A LA LA!

The mode of arising is the same as before

(1:40 AM) AEN: *somehow on internet

(1:40 AM) Thusness: wow...

(1:40 AM) Thusness: not bad...

(1:40 AM) AEN: icic

(1:41 AM) AEN: but what about the stunting? lol

(1:42 AM) AEN: http://www.jungcircle.com/mist/buddhism.htm

(1:42 AM) Thusness: don't tink too much...that is why i don't want to tell u.

(1:42 AM) Thusness: i got to go now. :)

(1:42 AM) AEN: haha

(1:42 AM) AEN: ok gd nite

(1:43 AM) Thusness: nite.

(1:44 AM) Thusness is now Offline

(1:49 AM) AEN: continued from the last part

(1:49 AM) AEN:

But there is an immense and crucial difference in the mode of liberation,

And without it meditation is a path of delusion.

Possessing it is the state of the dimension of absolute reality beyond meditation:

Confidence in (simultaneous arising and) liberation is the third essential point.

(1:54 AM) AEN: wah so many articles on self liberation

(1:54 AM) AEN:

What is more, if practice lacks the essential method of the liberation (of thoughts) on (their) arising, since all the many discursive thoughts arising from the ongoing subconscious current of mental events become mixed with the karma of cyclic existence, whatever thoughts are generated, be they subtle or gross, it is essential that one watch their (simultaneous) arising and liberation so that not a trace is left. Thus, ... And of all adventitious thoughts without exception,...