Showing posts with label Suffering. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Suffering. Show all posts[0]=AZU16atTFytnacLJ0BTqD_9iwcmmLEpexfmUUrOMPk-VGZ_3YlOdRC62CYmdE3OZAUPkKmD5i7zOrzzfFPfWGvD2lTVkwrnfdn-kR_78UB5Mhx-H2qh0IYXha8fppX--F97mm8-g0LlSdLhKVQz0xdttRjlPEWsFjTYoBUWQci0m7gKltZgNd4n6gBjUeH2P2K8&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Soh Wei Yu



As John Tan said before, if you still experience even the slightest negative emotions when faced with the worldly winds, then in such case, you have not even lived in non-dual radiance to the "middle level", otherwise whatever happens to you, the eight worldly winds, they won't affect you at all. Even if loved ones depart from your life and so on, the universe collapses, whatever. Therefore if one feels one is still affected even in the slightest (like feeling the slightest tinge of sadness or attachment to anything that happens), then one must increase one's practice. You have to sit and overcome the body to stillness and then to pervasiveness of radiance, and master a skill (method of practice) that can help to develop your meditation (shamatha-vipashyana) and don't think you have reached the ultimate stage of non-meditation. It's a joke, laughable, he said.


Yin Ling


Soh Wei Yu this comment should be a post in itself!


Owen Richards

Where is suffering and the end of suffering in such perceptual takes on awakening?


Soh Wei Yu



Owen Richards That has to do with the depth of how deep your realisation has sunk in and liberates the latent tendency. This is why there is the gradation from stream entry to arahantship. Or 1st bhumi to Buddhahood. The Buddha said 'in the seen just the seen... you in terms of that...' in Bahiya Sutta is equivalent to 'the end of suffering', and Bahiya got it instantly and attained Arahantship, the complete end of mental afflictions and suffering. But does that mean everyone who has the anatman insight becomes an arahant instantly? No, usually it means one starts with stream entry ( , ), unless you are of the elite calibre. This is why as Kyle Dixon said in 2013, “99% of individuals require integration and familiarization. The non-gradual individuals [cig car ba's] are said to be as rare as stars in the day time, and the Dalai Lama attests that there hasn't been a cig car ba for centuries.”

But when you are in actual equipoise, even if you are just a stream enterer, there is no suffering. There is literally no self/Self at all either. In the seen just the seen, no seer, no seeing and nothing seen.. and same goes for all senses. Just bright, vivid, empty luminosity/radiance as all appearances. And sustaining the awakened equipoise is the way to burn away all residual latent karmic traces. But whether at the beginning you have that insight suffused with sufficient samadhi and stability is another matter, without that strength you will still be affected by the traces. When that awakened equipoise is unbroken 24/7/365 even into all the three states and all subtle latent tendencies have been exhausted, that is Buddhahood. If you experience the slightest mental affliction or negative emotions for even 0.001 seconds in the entire year, you have not attained the 8th bhumi (in fact by the 3rd bhumi you should hardly have any of them at all), let alone a Buddha that has exhausted both obscurations (afflictions and knowledge obscurations). But your day to day living should see a tremendous reduction of suffering and mental afflictions in general, even if you are just at the level of stream entry if you are on the Sravaka path, or the 1st bhumi stage if you are on the Mahayana path. So even after you realise anatta and emptiness, there's still a long way to go. But what 99% of people describe as no-self is not even what AtR calls anatman insight, and is not stream entry, but is most likely merely an experience of impersonality or non-doership. See And what some/many people describe as arahant is only what the suttas and AtR consider to be merely stream entry (ala Daniel Ingram's model and definition of arahantship is simply what we consider to be stream entry here).

Also see:

Also, excerpts by Kyle Dixon:

"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013

Kyle has written a very nice account back in 2012 of his own realization: Advice from Kyle Dixon -

“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.

Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.

The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019

“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021


Soh Wei Yu



As John Tan said before, if you still experience even the slightest negative emotions when faced with the worldly winds, then in such case, you have not even lived in non-dual radiance to the "middle level", otherwise whatever happens to you, the eight worldly winds, they won't affect you at all. Even if loved ones depart from your life and so on, the universe collapses, whatever. Therefore if one feels one is still affected even in the slightest (like feeling the slightest tinge of sadness or attachment to anything that happens), then one must increase one's practice. You have to sit and overcome the body to stillness and then to pervasiveness of radiance, and master a skill (method of practice) that can help to develop your meditation (shamatha-vipashyana) and don't think you have reached the ultimate stage of non-meditation. It's a joke, laughable, he said.


Yin Ling


Soh Wei Yu this comment should be a post in itself!


Mara Martins









I'm wondering something related to the "atr levels of enlightenment." To any of those who have attained the 7th level of buddhist enlightenment according to atr, are you free from suffering?

For example, if you arrive later at home today and find your pet/children/wife/husband dead, will you suffer or not? Maybe Soh Wei Yu can reply. 



Mara Martins


As a side not, I’ve read in the ebook Awakening to Reality, written by Soh Wei Yu, the fruition of the atr’s 7th level of enlightenment. For example, it says:

“freedom from any sense of self”

And then it says

“high degree of attenuation of craving, anger, fears, sorrow, attachments, or any afflictive emotions”

High degree of attenuation of attachments? Who has attachments? If you have realized anatta, how do you still have attachments? Who is the “no-self” who has attachments? Attachments are still delusion, it implies that there is someone who clings to something.

Sorrow or afflictive emotions? Isn’t sorrow just a sensation? Why is it labeled as sorrow? Sorrow implies suffering, and a sufferer, a self.

There are more examples, but these should suffice for now.

Looking forward to get clarified on this. Thanks!


Simon Wagner

Mara Martins actually suffering or attachment does not imply a self. the imputation that any phenomena must belong to or be experienced by a self, IS the dream


Neil Kaiser

Simon Wagner I would second this. It's not that suffering does not exist but you see it for what it is, and for that you cannot identify with it.


Soh Wei Yu


Mara Martins on your OP: it depends on your level of attainment. I did write that as you practice, post-anatta, your afflictive emotions will get attenuated, even possibly quite early on. And then, when you reach fetter model Arahantship, or 8th bhumi bodhisattva, all afflictions are permanently ended.

Kyle Dixon just shared this days ago:

I don’t like to talk about myself really but doctrinally you would be referring to the “taming” ('dul ba, damya), which is as my teacher says “the process of obtaining the mental and emotional resilience on a deep level. When one has tamed one's afflictions, even if they are still present in the mind stream, one has reached the level of patience (bzod pa, kṣānti).” This occurs at the 3rd bhūmi, and is characterized by pretty much a total absence of negative emotions like sadness or anger, but with the ability to still feel immense gratitude, joy and happiness in proper contexts.

In my past I would sometimes form healthy attachments to some women and have relationships with them, this is really no issue.

The view of Vajrayāna and ati in general is actually defined as “attachment without clinging” this means we allow our senses to come into contact with their respective objects of sensation without accepting or rejecting. This means that even in the act of sex, the sensations are arising and you are fully with the sensations. If you aren’t in equipoise then you are fully experiencing the sensation, and you can play with how that sensation lacks a subject and object if you understand how that principle is applied in the view. That is the meaning of training in pure vision. Everything is the mandala of the deity, in ati for example, this means everything is innately the mandala of vidyā.


Also he wrote previously, some quotations in AtR guide:

"...The anatta definitely severed many emotional afflictions, for the most part I don't have negative emotions anymore. And either the anatta or the strict shamatha training has resulted in stable shamatha where thoughts have little effect and are diminished by the force of clarity. I'm also able to control them, stopping them for any amount of desired time etc. But I understand that isn't what is important. Can I fully open to whatever arises I would say yes. I understand that every instance of experience is fully appearing to itself as the radiance of clarity, yet timelessly disjointed and unsubstantiated.." - Kyle Dixon, 2013

Someone had the misunderstanding that Kyle Dixon is a “follower” of Soh and John Tan. Soh clarified,

“Kyle Dixon is not a student or follower of mine or John Tan in any way. His realizations happened prior to his encountering us, about eight years ago. He is a dzogchen practitioner and I am not. The fact that our insights coincide is simply a coincidence. There are some others who have had insights triggered by my writings, but Kyle is not one of them. Furthermore, I do not have “students”. I also do not claim “full enlightenment”.” Kyle has written a very nice account back in 2012 of his own realization: Advice from Kyle Dixon -

(Update: Kyle Dixon learns Dzogchen from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and since around 2012 has started learning from Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith. Had the good karma to meet Malcolm and Kyle in California in 2019 [completely coincidental because Malcolm does not live there and just happened to be visiting]. Malcolm said Kyle is the first to totally get his view. Also, in 2020 John Tan and I started attending Malcolm’s Dzogchen teachings which we think is very clear:, . Although I would add, Kyle did say he had learnt things from John Tan and I too. But I would say it is not some sort of formal student-teacher relation. I have learnt many things from Kyle too.)

“The conditions for this subtle identification are not undone until anatta is realized.

Anatta realization is like a massive release of prolonged tension, this is how John put it once at least. Like a tight fist, that has been tight for lifetimes, is suddenly relaxed. There is a great deal of power in the event. The nature of this realization is not often described in traditional settings, I have seen Traga Rinpoche discuss it. Jñāna is very bright and beautiful. That brightness is traditionally the “force” that “burns” the kleśas.

The reservoir of traces and karmic imprints is suddenly purged by this wonderful, violent brightness. After this occurs negative emotions are subdued and for the most part do not manifest anymore. Although this is contingent upon the length of time one maintains that equipoise.” - Kyle Dixon, 2019

“Prajñā “burns” karma, only when in awakened equipoise. Regular meditation does not.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021

“On hand I have this:

The Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra states:

Affecting the mind, kleśa and vāsanā can be destroyed only by a wisdom [prajñā], a certain form of omniscience [sarvajñatā].

There is a lesser form of prajñā that is able to eradicate the kleśas, and then a superior form of prajñā that destroys vāsanās. Only buddhas possess the superior form and have therefore dispelled both the kleśas and vāsanās.

The Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra continues:

There is no difference between the different destructions of the conflicting emotions [kleśaprahāna]. However, the Tathāgatas, arhats and samyaksaṃbuddhas have entirely and definitively cut all the conflicting emotions [kleśa] and the traces that result from them [vāsanānusaṃdhi]. The śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas themselves have not yet definitively cut vāsanānusaṃdhi... these vāsanās are not really kleśas. After having cut the kleśas, the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas still retain a small part of them: semblances of love (attachment) [rāga], hate (aversion) [dveṣa] and ignorance [moha] still function in their body [kāya], speech [vāc] and mind [manas]: this is what is called vāsanānusaṃdhi. In foolish worldly people [bālapṛthagjana], the vāsanās call forth disadvantages [anartha], whereas among the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas they do not. The Buddhas do not have these vāsanānusaṃdhi.” - Kyle Dixon, 2021


Soh Wei Yu



Other quotes from AtR guide:

“Though anatta is a seal [Soh: i.e. a truth that is always already so, pertaining to the nature of mind/experience], it also requires one to arise the insight to feel liberated. When a practitioner realizes the anatta nature of manifestation, at that moment without the sense of observer, there is no negative emotions. There is only vivid sensation of all the arising as presence. When you are angry, it is a split. When you realized its anatta nature, there is just vivid clarity of all the bodily sensations. Even when there is an arising thought of something bad, it dissolves with no involvement in the content [Soh: i.e. mental contents like stories, imagination and conceptualization along with emotional involvement]. To be angry, a 'someone' must come into the content. When there is no involvement of the extra agent, there is only recoiling and self liberations. One should differentiate arising thought from the active involvement of the content a practitioner that realizes anatta is only involved fully in the vivid presence of the action, phenomena but not getting lost in content.” - John Tan, 2009

Also see J Krishnamurti speaking on awareness without a background observer leads to never being angry again:

“Not creating an idea of a self frees us completely from anger. You cannot have anger unless there is a self. There is no boundless and omniscient self somewhere in the sky that created the whole universe, and there is no tangible and limited self that inhabits this bag of skin. All of reality is simply infinite

dharmas that arise and disappear in accord with the laws of karma. There is not one thing standing against another.” - Zen Master John Daido Loori

Krishnamurti on Awareness and the Observer (Extract from Talk 7, Saanen 1976)


Krishnamurti on Awareness and the Observer (Extract from Talk 7, Saanen 1976)

Krishnamurti on Awareness and the Observer (Extract from Talk 7, Saanen 1976)

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Soh Wei Yu


John Tan basically said before, if you have stable momentum [in equipoise], your radiance bright and stable, you will be able to remain calm and stable in spacious openness in the midst of adversities and loss. The momentum in equipoise must be strong, free from all elaborations, no I nor identity, only natural radiance, pellucid, pure and radiance bright. Then 'things' don't affect you due to no sense of identity.

Are you also familiar with the fetter model four paths, because this is important to understand in the context of this topic:

It is important to understand that attaining anatta and insight into dependent origination initially is akin to Buddha's fetter model stream entry (not the Daniel or MCTB system). In Mahayana system, the Mahayana stream entry is the first bhumi out of 10 or 13 or 16. In the Sravaka system, stream entry is followed by sakadagami, anagami and arahant.

Also here is a description of the 3rd stage of the sravaka stages of awakening -- anagami -- one stage before fetter model fourth path [arahantship]:

Excerpt from the AtR guide:

Now, back to discussing MN73: No anagamis or arahants are said to enjoy sensual pleasures, unlike stream enterer and once returners.

An anagami and arahant would have no desires or clinging to a relationship either. An anagami simply asked whether his wifes want to leave and he could arrange it, and didn’t have issues either way. Didn’t felt sad or perturbed that they are leaving either. I read that some anagamis remain as lay persons (in the suttas) as they need to take care of parents and so on.

As someone wrote, “As for lifestyle changes upon abandoning the five fetters, this is what the non-returner Ugga has to say: “I had four young wives. I then went to them and said: ‘Sisters, I have undertaken the training rules with celibacy as the fifth. If you want, you can enjoy wealth right here and do merits, or go back to your own family circle, or inform me if you want me to give you over to another man.’ My eldest wife then said to me: ‘Young sir, give me to such and such a man.’ I sent for that man, and with my left hand I took my wife, with my right hand I took the ceremonial vase, and I gave her to that man. But even while giving away my young wife, I don’t recall that any alteration took place in my mind. This is the third astounding and amazing quality found in me.”


Soh Wei Yu


"Who has attachments? ", "Sorrow implies suffering, and a sufferer, a self."

It is important to understand this:

Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta

“[3:29 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: Thought of how to explain the difference in anatta and advaita nihilism.

[3:40 PM, 6/25/2020] John Tan: When a person in ignorance, why is he so blinded? If there is no I, shouldn't him be already free?

Sentient being: if there is no I in ignorance, then you are therefore free.

Anatta: There is no I in ignorance, you are precisely THAT ignorance, therefore fully and entirely blinded.

What anatta insight is telling us is the "I" and "ignorance" are the same phenomenon. This also tells us that even when in ignorant, there is complete and effortless non-dual experience, anatta is a seal.

[2:52 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: The Beauty of Virtue

Thought is movement between “what is” and “what should be.” Thought is the time to cover that space, and as long as there is division between this and that psychologically, the movement is the time of thought. So thought is time as movement. Is there time as movement, as thought, when there is only observation of “what is”? That is, not observation as the observer and the observed, but only observation without the movement of going beyond “what is.” It is very important for the mind to understand this, because thought can create most marvelous images of what is sacred and holy, which all religions have done. All religions are based on thought. All religions are the organization of thought, in belief, in dogma, in rituals. So unless there is complete understanding of thought as time and movement, the mind cannot possibly go beyond itself.

We are trained, educated, drilled to change “what is” into “what should be,” the ideal, and that takes time. That whole movement of thought to cover the space between “what is” and “what should be” is the time to change “what is” into “what should be”—but the observer is the observed, therefore there is nothing to change, there is only “what is.” The observer doesn’t know what to do with “what is,” therefore he tries various methods to change “what is,” controls “what is,” tries to suppress “what is.” But the observer is the observed: the “what is” is the observer. Anger, jealousy, are also the observer; there isn’t jealousy separate from the observer—both are one. When there is no movement as thought in time to change “what is,” when thought perceives that there is no possibility of changing “what is,” then that which is—“what is”—ceases entirely, because the observer is the observed.

Go into this very deeply and you will see for yourself. It is really quite simple. If I dislike someone, the dislike is not different from the “me” or the “you.” The entity that dislikes is dislike itself; it is not separate. And when thought says, “I must get over my dislike,” then it is movement in time to get over that which actually is, which is created by thought. So the observer—the entity—and the thing called “dislike” are the same. Therefore there is complete immobility. It is not the immobility of being static, it is complete motionlessness and therefore complete silence. So time as movement, time as thought achieving a result, has come totally to an end, and therefore action is instantaneous. So the mind has laid the foundation and is free from disorder; and therefore there is the flowering and the beauty of virtue. In that foundation is the basis of relationship between you and another. In that relationship there is no activity of image; there is only relationship, not one image adjusting itself to the other image. There is only “what is” and not the changing of “what is.” The changing of “what is,” or transforming of “what is,” is the movement of thought in time.

When you have come to that point, the mind and the brain cells also become totally still. The brain which holds memories, experience, knowledge, can and must function in the field of the known. But now that mind, that brain, is free from the activity of time and thought. Then the mind is completely still. All this takes place without effort. All this must take place without any sense of discipline, control, which belong to disorder.

You know, what we are saying is totally different from what the gurus, the “masters,” the Zen philosophers say, because in this there is no authority, there is no following another. If you follow somebody, you are not only destroying yourself but also the other. A religious mind has no authority whatsoever. But it has intelligence and it applies that intelligence. In the world of action there is the authority of the scientist, the doctor, the man who teaches you how to drive, but otherwise there is no authority, there is no guru.

So, if you have gone as deeply as that, then the mind has established order in relationship, and understands the whole complex disorder of our daily lives. Out of the comprehension of that disorder, out of the awareness of it, in which there is no choice, comes the beauty of virtue, which is not cultivated, which is not brought about by thought. That virtue is love, order, and if the mind has established that with deep roots, it is immovable, unchangeable. And then you can inquire into the whole movement of time. Then the mind is completely still. There is no observer, there is no experiencer, there is no thinker.

There are various forms of sensory and extrasensory perception. Clairvoyance, healing, all kinds of things take place, but they are all secondary, and a mind that is really concerned with the discovery of what is truth, what is sacred, will never touch them.

The mind then is free to observe. Then there is that which man has sought through centuries, the unnameable, the timeless. And there is no verbal expression of it. The image that is created by thought completely and utterly ceases because there is no entity that wants to express it in words. Your mind can only discover it, or come upon it, when you have this strange thing called love, compassion, not only for your neighbor, but for the animals, the trees, for everything.

Then such a mind itself becomes sacred.

~ J Krishnamurti, 'This Light in Oneself: True Meditation'

[2:53 PM, 6/27/2020] Soh Wei Yu: reminds me of what you said 'you are the ignorance'

[6:52 AM, 6/28/2020] John Tan: Yes”

p.s. John Tan also said years ago,

Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta


Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta

Difference between "neo advaita nihilism" and Anatta

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Soh Wei Yu


"After this insight, one must also be clear of the way of anatta and the path of practice. Many wrongly conclude that because there is no-self, there is nothing to do and nothing to practice. This is precisely using "self view" to understand "anatta" despite having the insight.

It does not mean because there is no-self, there is nothing to practice; rather it is because there is no self, there is only ignorance and the chain of afflicted activities. Practice therefore is about overcoming ignorance and these chain of afflictive activities. There is no agent but there is attention. Therefore practice is about wisdom, vipassana, mindfulness and concentration. If there is no mastery over these practices, there is no liberation. So one should not bullshit and psycho ourselves into the wrong path of no-practice and waste the invaluable insight of anatta. T

hat said, there is the passive mode of practice of choiceless awareness, but one should not misunderstand it as the "default way" and such practice can hardly be considered "mastery" of anything, much less liberation."

In 2013, Thusness said, "Anapanasati is good. After your insight [into anatta], master a form of technique that can bring you to that the state of anatta without going through a thought process." and on choiceless awareness Thusness further commented, "Nothing wrong with choice. Only problem is choice + awareness. It is that subtle thought, the thought that misapprehend (Soh: falsely imputes/fabricates) the additional "agent"."

“A state of freedom is always a natural state, that is a state of mind free from self/Self. You should familiarize yourself with the taste first. Like doing breathing meditation until there is no-self and left with the inhaling and exhaling... then understand what is meant by releasing.”

Labels: Anatta, John Tan, Karmic Tendencies |


Soh Wei Yu



John Tan:

The logic that since there is no agency, hence no choice to be made is no different from "no sufferer, therefore no suffering".

This is not anatta insight.

What is seen through in anatta is the mistaken view that the conventional structure of "subject action object" represents reality when it is not. Action does not require an agent to initiate it. It is language that creates the confusion that nouns are required to set verbs into motion.

Therefore the action of choosing continues albeit no chooser.

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."

[continued in link]





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Soh Wei Yu


"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found

The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:

Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,

The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen."

No doer of the deeds is found,

No one who ever reaps their fruits,

Empty phenomena roll on,

This view alone is right and true.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,

The maker of this wheel of life,

Empty phenomena roll on,

Dependent on conditions all." Visuddhimagga XIX.

No Self, No Doer, Conditionality


No Self, No Doer, Conditionality

No Self, No Doer, Conditionality

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Soh Wei Yu


"Action does not require an agent to initiate it."

Something I wrote recently:

No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

Xabir = Soh

User avatar

level 1


· 9 hr. ago

Everything isn’t made of awareness, it quite literally is awareness itself. In your direct experience there isn’t anything inside looking out at something. the very thing that you presently think is the “seen” is the ongoing activity of the “seer” or awareness.

3level 2


· just now

I like your answer. Also, I would like to add, awareness is none other than the ongoing activity. It is not the case that awareness is an unchanging substance modulating as everything. 'Awareness' is just like a word like 'weather', a mere name denoting the ongoing dynamic activities of raining wetting sun shining wind blowing lightning strike and so on and on. 'Awareness' has no intrinsic existence of its own than moment to moment manifestation, even if at that moment it is just a mere sense of formless Existence, that too is another 'foreground' non-dual manifestation and not an unchanging background.

Just like there is no lightning besides flash (lightning is flashing -- lightning is just another name for flash and is not the agent behind flash), no wind besides blowing, no water besides flowing, no nouns or agents are needed to initiate verbs. There never was an agent, a seer, or even a seeing, besides colors, never an agent, a hearer, or even a hearing, besides sound. Anatta.

Some excerpts from the 2nd most famous Buddhist masters (right after the Dalai Lama) of our time, the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh :

Excerpts from

some other quotations which Thusness/PasserBy liked from the book --"When we say I know the wind is blowing, we don't think that there is something blowing something else. "Wind' goes with 'blowing'. If there is no blowing, there is no wind. It is the same with knowing. Mind is the knower; the knower is mind. We are talking about knowing in relation to the wind. 'To know' is to know something. Knowing is inseparable from the wind. Wind and knowing are one. We can say, 'Wind,' and that is enough. The presence of wind indicates the presence of knowing, and the presence of the action of blowing'.""..The most universal verb is the verb 'to be'': I am, you are, the mountain is, a river is. The verb 'to be' does not express the dynamic living state of the universe. To express that we must say 'become.' These two verbs can also be used as nouns: 'being", "becoming". But being what? Becoming what? 'Becoming' means 'evolving ceaselessly', and is as universal as the verb "to be." It is not possible to express the "being" of a phenomenon and its "becoming" as if the two were independent. In the case of wind, blowing is the being and the becoming....""In any phenomena, whether psychological, physiological, or physical, there is dynamic movement, life. We can say that this movement, this life, is the universal manifestation, the most commonly recognized action of knowing. We must not regard 'knowing' as something from the outside which comes to breathe life into the universe. It is the life of the universe itself. The dance and the dancer are one."


Comments by Thusness/PasserBy: " a verb, as action, there can be no concept, only experience. Non-dual anatta (no-self) is the experience of subject/Object as verb, as action. There is no mind, only mental activities... ...Source as the passing phenomena... and how non-dual appearance is understood from Dependent Origination perspective."


Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh:"When we say it's raining, we mean that raining is taking place. You don't need someone up above to perform the raining. It's not that there is the rain, and there is the one who causes the rain to fall. In fact, when you say the rain is falling, it's very funny, because if it weren't falling, it wouldn't be rain. In our way of speaking, we're used to having a subject and a verb. That's why we need the word "it" when we say, "it rains." "It" is the subject, the one who makes the rain possible. But, looking deeply, we don't need a "rainer," we just need the rain. Raining and the rain are the same. The formations of birds and the birds are the same -- there's no "self," no boss involved. There's a mental formation called vitarka, "initial thought."

When we use the verb "to think" in English, we need a subject of the verb: I think, you think, he thinks. But, really, you don't need a subject for a thought to be produced. Thinking without a thinker -- it's absolutely possible. To think is to think about something. To perceive is to perceive something. The perceiver and the perceived object that is perceived are one.When Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am," his point was that if I think, there must be an "I" for thinking to be possible. When he made the declaration "I think," he believed that he could demonstrate that the "I" exists. We have the strong habit or believing in a self. But, observing very deeply, we can see that a thought does not need a thinker to be possible. There is no thinker behind the thinking -- there is just the thinking; that's enough. Now, if Mr. Descartes were here, we might ask him, "Monsieur Descartes, you say, 'You think, therefore you are.' But what are you? You are your thinking. Thinking -- that's enough. Thinking manifests without the need of a self behind it."Thinking without a thinker. Feeling without a feeler. What is our anger without our 'self'? This is the object of our meditation. All the fifty-one mental formations take place and manifest without a self behind them arranging for this to appear, and then for that to appear. Our mind consciousness is in the habit of basing itself on the idea of self, on manas.

But we can meditate to be more aware of our store consciousness, where we keep the seeds of all those mental formations that are not currently manifesting in our mind. When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed. This is what we call transformation. In the Buddhist tradition, transformation is possible with deep understanding. The moment the vision of no-self is there, manas, the elusive notion of 'I am,' disintegrates, and we find ourselves enjoying, in this very moment, freedom and happiness."


Labels: Anatta |

No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs


No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

No nouns are necessary to initiate verbs

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Soh Wei Yu


This is also good:

Phagguna Sutta: To Phagguna

Also see: Flawed Mode of Enquiry

SN 12.12

PTS: S ii 13

CDB i 541

Phagguna Sutta: To Phagguna

translated from the Pali by

Nyanaponika Thera

© 2006–2012

Alternate translation: Thanissaro

"There are, O monks, four nutriments for the sustenance of beings born, and for the support of beings seeking birth. What are the four? Edible food, coarse and fine; secondly, sense-impression; thirdly, volitional thought; fourthly, consciousness."

After these words, the venerable Moliya-Phagguna addressed the Exalted One as follows:

"Who, O Lord, consumes[1] the nutriment consciousness?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he consumes.'[2] If I had said so, then the question 'Who consumes?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be: 'For what is the nutriment consciousness (the condition)?'[3] And to that the correct reply is: 'The nutriment consciousness[4] is a condition for the future arising of a renewed existence;[5] when that has come into being, there is (also) the sixfold sense-base; and conditioned by the sixfold sense-base is sense-impression.'"[6]

"Who, O Lord, has a sense-impression?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One.

"I do not say that 'he has a sense-impression.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who has a sense-impression?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of sense-impression?' And to that the correct reply is: 'The sixfold sense-base is a condition of sense-impression, and sense-impression is the condition of feeling.'"

"Who, O Lord, feels?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he feels.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who feels?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of feeling?' And to that the correct reply is: 'sense-impression is the condition of feeling; and feeling is the condition of craving.'"

"Who, O Lord, craves?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One. "I do not say that 'he craves.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who craves?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of craving?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Feeling is the condition of craving, and craving is the condition of clinging.'"

"Who, O Lord, clings?"

"The question is not correct," said the Exalted One, "I do not say that 'he clings.' Had I said so, then the question 'Who clings?' would be appropriate. But since I did not speak thus, the correct way to ask the question will be 'What is the condition of clinging?' And to that the correct reply is: 'Craving is the condition of clinging; and clinging is the condition of the process of becoming.' Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering.[7]

"Through the complete fading away and cessation of even these six bases of sense-impression, sense-impression ceases;[8] through the cessation of sense-impression, feeling ceases; through the cessation of feeling, craving ceases; through the cessation of craving, clinging ceases; through the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases; through the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases; through the cessation of birth, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering."

Phagguna Sutta: To Phagguna


Phagguna Sutta: To Phagguna

Phagguna Sutta: To Phagguna

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Justin Forrest Miles

Sadness is an inescapable human experience and display of our Buddha nature.


Soh Wei Yu


Justin Forrest Miles It is inescapable for unenlightened beings, but for totally liberated beings like Buddha and the arahants (but not necessarily newly awakened like the stream enterers and first bhumi whose afflictions are attenuated but not completely ended), they are totally free.

Salla Sutta: The Arrow

translated from the Pali by

John D. Ireland

© 1994

Alternate translation: Thanissaro

"Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life.

"The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter.

"In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain.

"By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. Therefore, having listened to the arahant,[1] one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief.

"With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana.


Soh Wei Yu


For example, Ananda cried at the thought of Buddha passing into Parinibbana. At that time he was only a stream enterer. However, all the arahant disciples of Buddha did not cry at all. They have transcended sorrow.


Justin Forrest Miles

I hear you and I read the teachings, I just don't know a fully actualized human being who is or should be free from sadness. Its an indicator of human heartedness and not a flaw or weakness.


Justin Forrest Miles

The Buddha was correct about the things he studied and knew, in particular the nature of self, others and objective reality. The things he didn't study or know, he didnt know. I also question the benefit of a world full of Buddhas who don't get sad.



Second noble truth "Clinging is suffering".
A practitioner's understanding.
A friend kindly advised me to "not skip steps" in the buddhadharma and to developed the noble 8 fold paths first..
before talking about awakening. ( I think that what he meant)
...which i cannot relate.
As I am practising almost all the time in my waking moments, I am living the paths all moments.
practise = enlightenment is what Dogen encouraged and I fully know what he meant.
Hence I always go back to the noble truths to check each other's understanding for most of the time it is wherein the problem lies.
I realise,
For traditional explanation/theoretical explanation of the second noble truth - clinging is suffering
It will be explained as - clinging to feelings, sense of self.. yada yada
But have one ever wondered why the Buddha did not tell you directly if it is clinging to feelings if he meant that? Why did he just say clinging ? did we miss sthg?
The Buddha is the clearest, most direct teacher that I have ever know, and he don't speak in riddles, why would he omit half a sentence?
I oft ask myself this. Clinging to WHAT?
How do one even Cling to Self? Who cling to self? you need a Self cling to cling to self! That is not even logical.
It was only after insight that I completely understand. A flash of clear understanding.
An understanding prior to insight is always DISSOCIATIVE.
because that person is seeing from a SELF.
Hence , that person will say
"don't cling to suffering, don't cling to aggregates, don't cling to this, don't cling to that".
But if one is sincere, one is curious, one will know it is impossible to NOT cling to feelings. What do you mean?
Happy but pretend to be not happy?
Sad but try to not feel sadness?
I don't know how to do that!
and the Buddha never teach something that is impossible to do.
one need to contemplate carefully
With insight one will understand CLINGING itself is SELF-ing, it is appropriating.UPADANA.
Selfing the ROOT of all suffering.
If you ask a person with a view of personhood/selfhood, not to cling.
you don't really understand the teaching in an alive way yet and you will give that person more confusion.
It is exactly the SELF = clinging = appropriation.
The problem does not lie in your feelings, nor your 5 aggregates.
They are fine and dandy.
It is that extra imputation of SELF - ing , APPROPRIATE-ing of phenomanas that causes the whole suffering.
So once you understand, you won't ask a person who still sees a self to "LET GO'.
where can she go?
At most one can only dissociate with the situation, and act accordingly so that good karma can be generated.
Karma will still be generated due to a self.
The stain will be there, no choice, but at least good karma for better rebirth until self is seen through.
So methods have to be practised until insight arise.
You will also not advise ppl who have seen through self and emptiness to NOT CLING.
There is no self to do that appropriating.
Now they need strengthen and deepend their realizations
because in a place where no I or no MINE,
there is NO CLINGING.
to root is cut off, the emotional afflictions as the branches will not grow.
but this is a lifetime practise, and they will know clearly what to do.
with insight THIS will is their sole aim - to not generate karma and let old karma wash off by itself
They will see the teachings so clearly, they will not have doubt.
all small bit of self-ing will throw them back into separation and it is actually very obvious and very painful because
their usual xp is blissful and peaceful.
There is a HUGE contrast
They are seeing clearly.
So the noble 8 fold paths need to be tailored to where each practitioner is at,
and only THEY themselves could tell,
of course basic understanding is needed so one could practise
ONE right view now is not another's right view
Right view gets updated with each new insight,
The ultijmate right view is full enlightenment, buddhahood.
and i do not know what is that, yet.
One right mindfulness is also not another one right mindfulness.
There is nothing left but the mind post awakening.
Mindfulness become effortless.
So if one wants to teach
one need to teach from realizations and insights.
from one's own experience.
from an understanding of the conditions of each practitioners.
If one cannot do that, leave it to the Dalai Lama, and the other awakened ppl to teach.
because the path is never dogmatic.
It is alive.

Ng Xin Zhao
Not telling you lah, you're already up there. I meant as advice, teaching tips from the enlightened for the audience of those who are not yet enlightened.
This post is very good!
Some other posts where you just posted the results, without how to get there seems like can generate more frustration. When can I get to the result?
So I requested for more how to get there posts. That is on the noble 8fold path.
Separate point: on what level do you think it's ok to teach the dhamma by unenlightened people? We don't exactly expect Sunday dhamma school teachers to need to be stream winners first before teaching kids and teenagers right?
3rd point: it seems that unless one is enlightened, there cannot be non dogmatic way of teaching the dhamma.
Suttas where the Buddha said we should or shouldn't spread the Dhamma
Suttas where the Buddha said we should or shouldn't spread the Dhamma
Suttas where the Buddha said we should or shouldn't spread the Dhamma
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Yin Ling
I don’t need teaching tips as I am not a teacher and don’t intend to be one 🙂 I am still on the path and need a lot of practise. 🙂 if you project me as a teacher, you have to be responsible of your projections 🙂
I don’t differentiate who is enlightened or not too. Insight is not that black and white. What really is enlightenment?
So what if we are enlightened? Can don’t practise? Cannot right.
So if cannot, makes no difference, why differentiate? Why not just practise ?
I don’t see a “results”. There is no results on the path until one is Buddha. Then there is buddhas practise.
It’s all practise and more practise and one never reach the end, this is my view.
So when one wants to teach others, imo one need to truly ask themselves, can I give this advice to this person? Is this my practise ? Do I have realizations in this? Have I experience what he experience ? Is the Dalai Lama a better teacher to her or him,? Should I point them to other teachers ?
But imo for me, if one doesn’t have much insight yet, life is too short to teach ppl, practise hard.
You don’t know if you will get a second chance at being human. Why busy go teach ppl when sendiri not kao Tim yet?
That’s my personal view hence have turned down teaching requests . Not gonna delude myself when I have only got a few months of insights and go and simply tell ppl what to do lol.
And truly from my experience,
If one is not awakened,
They really cannot imagine what is awakened state because it is so radical.
The self is so powerful. Don’t underestimate it.
Even an awakened person might not be able to teach well and wake ppl up.
That’s why Buddha always say, you have to liberate before you can liberate others. If you haven’t , please go and practise hard. Don’t waste this life. The buddhas teaching is complete.
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  •  Yin Ling wrote,

    “I was a happy child. 

    Had the best of everything. 

    In my early teens life showed me anxiety and stress. Showed me death, illnesses. 

    I didn’t understand why we have to suffer. 

    I have alot of existential angst inside. 

    I don’t understand why do ppl get leukemia and die. 

    I wake up almost everyday with anxiety for many years. I told my friend I am dysthymic (low grade depression). 

    I created a psychological barrier at work so that the cruel fact of life doesn’t come to me. 

    I chose a speciality that keep me away from the cruellest. But. 

    I see ppl hang themselves, and I have to resuscitate them while feeling so painful inside. 

    I have to hold my tears when I break bad news. 

    I see so much darkness. 

    The weight of the world. 

    Sometimes I couldn’t cope and I take a week off just not being at the hospital. I don’t even care for holidays. 

    I thought I was in the wrong profession. 

    I looked around and everyone doesn’t seem disturbed. How strange. 

    Many times I wish My job is to sweep the floor like the janitor in the hospital. 

    But it was all these that made me so disenchanted with cyclic existence. 

    When ppl talk about a better rebirth, I shudder in fear. No I don’t want to come back pls. I don’t want to be a doctor again. I joke about this but I’m serious. 

    This angst pushes me to question everything, to sit, to contemplate, to find a way out. 

    To me, living like that is a joke. 

    I can’t pretend the house is not burning. 

    I have only one thing to solve, I want to solve existence. I don’t know how but I need to do it, like NOW. Not later, NOW. 

    I want liberation from this crazy shit. 

    And man, Ppl who know me know how intense I can get. I was so focus. 

    I took all the energy I practised medicine to seek. 

    A whole year plus of 5-7 hours of sitting meditation without a day off and another 6-8 hours of reading. Thousand of hours a year. 

    I meditate more than a monk. Lol. 

    I was so crazy omg. 

    Then One day life showed me what I need to see. 

    What a cosmic joke. Holy shit. 

    I don’t know if anyone will believe what I see. 

    But I understnd now, we didn’t come here to suffer. It’s all wrong, we are seeing it wrongly. 

    The truth is so clear. Clearer than clear. 

    It’s like suddenly seeing something in a pixelated image. Ohmygod. I will never unsee this. 

    Everything adds up now. 

    Now I can continue with my mundane life. 

    I am not sure why I say this for. 

    I know there will be another anomalous person out there like me, and they need to hear this.  

    There is the truth, and we are not here to suffer. 

    There is liberation. 

    There is 2 parts to the noble truths, 

    Don’t stop at 1 and 2. 

    Look hard at 3 and 4. 

    I can’t show you. I wish I can, I would show everyone. The Buddha would have, he is so compassionate. 

    But when you see it, let me know, I will be so so happy for you. 

    It’s the most important work in my life, and I trust it will be the same for you.”

    William Lim: So how does awakening resolve your suffering, and that of others?

    How does awakening resolve your anxiety? 

    How do you now understand why do ppl get leukemia and die? How do you now see people who hang themselves?

    Yin Ling replied:

    I have never been happier. Experience is v blissful. I wake up very happy, the anxiety all gone. All experiences even sitting in the toilet is blissful. I ask JT recently, is this bliss going to go? He say nope as long as your are in touch with truth. That’s 30-40 years so I like that answer😂

    I think the worldview change affect a lot. When one understnd all is dependently originated, it’s not so easy to blame and get angry. The afflictions drop. Well-being increase. Suffering probably drop from 8 to 1 for me. 

    I’m gonna be torn apart with compassion if I work with leukemia patients again, but now because I don’t see self, I understnd how it is all DO, there’s no one suffering, and my compassion is for that fake person who thinks it’s happening to him. I don’t know how to word. But I don’t ask “why can have leukemia!why?!”

    But I understnd it is causal, but it happens to no one. But there is someone believing it’s happening to him, so the compassion is wanting to show him it’s not like that, but that it very hard. I can’t speak for my own illness and death yet . I still hope life be gentle with me bc my realizations is not deep, I am still gonna suffer. 

    For ppl who hang themselves they wanted to kil the psychological self, the fake self, it wasn’t about the body. I feel a lot for that bc I can see it’s not that way. And I have felt that pain before. But how do you tell someone? The delusion is deep, so there has to be lots of  equanimity j guess . I guess there’s less anger towards what’s happening, more compassion, and more ready to comfort at human level. 

    Any suffering feels stronger with no self bc of loss of boundaries. Hence there’s a need to see emptiness and cultivate equanimity, I hope to this in my job soon. 🙂 thanks for the Q. You always push me to contemplate 🙂 so nice . Haha







      Yin Ling
      Alamak my nonsense 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

      Soh Wei Yu
      … is impt. More ppl need to know whats possible!

    • William Lim
      The Red Pill Dispensery is open for business!

    • Soh Wei Yu
      About john tan 30-40 years:
      Its been around 38 years since he realised I AM, and he realised anatta in 1997 thats about 25 years. And then it took another 2-3 years for him to stabilize the anatta insight and experience in year 2000

      Yin Ling
      Soh Wei Yu that’s incredible.

    • Soh Wei Yu
      Once seen and stabilized its just stable and doesnt wobble. Which alone is something v incredible as daniel ingram also remarked

      Yin Ling
      Soh Wei Yu how would you know what is stabilised?
      How long did it took you ?

    • Soh Wei Yu
      Actually it took even shorter than 2-3 years for me.. but then anatta is not the end and there is then progression into total exertion and emptiness which i said was more gradual
      As for anatta: No more subject-object split or agent-action or self/Self

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    • Yin Ling
      Soh Wei Yu 👍🏻JT told me you were unique haha.

    • Soh Wei Yu
      I cant give you exact date as my memory is murky.
      But i remember a few months down the road from initial anatta breakthrough i already thought it was pretty effortless and stable.
      Until one day i realise this subtle tendency to ground into Here/Now and reference back to mind. Took another deepening of insight into first stanza to dissolve even that subtle tendency. Thats maybe 5 months after initial insight

    • Yin Ling
      Wow 5 months is really fast! Really nice. Coz things are shifting every day seem abit differnt so hard to tell what is a mature insight.

    • Soh Wei Yu
      There is a way to measure actualization of insight. Later i write after dinner

    • Yin Ling
      Soh Wei Yu nice thanks 🙂

    • Soh Wei Yu
      Probably you already know all these but I'll just write as a sharing for others as well.
      Because insight of anatta dissolves huge chunk of self/Self and you're basically naturally so in daily waking experience.. but there is the latent deep tendencies that wouldn't surface or get triggered unless there were specific secondary conditions. So progress is always not just on the surface (that is, the consistent non-dual, centerless and boundless radiance as everything in daily living post-anatta) but also more fundamentally in the release, dissolution and liberation of the latent deep. The way to deepen is always deepening the practice in terms of the view, realization and experience.. also correlated with insight and shamatha. Yogic/energy practice can also help. There are also various kinds of psychotherapy and even shamanic, new age, and other kinds of practice that deal with latent deep and bringing them to the surface (like ways of healing deep seated trauma and so on) and so on which can help... but the way Buddhism deals with them is at a more fundamental level by undercutting the ignorance that fuels afflictions with more wisdom, vipashyana and shamatha. It has nothing to do with suppressing the tendencies when they surface but everything to do with maturing this insight of the empty and luminous nature of everything into all situations and all states so that whenever tendencies arise due to secondary conditions, they can be naturally seen in their true face or true nature and can self-liberate.
      Actually basically what John Tan said 2 days ago in the meeting... not his words as I have no recording but I just paraphrase roughly:
      1) how much you overcome your afflictions and are unperturbed by the ups and downs of life. If some situation triggers the habitual old ways of relating in terms of self and other, I-me-mine, even if momentarily, that is karmic tendencies in action.
      2) How much your wisdom has entered into the three states of not just waking, but dreaming and deep sleep.
      If you haven't already, you will eventually start to experience this equipoise seeping into sleep state.
      Back to myself (Soh) I'll give you a bit of example about the sleep part.
      Firstly, you will also notice you get lesser and lesser dreams with karmic contents. For me after anatta, I never really get nightmares anymore. It is always sweet and blissful and relaxing. But there are still karmic dreams from time to time, which means there is a story to it which are activated by the traces of the mind.
      The next step and this started maybe around 1 or 2 years after my initial anatta breakthrough... you will start to experience that same bliss of nondual clear light / radiance and transparency not only in waking but in deep sleep. At first usually it is more of a dreamless or contentless state, much like the I AM experience. In other words, just pure formless Presence. But incredibly intense and blissful, even more intense than waking experience of it. Then you realise what the Tibetans say that in the sleep and bardo state your clarity is 7 times more than normal is actually quite true, if you can experience that clear light sleep.
      Then later on you start to experience this clear light sleep even when there are subtle contents arising. For example for me I used to have sleep paralysis and when it happens, its always this feeling of doom and a sense of a intruder/monster/ghost there that is watching and causing my being stuck and unable to wake up. After anatta, each time it happens I was able to dissolve into fearless openness and bliss of clear radiance and transparency. I wrote about these in That is how you liberate even these situations in sleep. Because if you don't have anatta insight, you will fall into self-other duality and the 'others' will 'appear as enemy' as the Tibetans put it, and that is samsara. Otherwise with insight and actualization all appearances are self-liberating as just one's empty radiance, one's own state.
      Then when you have dreams, they also start to take on the same, in fact 7 times intensity bliss and clarity of anatta.. like one day you will experience a dream, lets say you are walking down a garden... the same as you are walking down a garden in waking life. And just like in waking life anatta experience is so deeply blissful, radiant, boundless, centerless, transparent and intense... that same quality is experienced in that dream-scene except perhaps much more intense even. That is called clear light dream. That too I started experiencing about 2 years after the anatta breakthrough.
      Nowadays I seldom have memorable dreams or karmic content dreams.. but just by coincidence yesterday I did have one, and at first I noticed this slight contraction tendency but it quickly transformed into one of fearless openness. It was not a lucid dream but I felt super fearless and "come what may, so be it", then I woke up. But the fact that the traces still occur in sleep even if rarely should tell you I am still far from Buddhahood. Also with your earnestness in practice I'm also sure you will progress much faster and further than me so keep it up.
      As you know after anatta you will naturally to want to experience this fearless openness without self/Self/i-me-mine in all situations, people, events, phenomena... where there is no you facing it but the universe is meeting itself in total exertion and liberation.
      The ultimate test is of course death. Can we be liberated. I think Dalai Lama and probably many other masters said my whole practice is a preparation for death. Sort of a trial run.
      A convo between Sim Pern Chong and John Tan in 2007:
      Sim: How to experience it? Don't try to escape to anywhere or wait for some becoming. Stay 'unmoving' to the present even if it is unpleasant... and see what happens...
      John Tan: Even when fainting, when passing out, when death dawns, experience completely, experience experience! 🙂
      Sim: I sincerely hope that I can be that 'zai' at the time of death (grins)
      Fearless Samadhi
      Fearless Samadhi
      Fearless Samadhi

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    • Yin Ling
      Super nice thanks Soh appreciate it loads.
      Definitely an extremely high standard u guys set as an example there. 👍🏻
      Will keep practising.
      Dreams completely stop after Anatta for me for past 4-5 months idk why. Only notice Sleep shortened to 5-6 hours then I automatically wake up without needing to nap. I exercise so I can sleep more😂. I needed 7-8 hours before. Since I’m not tired I just let it be, probably not stress from working too. Apart from that I never notice anything already except sleep like dead 😂

    • Soh Wei Yu
      Yin Ling That is also normal.. also do you still have capacity to visualise anything? Like imagine and have mental pictures.

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      • Yin Ling
        Soh Wei Yu I’m not sure, I just tried visualising sthg, very blurry, then sensations took over , cannot stay focus for long 😂

      • Soh Wei Yu
        Yin Ling Same. After anatta, this faculty of imagination diminishes and for some even disappear completely. Same for dreams. Swapped away by the direct mode of anatta equipoise.

      • Yin Ling
        Soh Wei Yu but I realise don’t daydream anymore. Like I can sit there one hour in the park with v little thoughts, last time I daydream 💭 do this la do that la, now it’s just .. sit there mindlessly 😂

      • Yin Ling
        Soh Wei Yu oh I see. No wonder I don’t recall the past much, don’t think of future. Sometimes I get worried because I never think of my future so I set a time and sit down and make myself think of future 😂😂🤦🏻‍♀️

      • Soh Wei Yu
        Ya.. and what's the fun of daydreaming when you're living in wonderland and paradise already. Even if you can have it back, it wouldn't really interest us. Anything besides this direct mode just no longer appeal.

      • Yin Ling
        Soh Wei Yu ohh I thought it’s bec i do vipassana so much , whenever there is a thought it got catch quite fast so it didn’t have chance to proliferate. The direct mode make sense too, there’s too much sensation so no capacity to create new visuals I thjnk.

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        I have known a few people who lost that imaginative and dream faculty even at the I AM phase

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      • Soh Wei Yu
        What you said also makes sense

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    • Soh Wei Yu
      What you said also makes sense

    • Yin Ling
      Soh Wei Yu you mean they don’t dream anymore?
      I used to have v crazy dreams every night lol in mid stage a year ago. Then suddenly it stops. Maybe 2-3 dreams one is bec energy so Imbalancd I dreamt I got a clot in my head 🤦🏻‍♀️

    • Soh Wei Yu
      Yes don't dream anymore

    • Yin Ling
      Soh Wei Yu does it affect your job etc though ?

    • Soh Wei Yu
      Not really.. my job doesn't really require visualisation or imagination lol. It does require pondering and a lot of problem solving.

    • Soh Wei Yu
      More like solving maths problem (in my case programming) than visualising fine art.

      Soh Wei Yu
      Regarding your point about not just focusing on 1 and 2 noble truths, was just reminded of this because of a common misunderstanding that 1st noble truth means life is suffering.
      Appropriated Aggregates are Suffering
      A common misunderstanding is that Buddha taught "life is suffering". As Alan Smith pointed out, there is often an overemphasis on suffering, but actually in Buddhism, there is only suffering when there is appropriation and clinging. To be clear: Buddha has never said "life is suffering", however, he did teach right from the beginning in his first discourse on the four noble truths that "appropriated aggregates are suffering", and by appropriated I mean tainted with I-making and mine-making.
      In the Pali suttas, clinging and appropriation are not equated with the sheer aggregates ( ), and as Stian mentioned, he thinks aggregates are almost never mentioned in the sense of 'sheer aggregates' in the Pali canon. I think you get glimpses of how are 'sheer aggregates experienced by Buddha/arahants' in scriptures like Bahiya Sutta and Kalaka Sutta. In any case, the appropriation is what causes suffering, and the end of appropriation is the end of suffering.
      In Bahiya Sutta ( ), the end of appropriation is equated to the end of suffering, and it is the definition of Nirvana ( ). The first discourse he taught was on the four noble truths and one of his five students attained stream entry then, and the second discourse ( ) he taught was on anatta and all the five monks became arahants.
      Now when we come to the Mahayana teachings, all aggregates are taught to be primordially pure and luminous. Does this negate the Pali suttas which says appropriated aggregates are suffering? No, it does not, if understood correctly in context.
      Here's some nice clarifications on Dhammawheel:
      badge icon
      Sobhana wrote:
      The Buddha sums up his definition of dukkha with: "aggregates subject to clinging are suffering" (pancu­padanak­khan­dha).
      What is the meaning and what are the implications?"
      "Since "upadana" means "appropriation",
      more accurate translation would be "appropriated aggregates are suffering". This implies that suffering continues as long as the aggregates are appropriated, identified with.
      Best wishes!
      Post by vinasp » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:10 am
      Hi everyone,
      I intend to quote some discourses which speak of the cessation of the clinging aggregates, using the alternative term 'sakkaya.'
      One problem with this term is that every translator seems to use a different word for it.
      Bhikkhu Bodhi uses 'identity', Ven. Thanissaro uses 'identification'.
      However, I first need to show that 'identity' does indeed mean the five aggregates subject to clinging, this is stated in MN 44
      "Lady,'identity, identity' is said. What is called identity by the Blessed One?"
      "Friend Visakha, these five aggregates affected by clinging are called identity by the Blessed One..."
      [Bhikkhu Bodhi, MLDB,- MN 44.2]
      When I looked on suttacentral I found that they were not using BB's translation for MN 44, but the one that they are using is very good, it is by Anandajoti Bhikkhu.
      “ ‘Embodiment, embodiment,’ is said, Noble Lady. What, Noble Lady, is said to be embodiment by the Gracious One?”
      “These five constituents (of mind and body) that provide fuel for attachment, friend Visākha, are said to be embodiment by the Gracious One, as follows:
      the form constituent that provides fuel for attachment, the feelings constituent that provides fuel for attachment, the perceptions constituent that provides fuel for attachment, the (mental) processes constituent that provides fuel for attachment, the consciousness constituent that provides fuel for attachment...." [ - MN 44]
      Clinging is a mistranslation of 'upadana', fuel or nutriment is much better, I prefer 'sustain' because this sustaining is the cause of 'bhava' (becoming or existence), the continuation of the existence of the apparent self.
      “These five constituents (of mind and body) that provide fuel for attachment ..."
      Should be understood as: “These five constituents (of mind and body) that provide fuel for becoming (bhava).."
      See also SN 12.11 where the 'four nutriments' are said to have craving as their source or origin. This is Dependent Origination with the four nutriments replacing clinging (upadana).
      Regards, Vincent.
      “Yes, upadana-khandha means 'object of clinging' ('aggregate of clinging').
      It does not mean a potential object of clinging but it means an object of actual clinging.
      Therefore, a lamp is not an upadanakhandha until there is attachment to the lamp as 'my lamp'.
      It follows the word compound 'upadanakhandha' can be translated as 'aggregates subject to clinging' or 'aggregates of clinging'.
      [11:32 AM, 8/2/2020] John Tan: Tsongkhapa spoke about appropriated aggregates in his lam-rim chen-mo.
      [11:32 AM, 8/2/2020] John Tan: Mmk [Mūlamadhyamakakārikā] also
      Appropriated Aggregates are Suffering
      Appropriated Aggregates are Suffering
      Appropriated Aggregates are Suffering

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      Soh Wei Yu
      Re: The 3 marks of what, exactly?
      Unread post by vinasp » Sun May 21, 2017 11:55 am
      Hi everyone,
      "Bhikkhus, form is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermanent, volitional formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent....." SN 22.12
      “Bhikkhus, form is suffering, feeling is suffering, perception is suffering, volitional formations are suffering, consciousness is suffering....." SN 22.13
      “Bhikkhus, form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, volitional formations are nonself, consciousness is nonself....." SN 22.14
      These may appear to be talking about the five aggregates, but I think that the five clinging aggregates are meant. All three continue in this way:
      "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”
      Clearly, the aggregates mentioned at the start are those of an unliberated individual.
      Another possibility is that 'form is suffering', and the rest, are not meant to be understood as ontological statements, but as how these things should be regarded. This explains 'seeing thus' as what leads to liberation.
      Actual form is experienced, but the 'form aggregate' may mean a habit of regarding form in the wrong way, as permanent, a source of pleasure, and in relation to a self. If so, then the form aggregate will vanish when seen in the right way.
      It seems that the discourses do not always make an explicit distinction between the aggregates and the clinging aggregates.
      Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi, while not entirely rejecting the distinction, follows the Abhidhamma and Commentaries, arguing that the Arahant is still described by clinging aggregates.
      Perhaps we should assume that almost all teaching on the aggregates is about the five clinging aggregates.
      Regards, Vincent.
      A. From MN 44, the Culavedalla Sutta, The Shorter Series of Questions and Answers
      Scene: Householder Visakha has a Q&A with Bukkhuni Dhammadina
      2. “Lady…What is called identity by the Blessed O
      “Friend Visakha, the five aggregates affected by clinging are called identity by the Blessed One; that is, the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the mental formations aggregate affected by clinging, and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging.”
      7. “Lady, how does identity view come to be?”
      “Here, friend Visakha, an untaught person regards …material form as self, or self as possessed of material form…..feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling…. He regards perceptions as self or as self possessed of perceptions…. mental formations as self, or self as possessed of mental formations…. consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness….”
      8. “Lady, how does identity view not come to be?”
      “Here, friend Visakha, a well-taught noble disciple, who has regard for the noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma….does not regard feeling as self or self as of possessed of feeling…. He does not regard perceptions as self or self as possessed of perception….He does not regard material form as self or self as possessed of material form….he does not regard mental formations as self…..does not regard consciousness as self….”
      Also related:
      "The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there." -- Buddha, SN 35.191 (PTS: S IV 162)
      "My son, we are not bound by appearances; we are bound by our clinging to them." - Tilopa to Naropa
      "The five senses arising with their objects are unimpeded radiance.
      What is born from not grasping at objects is the unborn basic state.
      Attachment to appearances may be unceasing but reverse it: meditate naturally settled.
      Empty appearances arising free from the intellect is the path of natural expressions.
      Do not see appearances as problems, let go of clinging.
      There will come a time when you will arrive in the valley of one taste meditation." - Yang Gönpa
      Labels: Anatta, Buddha, Suffering |
      The 3 marks of what, exactly? - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
      The 3 marks of what, exactly? - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
      The 3 marks of what, exactly? - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

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      Yin Ling
      Yes I was just telling someone ytd that when Buddha says
      “Clinging is the cause of suffering”.
      He is talking about the self.
      Clinging = self-ing= appropriating
      It’s not the aggregates that are they problem, it’s the appropriation rather. The selfing.
      Bec usually traditionally will teach clinging to this and that causes suffering. But that kind of teaching is very dissociative and treat the 5 aggregates as problematic
      But Buddha didn’t say that. He just say one word. Clinging . It is us who are trying to simply elaborate without insight. He just say clinging causes suffering!
      Appropriation causes suffering.

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