Showing posts with label Zen Master Tozan Ryokai. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Zen Master Tozan Ryokai. Show all posts
Soh


Chinese Original: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2017/01/precious-mirror-samadhi.html 


English Translation (translation updated: 28/9/2025):

“Jeweled Mirror Samādhi,”

a talk by Teacher Hong in the Cameron Highlands; Gleanings on the Song of the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi, by Zen Master Iida (Japan), rendered into Chinese by Shaozhuo; a Chan retreat in the Cameron Highlands, November 2005, with guidance and dharma instruction from Teacher Hong Wenliang.

 

This time I will introduce to everyone the Song of the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi. “Song” indicates a text cast as prose or verse; “Jeweled Mirror Samādhi” is anuttarā-samyak-saṃbodhi. The Song of the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi was composed by Chan Master Dongshan. Shitou Xiqian wrote the Harmony of Difference and Sameness; these two texts are sister works. This one explains things more fully than the Harmony of Difference and Sameness, though the manner of writing is the same. The present explanation follows the Japanese Master Iida’s rendering. The commentary on the Harmony of Difference and Sameness given previously also adopted Master Iida’s exposition. There are many annotations on the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi; Master Iida’s essay is concise and to the point. Another is by Master Menzan, written at the venerable age of eighty-six. Because time is limited, in this retreat we can only present Master Iida’s explanation. In Sōtō temples these two texts are chanted morning and evening without fail, which shows their importance.

The Jeweled Mirror Samādhi is walls and tiles; it is walking, standing, sitting, and lying down; it is the coming and going of birth and death; it is the rise and fall of suffering and happiness.

“The Jeweled Mirror Samādhi is walls and tiles; it is walking, standing, sitting, and lying down; it is the coming and going of birth and death; it is the rise and fall of suffering and happiness”—this single line states the crux completely. Walls are it; stones are it. Your sneezing, walking, sleeping—every moment of walking, standing, sitting, and lying is the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi. What then remains to be said? What troubles us most is birth and death and their comings and goings: where does the intermediate state go? Are there six destinies of rebirth? Is there a hell? Is there a Pure Land to which one may go? Is there a heaven to ascend to? These questions of the comings and goings of birth and death are crucial, and their answer can be given with a single phrase: “the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi.” Does this seem strange? “The rise and fall of suffering and happiness” includes pain, numbness, itchiness—these are all it. This means there is not some special samādhi into which those who have cultivated may enter while those who have not may not; nor is it that only those of attainment have the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi. No! Whether buddha or ordinary person, sentient or insentient, steamed bun, diamond, singing, walking—all are it. What does this mean?

Seen with a true eye, the whole universe is a single Jeweled Mirror Samādhi. Because it is a single one, there is no seer and nothing seen.

“Seen with a true eye” means without muddled confusion. We often look through colored lenses and then take things to be red, green, white, and so on. To see with a true eye is to add no bias to what we see. The entire universe is a single Jeweled Mirror Samādhi. Precisely because the entire universe is one Jeweled Mirror Samādhi, of course walking, standing, sitting, lying; walls and tiles; the comings and goings of birth and death are all one Jeweled Mirror Samādhi. Because “a single one” is “one piece”—there is just one piece—because “the whole” is a single piece, there is no seer and nothing seen. Your whole body is yourself—could your left foot be me while your right foot is not me? Could the right foot look at the left foot and say it is not you, or the left foot look at the right foot and say it is not you? Could it be like that? The whole of it is oneself. If you step outside and look back, then you divide it. Since the whole of it is one, can it be divided? It cannot. Can water divide into “this water” looking at “that water”? All water is water. Can you take the taste of it?

Ordinarily we look and at once divide into you, I, and he. In truth, when I look at you and you look at him, he, I, and you are one and the same thing, a single jeweled mirror. Hearing this, we get confused: you are you, a stone is a stone, a stone is not me. How can a stone and I be one thing? Do you agree? If a tiger appears right in front of you—am I the tiger? No, right? How could a tiger be me? In the Harmony of Difference and Sameness this is the principle of “interfusion” and “non-interfusion.” “Interfusion” is that the whole universe is one Jeweled Mirror Samādhi; “non-interfusion” points to the other as tiger while I am I—this is non-interfusion. The Harmony of Difference and Sameness emphasizes that in our world our thoughts all take the tiger to be over there about to eat me and I must flee, and so on—each one independent and non-interfusing. Seen with a true eye, originally the whole of it is the manifestation of a single dharma-realm, the dharma-nature. How to accord with it? Rather than explaining doctrine endlessly, better that you simply sit cross-legged. Put simply, that is all. It is not the case that you think, “Ah! That’s it!”—that is merely your conceptual consciousness thinking it is right.

If you take “meeting and understanding” to be a mirror, you will enter hell as swiftly as an arrow. The saying is not to be heard of: mountains and rivers are not seen in a mirror; mountains, rivers, grasses, and trees are the mirror.

Master Kokan said, “Do not set my hands in motion—there is a person like jade. Do not set my feet in motion—the whole body appears as accomplished. Just look, just look.”

The meaning of Master Kokan’s words is that you must not add anything extra; once hands or feet move, it is no longer so. In other words, if you think this out in the realm of discriminating consciousness, you have erred. “At this very moment it is perfectly accomplished”—there is no need to move hands or feet; the whole of it is so. Therefore, in what you see and hear do not imagine that these are what the great mirror-like wisdom manifests, as if a mirror of the dharma-realm and dharma-nature were showing reflections that vary with your karmic conditions and retributions. Explaining it this way is entirely wrong. What you see, hear, touch, and think are all the mirror itself, including you yourself: the whole of it is the mirror. Do not misunderstand this point.

“Lovers in fervent passion, even if sleeping alone, are as if sharing one quilt; the mist disperses and the mountain hides” (a Japanese tanka). This poem has been hard to understand since ancient times. The Way cannot be left even for an instant. Husband and wife were originally one body; sleeping alone does not differ from two sleeping together—it is this intimate. Who would dare be ashamed before the grace of the shared pillow?

Next comes a Japanese tanka. Lovers passionately in love, even sleeping alone, are as if sleeping together. “The mist disperses and the mountain hides”—when the mist disperses, the mountain cannot be seen. Since ancient times this has been hard to understand. How can the mountain hide when the mist has dispersed? One sleeping alone equals two sleeping together—what is this saying? Master Iida explains: “The Way cannot be left even for a moment.” You yourself are it; you yourself divide it. Therefore, seeking the Way, you do not know that you yourself are the Way. If you yourself are the Way, how can you leave it? How can it be divided? Naturally, it cannot be left even for an instant. “Husband and wife were originally one body. Sleeping alone does not differ from two sleeping together. So intimate is it.” This indicates that we ourselves, or the outer stones and tiles, are all the Jeweled Mirror; thus it is this intimate. “Who would dare be ashamed before the grace of the shared pillow?”—are you not the Way?

The mist is self-view. When looking at a mountain, the mountain enters the eye, and the eye becomes the mountain.

“The mist disperses and the mountain hides” requires special attention. With mist one cannot see clearly. The mist is “self-view”: our opinions and views. When we see and hear, at once we add “self-view,” as if mist arises. “The mist is self-view. When looking at a mountain, the mountain enters the eye, and the eye becomes the mountain.” When you look at a mountain, the mountain’s appearance enters the eye. Within the eye there is the mountain’s image now present upon the retina. On the retina the whole image of the mountain appears; the eye is the entire mountain. Whatever you see, the eye becomes what is seen. “Seer and seen are both extinguished.” When things are in accord, is there still a seer and a seen? I see a mountain, a tree, clouds, the sun, the moon. In seeing, the eye becomes a cloud or becomes a mountain. Is there any seer and seen there? The seer and seen arise when you stir a thought, “My eyes see a mountain.” Only when your conceptual consciousness adds this does it appear. In the moment itself, all are appearances; all are images. The eye becomes a flower; the eye becomes a microphone. Is there any seer and seen? Seer and seen are produced when you think and talk. Thus it says, “When looking at a mountain, the mountain enters the eye, and the eye becomes the mountain.”

That seer and seen are both extinguished ought originally to be explained as mutual accommodation; but fearing it might be mistaken for a doctrine of two, it is said that the mountain hides—this is the rationale for “hides.”

Heaven and earth share one root; the myriad things are of one body; nothing is more intimate than “one.” Therefore the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi can also be called great love.

Just sit and see; take up kōans until you are of one piece with them; there will surely be a time you clap your hands and laugh without knowing it.

This principle, said in words, is hard to understand. Therefore: “just sit and see; take up kōans until you are of one piece with them.” Master Iida, somewhat under the influence of the Linji lineage, approves of investigating kōans, unlike Takuan Kōdō or Dōgen, who advocated constantly just sitting; but Master Iida’s point is that when investigating kōans you become one with the kōan. “There will surely be a time you clap your hands and laugh without knowing it.” After endless talk, there is no need to use your wits—just sit and see. Like talking at length about what salty is or sweet is—once you put it in your mouth, you know. Therefore, just sit and see.

The Jeweled Mirror Samādhi is truly the work of Dongshan. On the authorship there have been many conflicting views since ancient times, which risk being overly forced. This is because in the Record of the Thirteen Chapters of Dongshan in the Compendium of Essentials there is the passage: “When the Master took leave of Caoshan, he charged him, saying, ‘At my late master Yunyan’s place I personally sealed the essentials of the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi; now I transmit them to you.’” From this some have taken it to be Yunyan’s work, originating from Yaoshan.

Here, what is called “Jeweled Mirror Samādhi” is not a book title; it points straight to the directly transmitted succession, the “this” of the Treasury of the True Dharma Eye, or the meaning of “accord between teacher and student.”

Master Huiran called this text the Song of the Precious Mirror Samādhi; Master Chuandeng also added the word “Song” to indicate distinction. This song is indeed the samādhi secretly entrusted by the buddhas and patriarchs, set down in writing by Great Master Dongshan. May it be chanted and transmitted without differentiating monks from laypeople, so that all can realize and enter the buddha-way.

“This song harmonizes in metre with the Harmony of Difference and Sameness,” sharing its rhyme. “It elaborates it closely and fully. The intention within differs slightly in scope and brevity,” but in fact the main purport of the two is the great gist that the buddhas wished to transmit. Thus the opening line of the Harmony of Difference and Sameness, “The mind of the great sage of India,” is the “Jeweled Mirror Samādhi,” the “wondrous mind of nirvāṇa” transmitted by the World-Honored One, and the “facing the wall” transmitted by Bodhidharma. The words differ and their presentation differs, but all point to “this.” If “this” were easy to state, it would simply be said openly; but this “this” cannot be put into words, is hard to depict, and cannot be grasped by feeling and sentiment as “Oh! That’s it! A sudden opening.” That is merely a feeling. Therefore it is called difficult—very difficult! And yet it is not difficult, for right now you yourself are it; only you are unwilling to undertake it. If you are willing, is the matter then finished?

If you are willing yet cannot put down the one thought that affirms yourself as right, then from the fault of self-affirmation you fall into the sickness of realization. This sickness of realization is hardest to remove. Nevertheless, the experience of “feeling it is right” must be personally verified; without personal verification it does not count. But this experience is so wondrous and so joyous that old habits rise up and seize it and will not let go. Thus self-affirmation is still a fault—we call this the “fault of permanence.”

This piece still follows the “Yu rhyme”; the rhyme used is that of the state of Yu. “Those who truly hear are few indeed”: those who understand are far too few. Understanding is necessary, lest the direction of practice be mistaken; but understanding is not sufficient—understanding does not mean you are right. “If you first read the Harmony of Difference and Sameness and then this piece, you will naturally discover how the two are subtly and spiritually contiguous”—it is hoped everyone will read this Song of the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi alongside the previous commentary on the Harmony of Difference and Sameness; you will naturally find where the two connect.

When the self is forgotten, nothing is not self. Regard the universe as a single mirror, and then every affair, every thing, without exception, is the mirror itself: when a barbarian comes, a barbarian appears; when a Han comes, a Han appears.

He uses one line to explain: “When the self is forgotten, nothing is not self.” When the self is forgotten, nothing is not oneself. If the self is not forgotten, then you, he, sentient, and insentient are divided. The “self” is erected by deluded thought; the thought “I am I” persists—“I am listening,” “I am practicing the Way”—that “I” needs to be forgotten. If forgotten, can one no longer act? Can one no longer live? One still drinks tea; one still breathes and the heart still beats; one still thinks. Just do not take thinking as the self, and you are right. When thoughts and currents of thought arise, even if you would stop them, you cannot—because they do not belong to you. “When the self is forgotten, nothing is not self”—this comes from Venerable Zeng Zhao’s “The sage has no self and yet nothing is not self.” Shitou Xiqian, reading that line and moved, wrote the Harmony of Difference and Sameness.

When the self is forgotten, there is nothing that is not oneself—do not let this go in one ear and out the other. Turn back and reflect within and taste whether you can glean a little flavor. Even if you have a little, in an instant it is gone; in a kṣaṇa you return to that “I”—this shows how powerful habitual tendencies are. If you try to figure out this habit with reasoning, you cannot; if you try to bow it away, you cannot. What to do? Just sit. This is what the Buddha transmitted: as soon as you sit and set yourself there, the whole universe is you and you are the whole universe, present right now. With the body of an ordinary person you can immediately verify the body of a sage—only this method. Without changing the ordinary body, suddenly become the sacred body. Because you are originally the Jeweled Mirror Samādhi, set there you are the Jeweled Mirror. Do not sit there and occupy yourself with private business—wanting to become a buddha, wanting to eliminate afflictions, wanting to open the two channels of conception and governor. That would be a pity.

“Regard the universe as a single mirror; every affair and thing without exception is the mirror.” This must be thoroughly verified in sitting. It is originally like this—do not think askew. “When a barbarian comes, a barbarian appears; when a Han comes, a Han appears.” Thoughts come—what of it? Thought is the movement of the dharma-realm. Thoughts arise and pass; what the mind thinks are all “when a barbarian comes, a barbarian appears; when a Han comes, a Han appears.” Who says that when sitting, thoughts coming and going are bad? Who says so?

The one that illuminates is the mirror; what is illuminated is also the mirror. There is no “other,” no “self.” There is none that can hate or love. Originally it is one emptiness.

Suddenly it is in front; in an instant it is behind. At first like a maiden; in the end like a fleeing hare. It begins as a great merchant, exhausting luxury; in the end it declines and begs in the lanes, knowing no shame.

You must be able to be the host wherever you are; then, wherever you turn, it can truly be subtle and profound. Abiding settled in your own share is “truly subtle and profound.” Only when non-interfusion is thorough can “wherever you turn be truly subtle and profound.” “The jeweled mirror is oneself, and oneself is the jeweled mirror.” Do not divide into “I am the jeweled mirror” or “I am a reflection appearing in the jeweled mirror”—that is wrong. The jeweled mirror itself is you, and you are the jeweled mirror; all the transformations upon the mirror are yourself—nothing is not self. “‘Precious’ carries the meaning of omnipotent freedom. ‘Jeweled mirror’ is a metaphor; ‘samādhi’ is the dharma.” If we reluctantly divide this song into two parts as jeweled mirror and samādhi, the jeweled mirror is the comparison and samādhi is the dharma. Samādhi is right absorption. What is right absorption? It is not adding one’s own opinions, not adding inexplicable wrong views and biases. Samādhi is right reception. Well then, after speaking so much principle, what is actual practice?

Samādhi is right absorption: honestly receive, become one with conditions, and forget oneself.

“Honestly receive, become one with conditions, and forget oneself”—only this line; everyone should remember it. Jeweled mirror is the metaphor; samādhi is the true teaching; “no self” and “not self”—these are the principles. In actuality? Just now you sit here listening to my teaching. What are your conditions? You hear what I say, and so the mind moves, thinking and judging—these are conditions. Are you one with the conditions? At every moment you are moving your mind: “I hear what you are saying; you say it well, you say it poorly.” At once a “someone” appears and moves there. Have you become one? No. If one has become one, does it mean you do not know what I am saying? Have you no opinions? Are you confused? Is that being one? After hearing, thoughts churn above. You must know: “thinking itself is ultimately non-thinking.” It is “I” that thinks; do not insert that “I,” and you are right. If you do not insert “I,” can you not discriminate what I am saying? Thus “deluded thought is ultimately the dharma-nature.” You say “become one with conditions”—do you then become the sound so that only sound is ringing and you cannot understand anything? Buddhas and great Chan masters do not teach you this.

Suppose you pull the teeth of a thoroughly enlightened Chan master and refuse anesthesia, thinking that feeling no pain is to be one with conditions—does this accord with the principle? Many think practice is like this: “My practice is so advanced that I have teeth pulled without anesthesia.” Really? Even if you merely endure, it is “you” who endure—it is the skill of enduring. “Becoming one with conditions” is “pain is precisely pain”: you will cry out; how could there be no pain? Even if you do not want pain, there will be pain. Could Śākyamuni Buddha have his teeth extracted without anesthesia and feel no pain? If there were no pain, that would be strange indeed.

“Honestly receive, become one with conditions, and forget oneself”—this does not mean that all feeling disappears, that thought does not move, that you do not know what is being said. You clearly know what is being said, but above it there is no discriminating deluded thought called “I.” That is all. Therefore “thought itself is ultimately not deluded thought.” Hence in Yongjia’s Song of Realizing the Way there is the line, “Ignorance is truly the buddha-nature.”

What matters most is, moment by moment, “honestly receive, become one with conditions, and forget oneself.” To be able never to deviate from this is “practice after awakening.” It is not that after great awakening one will never drift or deviate and thus may be careless—no. At all times and everywhere, to be “one with conditions and forget the self” without deviation is to be right. To see clearly that you yourself are the precious mirror is awakening. After awakening, is there still practice? “Practice does not terminate.” This is the place in Sōtō that is hardest for people to understand, causing students to turn and study under Linji or Pure Land. “Awakening has no beginning; practice has no end.” Hearing this, one cannot bear it. “Practice does not end? Then why should I awaken? I thought once awakened there would be nothing more to do—yet I must continue practicing without end? ‘Awakening has no beginning’? Then I will not awaken; originally it is awakening.” At once the mind is muddled. Using intellection to ponder the true dharma taught by the Buddha—this is deadly.

He gives another way to state “becoming one with conditions”: “At the time of death, die equably, with absolutely no thought of prolonging life; therefore there is liberation and ease.” At the end of life, die equably. At such a time have no thought to prolong life—“to live just one more day,” “two more days”—for then there is suffering. This is the principle of being one with conditions; thus there is liberation and ease. Another translation of samādhi is “not receiving,” because there is no reception and no receiver. Because it is the jeweled mirror, there is no relation of agent and object; thus it is called “not receiving.” Samādhi—right absorption—is sometimes translated “not receiving.” Why? “A sweet melon is sweet through its stem; a bitter gourd is bitter down to its root.” Is there any reasoning here? When you eat a bitter gourd, the root is bitter and the leaves are bitter. A sweet melon is entirely sweet. Is there a part here sweet and a part there not sweet, or sweeter here and less sweet there? Is there such a thing? What does this mean? It means there is originally no subject and object. Why? Because all is a single Jeweled Mirror.

Just now everyone heard the bell—it is the end of the session. Ordinarily we think, “I myself heard the bell.” Is it divided? Is there a single jeweled mirror? No. Everywhere it is divided: I am I; the bell sound is the bell sound—this is non-interfusion. Yet because non-interfusion is thorough, therefore there is interfusion. Is the sound resounding here in me, or over there? If it resounds only here, then without a bell it should resound as I please—impossible. The bell must be struck; everyone must be set in motion—only then, with conditions, does it occur.

For example, I look in a mirror. Is there my image in the mirror? There is. Without me, is there an image? There is not. There must be a mirror, and there must be me. Some may say it is the person holding the mirror who produces the image. Then let the one holding the mirror go away and set the mirror down by itself—will that do? Is it the one holding the mirror who produces the image? Is it space in between that produces the image? Who produces the image? It is not the mirror that produces it; it is not the space; it is not the one holding the mirror. Yet without me, it will not do; without the mirror, it will not do; without space, it will not do. Without these, there is no image. Then from where does this image come? See: the mirror and I are independent, but what of the image? In non-interfusion, is there an image? There is no image. If you try to understand this with the head, it is like this. As for actual practice, it is still hoped everyone will sit cross-legged more. Sit and relax the six faculties; let the six faculties be at ease: this is to return to natural law. “Oh, so this is natural law…”—do not add your own opinion again. Set yourself there. Thoughts moving here and there are not moved by you, nor is it you who drives them away; without your driving them away, they go of themselves. When thoughts move, just do not add another “I am thinking,” and that is enough. In his whole preface Master Iida speaks at length to one point: the whole of it is one Jeweled Mirror Samādhi revealing itself; above it there is no you, no I, no she. How does this accord with the realities of life? It is to become one with the scenes and situations you see, hear, and meet—to “become one with conditions.” This is an excellent method of practice for daily life.


Soh

While sharing the seven stages with people with I AM realization in reddit, I find that the teachings of mystic Neville Lancelot Goddard is popular in reddit. Neville teaches people to realize the I AM and use the power of Source/Awareness/Consciousness to manifest one's desires through visualization. 

His teachings reminded me of a conversation with John Tan back in 2006.

"for buddhism, there is a way of seeing the 'actuality' from moment to moment.  It is the path towards enlightenment. :) for some ppl, they have a glimpse of the source but live in the symbolic layer." "bob has dwelled too deep into the symbolic layer and tasted the power of it in relationship to this conventional reality.  It is harder for him to understand the  second stage as stated in the tozan. :)" "Buddha taught the path of living in reality.  The reality is the ultimate reality.  Sentient being deluded with forms and names cannot understand the essence of the  teaching.  This is the only way towards ultimate liberation. It is not about manipulation of a conventional reality. the reality of what bob talk about is the conventional reality. Because they are unable to know the bliss of nirvana, they seek power to control and overcome the conventional reality. Being so, it is difficult for these people to truly understand the teachings. The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power over the conventional reality.  Not for the purpose of enlightenment. :)" - John Tan, 2006


Also see: Tozan Ryokai's Verses on the Five Ranks


Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

....


Session Start: Thursday, August 03, 2006



(11:35 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689

(11:35 PM) (E-mail Address Not Verified) has changed his/her status to Online

(11:36 PM) AEN: Dear Forum,


Xsurf posted: "See deep silence as flow,

See form as emptiness,

See actuality as tendencies,

See solidity as flux."


I like this, but I would say if I were writing this....


"See actuality as potential reality." It is the same, but is using modern terms, and little different twist of the concept involved.


There is a question in all of this that we must ask ourselves. And the question is: "What is more important to us; our reality or the actuality?"


bob

(11:36 PM) John: bob is from where?

(11:36 PM) AEN: simpo

(11:36 PM) AEN: forum

(11:36 PM) John: i mean...he is from which country?

(11:36 PM) John: US?

(11:39 PM) AEN: not sure but not singapore most likely

(11:42 PM) John: bob has dwelled too deep into the symbolic layer and tasted the power of it in relationship to this conventional reality.  It is harder for him to understand the  

second stage as stated in the tozan. :)

(11:43 PM) AEN: oic..

(11:44 PM) AEN: what u mean by dwelled too deeply into the symbolic layer

(11:45 PM) John: psychic deals with the symbolic layer is similar to the tantric practices.

(11:45 PM) AEN: erm can explain ? :P

(11:45 PM) John: why is jhanas not the same as insight meditation?

(11:46 PM) AEN: jhana is a form of absorption, insight meditation is seeing into reality

(11:46 PM) John: seeing reality is not what Buddha taught. :)

(11:47 PM) AEN: huh?

(11:47 PM) AEN: wat u mean

(11:48 PM) John: Buddha taught the path of living in reality.  The reality is the ultimate reality.  Sentient being deluded with forms and names cannot understand the essence of the  

teaching.  This is the only way towards ultimate liberation.

(11:49 PM) John: It is not about manipulation of a conventional reality.

(11:49 PM) John: the reality of what bob talk about is the conventional reality.

(11:50 PM) John: Because they are unable to know the bliss of nirvana, they seek power to control and overcome the conventional reality.

(11:51 PM) John: Being so, it is difficult for these people to truly understand the teachings.

(11:51 PM) AEN: icic

(11:51 PM) AEN: overcome conventional reality by psychic powers?

(11:52 PM) John: The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power over the conventional reality.  Not for the purpose of enlightenment. :)

(11:52 PM) AEN: oic isit

(11:52 PM) AEN: but hmm i tot bob is already to certain extent enlightened?

(11:53 PM) John: i have told u many times about the first stage and the different dimension of the first stage, he is not in the second stage yet.

(11:53 PM) AEN: icic

(11:54 PM) John: u know the different between tozan five degree of enlightenment and the general 3 stages i told u?

(11:54 PM) AEN: The source that is seen is only as a place for them to tap mystical power --> oh so tats wat tao te ching is saying at the end of the 1st verse

(11:54 PM) AEN: as in, its possibility

(11:54 PM) AEN: hmm yea

(11:55 PM) John: yes. :)

(11:55 PM) John: what are the diff?

(11:55 PM) AEN: which one

(11:55 PM) John: what i told u about the 3 stages and tozan 5 stages?

(11:55 PM) AEN: oh sorry

(11:55 PM) AEN: u mean wat are the difference between the two 'sets' of stages

(11:55 PM) John: yeah

(11:56 PM) AEN: u said the 5 stages is more like.. in terms of engaging in activities?

(11:57 PM) John: can u map the 3 stages i told u and tell me the diff?

(11:58 PM) AEN: 1st stage is I AM, 2nd stage is all is emptiness, 3rd stage is abiding presence, self so

(11:59 PM) John: how does tozan 5 degree map to the 3 stages?

(12:02 AM) AEN: 2nd stage in tozan is the "1.5-2.0" in the 3 stages of presence?

(12:04 AM) AEN: u there?

(12:04 AM) AEN: ll

(12:04 AM) AEN: lol

(12:04 AM) John: no..

(12:04 AM) John: they are exactly the same. :)

(12:04 AM) AEN: huh??

(12:04 AM) AEN: what are exactly the same?

(12:04 AM) John: 1-1, 2-2, 3-3

(12:04 AM) AEN: then what about 4 and 5

(12:04 AM) AEN: lol

(12:05 AM) John: lol...u must understand the first 3 stages first. :)

(12:05 AM) AEN: oic

(12:06 AM) John: the first is the "I AM" and is what that most mystic undergo

(12:06 AM) John: it is always sinking back to the source.

(12:06 AM) John: their understanding is not complete

(12:06 AM) AEN: icic

(12:07 AM) John: even they have experience that the source is everything in a meditative stage, they are unable to live in and fully authenticate it moment by moment.

(12:07 AM) AEN: oic

(12:07 AM) John: only one that has thoroughly understand no-self and emptiness is able to do it.

(12:08 AM) John: they see the phenomenon world as source

(12:09 AM) John: the ultimate level of the first stage is the ground of being and seeing everything comes out from it

(12:09 AM) John: even life and death are from it

(12:09 AM) AEN: oic

(12:09 AM) John: these practitioner will also sink back to the source

(12:10 AM) John: because they are unable to see the source whenever and wherever they are.  Though they may say that the source is not lost and is ever present, the actual experience  

isn't there.

(12:11 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:11 AM) John: for one that enters the second stage, realness is at the arising and ceasing, nirvana is samsara.

(12:12 AM) John: the realness is at the phenomenal world.

(12:12 AM) AEN: oic

(12:12 AM) John: there is no need to sink back to the source.  No I is needed.

(12:12 AM) John: This is true enlightenment. :)

(12:12 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:13 AM) John: this is the stage where zen master always tok about just the manifestation.

(12:13 AM) John: and there is no ending to the experience.

(12:13 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:14 AM) John: the third is the self arising.  This is the true self arising as it already undergo the second stage.

(12:14 AM) John: what did the tozan say...

(12:14 AM) AEN: III. The Coming from within the Real:


The Relative within the Absolute [sho-chu-rai]


In this rank, the Mahayana bodhisattva does not remain in the state of attainment that he has realized, but from the midst of the sea of effortlessness he lets his great uncaused compassion  

shine forth. Standing upon the Four Bodhisattva Vows, he lashes forward the Dharma-wheel of " seeking Bodhi above and saving sentient beings below." This is the so-called "coming-from within  

the going-to, the going-to within the coming-from." Moreover, he must know the moment of [the meeting of] the paired opposites, brightness and darkness. Therefore the rank of " The Arrival  

at Mutual Integration " has been set up.



(12:15 AM) John: The Coming from within the Real

(12:15 AM) AEN: icic

(12:16 AM) AEN: which means self arising

(12:16 AM) John: yes...the 'coming' is the self-arising

(12:16 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:16 AM) John: no more 'seeing'

(12:16 AM) AEN: oic

(12:17 AM) John: no more apparent within real and real within apparent

(12:17 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:18 AM) John: apparent within real is the ground being that everything pops in and out that i said.  Many taught that this ultimate experience of the first stage is all.

(12:18 AM) John: real within apparent is what no-self and emptiness taught.

(12:18 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:18 AM) John: the 'coming' out of the real is the effortless self arising

(12:19 AM) AEN: icic

(12:19 AM) AEN: then wat about The Arrival at Mutual Integration? lol

(12:20 AM) John: this is the true understanding of the self-arising. :)

(12:20 AM) AEN: 3rd stage not yet true understanding?

(12:20 AM) AEN: or refined understanding?

(12:20 AM) AEN: as in in 4th stage

(12:20 AM) John: only in opposites u see self-arising.

(12:21 AM) John: din u see what i wrote about the un-manifested as the manifestation

(12:21 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:21 AM) John: the stillness as the flow

(12:21 AM) AEN: oh ya

(12:21 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:21 AM) AEN: oh i remember hui neng said something

(12:22 AM) AEN: like, always teach in the other opposite

(12:22 AM) AEN: like if someone say this, u reply with the opposite

(12:22 AM) AEN: something like that

(12:22 AM) John: that is to refine the knowledge...

(12:22 AM) AEN: icic

(12:22 AM) John: hui neng in the first and second stanza are all toking about the source.

(12:23 AM) AEN: which stanza?

(12:23 AM) John: first is the famous one, no dust alight one lah

(12:23 AM) AEN: oic

(12:23 AM) AEN: second?

(12:23 AM) John: the second one is when the 5th patriarch taught him then he said how wonderful.

(12:24 AM) AEN: huh which one :P

(12:24 AM) John: why seek when the source hasn't moved

(12:24 AM) John: why seek when the source is already complete

(12:24 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:24 AM) AEN: hmm cant remember where

(12:24 AM) AEN: second one is 5th patriarch say one?

(12:24 AM) John: i also can't remember

(12:24 AM) AEN: or hui neng say one

(12:24 AM) AEN: icic

(12:24 AM) John: hui neng...

(12:24 AM) AEN: oic

(12:24 AM) John: 5th patriach where got tok like that lah

(12:25 AM) AEN: hahahaah

(12:26 AM) John: the tozan 3 stage onwards is stabilizing only and the importance of vow...

(12:26 AM) AEN: oic

(12:26 AM) John: even when one reaches the 2 and 3 stages, the karmic propensities are still functioning

(12:27 AM) John: why are vows important, one must know the causal causes. :)

(12:27 AM) AEN: what causal causes

(12:27 AM) John: dunno...only buddha knows...lol

(12:27 AM) AEN: har

(12:27 AM) AEN: lol

(12:27 AM) AEN: icic

(12:27 AM) John: still remember i ask u the 4 imponderables

(12:27 AM) AEN: yea

(12:28 AM) John: when one reaches the 3 rd stage, he is only dealing with this pre-conscious karmic propensities

(12:29 AM) John: a normal practitioner will go by self effort.

(12:29 AM) John: not by vows. :)

(12:29 AM) AEN: oic

(12:29 AM) John: vows are not just about compassions

(12:29 AM) AEN: hmm i read ven sheng yen say, only a 8th bhumi bodhisattva no longer need to rely on vows

(12:29 AM) AEN: oic then

(12:29 AM) AEN: cos 8th bhumi immovable

(12:30 AM) John: :)  Not everyone can comment about the vows. :)

(12:30 AM) AEN: oic

(12:31 AM) John: making a vow that is indefinite

(12:31 AM) John: u know the consequences?

(12:31 AM) AEN: what consequence

(12:31 AM) John: who knows the consequences besides the Blessed One. :)

(12:32 AM) AEN: but it will lead one towards buddhahood isnt it

(12:32 AM) John: it is only through faith.

(12:32 AM) AEN: huh

(12:32 AM) AEN: oic

(12:32 AM) AEN: without vows, one may become arhant but not reach buddhahood

(12:32 AM) AEN: i tink

(12:32 AM) John: this is the main diff. :)

(12:33 AM) John: the power of vow is a form of faith for the sage level that

(12:34 AM) John: arahat and pratyeka buddha don't know.

(12:34 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:34 AM) John: so one relies on the faith of the buddha's words.

(12:34 AM) AEN: icic

(12:35 AM) AEN: have u taken any vows then? haha

(12:35 AM) John: hahhaaha have not. :P

(12:35 AM) AEN: icic

(12:36 AM) John: u know the different of a 'pratyeka and arahat' and sentient being making a vow?

(12:36 AM) AEN: what is it?

(12:37 AM) AEN: dunno leh

(12:37 AM) John: lol...cannot tell u. :P

(12:37 AM) AEN: actually i heard teacher chen is also asked by master to 'hui xiao xiang da'.. meaning walk mahayana path

(12:37 AM) AEN: oic why

(12:37 AM) AEN: lol

(12:38 AM) John: hui xiao xiang da?

(12:38 AM) AEN: hold on

(12:39 AM) AEN: ????

(12:39 AM) John: ic. :)

(12:43 AM) John: if one person hasn't attained true understanding and started telling ppl "I AM" is the ultimate way towards liberation, is that good?

(12:43 AM) AEN: nope

(12:43 AM) John: why?

(12:43 AM) AEN: mislead ppl?

(12:45 AM) John: until one truly understand why is non-doing and when pre-conscious karmic propensities is fully understood, i don't want to make comments about vows. :)

(12:46 AM) John: only if it comes from the inner selfless arising of that person and that person must make his/her own decision.

(12:46 AM) John: this is very important.

(12:46 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:47 AM) John: because it is an infinite vow.

(12:47 AM) John: it is a forever commitment. :)

(12:47 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:48 AM) John: it has to come from that person himself.  I normally do not give ppl any advises regarding this. :)

(12:48 AM) AEN: oic

(12:49 AM) AEN: but eventually everyone will reach buddhahood isnt it

(12:49 AM) AEN: even arhants and pratyekabuddhas will reach buddhahood

(12:50 AM) John: after the 3rd stage until all karmic propensities subsides, there is no diff.  When one reaches the 2nd stage, he/she already know what is it all about. :)

(12:50 AM) AEN: u mean vows?

(12:50 AM) John: not vows.

(12:51 AM) AEN: wat is all about

(12:51 AM) John: about the meaning of liberation

(12:51 AM) AEN: icic..

(12:51 AM) AEN: wat u mean by 'there is no diff'

(12:52 AM) John: there is no difference in terms of enlightenment regarding the source.

(12:52 AM) AEN: oic..

(12:52 AM) John: our Buddha's nature remains, nothing can be done at all.

(12:53 AM) John: it is on other matters....hehehe...

(12:53 AM) AEN: oh haha

(12:53 AM) AEN: eh brb

(12:54 AM) AEN: back

(12:54 AM) AEN: on other matters?

(12:56 AM) John: u better sleep...getting late. :)

(12:56 AM) AEN: haha ok

(12:56 AM) John: anyway bob question is quite important for simpo. :)

(12:56 AM) AEN: how come

(12:57 AM) John: it depends on which path he wants to walk. :)

(12:57 AM) AEN: why

(12:57 AM) AEN: wat path

(12:58 AM) John: some ppl doesn't want enlightenment and liberation leh

(12:58 AM) AEN: What is more important to us; our reality or the actuality?

(12:58 AM) AEN: so wat wld be ur ans

(12:58 AM) AEN: haha

(12:59 AM) John: for buddhism, there is a way of seeing the 'actuality' from moment to moment.  It is the path towards enlightenment. :)

(1:00 AM) John: for some ppl, they have a glimpse of the source but live in the symbolic layer.

(1:00 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:01 AM) John: sheng and xian, u know what is the diff or not?

(1:01 AM) AEN: wats the diff

(1:02 AM) John: how is xian written in chinese character?

(1:02 AM) AEN: ?

(1:02 AM) John: nope

(1:02 AM) AEN: huh

(1:02 AM) AEN: which one

(1:02 AM) John: xian1

(1:02 AM) AEN: shen xian?

(1:02 AM) John: yeah

(1:03 AM) AEN: ?

(1:03 AM) John: yeah....what does that mean?

(1:03 AM) AEN: xian is immortal?

(1:03 AM) John: human in the mountain. :P

(1:03 AM) John: u think doing what...

(1:03 AM) John: practicing

(1:04 AM) AEN: oic

(1:05 AM) John: as for u, u practice according to ur ren chen and don't get misled.

(1:05 AM) AEN: icic

(1:05 AM) AEN: ok

(1:05 AM) John: bob question let simpo answer. :)

(1:05 AM) John: lol

(1:05 AM) AEN: hahaha

(1:05 AM) AEN: icic

(1:06 AM) AEN: anyway wat different path. one never lead to enlightenment ?

(1:06 AM) John: will lah...just longer...lol

(1:06 AM) AEN: haha.. how come

(1:06 AM) AEN: wat do u mean

(1:06 AM) AEN: so which path is faster?

(1:06 AM) AEN: lol

(1:07 AM) AEN: but bob seems to imply 'actuality' is more important right

(1:07 AM) John: because one is unable to 'see', a lifetime gets wasted. :)

(1:07 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:08 AM) John: bob uses another way to approach the source lah

(1:09 AM) John: ultimately one must go beyond the symbolic layer to come face to face and get authenticated every moment.

(1:09 AM) John: however at the intermediate stage, one might resort to symbols to understand the deeper levels of our consciousness.

(1:09 AM) AEN: icic

(1:09 AM) AEN: by symbols wat exactly u mean

(1:10 AM) John: dreams, science, philosophies, math, religion, psychic....etc

(1:10 AM) John: all these belongs to the symbolic layer

(1:10 AM) John: shamanism

(1:10 AM) AEN: all these can approach source meh?

(1:11 AM) John: psychic goes deeper into the deeper layer

(1:11 AM) John: of course

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:11 AM) John: but they will not reach it. :P

(1:11 AM) AEN: reach the source?

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic

(1:11 AM) AEN: bob and simpo practises dream interpretation, and stuff like that

(1:11 AM) AEN: is tat wat u're saying?

(1:11 AM) John: they will come to a point like a raft

(1:11 AM) AEN: oic

(1:12 AM) John: not only that

(1:12 AM) John: reiki

(1:12 AM) AEN: reiki is just a healing practise rite

(1:12 AM) John: visualization...concentration...etc

(1:12 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:12 AM) John: all is to touch the source.

(1:12 AM) AEN: oic

(1:12 AM) John: u think reiki never understand anything about God can heal ah

(1:13 AM) AEN: haha dunnu leh

(1:13 AM) AEN: but seem like anyone can practise reiki?

(1:13 AM) AEN: maybe i wrong

(1:13 AM) John: yeah...it is the sensing of the energy...

(1:14 AM) John: when one understand the consciousness and just the level of no-self, he will know what is meant by qi and reiki

(1:14 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:14 AM) AEN: but i tot qi is accessible to non enlightened ppl? like by practising qigong and stuff like that

(1:15 AM) AEN: hmm even eckhart tolle talk about Qi and stuff

(1:15 AM) John: enlightenment is about understanding no-self and emptiness

(1:15 AM) AEN: he says it is something that connects the unmanifested and the manifested world

(1:15 AM) John: not about tapping energy from the source, told u liao.

(1:15 AM) AEN: oic

(1:17 AM) John: precisely...in no-self, there is just movement, that is the sensation of qi without awakening of prajna wisdom.

(1:17 AM) AEN: oic..

(1:18 AM) John: just like one suddenly enter into a thoughtless state, instead of coming to the awareness that it is the key towards understand our buddha's nature

(1:19 AM) John: one experience some other stuff in a thoughtless state and go the other way.

(1:19 AM) AEN: oic...

(1:19 AM) John: go sleep. :)

(1:19 AM) AEN: haha ok

(1:19 AM) AEN: gd nite

(1:19 AM) John: nite


Session Start: Sunday, August 06, 2006


(12:33 PM) John: anyway u know about the "AMness is God" that i write?

(12:33 PM) AEN: yea i saw

(12:33 PM) AEN: what about it

(12:33 PM) John: that is exactly the "apparent in the real"

(12:33 PM) AEN: icic

(12:33 PM) AEN: ya i remember

(12:33 PM) John: more elaborate description.  

(12:33 PM) AEN: oic

(12:34 PM) John: but casino say i missed something remember...i say unless he can tell me what is no-self and emptiness.  

(12:34 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:34 PM) AEN: yea

(12:34 PM) John: lol

(12:35 PM) John: but casino is still maybe 0.25...so don't know the profound teaching of no-self and emptiness...therefore talking about the one mind is dangerous.

(12:35 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:35 PM) AEN: why do u tink casino no longer post?

(12:35 PM) AEN: away or busy?

(12:35 PM) John: most ppl just see the mind as invisible agent.

(12:35 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:35 PM) John: lol...away so affect ur rating?

(12:35 PM) AEN: eh btw longchen today pm me, after i pm him some dzogchen links

(12:35 PM) John:  

(12:35 PM) AEN:


Thanks for the link.


For the time being, i think i will stay clear of esoteric practices. Stabilizing in presence is more important. Smile


Actually, realising that 'sense of self is not the doer' will lead one into a state of going with the flow. This going with the flow will lead one into the present moment. However, to be in it most of the time is not easy and takes much courage especially under stressful condition. Under stressful condition thinking mind takes over completely and see the matter at hand as being very important...grasping.


will have a long way to go before stabilizing in presence more fully. This itself is the Dzogchen practice of trekchod.


regards


simpo

(12:35 PM) AEN: no la just wondering

(12:35 PM) AEN: hehe

(12:36 PM) AEN: not too concerned about ratings la.. EH this month i tink will high rating but very troublesome, all the atheist attacking their forum

(12:36 PM) AEN: lol

(12:37 PM) John: lol

(12:37 PM) John: where did u get the simpo reply

(12:38 PM) AEN: by PM

(12:38 PM) John: ic...u wrote to him in pm?

(12:38 PM) John: regarding bob?

(12:38 PM) John: lol

(12:38 PM) AEN: no no

(12:38 PM) AEN: regarding namkhai norbu's internet transmission of dzogchen

(12:38 PM) AEN: i gave him some links

(12:39 PM) John: ic.  

(12:40 PM) John: why Dzogchen practice, what he experience is already Dzogchen.

(12:40 PM) John: There is nothing else.

(12:40 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:41 PM) John: yeah...but he knows

(12:41 PM) John: will have a long way to go before stabilizing in presence more fully. This itself is the Dzogchen practice of trekchod.

(12:41 PM) AEN: hehe

(12:41 PM) AEN: icic

(12:43 PM) John: the complete losing of the self is very important, the imageless when clear will lead to the next stage.  

(12:44 PM) AEN: oic..

(12:46 PM) AEN: actually they're wrong to say pratyekabuddha is only The Apparent within the Real rite?

(12:46 PM) AEN: lol

(12:46 PM) John: yes yes yes...very good.  

(12:46 PM) AEN: haha

(12:46 PM) John: this is what i want to say.  

(12:46 PM) John: under estimate the pratyeka buddha.  

(12:46 PM) John: lol

(12:46 PM) AEN: lol

(12:47 PM) AEN: so u going to comment in ur post?

(12:47 PM) John: nope...

(12:48 PM) John: if pratyeka buddha is at the first stage, they know not a single trace of nirvana.  

(12:49 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:49 PM) AEN: icic

(12:50 PM) AEN: i tink their definition of pratyekabuddha is probably 'mystics who never heard the buddha'

(12:50 PM) AEN: hahaha

(12:51 PM) John: possible...but the term arhats and pratyekabuddha....i think the e-book, the forest monk that cry also know the importance of anatta (comments by Soh: more on One Mind and nondual, not yet anatta)

(12:51 PM) John: remember he has been pondering why his master said "apparent in the real" is a great danger?

(12:51 PM) AEN: hmm theravada the anatta is very important isnt it?

(12:51 PM) AEN: oic yea

(12:51 PM) AEN: i remember

(12:52 PM) John: all ppl that has true experience and undergone that stage knows its danger and therefore refuse to tok about 'self'

(12:52 PM) AEN: oic

(12:52 PM) John: so no-self and emptiness

(12:52 PM) AEN: icic

(12:52 PM) John: i do not want to tok about One Mind.

(12:52 PM) AEN: one mind = self?

(12:53 PM) John: no...but mistaken to be so.

(12:53 PM) AEN: icic

(12:53 PM) John: there is no attributes that is self like

(12:53 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:53 PM) John: why do we call it self?

(12:53 PM) John: because of its luminosity?

(12:53 PM) John: what about the emptiness nature?

(12:53 PM) John: blind to the emptiness nature, we grasped and hold on to views

(12:54 PM) AEN: icic..

(12:56 PM) John: got to go.  

(12:57 PM) AEN: ok cya



Session Start: Monday, August 07, 2006

(5:33 PM) John: There is a chapter in the "A New Earth" where Eckhart Tolle mentioned about, touching a cup or anything, be without thoughts and not naming anything, then senses it...did u  
read about that?

(5:37 PM) John: i read in borders the other day.
(5:37 PM) AEN: o icic
(5:37 PM) AEN: y wat about tat
(5:38 PM) John: That to me is a really important chapter. :)
(5:38 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:38 PM) John: the description is pretty good...
(5:38 PM) AEN: icic
(5:41 PM) John: http://www.plotinus.com/ego_subjectivity.htm
(5:41 PM) AEN: eh how u got that plotinus link??
(5:41 PM) John: bob and dianah i think participated in this forum.
(5:41 PM) AEN: oh yes
(5:41 PM) John: i think.
(5:41 PM) AEN: simpo sent u?
(5:41 PM) John: nope
(5:41 PM) AEN: yes its link to this website
(5:41 PM) AEN: but i wonder where the forum is
(5:41 PM) John: it is about pure subjectivity and no-self
(5:41 PM) AEN: oh then how u found that website
(5:42 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:42 PM) John: vedanta and pure subjectivity is pretty close to buddhism.
(5:42 PM) John: read about it...but hehhe...just keep to urself....it is very close to what i told longchen
(5:43 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:43 PM) John: however the explanation isn't clear due to the clarity of experience is still not thorough.
(5:43 PM) AEN: icic
(5:43 PM) AEN: who do u tink wrote this
(5:43 PM) John: a lady...like the mentor of dianah like that. :)
(5:43 PM) AEN: oic
(5:43 PM) AEN: dianah got mentor?
(5:44 PM) John: yeah....but this lady that is the owner of the website has a master that is a mystic and a philosopher...she intro about him.
(5:44 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:45 PM) John: read it, quite good. :)
(5:45 PM) AEN: ok
(5:45 PM) John: and tell me how to go deeper into explaining no-self.
(5:45 PM) John: anyway ur exams coming right?
(5:45 PM) AEN: in a month
(5:47 PM) John: it is quite good...but the key lies in the 'real within the apparent'.  Though the experience is there, still in hoover around the no-self and AMness.  Unable to break  
through.
(5:47 PM) John: it must be stabilize by touching the real within the apparent.
(5:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:48 PM) John: Consciousness must not be realised as a 'thought and mental' process
(5:48 PM) AEN: icic
(5:51 PM) John: It is as real as everything that is experienced.
(5:51 PM) John: nothing cannot be more real than it.
(5:51 PM) John: this realness must be experienced.
(5:52 PM) John: that is, must be in form and formless, visible and invisible aspects of everything.
(5:52 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:58 PM) John: when ppl tok about pure subjectivity, it is easy to assume that they are toking about the 'conceptual' layer.  This is the problem.
(5:58 PM) AEN: oic..
(5:59 PM) AEN: wat u mean talking about conceptual layer
(5:59 PM) John: means symbolic layer.
(5:59 PM) John: using thoughts and images
(6:00 PM) AEN: pure subjectivity as they describe is beyond conceptual/symbolic layer isnt it?
(6:01 PM) John: yes
(6:01 PM) John: Shen Hui a Zen Master says: “It is the absence of the absence of subject and object as phenomena that is the ultimate Truth that awakens.” And Ramesh Balsekar continues by 
adding: “there is only a subjective happening, never an action done by any entity.”
(6:01 PM) John: this is really good...
(6:01 PM) AEN: oic
(6:02 PM) John: longchen will now hoover at this level.  Hopefully he can pass this stage 3 yrs later.
(6:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:02 PM) AEN: next stage is wat
(6:03 PM) AEN: emptiness?
(6:03 PM) John: i wrote to him to focus on the realness of the phenomenal world
(6:03 PM) AEN: oic
(6:03 PM) John: emptiness is a raft...
(6:04 PM) John: it is to give and point us a direction to intuitively understand the most puzzling and ungraspable nature of consciousness
(6:05 PM) John: without going through this level of understanding, consciousness that is understood still remain in the form of "AMness".  A transcendental experience clouded with karmic  
'self' propensities.
(6:05 PM) John: there is no true understanding.
(6:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:05 PM) AEN: is longchen still at the 'amness' stage
(6:05 PM) John: actually there is nothing wrong with "AMness"
(6:06 PM) John: a mystic can treat what Buddha taught as the ultimate experience of "AMness"
(6:06 PM) John: it just transformed to Thusness.
(6:06 PM) John: hehehe
(6:06 PM) AEN: oic.. haha
(6:09 PM) John: if longchen can stabilize in 3 yrs time, he will be able to enter incredible bliss at will.
(6:09 PM) AEN: wat incredible bliss
(6:10 PM) John: beyond description
(6:10 PM) AEN: oic
(6:10 PM) John: not a form of mundane samadhi
(6:10 PM) AEN: icic
(6:10 PM) John: i have already wrote to him...told him not to be despaired. :)
(6:11 PM) AEN: despaired by what
(6:12 PM) John: because he will have to struggle with the conceptual layer for now and when he go deeper, he will not understand what is he going to experience
 (6:12 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
i feel sad again .
AEN says:
oic why
Leonard says:
because of life ...
AEN says:
what happen
Leonard says:
i wonder if it is my karma to be born so poor....and not rising .
AEN says:
it is by karma but nothing is fixed
Leonard says:
i tried to do more good deeds - but everything is still quite bad.
Leonard says:
i tried to take things easy but still am in a very sad state.
AEN says:
oic..
Leonard says:
how about u ?
AEN says:
but contentment is the greatest wealth.. u can learn from the monks..
Leonard says:
i feel i am in a non-compassion state ...
AEN says:
oic
Leonard says:
no compassion for me resides in this world...
(6:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:12 PM) AEN: actually wat u mean by struggle with conceptual layer
(6:13 PM) John: it is difficult to explain to u now...after ur exams.
(6:13 PM) AEN: haha ok
(6:14 PM) John: compassion is for the herds, understand u just simply exist.  That is enough for now.
(6:15 PM) AEN: icic
(6:15 PM) John: tell him that. :)
(6:15 PM) AEN: ok
(6:15 PM) John: rest his mind first....this is his current stage.
(6:15 PM) AEN: icic
(6:16 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
u know what ... i somehow think its all a lie ...isnt it ? Sleep is best isnt it ?
(6:16 PM) AEN: lol
(6:16 PM) John: lol...then sleep!
(6:16 PM) AEN: ok haha
(6:17 PM) John: don't laugh but know the danger of not having a qualified master, this can be the case.
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic.. as in become like him
(6:17 PM) AEN: ?
(6:17 PM) John: yeah
(6:17 PM) AEN: oic
(6:17 PM) AEN: then u leh? lol
(6:18 PM) AEN: as in got like that in the past?
(6:18 PM) John: lol...i have go beyond that. :)
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic
(6:18 PM) John: gone
(6:18 PM) John: last time not exactly....i have some guidance
(6:18 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:19 PM) John: but as I progress, i know it is difficult. :)
(6:19 PM) John: initially it doesn't matter really, whether u r hinduism, buddhism or taoism.
(6:19 PM) John: but until a certain level, it is really important.
(6:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:19 PM) AEN: important to ?
(6:20 PM) John: to go into buddhism to understand its teaching
(6:20 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:26 PM) AEN: Leonard says:
life is terribly depressive when u are poor and weak .
(6:29 PM) John: socially conditioned....so we must be able enough to satisfy the physiological needs first.
(6:31 PM) AEN: ok
(6:37 PM) John: when is ur ambition?
(6:39 PM) AEN: u mean what
(6:40 PM) AEN: not exactly sure. probably IT line. hehe
(6:40 PM) John: hah?
(6:40 PM) John: lol
(6:40 PM) AEN: i mean
(6:40 PM) John: very tough...
(6:40 PM) AEN: u mean, what is ur ambition
(6:40 PM) John: yes
(6:40 PM) AEN: icic
(6:40 PM) AEN: how come v tough
(6:42 PM) John: by the time you come out, it will be tough. :)
(6:42 PM) John: for me it is ok..coz i am sort of quite ok now.
(6:42 PM) John: not so much into technology
(6:43 PM) John: does ur family know that u r so into buddhism?
(6:44 PM) AEN: dunno
(6:44 PM) AEN: lol
(6:44 PM) AEN: shld b
(6:44 PM) AEN: be
(6:44 PM) John: lol
(6:44 PM) John: how is ur result?
(6:44 PM) AEN: exams?
(6:45 PM) John: hmm....academic achievement
(6:45 PM) AEN: not so gd for mid year
(6:45 PM) John: lol...kok ur head....
(6:45 PM) AEN: lol
(6:46 PM) John: just go for the basic needs and do not deviate from dharma. :)
(6:46 PM) John: don't waste this life.
(6:46 PM) AEN: ok
(6:46 PM) AEN: basic needs?
(6:46 PM) AEN: as in?
(6:47 PM) John: means no need to go for multimillion dollars strife. :P
(6:47 PM) AEN: hahaha
(6:47 PM) AEN: ok
(6:47 PM) John: go for few thousands per month can liao.
(6:47 PM) AEN: icic
(6:49 PM) John: earthing82 is not a theravadin right?
(6:49 PM) John: earthing82 is now a theravadin right?
(6:49 PM) AEN: yea
(6:49 PM) AEN: u know he used to be from ren cheng?
(6:49 PM) AEN: brb
(6:54 PM) AEN: back
(6:55 PM) AEN: earthling82 is now more to theravadin but i tink open to all traditions
(6:55 PM) AEN: have u read the thread where he commented about ren cheng
(6:55 PM) John: nope
(6:55 PM) AEN: actually he left ren cheng bcos of certain misunderstandings with the guy who wrote the essay i sent u
(6:55 PM) AEN: icic
(6:55 PM) John: ic
(6:56 PM) John: misunderstanding then leave?
(6:56 PM) AEN: and maybe some other issues not too sure
(6:56 PM) John: ic
(6:56 PM) AEN: but theres alot of misunderstanding between them
(6:57 PM) John: ic
(6:57 PM) John: not to be too involved in such activities.
(6:57 PM) AEN: but he's not from my side.. so i also dunno much.
(6:57 PM) AEN: kk
(6:57 PM) John: how much sites are there in ren cheng?
(6:58 PM) AEN: mainly 3, but i tink 5 centers... one is the nuns side, the other is li zhu lao shi side (my teacher), and the other is another english dharma teacher's side
(6:58 PM) AEN: (the latter 2 are lay teacherS)
(6:58 PM) John: ic...appointed by ur shi fu?
(6:58 PM) AEN: ya
(6:59 PM) John: when ur shi fu passed away?
(6:59 PM) AEN: 1996
(6:59 PM) John: oh...
(6:59 PM) John: in samsara, everything is going through a process of disintegration.
(7:00 PM) AEN: i heard he intended to die at 92, but bcos of so much problems he had to 'take on' certain karma from his disciples.. he died at 78. anyway 10th anniversary taking place a month later but i tink i cant attend.. exams
(7:00 PM) John: ic.
(7:01 PM) John: how do u know whether dharma is the correct path or not?
(7:01 PM) AEN: wat do u mean
(7:01 PM) AEN: oh
(7:01 PM) AEN: hmm..
(7:01 PM) AEN: i tink the only sure way is through own experience
(7:01 PM) AEN: ?
(7:01 PM) John: :)
(7:01 PM) John: lol
(7:02 PM) John: first take faith...then practice with authentication.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic
(7:03 PM) John: actually it is important to experience the "I AMness"
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:04 PM) John: i find that people having such experiences have more profound understanding of the teaching of Buddha if they are able to humble themselves down.
(7:04 PM) AEN: oic
(7:04 PM) John: Because these are the people that are in the best position to tell if they go beyond that stage...
(7:04 PM) John: it is a natural progression.
(7:04 PM) John: and Buddha I would say knows this problem and is one that has gone through similar process.
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:10 PM) AEN: did u talk to truth?
(7:10 PM) John: nope...next month. :)
(7:10 PM) John: why?
(7:10 PM) AEN: orh just wondering.. u said u wld talk to him
(7:10 PM) John: after i settle some of my stuff.
(7:10 PM) John: :)
(7:10 PM) AEN: icic
(7:11 PM) John: just want him to get back to dharma. :)
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic.. u guess he not on path now? lol
(7:11 PM) John: he should be back now....but needs to be stronger. :)
(7:11 PM) AEN: oic
(7:12 PM) John: it would be a waste.
(7:12 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:23 PM) John: wah...eckhart now become like a world teacher.
(7:23 PM) AEN: haha y?
(7:23 PM) AEN: yea true
(7:24 PM) AEN: his books are v popular... wonder how come
(7:24 PM) AEN: but also nice to read la
(7:25 PM) John: writing from personal experience and very inspirational. :)
(7:25 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:27 PM) AEN: gtg.. cya
(7:27 PM) John: cya


before that:



Session Start: Wednesday, August 02, 2006

(6:44 PM) John: a sincere monk is mostly better than a lay....progress faster. :)
(6:45 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:46 PM) John: the site u send me through email is good.
(6:46 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:46 PM) AEN: wat exactly is good?
(6:46 PM) John: very clear about the stage.
(6:47 PM) John: to me...much better than ven sheng yen description of stages.
(6:47 PM) AEN: oic... how come
(6:47 PM) AEN: sheng yen's description not yet complete?
(6:48 PM) John: that is my opinion only lah...u will have to find it out urself. 
(6:48 PM) John: but the tong san one is very very clear.
(6:48 PM) AEN: oic..
(6:49 PM) AEN: but anyway wat do u tink of the author of the site? wanderling
(6:49 PM) AEN: u read tong san works b4?
(6:49 PM) John: nope...i mean the one u send me...
(6:49 PM) AEN: oic
(6:50 PM) John: sorry...heheeh....tung shan...
(6:50 PM) AEN: orh kk
(6:51 PM) John: actually 2-5 is a matter of engaging into activity...
(6:52 PM) AEN: oic as in
(6:52 PM) John: whether one engage into activities and take the vow, the enlightenment remains the same.
(6:52 PM) AEN: icic..
(6:53 PM) AEN: so 1 is already 3rd level presence?
(6:53 PM) AEN: and 2-5 is refining in terms of experience?
(6:53 PM) AEN: or as in engaging into activity
(6:53 PM) John: activity...path is diff
(6:53 PM) AEN: oic
(6:53 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(6:53 PM) AEN: path is diff
(6:54 PM) John: like theravada and mahayana
(6:55 PM) AEN: oh, so u mean the 5 stages is more along mahayana path?
(6:55 PM) AEN: hmm ya true i tink it mentions bodhisattva bhumis
(6:58 PM) John: no one remains the same even for a moment.  After the 2 stage, one will not just remain the same like that even without taking the vow.... still engagement in activities just 
that path is diff.
(6:59 PM) AEN: 2 stage as in tozan's one?
(6:59 PM) John: yeah...
(6:59 PM) AEN: oic
(7:01 PM) John: actually the first stage is like "I AMness"
(7:01 PM) John: until the deepest aspect
(7:01 PM) AEN: yup
(7:01 PM) John: read all my msgs to longchen
(7:02 PM) John: i kept emphasizing the manifestation not the source
(7:02 PM) John: the manifestation is the source, spend not even a moment of thought for the source.
(7:02 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:03 PM) John: the stage is the real within the apparent
(7:03 PM) AEN: oic...
(7:03 PM) AEN: eh
(7:04 PM) John: i think i wrote to u about telling longchen to dissolve the self in the incredible realness of the phenomenon world right?
(7:04 PM) AEN: they never write correctly i tink
(7:04 PM) AEN: icic..
(7:04 PM) AEN: yea
(7:04 PM) AEN: by PM right?
(7:05 PM) John: hm...yeah....i wrote him another pm after he has a glimpse of it.  
(7:05 PM) AEN: oh not sure whether u sent me
(7:05 PM) John: What about the unmanifested is the manifest?
(7:05 PM) John: din send u. :P
(7:05 PM) AEN: oic
(7:05 PM) AEN: manifest is unborn?
(7:05 PM) AEN: all dharmas are unborn
(7:06 PM) John: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unmanifested is the manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal world.
(7:06 PM) John: the last sentence is very important.
(7:06 PM) AEN: o icic
(7:07 PM) John: when is the part i told him about just the happening and spend not even a thought moment for the source?
(7:08 PM) AEN: in the forum?
(7:08 PM) AEN: wat u mean
(7:08 PM) John: yeah
(7:09 PM) AEN: icic
(7:12 PM) John: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be  
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain.
(7:12 PM) John: actually after the 2nd stage...already like that...
(7:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(7:13 PM) John: therefore i might be looking the hairs of a tortoise
(7:13 PM) John: :P
(7:13 PM) AEN: hahahaha
(7:13 PM) John: this is the 4th stage...ahahah
(7:13 PM) AEN: icic
(7:13 PM) John: i m looking for someone that can write about this. :P
(7:14 PM) AEN: about what
(7:14 PM) AEN: The evil ones and the heretics cannot discern him. Even the buddhas and the patriarchs cannot lay their hands upon him. Were anyone to try to indicate his mind, [it would be  
no more there than] the horns of a rabbit or the hairs of a tortoise that have gone beyond the farthest mountain. ?
(7:14 PM) John: actually can't be written lah
(7:14 PM) John: got to meet up.
(7:14 PM) AEN: ?
(7:14 PM) AEN: icic..

(10:13 PM) AEN: there??
(10:13 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689
(10:13 PM) AEN: bob replied
(10:13 PM) AEN: lol
(10:14 PM) John: :)
(10:15 PM) John: If longchen hasn't gone beyond this stage, then he really has to work hard.  But out of respect...hehehe he might not say anything.
(10:16 PM) AEN: what stage?
(10:16 PM) AEN: might not say anything on what
(10:16 PM) John: what bob has said...
(10:16 PM) AEN: oic
(10:17 PM) John: if he still linger in the thought realm, then quite jaliat liao.
(10:17 PM) AEN: but he isnt rite
(10:17 PM) John: no lah
(10:17 PM) AEN: icic
(10:17 PM) John: but now he will still fall back...coz not stabilize yet
(10:17 PM) AEN: but bob is still in the thought realm
(10:17 PM) AEN: oic
(10:19 PM) John: the website like not that eventful. :P
(10:21 PM) AEN: haha yea
(10:21 PM) AEN: one year ago longchen told me
(10:21 PM) AEN: he and some others actually participate in a secret forum
(10:21 PM) AEN: of enlightened ppl
(10:21 PM) AEN: i tink bob, him, dianah, and others all in that forum
(10:21 PM) AEN: maybe that forum more lively but i dunnu where is it
(10:21 PM) AEN: ol
(10:21 PM) AEN: lol
(10:21 PM) John: :)
(10:22 PM) John: longchen knows what he experience is a lil beyond what bob can tell him now...
(10:22 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:23 PM) John: anyway he has to stabilize a lil...
(10:23 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:24 PM) John: stabilization is dependent on one's effort
(10:24 PM) John: and his yuan...
(10:24 PM) AEN: oic..
(10:25 PM) John: whatever i wrote to him is real for i know the consequences of misleading him at this juncture. :)
(10:26 PM) John: i hope he can treasure it. :)
(10:26 PM) AEN: icic..
(10:29 PM) John: by the way, where is the concept when a baby is first born?
(10:35 PM) AEN: concept of ?
(10:35 PM) John: of ur head...when a body is first born, what got concept...:P
(10:35 PM) AEN: a baby is much purer bcos v little concepts, but is still ignorant
(10:35 PM) AEN: haha ya
(11:04 PM) AEN: http://simpo.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=insight&action=display&thread=1154268689
(11:07 PM) John: :)  hehehe....i think out of courtesy. :P
(11:07 PM) AEN: icic
(11:09 PM) John: but i hope he knows the distinction of emptiness before perception and manifestation as a concept. :)
(11:10 PM) John: manifestation is not a form of concept but is the nature of consciousness (that is emptiness) that requires a mind that is before symbols and labels.
(11:10 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:10 PM) John: however he needs to stabilize it because he kept falling back to it even after the glimpse. :)
(11:10 PM) John: he will need 3-4 yrs. :)
(11:10 PM) John: 2-3 years
(11:11 PM) John: coz the seed is already inside. :)
(11:11 PM) John: that is why i din write to him. :P
(11:11 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:11 PM) AEN: din write to him ?
(11:11 PM) AEN: about?
(11:11 PM) John: this period is important for him to go on his own.
(11:11 PM) AEN: oic
(11:12 PM) John: u notice that i always write to him whenever he has doubt and queries?
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:12 PM) John: in forum as long as he has relevant doubt, i always find time to answer him....
(11:12 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:13 PM) John: but after the seed is planted....it will have to let it grow itself through his own effort because in such a juncture, it cannot be in the form of words anymore.
(11:14 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:14 PM) John: when someone ask zen masters what is buddha's nature....its the tile, rocks...
(11:15 PM) AEN: yea
(11:15 PM) John: feel the hardness, jumps...
(11:15 PM) John: it is exactly that
(11:15 PM) John: experience anything...
(11:15 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:15 PM) John: everything...
(11:15 PM) AEN: oic

(11:16 PM) John: i reading thich nhat hanh no death, no fear. 
(11:16 PM) AEN: icic u bought the book ?
(11:16 PM) AEN: which books u bought
(11:16 PM) John: quite good...though the expression not that accurate
(11:16 PM) AEN: on what
(11:19 PM) John: on his understanding
(11:19 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:20 PM) John: but it is not easy for longchen to go beyond the thought level...
(11:20 PM) John: i kept emphasizing this to him...
(11:20 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:21 PM) John: when the 'self' is gone, there can be no thought.
(11:21 PM) John: in whatever tradition, we have to go beyond that.
(11:22 PM) AEN: oic
(11:23 PM) John: however i also know that bob will answer. :)
(11:23 PM) John: and his answer is so.
(11:23 PM) AEN: haha
(11:23 PM) AEN: oic
(11:23 PM) AEN: lol
(11:23 PM) John: :)
(11:37 PM) John: By the way, there are potentialities and tendencies and by taking thoughts, we actualized it.  Actuality is always known, the source is ever unknown.
(11:38 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:39 PM) AEN: wat kind of tendencies
(11:40 PM) John: karma are tendencies, becoming is a form of tendencies, impermanence, emptiness
(11:40 PM) John: if u tell longchen, he will have a glimpse of it. :)
(11:40 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:41 PM) John: but that will set him into thoughts again which is what i don't want.
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:41 PM) AEN: but he will eventually know la
(11:41 PM) John: yeah. :)
(11:41 PM) AEN: icic
(11:42 PM) John: the seeds should now be strong enough
(11:42 PM) John: he must touch it wherever he is.
(11:42 PM) AEN: icic..
(11:49 PM) John: See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux. :)
(11:49 PM) AEN: oic..
(11:50 PM) John: reply to bob. :P
(11:50 PM) John: eheheheh
(11:50 PM) AEN: i reply?
(11:50 PM) AEN: o ok
(11:50 PM) John: but tell him thanks. :)
(11:50 PM) AEN: ok
(11:51 PM) AEN:
Thanks for your reply...

See deep silence as flow,
See form as emptiness,
See actuality as tendencies,
See solidity as flux.
(11:52 PM) AEN: like tat
(11:52 PM) John: yes. :)
(11:52 PM) AEN: okie
(12:15 AM) AEN: gtg.. cya
(12:16 AM) John: cya
(12:16 AM) John: :)




Sim Pern ChongAdmin
Wah.. so long..haha. and quite long ago too 😁 The Plotinus website is by Alice, she is a mystic of the Rosicrucian Order. She is Egyptian, if i remembered correct.
I use to participate in their secure forum.. Dianah and Bob were in the forum as well. For a period of time, many years ago I practiced the method given by Dianah.. That was the 'most psychic oriented' period. Some of the experiences are actually very helpful, especially 'going straight' into the Pre-rebirth Realm.
Together, with the Buddhist Stages of Enlightenment, they provided a larger perspective of the workings.
    Soh Wei Yu
    Author
    Admin
    Sim Pern Chong Can you elaborate on "Some of the experiences are actually very helpful, especially 'going straight' into the Pre-rebirth Realm"
    You mean remembering past lives?
    Sim Pern ChongAdmin
    Soh Wei Yu It is actually not remembering.. it is being in the dimension 'prior' to additional layers/processes are generated to create the in-between/astral and the physical experience.
    Just an analogy.. it is like, there are rooms within room. When the physical experience/sense room is deconstructed, there is a 'slightly bigger' in-between/astral room which is mainly the grosser mind and emotion. For the pre-rebirth experience, the physical senses are fully suspended, following by the mental/emotional 'in-between/astral'. and then with the '2 rooms' temporarily deconstructed/suspended.. the bigger Pre-rebirth realm is experienced. This realm is simply the result of all the experiences of this 'being'. It is not awakened at the time of the experience.. but it also not just a collection data center too.. it is a causal 'dimension'.
    My opinion is that whatever insight there are, got to actually 'penetrate' and turn the 'understanding' in that dimension.. otherwise the old ways of processing will continue... aka rebirth 😆
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  • Yin LingAdmin
    So Long until when I click “continue reading” it cannot load? Lol
    Soh Wei Yu
    Author
    Admin
    Yin Ling strange.. i can read
  • Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
    AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
    Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
    Five Ranks of Tozan commented by John Tan in 2006
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    Yin LingAdmin
    Soh Wei Yu ok thanks!
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