Showing posts with label Rebirth. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Rebirth. Show all posts
Why Overcome Cyclic Rebirths?
Soh

A reader’s question (paraphrased)

A reader writes that much non-dual literature explains māyā with the familiar ocean-and-waves image: each individual life is like a wave or bubble that briefly rises from the ocean of consciousness and then subsides. From that perspective, liberation is often pictured as the bursting of the bubble—the dissolution of the illusion of separateness back into the vast sea.

But, the reader continues, if we truly are the sea, then another wave inevitably forms. The ocean’s nature is to move, surge, and dance; the play of waves is not an error to fix but an expression of what the sea is. Likewise, consciousness naturally manifests as forms and experiences—it plays. This spontaneous līlā (divine play) is not opposed to truth; it is truth in motion.

Both Buddhist and Hindu traditions often motivate practice with the wish to be free from the cycle of birth and death—to stop returning, to stop taking up form, since existence is bound up with suffering. Yet, viewed through non-duality, a question arises: if there is no real separation from the “ocean of being,” how could we ever truly avoid “becoming a wave” again?

If it is the very nature of the sea to move and the nature of consciousness to express itself, then what we call reincarnation or manifestation might be the spontaneous rhythm of the infinite rather than a mistake to escape. From this angle, the reader finds it hard to feel motivated for arduous spiritual practice aimed at liberation—because if the ocean-and-wave metaphor holds, we will simply become a wave again (perhaps not here, but in other realms). So: why practice at all? The reader asks for my view when I have time, and ends with thanks for the resources on Awakening to Reality, which they found immensely helpful.


Soh's Reply:


Thank you for your thoughtful note. From a Buddhist perspective it is critical to give rise to a deep urgency to practice. Below I respond in detail, expanding key points and keeping your references intact.
1) Why overcome cyclic existence?
In the Buddha’s early discourses, saṃsāra is beginningless and saturated with dukkha (unsatisfactoriness/suffering) from top to bottom. Here is what the Buddha taught:
**“Linked Discourses 15.13
Chapter Two
Thirty Mendicants
Near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty mendicants from Pāvā went to the Buddha. All of them lived in the wilderness, ate only almsfood, wore rag robes, and owned just three robes; yet they all still had fetters. They bowed to the Buddha and sat down to one side. The same thirty monks from Pāvā visited the Buddha on another occasion when he was at Sāvatthī, occasioning the allowance for the robe-making ceremony after the rains residence (Kd 7:1.1.1). | Pāvā, a town of the Mallas, was where Mahāvīra died, plunging the Jains into chaos. (The Jains, however, say this was another Pāvā east of Nāḷandā.) Perhaps because of this, Pāvā became associated with especially ascetic monks such as those in this discourse: Mahākassapa heard the news of the Buddha’s passing at Pāvā; and sixty monks from Pāvā allied with monks of “Avanti and the south” arguing for strict Vinaya in the Second Council (Kd 22:1.7.11.1).
Then it occurred to the Buddha, “These thirty mendicants from Pāvā live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, wear rag robes, and own just three robes; yet they all still have fetters. See SN 16.5:2.1 for explanations of these strict observances.Why don’t I teach them the Dhamma in such a way that their minds are freed from defilements by not grasping while sitting in this very seat?”
Then the Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants!”
“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:
“Mendicants, this transmigration has no known beginning. No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving.
What do you think? Which is more: the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating for such a very long time, or the water in the four oceans?”
“As we understand the Buddha’s teaching, the flow of blood we’ve shed when our head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating is more than the water in the four oceans.”
“Good, good, mendicants! It’s good that you understand my teaching like this. The flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off while roaming and transmigrating is indeed more than the water in the four oceans. For a long time you’ve been cows, and the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off as a cow is more than the water in the four oceans. For a long time you’ve been buffalo … sheep … goats … deer … chickens … pigs … For a long time you’ve been bandits, arrested for raiding villages, highway robbery, or adultery. And the flow of blood you’ve shed when your head was chopped off as a bandit is more than the water in the four oceans.
Why is that? This transmigration has no known beginning. … This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.”
That is what the Buddha said. Satisfied, the mendicants approved what the Buddha said. And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the thirty mendicants from Pāvā were freed from defilements by not grasping.”** (SN 15.13). (SuttaCentral)
This sober framing is meant to stir saṁvega—urgency to end the causes of suffering (craving, aversion, and delusion), not to despair.
John Tan, 2006:
“Life is like a passing cloud, when it comes to an end, a hundred years is like yesterday, like a snap of a finger. If it is only about one life, it really doesn’t matter whether we are enlightened. The insight that the Blessed One has is not just about one life; countless lives we suffered, life after life, unending…Such is suffering.
It is not about logic or science and there is really no point arguing in this scientific age. Take steps in practice and experience the truth of Buddha’s words. Of the 3 dharma seals, the truth of ‘suffering’ to me is most difficult to experience in depth.
May all take Buddha’s words seriously.”
(Also See: On "Supernatural Powers" or Siddhis, and Past Lives https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/07/on-supernatural-powers-or-siddhis.html )
Another friend told me after a bout of severe illness, “It was a great experience to develop renunciation.. I’d rather die than get a body which can experience that sort of pain again.” So do not let our present relative comforts or fortunate circumstances (which are impermanent) blind us to the pains of saṃsāra that we have undergone for countless lifetimes and shall undergo again prior to liberation, and the importance for liberation from cyclic rebirth.

Furthermore, yet another awakened friend, Sim Pern Chong, who has recalled plenty of his past lives, shared that "What I find useful about the “words of power” practice I was taught is that it gives the ālaya (or subconscious—however we name it) the green light to bring past imprints into conscious awareness.
This lets me see previously blocked impressions from other lives.
Seeing scenes of murdering and being murdered, wars, and so on has given me the motivation to end these kinds of life experiences.

I also remember a life in which I was a demonic entity hunting a human as prey. I believe some events in my current life—being attacked by a demonic entity—are karmic consequences of that.

Other lifetimes can be completely different from the present one, which people with past-life amnesia can’t easily fathom. Once you actually see this, the motivation to end compulsive rebirth becomes the main priority—at least in my case."


The Buddha also compared the rarity of a human rebirth and meeting the true Dharma to a blind turtle surfacing once every hundred years and by chance placing its neck through the hole of a drifting yoke—vanishingly rare and precious, so don’t waste it (SN 56.48). (SuttaCentral)
He urged us to strive as if one’s head or turban were on fire, and taught the Fire Sermon: our six sense fields are “burning” with greed, hate and delusion—another reason to cool the fires now (SN 35.28). (SuttaCentral)
2) A Mahāyāna difference: freedom from compelled rebirth vs. compassionate manifestation
Buddhism does not posit a single eternal “ocean of consciousness” that must keep waving. What appears does so through dependent arising; when its causes (especially ignorance) cease, the effects cease. Nāgārjuna crystallizes this: “Whatever is dependently arisen, that is explained to be emptiness … and is itself the middle way.” (MMK 24:18). 
Thus, liberation (nirvāṇa) is not annihilation but the ending of afflictive processes—especially “I-making” and “mine-making.” In Mahāyāna, full Buddhahood is described as non-abiding nirvāṇa (apratiṣṭhita-nirvāṇa): no longer compelled by karma to cycle in birth and death, yet able to freely manifest out of compassion to guide beings. This coheres with the trikāya teaching—especially the nirmāṇakāya, the Buddha’s compassionate emanation body. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
From the bodhisattva path perspective, by the eighth bhūmi (the “Immovable”), afflictive obscurations are exhausted; conduct becomes spontaneous, unshakable, and naturally for others’ benefit. Appearance among beings at that level is skillful means—without suffering as ordinary beings do. (lotsawahouse.org)
Prior to the eighth bhūmi, bodhisattvas may “forget” and re-recognize their realization after their next birth (often at a young age); post-eighth, emanations are fully conscious (knowledge of true nature unforgotten) even at conception, when they freely choose to appear. In Mahāyāna and Vajrayana Buddhism, Śākyamuni’s Indian appearance is taken as an emanation of a long-awakened Buddha—consistent with non-abiding nirvāṇa and trikāya. (lotsawahouse.org)
3) Non-duality and anattā (no-self): not annihilationism nor nihilism
As you intuited, “waves” (appearances) keep playing. In Buddhism, the crucial point is how they appear: when there is appropriation (“I as seer, hearer, controller”), dukkha arises; when there is just the seen, just the heard, without a seer/hearer imagined behind it, there is peace. This is the Buddha’s instruction to Bāhiya: “In the seen, just the seen; in the heard, just the heard … just this is the end of suffering” (Ud 1.10). (SuttaCentral)
Years ago I summarized the same point in my own words: nirvāṇa is the cessation of craving, aggression, and delusion—especially the delusion of a perceiver/controller/self/Self. It is not annihilating a real self (none was ever found); it is ending the clinging process. Without this delusion feeding I-me-mine-making, compelled rebirth ends—precisely the thrust of MN 140’s portrait of the “sage at peace … not reborn” after greed, hatred and delusion are “cut off at the root, like a palm stump.” (SuttaCentral)

Excerpt: “In their ignorance, they used to acquire attachments. Those have been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so they are unable to arise in the future. Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of generosity. For this is the ultimate noble generosity, namely, letting go of all attachments.
In their ignorance, they used to be covetous, full of desire and lust. That has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so it’s unable to arise in the future. In their ignorance, they used to be contemptuous, full of ill will and malevolence. That has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so it’s unable to arise in the future. In their ignorance, they used to be ignorant, full of delusion. That has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated so it’s unable to arise in the future. Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of peace. For this is the ultimate noble peace, namely, the pacification of greed, hate, and delusion.
‘Do not neglect wisdom; preserve truth; foster generosity; and train only for peace.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it. This concludes the discussion of the four foundations.
‘Where they stand, the streams of conceiving do not flow. And where the streams of conceiving do not flow, they are called a sage at peace.’ “Streams of conceiving” (maññassavā) is a unique image, allied to the notion that defilements may “stream on to” a person (āsavā assaveyyuṁ, AN 4.195:2.2). That’s what I said, but why did I say it?
These are all forms of conceiving: ‘I am’, ‘I am this’, ‘I will be’, ‘I will not be’, ‘I will have form’, ‘I will be formless’, ‘I will be percipient’, ‘I will be non-percipient’, ‘I will be neither percipient nor non-percipient.’ Conceiving is a disease, a boil, a dart. Having gone beyond all conceiving, one is called a sage at peace. The sage at peace is not reborn, does not grow old, and does not die. They are not shaken, and do not yearn. For they have nothing which would cause them to be reborn. Not being reborn, how could they grow old? Not growing old, how could they die? Not dying, how could they be shaken? Not shaking, for what could they yearn?”
 
Important nuance: In Buddhism, clarity/presence/luminosity is not denied—but it is also not reified as a metaphysical Self or singular substratum. Dependent origination itself is taught as emptiness/the middle way, which undercuts both annihilationism and an eternalistic “Presence” as ultimate substance. 
4) Addressing the Līlā / play concern directly
From a Mahāyāna lens, it’s not that “the ocean must wave again” by compulsion. Rather:
  • Compelled cycling continues so long as ignorance and karma persist; ending their causes ends compelled rebirth (dependent origination).
  • Compassionate play is the Buddha’s free, effortless manifestation—non-abiding in either saṃsāra or static cessation—appearing as needed for beings via nirmāṇakāya. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
So motivation for practice is stronger, not weaker: we practice to end suffering and to gain the capacity to truly help others.
5) What to cultivate concretely
  • Prajñā (wisdom) that sees through both “self” and “things” as inherently existent, purifying the two obscurations—(i) afflictive and (ii) cognitive (subtle grasping at inherent existence)—the twin veils preventing Buddhahood. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
  • Bodhicitta and the pāramitās (generosity, ethics, patience, vigor, concentration, wisdom), walking the ten bhūmis toward effortless, compassionate activity (to and beyond the eighth “Immovable”). (lotsawahouse.org)
6) Mahāyāna view vs. Advaita/“Brahman–Līlā” (plus explicit refutations of “universal consciousness”)
The Hindu/Advaita teaching of Brahman and Līlā differs from the Buddhist insight based on dependent origination and emptiness. In Buddhism, clarity/presence/luminosity is not denied, but we do not posit an ultimate Self, a universal Witness, or an all-embracing single consciousness-substance. Nāgārjuna’s dictum—dependent origination is emptiness; emptiness is the middle way—precludes that reification. (See: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2025/08/the-unfindable-fullness-how-drum.html )
For readers who tend to extrapolate a “Universal Mind,” the following pieces explicitly refute that view and explain why it is a subtle reification that deviates from Buddhadharma:
To echo John Tan’s comments back in year 2004~2006:
  • “Though non-duality is experienced, it is not thorough. He sank back to a source and ding dong in between. Is there Witness without conditions? Are there moments of manifestation without conditions where Witness is experienced? If there is, then it is a game. If not, then know the truth of Dependent Origination. There is a stage 6. The nature of Presence is empty.”
  • “Buddhism is nothing but replacing the ‘Self’ in Hinduism with Condition Arising. Keep the clarity, the presence, the luminosity and eliminate the ultimate ‘Self’, the controller, the supreme. Still you must taste, sense, eat, hear and see Pure Awareness in every authentication. And every authentication is Bliss.” (2004)
  • “The part of stage 5 must be led forward by DO [dependent origination], otherwise one will sink back to a source. Very often, this is the case. So don't underestimate the simple sentence of ‘manifestation is the source’. It is the key to non-duality then lead to DO. It must be DO that lead one out of the source. Then all broken pieces will slowly fall into place. Otherwise, we will have all those funny theories like reality is lila, a game plot of God. That is because causes and conditions is not understood, and how awareness becomes causes and conditions. When luminosity-emptiness is experienced in its total state, then it is dharmakaya. Experiencing the luminosity aspect itself is not enough. It is best not to talk about transcendental body.” (2006)
Read more context here: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/10/buddha-nature-vs-brahman.html . (This piece unpacks the difference between Buddha-nature and Brahman from a dependent-origination/emptiness perspective.)
7) Why practice with great urgency—now
  • Overcoming cyclic existence matters because the Buddha teaches that saṃsāra is only suffering; its beginning is untraceable and its ledger of pain exceeds the waters of the oceans (SN 15.13). Let this stir urgency, not apathy. (SuttaCentral)
  • A conscious emanation of an eighth-bhūmi bodhisattva or a Buddha does not suffer as we do; they freely manifest to guide and liberate—this is non-abiding nirvāṇa and trikāya in action. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
  • Our human birth is precious and rare (the blind turtle simile). We must practice as if our hair were on fire, mindful of death and impermanence, because conditions change swiftly and opportunities vanish. (SuttaCentral)
8) A crisp, one-breath summary (kept for convenience alongside the full exposition above)
Because saṃsāra is suffering, we practice to end its causes—ignorance and clinging. When those cease, compelled rebirth ceases. In Mahāyāna, the fully awakened do not dissolve into a static cessation; from non-abiding nirvāṇa they freely emanate (nirmāṇakāya) to help beings. This is why practice is urgent: our human life is exceedingly rare, the Dharma is available now, and we should train as if our hair were on fire, cultivating prajñā and compassion for the sake of all. (SuttaCentral)
Warmly,
Soh
Notes
  • SN 15.13 (oceans of blood), blind turtle (SN 56.48), Bāhiya (Ud 1.10), and Fire Sermon (SN 35.28) are all explicitly referenced with canonical sources. (SuttaCentral)
  • Non-abiding nirvāṇa and trikāya are grounded with accessible references; the eighth-bhūmi point is anchored in a traditional stages-and-paths resource. (Encyclopedia of Buddhism)
  • The refutations of “universal consciousness” are included with three specific links (ATR 2018/2021/2022). (awakeningtoreality.com) 


----

Reader’s follow-up (paraphrased)

He thanks me for the detailed Buddhist response, then adds that their motivation to practice has been blunted by multiverse ideas (drawn from eternal-inflation cosmology): if countless universes arise, similar events could recur endlessly somewhere, which can make liberation feel moot. Even so, they’re taking the advice seriously—after browsing Awakening to Reality they’ve added new books, intend to strengthen daily practice, and hope to realize the “I AM” stage soon. They note a strong conceptual grasp of non-duality but no experiential realization yet, and admit they struggle with sitting for standard meditation.

They then ask a specific question about soteriology: given the emphasis on the preciousness of human life, urgency, and liberation, which level in Thusness’s Seven Stages would actually count as liberation from saṃsāra and cyclical existence?


Soh's Reply:

Thanks for your thoughtful follow-up. A few direct, do-able pointers and some clarifications about attainments:
Practice: keep it simple and consistent
It’s advisable to do this—(1) sit daily and (2) add self-enquiry:
  1. Daily sitting — settle, quiet the inner talk, and stay. Aim for at least one sustained sit per day (work up to a solid length that’s genuinely challenging yet sustainable for you). Re-read this short piece and follow it to the letter: Quietening the Inner Chatter. (awakeningtoreality.com) It is important to practice this with regularity.
  2. Self-enquiry — add brief periods (during or after the sit) where you turn the light around: Who am I? or Before birth, Who am I? Let the question cut through story and drop you into immediacy of Beingness/Pure Presence; then rest right there. This is exactly how the ATR Practice Guide frames the early phase and its guardrails—work through the sections methodically. (awakeningtoreality.com)
It is advisable and important to also find a good awakened teacher/mentor (online or locally). This page has some recommendations and advises: Finding an Awakened Spiritual Teacher and Mentor. (awakeningtoreality.com)
On attainments: what ends saṁsāra vs. what begins the path of seeing
You asked which level “gets you out of samsara.” Using our ATR/Thusness language as a cross-walk to classical milestones:
  • Initial realization of Thusness Stages 5→7 (clear anattā through to Maha/Total Exertion and twofold emptiness) corresponds roughly to stream-entry / first bhūmi—the start of the path of seeing, not the finish line. It’s profound, but it is not liberation from cyclic existence. See: Buddhahood: The End of All Emotional/Mental Afflictions and Knowledge Obscurations and Awakening to Reality: Meaning of Stream-Entry. However, someone who has attained stream entry or the first bhumi puts an end to the possibility of rebirth in the lower realms or the planes of deprivation: only rebirths in human and deva [celestial] realms become possible from that point onwards. On the different planes of existences, see https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
  • Liberation from compelled rebirth (no more saṁsāric cycling) corresponds to something like arahantship in the Sravaka path or, on the Bodhisattva path, eighth bhūmi (Acalā) and above—where afflictive obscurations are exhausted and emanations are free, not compelled. (Mahāyāna frames full Buddhahood as non-abiding nirvāṇa.) (The Wisdom Experience)
  • For the end-point: Buddhahood = the end of all emotional/mental afflictions and (later) the cognitive/knowledge obscurations. That is well beyond first bhūmi; it’s why steady meditation and integration after insight are indispensable. (See ATR discussions and index pages referencing “Buddhahood: The End of All Emotional/Mental Afflictions and Knowledge Obscurations.”) (awakeningtoreality.com)
Multiverse & motivation (very briefly)
Even if eternal-inflation multiverses exist, your mindstream is conventionally distinct and different from other mindstreams. Buddhist practice targets causes (ignorance/clinging) for suffering and cyclic rebirth in this stream: when those cease, compelled rebirth ceases, full stop. Cosmology doesn’t change that task. What will change your life is exactly the two steps above—daily sit + self-enquiry, guided by the ATR Practice Guide, with feedback from a qualified teacher. (awakeningtoreality.com)
Liberation is permanent: once liberated, you cannot become ‘un-liberated’ again. Your mindstream is liberated from that point onwards. It then becomes possible for you to genuinely help other mindstreams in this universe and the others attain the same awakening.
On the permanency of liberation, see what krodha [Kyle Dixon] wrote:
“Author: krodha
Date: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:50 pm
Title: Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind
Content:
Mere recognition of vidyā is initially unstable because karmic propensities have not been completely exhausted, buddhahood is not one's mere recognition of vidyā though, buddhahood is the result.
Any propensities which have the potential for re-arising on the path are exhausted in buddhahood, and so the result therefore said to be irreversible. Buddhahood is described as a cessation, and what ceases is cause for the further arising and proliferation of delusion regarding the nature of phenomena.
For this reason, nirvana is said to be 'permanent', because due to the exhaustion of cause for the further proliferation of samsara, samsara no longer has any way to arise. However nirvana is also a conventional designation which is only relevant in relation to the delusion of samsara which has been exhausted, and so nirvana is nothing real that exists in itself either. Neither samsara nor nirvana can be found outside of the mind.
As Nāgārjuna states:
"Neither samsara nor nirvana exist;
instead, nirvana is the thorough knowledge of samsara"
Tsele Natsok Rangdrol states:
"You might ask, 'Why wouldn't confusion reoccur as before, after... [liberation has occured]?" This is because no basis [foundation] exists for its re-arising. Samantabhadra's liberation into the ground itself and the yogi liberated through practicing the path are both devoid of any basis [foundation] for reverting back to becoming a cause, just like a person who has recovered from a plague or the fruit of the se tree."
He then states that the se tree is a particular tree which is poisonous to touch, causing blisters and swelling. However once recovered, one is then immune.
Lopon Tenzin Namdak also explains this principle of immunity:
“Anyone who follows the teachings of the Buddhas will most likely attain results and purify negative karmic causes. Then that person will be like a man who has caught smallpox in the past; he will never catch it again because he is immune. The sickness of Samsara will never come back. And this is the purpose of following the teachings."
—- Source: Dharmawheel Scrapper’s Compilation of Krodha’s Posts https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2023/05/table-of-contents-for-malcolm.html ”



With metta,
Soh


--- 

Q: I'm from Malaysia and am having difficulty finding a realized practitioner for guidance. I've tried to contact Master Chi Chen (who is extremely busy) and explored other centers (Kuan Yin Chan Lin, a yoga master in KL), but I can't find an available, accomplished teacher. Do you know of any gurus or practitioners I could seek guidance from, either in Malaysia or Singapore?

Soh's reply:

It’s true what you’re seeing: genuinely awakened, accessible teachers who can point directly are rare. The ones who are genuinely deep are usually, as you noted, "extremely busy."

That said, it’s still very important to make the effort to attend their teachings and retreats in person whenever possible. Even if they cannot sit down for long 1-on-1 guidance, a few days of direct pointing in a retreat "container" can save you years of wandering.

A) Malaysia — Ven. Chi Chern (继程法师), Ipoh

You are correct, he is a senior and deeply respected Chan master with very deep insights and awakening. My strong recommendation is to keep trying. The error is often in trying to get a personal meeting, which is difficult. The correct approach is to sign up and go for his Chan retreats (like a 禅七 or 7-day intensive) when they open.

Retreat containers are where genuine transmission happens. Don’t give up just because the admin gatekeepers are slow or hard to reach—that’s very normal. Just get your name on the list and show up.

Here are the primary links for his center (CCMATI / 慧灯禅修道场). Please watch these for announcements:

B) Taiwan — Zen Master Hong Wen-Liang (洪文亮)

If you can travel, I very highly recommend 洪文亮老师 in Taichung, Taiwan. He teaches from deep insights/awakening and leads retreats with a very direct pointing to the nature of mind (often in a Shikantaza or "just sitting" style).

You can read about a recent retreat here:

His sangha actually has a community in Kuala Lumpur. However, I still suggest attending at his main center in Taichung first, if you can, to receive the pointing in its "native environment." Being in the main field with the root teacher matters.

In short:

  • Please don’t give up on Ven. 继程法师’s retreats in Ipoh.

  • Please seriously consider going to Taichung to sit with 洪文亮老师.

  • Awakened teachers are rare. It is absolutely worth traveling and arranging your schedule around them.

C) Online teachers

You can also receive teachings regularly from online teachers who are awakened. Read https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/01/finding-awakened-spiritual-teacher-and.html for my recommendations.

Q: I've dabbled in Advaita, Zen, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen but have felt like a 'ship without a rudder.' Your website has been a 'gem' and an 'anchor' for me. I have a core set of questions about practice:

  • (a) A Zen practitioner told me Advaita Self-Inquiry and Zen's Hua-Tou are the same. If so, why does Zen emphasize 'Great Doubt' while Advaita doesn't seem to?

  • (b) If they aren't the same, are their mechanisms different? Zen seems abrupt and fierce, while Advaita is quiet and subtle. If enlightenment is a "shift" in perspective (like the Necker cube), what is the underlying mechanism in these practices that induces this shift?

  • (c) Does this same working principle apply to other tools like Shikantaza, Neti-neti, or 'awareness of being aware'? What is the KEY to all these awakening tools?

I admit I have an academic's 'disease' of needing to know how things work, but I feel understanding the core principles would help my practice.

Soh's reply:

Dear KW,

Thank you for your warm and sincere message. I can feel the heart behind what you wrote — both the gratitude and also the real urgency to understand and awaken, not just collect ideas. That sincerity itself is already the most important condition.

I'm deeply moved that you find the website to be a "gem" that "anchors me and provides some sort of map." That is exactly why it exists, and I'm so glad it’s a support for you.

Let me respond in a few parts:

  • Teachers and Guidance (Malaysia & Regionally)

  • Your Core Questions (Advaita vs. Zen, "Great Doubt," and the "Flip")

  • A Note on Practice Attitude (The "Academic Disease")

  • Concrete Next Steps & Key Readings

(Soh's reply to the first point is in the previous answer. The reply below addresses the core questions.)

2. On Your Questions (Self-Inquiry, Hua Tou, and "Great Doubt")

This is the core of your email. Let me address your questions (a), (b), and (c) together.

You asked if Advaita Self-Inquiry and Zen's Hua-Tou are the same, why Zen emphasizes "Great Doubt," and how they induce the "flip" in perspective (like the Necker cube).

They Are Functionally the Same

At the entry point, yes, they are doing the same fundamental move.

Both are designed to turn attention 100% back onto the very sense of pure Subjectivity, instead of letting attention run out to objects, thoughts, or states.

  • Advaita: "Who am I?" / "To whom does this thought arise?"

  • Zen (Hua Tou): "Before your parents were born, what is your original face?" / "Who is dragging this corpse around?"

These are functionally identical pointers, to find out, discover, turn the light around upon the Source, the Self, the Beingness before words and before birth.

Why do I say “entry point?” Because there are different classes of koans. There are also classes of koans designed to trigger deeper levels of realizations. Read: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/03/zen-koans.html

Neti-Neti and Self-Enquiry

Self-inquiry (ātma-vicāra) and Hua Tou always goes with neti neti because the very method of asking “Who am I?” works by negating everything that can be objectified—body, sensations, roles, thoughts, even the “I-thought”—as “not this, not that,” until attention abides as the non-objectifiable knower/self.

This is exactly the Upaniṣadic logic: the Bṛhadāraṇyaka points out “sa eṣa neti nety ātmā… How could one know the Knower?”—hence the practice proceeds by exclusion of all knowns (neti-neti) rather than affirming any state or concept. Ramana Maharshi’s instruction to trace every arising—“To whom has this thought arisen?”—and let it fall away as not-I is that same negating movement in action, collapsing identification until only the witness/self stands revealed. For a fuller walkthrough, see my piece “Self-Enquiry, Neti-Neti, and the Process of Disidentification”: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2024/05/self-enquiry-neti-neti-and-process-of.html

Venerable Linji Yixuan said: "The four great elements do not know how to preach Dharma or listen to Dharma. The spleen, stomach, liver, and gallbladder do not know how to preach Dharma or listen to Dharma. Empty space does not know how to preach Dharma or listen to Dharma. Now tell me, what is it that knows how to preach Dharma and listen to Dharma?" - https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2025/05/samadhi-of-treasury-of-luminosity.html , https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2025/06/a-practitioners-reflection-on-komyozo.html

Why "Great Doubt" vs. "Quiet Inquiry"?

This is a difference in rhetoric, not in engine.

"Great Doubt" (大疑情) in Zen is not ordinary skeptical doubt. It is the alive, burning, urgent NEED-TO-KNOW what Reality, what Self is. It is a whole-body-mind intensity.

In Advaita, that exact same intensity is simply called earnestness (mumukṣutva) or the fire of inquiry.

Without this burning urgency, Zen practice becomes a dead, intellectual riddle, and Advaita practice becomes dry, conceptual affirmation ("I am Awareness"). Both are useless without the fire.

These two quotes capture this essential energy perfectly:

John Daido Loori (Zen):

Great Faith, Great Doubt

On the pull between faith and doubt that can spark awakening

  • by a Zen teacher

    Most of the work in Zen practice takes place while sitting zazen

    because, in reality,

    there’s nothing anyone can give us.

    There’s nothing that we lack;

    each one of us is perfect and complete.

    That’s why it is said that

    there are no Zen teachers and nothing to teach.

    But this truth must be realized by each one of us.

Great faith, great doubt, and great determination

are three essentials for that realization.

Great faith is the boundless faith in oneself and

in one's ability to realize oneself and make oneself free;

great doubt is the deep and penetrating doubt that asks:

Who am I?

What is life?

What is truth?

What is God?

What is reality?

Great faith and great doubt are in dynamic tension with each other;

they work to provide the real cutting edge of koan practice.

When great faith and great doubt are also accompanied by great determination --

the determination of “seven times knocked down, eight times up” --

we have at our disposal the power necessary

to break through our delusive way of thinking

and realize the full potential of our lives.

~ John Daido Loori

Adyashanti (Non-dual):

"We think it's all about like, again, because of our modern mind, we almost think everything can be solved through some sort of technology. Right, oh, I just need to do it different, there must be some secret trick to inquiry, that's our technological mind-set. Sometimes that's a mindset that is very useful to us. But, we don't want to let that dominate our spirituality. Because as I witnessed, the intensity of the living inquiry that's more important than all the techniques.

When somebody Just Has To Know. Even if that's kind of driving them half crazy for a while. And, that attitude is as important or more important than all the ways we work with that attitude, you know, the spiritual practices, the meditations and various inquiries and various different things, sort of practices. If we engage in the practices because they are practices, you know like, ok I just do these because this is what I'm told to do, and hopefully it will have some good effect. That's different than being engaged, when you're actually being deeply interested in what you're inquiring about, and what you're actually meditating upon. It's that quality of real, actual interest, something even more than interest. It is a kind of compulsion, I know I was saying earlier don't get taken in by compulsion, but there is/can be a kind of compulsion. And that's as valuable as anything else going on in you, actually."

The "Flip" Is Not the End (This is Crucial)

Your Necker cube metaphor is excellent for this initial breakthrough.

This "flip" is often the direct, undeniable realization of pure Presence / "I AM" / "Original Face." It is what my teacher John Tan calls Thusness Stage 1.

BUT—and this is vital—this is not the final liberation in Buddhadharma. Advaita often stops here, reifying this "I AM" as the ultimate, capital-S Self or Brahman. (Or, the insight matures but stops at the substantialist nondual phase, i.e. Thusness Stage 4).

Buddhist insight, goes further to see that this "I AM Presence" is also empty of inherent existence (Anattā).

John Tan wrote a key clarification on this:

“Be it Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana; be it Dzogchen, Mahamudra or Zen; they do not deviate from the definitive view of the 3 universal characteristics of dharma. Therefore experiences and realizations must always be authenticated with right view, otherwise we end in wonderland that is neither here nor there.

The "who am I" of Advaita and "before birth who am I" may have the same initial "realization" -- the face to face direct authentication of one's original face, and followed by a series of similar mind-shaking experiences but when subject to Madhyamika ultimate analysis, they fall short of the prajna that Buddhism is talking about. Therefore keep the realization but refine the view.” – John Tan, 2020, to someone at the I AM phase

In other words:

  • Flip 1 (The "I AM"): You "flip" from seeing yourself as a person/body/mind to realizing you are the timeless, luminous Presence prior to them.

  • Flip 2 (The "Anattā"): You then "flip" again, realizing this Presence was never a separate thing (a background Self or Witness). It is simply the luminous, empty nature of all appearances themselves. There is no center or agent, just the vivid, selfless radiant display.

  • There are further flips in between and after those two.

(c) Does this apply to Shikantaza, Neti-Neti, etc?

There are different ways to breakthrough, not all got to I AM by self-enquiry, although it is a direct path and many have taken this path. (Myself, John Tan, famous teachers like Ramana Maharshi, even Eckhart Tolle, and so on). Zen Master Hong Wen Liang does not teach or focus on Koan, his whole approach is centered on Shikantaza due to his Soto Zen background. I am not sure what Ven Chi Chern focuses on.

Some, like my friend Sim Pern Chong, reached I AM not through self-enquiry but through one-pointed meditation:

“Realization: "So, the I AM may be realised via one-pointed meditation and does not have to come from investigation?"

Simpo: "It depends. I know of people who meditate the entire life and still never reach I AM.

If you can bypass I AM phase and realise no-self (straight) is the best.. dun need to waste time like i did.

(Comments by Soh: “Regarding whether it is important to go through I AM realization or can we skip to anatta -- John Tan and I and Sim Pern Chong have had differing and evolving opinions about this over the years (I remember Sim Pern Chong saying he thinks people can skip it altogether, John also wondered if it is possible or advisable as certain AF people seem to have skipped it but experience luminosity), however after witnessing the progress of people it seems to us that those who went into anatta without the I AM realization tend to miss out the luminosity and intensity of luminosity. And then they will have to go through another phase. For those with I AM realization, the second stanza of anatta comes very easily, in fact the first aspect to become more apparent. Nowadays John and my opinion is that it is best to go through the I AM phase, then nondual and anatta..

There was also the worry that by leading people into the I AM, they can get stuck there. (As John Tan and Sim Pern Chong was stuck there for decades)

But I have shown that it is possible to progress rather quickly (in eight months) from I AM to anatta. So the being stuck is due to lack of right pointers and directions, not inherently an issue with I AM.” - Soh, 2020)

To help a bit, when you meditate by focusing on the breathe at the tip of the nose, do not think that you are meditating. How do i explain it... dun think that there is a person (you) meditating. Also, just be aware of the breathe.. don't breath deliberately.

Also, the posture is very important, the spine should preferably not be supported by a wall. A straight spine and neck posture will help. Perhap use a support to lift the buttock above the ground abit so that the buttock position is higher that the cross legs.

'I AM' will be experienced when the mind is not thinking about the past or the future or is having any kind of dreaming... but is abiding in the Present. Focusing on the breathe is a method to align the mind to the immediate Present moment.

There can be many ways to experience the I AM presence as long as the method can cut off grasping on the thoughts/content. When mind is detached from thoughts content, the only activities that is left is the automatic breathing action.

You can experience I AM while not meditating and with eyes open too. Simply look straight ahead into open space and relax. An open space or field will be more conducive to experiencing it under such condition.

May you experience pure awareness soon !"” – Sim Pern Chong shared this over a decade ago https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/09/a-compilation-of-simpos-writings.html .

But what I can say is, Self-Enquiry is a direct path to Self-Realization and it has worked very well for me and many others. But you will have to choose the practice and path you want to take.

An entry in my e-journal:

“16th October 2010

AEN,

I remember you said without practicing self-inquiry, it is impossible

to attain I AM stage. If this is true, how do you explain Michael

Langford's AWA method?

J

My reply:

It will lead to the I AM realization but will be a gradual path. Self inquiry is the direct path. Not long ago I had a conversation with Thusness about this:

AEN: btw what you think about what i said about kundalini?

Thusness: what did you say about kundalini?

AEN: i said kundalini related practices may lead to experience but for realization you need to do some kind of investigation like self inquiry or koan. i mean i told mikael that

Thusness: no, both can lead to realization, koan is just an instrument. imo when you practice into a state of total openness, purity and clarity, you will realize your non-dual luminous essence

AEN: oic.. but you also said experience and realization arent the same right

Thusness: it isn't the same, but you are not talking about that

AEN: what do you mean

Thusness: you are talking about kundalini and koan. you are not talking about experience and realization. koan leads you to direct realization

AEN: hmm but then you said practicing into a state of total openness, purity, clarity (state = experience?) you then realize nondual luminous essence

u mean the experience leads to realization?

AEN: oic

Thusness: kundalini leads you differently... you would have to go through the path. they too lead to realization of Self ultimately, however the path is different. it is like (the difference between) gradual path and direct path

AEN: oic..

AEN: when you said 'practicing into a state of total openness, purity and clarity' you’re refering to kundalini practice?

Thusness: yeah...all aim to reach such a state, where the Self is realized by kundalini, opening of charkas, by micro and macroscopic orbit of chi

AEN: ic..

Thusness: when you practice bringing to the foreground, you will also experienced complete and full integration of energy. you may then focus on energy...

AEN: oic.. the energy is the same as chi?

Thusness: i do not know. i am not a chi gong master. go step by step...bring your experience to the foreground first... do not think you can fully understand no-self or have experienced the breadth and depth of no-self. it is not like what the AF ppl think, it is not in logic. When you are able to experienced fully and opening whatever arises without the sense of Self/self, it is different.

AEN: icic.. btw you said by practicing openness, purity, clarity, it will lead to the realization... does that mean prolonged experience will eventually result in realization?

Thusness: it is not that... your question is too naïve. you are disregarding the entire path of practice. you are not knowing the purpose of that particular path of practice, what is the purpose of awakening the kundalini. have you gone into it before you asked?

AEN: im not sure... jax said it's very effective in bringing one to the experience of ego dissolution quickly so that you can know your luminous nature

Thusness: what are you asking now? are you asking about koan or kundalini or what?

AEN: kundalini

Thusness: so you must study kundalini, how does awakening of kundalini lead to Self-Realization? it is the same as koan, except that it is by way of awakening the magic serpent in this case. you do not need to penetrate by way of koan, koan might not suit everyone. if you ask your mum, it might be more suitable to do chanting or even kundalini practice, but she would have to know the purpose of practice

AEN: icic..

Thusness: much like your grandmaster teach you 觉照 (awareness illuminates), same like teaching awareness of awareness. if you practice until there is total practice openness, pure like a mirror, spaciousness and luminous...if you stabilized these experiences, you will realized. but your experience and realization will be very stable, not like direct path of realization, the strength is not there.

AEN: oic..

AEN: same for kundalini? will the experience be stable?

Thusness: yeah...because they start from there opening gate by gate

AEN: ic.. ya i remember, the one who taught awareness watching awareness practice, michael langford, he practice 2 to 12 hours of AWA practice everyday for almost 2 years... and then he achieved something like eternal bliss or liberation or something but it sounded like he has a very very stable experience plus realization through that practice alone

Thusness: yes. i have told you once you realized, you are guided by what?

AEN: realization?

Thusness: you have not read what i told u

AEN: you said sincerity and realization

Thusness: the top part

AEN: oh the taste of a pure, original, primordial, non-conceptual and non-dual luminous state of existence

Thusness: yes. isn't that an experience? i have said i do not like to differentiate but it is just to bring out this point, so you might stablize your experience of mirror like clarity, you practice non-conceptuality and stabilized it. you practice purity of intention till you deconstruct personality

AEN: oic..means after realization, one must work to stabilize those experiences?

Thusness: you can, and indirectly yes. but you can also do by further refining your realizations. like bringing this experience to the foreground, and then you realized anatta, and then emptiness and self-liberation

AEN: oic..

Thusness: foreground practice becomes very important to you now. Now if you were to practice bringing this experience to the foreground, what will you realized?

AEN: non dual?

Thusness: how come?

AEN: bcos one experiences one taste in all experiences

Thusness: no good

AEN: there is no subject-object division in all experiences?

Thusness: i want you to experience directly. whatever i tell you will only prevent you from experiencing directly

AEN: there is no inside and outside, subject and object division in direct experience of sound, seeing, taste, etc

Thusness: yes. You challenge 'inside/outside', boundaries, arising and ceasing... one by one. you must come to several important direct realization. what did richard teach the AF practitioners? what is the question he told all to focus?

AEN: how am i experiencing this moment of being alive?

Thusness: yes. how is this different from bringing the experience to the foreground?anything special?

AEN: i think 'being alive' can mean background or foreground depending on context of it being said

Thusness: you have already experienced the background, the AF are not interested in the background. if i ask 2 +3 = ?, then i ask 3 + 2 = ? and you can answer the first question but not the second, what does it prove?

AEN: that i dunnu maths? lol

Thusness: means you are not clear, you merely memorized

AEN: ic.. ya

Thusness: you do not realize. if you realized, then do you think 2 + 3 is very different from 3 + 2?

AEN: no

Thusness: same applies to the what I asked you above.

AEN: oic..

3. A Note on Practice Attitude (The "Academic Disease")

You were very honest about your "profession's 'disease'" of intellectual obsession. Please be careful here, as this is the primary trap.

I made exactly that mistake early on (in 2008). I intellectualized and pondered upon the mechanics of the hua tou / "Who am I?", hoping to "get it right". John Tan warned me very bluntly that this is still indirect. I was circling around meanings instead of directly touching the immediate, wordless fact of Being.

The koan / hua tou is not asking for a conceptual answer. It’s forcing you into naked immediacy of your own Beingness, right now.

" Session Start: Friday, April 04, 2008

(1:24 AM) AEN: btw 'I AM' cannot be sought rite... since its not an object of observation... one can only let go of identification with all objects and simply rest in the empty witness

(3:27 AM) AEN: the koan leads to a presence before body and mind rite

(4:02 AM) AEN: btw u busy these days?

(4:03 AM) AEN: when one experience I AM one simply surrenders to it rite.. like the feeling of life and the expression of life through form

(8:24 AM) Thusness: Yeah...very busy these days. What u said about I am is correct. The purpose of that Koan is more than that. U r still trying to find out the purpose. U must be aware that whatever u r doing now is still indirect. U r trying to find out meaning of koan, u r still relating. This is the tendency. U r unable to 'touch' directly and intuitively. "

…

“Hi Mr. H,

In addition to what you wrote, I hope to convey another dimension of Presence to you. That is Encountering Presence in its first impression, unadulterated and full blown in stillness.

So after reading it, just feel it with your entire body-mind and forgot about it. Don't let it corrupt your mind.😝

Presence, Awareness, Beingness, Isness are all synonyms. There can be all sorts of definitions but all these are not the path to it. The path to it must be non-conceptual and direct. This is the only way.

When contemplating the koan "before birth who am I", the thinking mind attempts to seek into it's memory bank for similar experiences to get an answer. This is how the thinking mind works - compare, categorize and measure in order to understand.

However, when we encounter such a koan, the mind reaches its limit when it tries to penetrate its own depth with no answer. There will come a time when the mind exhausts itself and come to a complete standstill and from that stillness comes an earthshaking BAM!

I. Just I.

Before birth this I, a thousand years ago this I, a thousand later this I. I AM I.

It is without any arbitrary thoughts, any comparisons. It fully authenticates it's own clarity, it's own existence, ITSELF in clean, pure, direct non-conceptuality. No why, no because.

Just ITSELF in stillness nothing else.

Intuit the vipassana and the samantha. Intuit the total exertion and realization. The essence of message must be raw and uncontaminated by words.

Hope that helps!” - John Tan, 2019

4. Concrete Next Steps & Key Readings

Based on everything you've shared, here is a "curriculum." Please read these in full.

I'm very happy you reached out. Stay with this. Your sincerity is the real fuel. Put yourself in front of the real fire (and on a retreat cushion), not only in front of words.

With deep gratitude and encouragement,

Soh

Labels: , 0 comments | | edit post