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Someone asked, "hello, what would treating rebirth seriously mean? lol concerning one of your last shares"
Soh replied with quotes from Malcolm since that guys attended his teachings,
means take karma seriously and practice to overcome cyclic rebirth. otherwise whats the impetus to practice
like malcolm said months back "And I know many people in the community who don’t accept rebirth. It’s hard for me to understand their interest in the teachings, but somehow it benefits them."
"Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point. That’s why it is mentioned over and over again in the 17 tantras, etc.
Further, in Buddhadharma, there is no idea of some entity traveling through dimensions, but there is an idea of serial continuity between this life and the next.
In fact, most Dzogchen practitioners attain their awakening in the bardo, after mind and body separate. It is for this reason such extensive teachings exist on the signs of death, and so on, and what the experience of the death and bardo process entails.
In fact, without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice."
"The point of dharma is liberation, freedom from afflictions that cause rebirth, not meditation."
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/11r3a0t/comment/jc6wzm3/?context=3
Why is rebirth bad? I mean if I awaken what do I gain? Isn't basically non-existence?
I'd rather just keep on being reborn, I don't see a problem, its pretty cool
I love life, why are you guys so nihilistic?
Buddhists are not nihilists nor are we life-denying. But we are realists. Life is pretty cool for most wealthy Westerners living deva-like existences, like living in heaven on earth. It won't be cool if you're a starving African child or dying from malaria or some other painful diseases or disasters. It would be naive to use our fortunate circumstances as the main standard to judge how life is like for the zillions of other sentient beings, not just humans, but the antelopes being eaten by the lion, the countless ants living, we don't understand their suffering while enjoying good food and air conditioning and electricity while surfing internet on reddit. Life is certainly not 'cool' for most people beyond your fortunate circle of friends and family.
Buddhas' mindstreams do not cease to manifest out of compassion according to Mahayana and Vajrayana teachings, but it's not because they return as "life is cool", they return to help suffering sentient beings attain liberation. If your aim is Buddhahood, it does not entail the cessation of mindstreams. It does however include the end of uncontrolled cyclic rebirth, the kind of rebirths where you don't even know if you will be reborn in hell or heaven or in between in the next life, swept by the currents of karma in an ocean of suffering.
Also, deva realms are transient in Buddhism, you can be reborn in any one of the celestial realms and live for millions or billions of years but end of cycling back in samsara. See
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html on the 31 planes of existences in samsara.
From the grand scheme of things, pleasures are transient, but we have undergone enormous sufferings in the countless cycles of being reborn in samsara. And chasing for a higher existence (that is transient) is not a long term solution at all to this fundamental existential issue.
Also, this is a teaching by Buddha:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.013.than.html
SN 15.13 PTS: S ii 187 CDB i 658
Timsa Sutta: Thirty
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2009
X
The updated version is freely available at
This version of the text might be out of date. Please click here for more information
Now on that occasion the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty monks from Pava — all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters — went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.
Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, "These thirty monks from Pava... are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from fermentations?"
So he addressed the monks: "Monks."
"Yes, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?"
"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans."
"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.
"This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.
"The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations.
See also: SN 15.3.
I dunno man, I am Here Now, how do you I know the past has existed?
How do I know any mind aside from my mind exists?
Whatever is in front of me is what is Real, anything else is imaginary
But if what you say is actually true then yes maybe I'd want to awaken but awaken to what? To Heaven?
I've also had psychedelic experiences where I felt I was God imagining this world, so i dont think its all that bad, i mean if it gets bad, just die
Solipsism is refuted in Buddhism and upon investigation. You realise minds (plural) are aggregates, is not some singular entity behind everything. Both a solipsistic individual mind (only the personal 'I' exist and no one elses'/sollipsism) or universal mind (throughout the universe only one self exists in all beings like Advaita Vedanta) is seen through in realising anatman.
Buddhism is not a 'Here-Now' teaching as if only 'Here/Now' exists. We are a teaching of dependent origination, and dependent origination spans past-present-future, a single present manifestation is intricately linked to all the three times and ten directions, boundless and marvelous. A 'Total Exertion' is how Zen Master Dogen puts it. If you need a visual example, google search "Indra's Net".
Many practitioners I personally know, not just my mentor, have recalled their past lives and traced their karma in deep meditation. It is even possible to recall past lives in some of the stronger psychedelics like ayahuasca, but all the practitioners I know recalled it through their deep meditation practice and samadhi state. They were able to recall with great details and clarity and know how specific events and persons in their lives were linked to their past lives. Those who had such experiences take karma more seriously. It's very interesting to say the least.
2006 conversation with my mentor Thusness/John:
(11:44 AM) John: there is another danger about just having the experience of our luminosity and anatta without placing emphasis on our emptiness nature.
(11:44 AM) John: life becomes just a manifestation of the divine
(11:44 AM) John: and the divine becomes like damn great...
(11:44 AM) AEN: oic..
(11:44 AM) John: actually the divine cannot do anything...lol
(11:44 AM) John: that is why there is never an 'I'. :P
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:45 AM) John: and action is karma.
(11:45 AM) AEN: oic
(11:45 AM) John: and unwholesome action results in suffering
(11:45 AM) John: this must be known
(11:45 AM) AEN: icic..
(11:46 AM) John: i think this will gradually evolve and unfold.
(11:46 AM) AEN: oic
(11:46 AM) AEN: u mean karma?
(11:47 AM) John: yeah....but experiencing it
"Many secular Buddhists ignore karma and rebirth. But being a traditional Buddhist, and because not only Buddha but many practitioners, even a number in the AtR community had actually recalled and traced their past lives and karma in meditation, it is safe to say that we have to take it seriously.
Shared this excerpt from Buddha recently,
“We should take karma more seriously.
Excerpts from https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN36.html
Buddha:
“When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two… five, ten… fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: ‘There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.’ Thus I recollected my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
“This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose—as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
“When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw—by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human—beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma:
‘These beings—who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views—with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. But these beings—who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views—with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in a good destinations, a heavenly world.’ Thus—by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human—I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
“This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose—as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
“When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental effluents. I discerned, as it had come to be, that ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress… These are effluents… This is the origination of effluents… This is the cessation of effluents… This is the way leading to the cessation of effluents.’ My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the effluent of sensuality, released from the effluent of becoming, released from the effluent of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, ‘Released.’ I discerned that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’
“This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose—as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.”"
those who are still not yet fully awakened and liberated will cycle in rebirths uncontrollably depending on their wholesome/unwholesome karma/actions in the 31 planes of existence https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
awaken to what? To Heaven?
Suchness. Then you continue to manifest, emanate, help suffering beings.
At Kāḷaka’s Park
Kāḷaka Sutta (AN 4:24)
NAVIGATIONSuttas/AN/4:24
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāketa in Kāḷaka’s park. There he addressed the monks: “Monks!”
“Yes, lord,” the monks responded to him.
The Blessed One said: “Monks, whatever in this world with its devas, Māras & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, its rulers & commonfolk, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That do I know. Whatever in this world with its devas, Māras & Brahmās, in this generation with its contemplatives & brahmans, its rulers & commonfolk, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: That I directly know. That has been realized by the Tathāgata, but in the Tathāgata1 it has not been established.
“If I were to say, ‘I don’t know whatever in this world… is seen, heard, sensed, cognized… pondered by the intellect,’ that would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say, ‘I both know and don’t know whatever in this world… is seen, heard, sensed, cognized… pondered by the intellect,’ that would be just the same. If I were to say, ‘I neither know nor don’t know whatever in this world… is seen, heard, sensed, cognized… pondered by the intellect,’ that would be a fault in me.
“Thus, monks, the Tathāgata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn’t suppose an (object as) seen. He doesn’t suppose an unseen. He doesn’t suppose an (object) to-be-seen. He doesn’t suppose a seer.
“When hearing.…
“When sensing.…
“When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn’t suppose an (object as) cognized. He doesn’t suppose an uncognized. He doesn’t suppose an (object) to-be-cognized. He doesn’t suppose a cognizer.
Thus, monks, the Tathāgata—being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized—is ‘Such.’2 And I tell you: There is no other ‘Such’ higher or more sublime.
“Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such—among the self-fettered—
would not further claim to be true or even false.
“Having seen well in advance that arrow
where generations are fastened & hung
—‘I know, I see, that’s just how it is!’—
there’s nothing of the Tathāgata fastened.”
Note
Reading tathāgate with the Thai edition.
Such (tādin): An adjective applied to the mind of one who has attained the goal. It indicates that the mind “is what it is”—indescribable but not subject to change or alteration.
See also: MN 1; MN 63; MN 72; SN 22:85–86; AN 6:43; AN 10:81; AN 10:93—96; Ud 1:10; Iti 112; Sn 3:12; Sn 4:3; Sn 4:8; Sn 4:13; Sn 5:6
